Good read on Jones & Darnold thus far

my impression is that most people wanted a QB (split amongst 'any QB' and an assortment of 'I want QB X') or SB.

But, there were other groups that wanted different specific players and/or a trade down.

Yes, a lot more people are vocal now about we shoulda traded down, but a lot of people were calling for a trade down pre draft.

I wanted him at the time. My only concern was his mother acting as his agent, but clearly Baltimore handled that.

In comment 14655305 Go Terps said:

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I'm evaluating the decision, and the direction. Picking Barkley at #2 meant: - keeping Eli at QB (and the expense that came with that - $45M in cap space these two years) - doubling up at QB in '19 (money on Eli and a #6 on Jones) - not adding a premium pass rusher prospect in either draft (Chubb in '18 or Allen in '19 {had we resolved QB in '18}) Barkley is a fantastic player - I want to repeat that yet again for the people that think I'm criticizing him. But the decision to draft him (in tandem with keeping Eli when he should have been gone prior to '18) was a major factor in impeding the transition from Reese to whatever we are now, and in combination with the Shurmur hire the main reason '18 and '19 have been complete disasters. And here we are on the precipice of a 10-24ish start to the Gettleman era.

Those decisions on Manning should be viewed independently, though - and if we want to call them poor cap decisions, that's certainly fair. I won't argue that.

But - we still could have drafted Barkley without it needing to result in having Eli still here this year. Not cutting him after '17 didn't strike me as particularly awful; but they probably should have done it this year.

That said, several posters have correctly pointed out that the timeline complicated things a bit with the QB's. It's not revisionist history because many people were campaigning for NYG to do that at the time. But, I think the team was genuinely worried about getting caught with their tails between their legs if the draft didn't play out the way they wanted and viewed Eli as insurance that they wanted in place.

There's no way we were ever going to go with Kyle Lauletta as the starter. There are bad roster decisions, and unacceptable ones... the Giants really could not have started that guy. He would have been the worst starter in the league and it probably wouldn't have been particularly close.

I wanted Josh Allen @ 6 - I thought he was a run to the podium pick when he fell to us and I said that at the time. I also believed Daniel Jones could have been had @ 17... and after the smoke cleared, that became much less certain. The other problem here is we're again revising history and it means you have to take Dexter Lawrence (and DeAndre Baker) off the team. Is that swap worth it? I don't know.

I wanted to stack Barkley and Lamar Jackson in 2018. That was the plan I harped on a bunch of times and wanted to see here. An RPO heavy team with Jackson/Barkley and have them stack the shit out of the OL and completely dominate people on the ground and kill them with PA.

Barkley has been drafted, we can't go back and change that now. But, I believe a lot of the things I wanted to see with Jackson/Barkley can be done with Jones. And Jones is a better passer than Jackson.

So, what the Giants need to prioritize is building an offense that maximizes the RB. Right now, we have the wrong coach and the wrong offensive line. If Gettleman can actually FIX the offensive line... not just have it look better than pure garbage here and there - fix it... there really should be a point before Barkley/Jones' rookie deals are up where we can actually win football games. But, that's up to the higher ups to execute.

Come on already. These two years have been complete dogshit.

In comment 14655318 fkap said:

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my impression is that most people wanted a QB (split amongst 'any QB' and an assortment of 'I want QB X') or SB. But, there were other groups that wanted different specific players and/or a trade down. Yes, a lot more people are vocal now about we shoulda traded down, but a lot of people were calling for a trade down pre draft.

People call for trade downs every single year here. It's as tried and true as the sun rising in the East and setting in the West.

It takes two to tango. Sometimes those trade downs aren't always available or aren't advantageous. It's easy to keep saying the Giants should trade down... people do it every season.

you have a good idea of what a player is going to be. Yes, they're going to continue to improve, but you have a good inkling. IF Darnold continues to look bad, the odds are he's going to wash out. He might do well, but do you really want to hang on to a fading hope that he's a late bloomer?

Where you run into trouble is when played show signs of almost being good enough and you're faced with a choice of cutting bait or holding on and there's no good evidence either way.

In comment 14655323 Go Terps said:

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Come on already. These two years have been complete dogshit.

And how much of it was inherited vs caused by them? Yes it’s been a bad time for the team. But maybe it’s not an easy fix like we would have hoped. Would Lamar Jackson have been able to deal with the New York media? Who knows?

The timeline to move on from Eli could not have been more perfect in '18:

- financial out in his contract
- new GM
- new head coach
- QB class with four first rounders

The only sticking point was sentimentality and nostalgia. So we kept him around, went 5-13, and mercifully pulled the plug. All could and should have been able with just a little bit of foresight.

The results since speak for themselves.

.

I don't really disagree, I said several times I was okay with moving on from Manning after last year and that it felt like the right time... and I bet the GM and coach felt the same way.

The problem is that I don't think the owner did.

There was a sentimentality factor indeed - and it came from the man at the very top of the food chain. He wanted to give Eli the 'proper' sendoff after what happened in '17 and we tried to force a farewell tour onto a crappy football team that was going to be doing a lot of losing.

Decisions shouldn't be made that way.

That is true. We don't know what may or may not have been on the table. But DG had a massive woody for SB, so I would have doubts that he applied too much leather in peddling a deal. I wasn't in the room, though.

It was a year with a lot of coveted players though, so I would think it was a good year for potentially trading down.

He did - and the posters who have criticized him for not even entertaining offers have a legitimate gripe. It didn't seem like he had any intention of moving off Barkley no matter what was offered.

Ultimately, I was fine with Barkley - I still am. But, if you're not even listening to offers, you're only doing yourself a disservice. All it takes is one team to blow you away with an offer you can't refuse. I certainly would have felt a little better about the pick if Gettleman listened to offers and ultimately decided that Barkley was still his best bet. I'd rather have Barkley knowing that we explored all avenues before walking to the podium... I'm pretty sure Gettleman had the pick in within 10 seconds.

down would have been Nelson just to play armchair GM. However it takes two to tango and how far down would I have moved to guarantee I got him? Probably 5 because we all know the Colts were thirsty for Oline help. Did the Broncos want to give up a QB like haul for SB? These questions are easy in hindsight, and we have certain posters here that act like they have all the answers, but I don't blame DG one bit for staying put. If trading down was the cure to all ills, you wouldn't see anyone doing it because everyone would try to be doing it.

However, as difficult as it is to imagine, Darnold is probably in an even worse situation in terms of the players around him. It is still way too early to tell who is better between the two of them. Both have shown some flashes, but no real proof from either yet that they are going to be elite QBs.

With that said, even if Jones is better than Darnold, that in no way excuses the Barkley pick. With massive holes all over the field, squandering that asset on a running back will always be inexcusable. I don’t know why people insist on starting these threads constantly trying to recast this regime’s blundering, clueless personnel decisions as prescient in retrospect. Let’s just admit they have no idea what they’re doing and just hope they nonetheless lucked out with Jones. That’s all we got at this point (we’ll, that and Mr. Generational’s sick cuts in the 4th quarter down 20 and 97 Madden rating).

the best move would have been to draft Nelson #2 overall and go from there.

In comment 14655320 Go Terps said:

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I wanted him at the time. My only concern was his mother acting as his agent, but clearly Baltimore handled that.

Baltimore traded up in front of the Giants to nab Jackson. Where there's smoke there's fire? Could have been as big of a shock as the DJ8 pick this year.

In comment 14655305 Go Terps said:

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I'm evaluating the decision, and the direction. Picking Barkley at #2 meant: - keeping Eli at QB (and the expense that came with that - $45M in cap space these two years) - doubling up at QB in '19 (money on Eli and a #6 on Jones) - not adding a premium pass rusher prospect in either draft (Chubb in '18 or Allen in '19 {had we resolved QB in '18}) Barkley is a fantastic player - I want to repeat that yet again for the people that think I'm criticizing him. But the decision to draft him (in tandem with keeping Eli when he should have been gone prior to '18) was a major factor in impeding the transition from Reese to whatever we are now, and in combination with the Shurmur hire the main reason '18 and '19 have been complete disasters. And here we are on the precipice of a 10-24ish start to the Gettleman era.

The counterpoint is that regardless of who else they picked, I still think Gettleman and/or Shurmur ultimately fail to build/coach the team in such a way that would render that player into someone who contributes to wins.

That's almost certainly true. As I see it the crucial errors Gettleman committed rank like this:

1. Shurmur

2a. Retaining Eli in 2018
2b. Drafting Barkley

3a. Retaining Eli in 2019
3b. Signing Beckham

That's a lot of major errors in less than a year and a half. There have been others (Solder, Ogeltree), but those are the big ones.

In comment 14655309 AndyMilligan said:

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the best use of the 2018 #2 would have been to trade it for two firsts (from Buffalo?) and rafting Lamar Jackson and Nick Chubb.. If you don't think that is better than where we are at right now, you are not being honest with yourself..

I don't think Lamar Jackson is the answer. I think he will be found out against the better teams, i.e. the play-offs.

In comment 14655309 AndyMilligan said:

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the best use of the 2018 #2 would have been to trade it for two firsts (from Buffalo?) and rafting Lamar Jackson and Nick Chubb.. If you don't think that is better than where we are at right now, you are not being honest with yourself..

I'm not sure how you could say it's better than where we are right now when a big part of Jackson's game is predicated on running and the historical shelf life of quarterbacks had a similar playing pattern is shorter due to the higher risk of injury.

Yea Ok. The original poster ought to be shot. Darnold just torched Jones!!!

In comment 14654304 arcarsenal said:

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There's no way NYG were taking Nick Chubb @ 2. It was Barkley or a QB.

It was Chubb if not Barkley. Believe JonC told us that and I believe that was the story that came out later.

In comment 14674509 Mike Y said:

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Yea Ok. The original poster ought to be shot. Darnold just torched Jones!!!

Ummm...

Darnold just torched one of the worst defenses in the league. Jones also did.

there was no QB in their top 3.