I read about all the complaints about Gettleman, and I get it, he's arrogant and the results havent been good. But at least he's not sitting on his ass like Jerry Reese did. I dont remember Reese ever trying to upgrade the roster during the season, he drafted shitty players and kept them too long.
I'm starting to lose faith in Shurmur as a HC but to be honest the offense was pretty good in the second half last season and he's working with a rookie QB who has potential despite the awful turnovers. I dont know if he can ever have a winning season the NFL but i guess he'll get one more year. I cant see them firing a guy who is working with mostly first and second year players (esp on D)
But when is this freaking team going to start to turn it around? I mean enough of this shit already. When is it gonna fucking click? I'm so tired of this. I feel like i'm a realist, and i know what this team is. But they really should have and could have won the previous 2 games. We're staring 2-7 in the face here and I have to sit there again on Monday night and watch fans of an opposing team celebrate in our home stadium.
I really dont see how they are going to get enough players to add to this roster next year to have a magical turn around like the 49ers have done.
So yeah i'm basically writing off 2020 as well at this point.
Rant over
Quote:
The smart play was for a team in deep need of restructuring in many places not to make a very avg left tackle the highest paid player at his position.
DG didn't think smart or longer term and we are paying for it now...
...again, why are we always so concerned with the money? Can you name specific players we were unable to sign due to Solder's contract? It is all conjecture.
It sucks that Solder is not playing well. To me, that is the most important factor here.
Let's see how much we pay Eli to sit on the bench next season.
We could have signed Collins.
With another year added on past 30 plus an offseason surgery to deal with, I figured Solder was going to be a problem for immobile Eli but he is really getting our rookie hit far too often. And btw - his run blocking with Hernandez is kind of below average too.
not good...
We could have signed Collins.
Right... cue BBI the moment another TE has a good game against him... "we overpaid for a guy who cannot cover"
It does not matter what you do, the critics here find a way to twist it into a negative.
Quote:
If we did not sign a replacement for Flowers, we would be asking WTF is Gettleman doing? Plus, of Solder ended up on a team where the environment would allow him to play better than he has shown us thus far, DG would be criticized.
There were alternatives. Further, the team wasn't going anywhere anyways so "WTF are we doing" would have been silly anyways considering the team was so awful.
You had to take in the context that the team was going to suck anyways and they had ZERO good OLinemen at the time considering they were saying goodbye to their c and g.
****It's simple math and logic: ONE older decent to pretty good OL isn't going to do shit for an OL that is pathetic at the other 4 spots. Add in that the team is in rebuild so when you ultimately will get good- he will start to fade or maybe suck. The idea should be to accumulate quantity of players at the OL along with youth. At least if it's not quantity you should be getting YOUTH. Or if old you should be getting "cheap."
One older decent to pretty good player wasn't making a difference overall on a rebuilding team. To pay what they did vs getting two younger players makes sense- you go with 2 younger over one older. You need FIVE OLinemen - not ONE. Paying for one guy who wasn't all that great anyways who is older on a rebuilding team is idiotic.
Quote:
The smart play was for a team in deep need of restructuring in many places not to make a very avg left tackle the highest paid player at his position.
DG didn't think smart or longer term and we are paying for it now...
...again, why are we always so concerned with the money?
We're concerned with money because for the combination of Solder, Omameh and Stewart- you could've picked up two younger OL for the price of what ends up just being one in Solder.
TWO players -- and especially "YOUNG"- is better than one who is "old" for a rebuilding team.
Quote:
In comment 14658693 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
The smart play was for a team in deep need of restructuring in many places not to make a very avg left tackle the highest paid player at his position.
DG didn't think smart or longer term and we are paying for it now...
...again, why are we always so concerned with the money?
We're concerned with money because for the combination of Solder, Omameh and Stewart- you could've picked up two younger OL for the price of what ends up just being one in Solder.
TWO players -- and especially "YOUNG"- is better than one who is "old" for a rebuilding team.
I mean that's a great plan and all but what good young oline even hit FA? Norwell was the exception to the rule, they had cap issues. So I'm curious if you have specific names even in hindsight?
I think to this point DG has gotten more decisions right than wrong - especially the big ones.
Wow.
That says it all right there. I think the QB spot looks good as does the rb as does Lawrence. Everything else heading into next year imo is a huge question.
Ok so the #6 pick looks good. The #2 overall pick looks good. And the #17 pick looks good (which was the main piece of the beckham trade, which overall is looking good).
Would you agree those draft selections are probably the 3 most important decisions he's made and it looks like he got right? Because if so then I think we actually agree on more than you realize. Not all decisions have equal importance and whatever his worst move has been (I'd say the Ogletree trade) it paled in comparison to getting the 2 top 10 picks right.
Quote:
The smart play was for a team in deep need of restructuring in many places not to make a very avg left tackle the highest paid player at his position.
DG didn't think smart or longer term and we are paying for it now...
...again, why are we always so concerned with the money? Can you name specific players we were unable to sign due to Solder's contract? It is all conjecture.
It sucks that Solder is not playing well. To me, that is the most important factor here.
Let's see how much we pay Eli to sit on the bench next season.
It has nothing to do with who the Giants could have signed -- it has everything to do with a having a war chest and maximum flexibility to deal with any issue or opportunity that might arise.
All money not spent is money saved.
If the season ended today, four of the five team with the most cap space in 2020 are playoff teams.
They are good teams, with young cores. All of them have decisions to make to stay viable. Dallas and Indy have QB decisions. Buffalo and Houston need infusions of talent to be true championship contenders.
They have maximum flexibility to operate and to keep their own or shop more aggressively in the open market.
The reason they are in this position is because they have rolled money over and established big war chests as they developed into contenders.
Spending and sucking is the worst thing a team can do. There is literally zero upside.
Quote:
We should also acknowledge that probably no one here envisioned SF @ 8-0 at the midway point before this season started. I don't even recall much of anyone seeing the 49ers as a team that would win their division or be much of a factor in the NFC at all.
If anyone here saw them being as good as they've been so far in 2019 coming off their 2018, I'd certainly shake their hand on some outstanding foresight.
I wouldn't bet on NYG being in their shoes at this point next year, but I think it's also worth acknowledging that the general consensus around SF at this point last year probably wasn't a whole lot more favorable than what it is for NYG right now.
The 49ers were 1-7 @ the midway point last year. Even worse than our current 2-6.
Stop it. SF had players in place before Garappolo was lost for the year and wrecked their season. They had gone from 2-14 to 6-10 before winning 4 games when Garappolo got hurt so they had showed improvement. Note, they traded out of the first round after their 2-14 season and picked up three picks. They went through the roster and kept guys like Staley and Armstead. They traded for Garappolo and Tomlinson and snagged superstar TE Kittle in the 5th round. They signed Coleman and Alexander this year.
Gee, shrewd signings, good trades, good drafting and building on the roster. See any of that going on here?
Specific to the bolded part, I actually do see some of that. Golden has been a real good pickup, same age and a lot cheaper than Dee Ford. Ryan Connelly was looking like a real good player from the 5th round. Lawrence looks like a building block in a similar mold to the guys SF drafted in the years prior to Bosa. Leonard Williams could turn out to be another similar piece on the DL.
This 3rd offseason is going to be just as critical for DG as it was for John Lynch - who managed to add DPOY candidate Nick Bosa, the aforementioned Dee Ford, and spent big $ on Kwon Alexander. Unlike SF I'm not sure we have the right coaching staff in place, so that's another key decision DG needs to get right. If he doesn't I'm not sure he'll get a 4th offseason.
Quote:
In comment 14658706 EricJ said:
Quote:
In comment 14658693 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
The smart play was for a team in deep need of restructuring in many places not to make a very avg left tackle the highest paid player at his position.
DG didn't think smart or longer term and we are paying for it now...
...again, why are we always so concerned with the money?
We're concerned with money because for the combination of Solder, Omameh and Stewart- you could've picked up two younger OL for the price of what ends up just being one in Solder.
TWO players -- and especially "YOUNG"- is better than one who is "old" for a rebuilding team.
I mean that's a great plan and all but what good young oline even hit FA? Norwell was the exception to the rule, they had cap issues. So I'm curious if you have specific names even in hindsight?
But you don't need "stars/all-pros." As I've said in the past I wanted Hubbard, Fulton and if you recall SY was super-high on Braden Smith. That year I would've 1st tried Hubbard at LT. If that failed then Braden Smith. If these failed then how are those moves so atrocious vs what we have now?
The point is many over-exaggerate the point of "we had to make the Solder move." If you were going to suck anyways what difference does it make with your LT if you are sucking anyways? And he’s older! He isn't part of a rebuild! You didn’t need to “pin down” that LT position last year. Some people see anyways at this moment the team has so many holes why the desperation to start last year with an overpaid older LT who wasn’t that great anyways for such a lousy team? For what purpose? Why not TRY to get younger and get TWO decent enough players?
SO worst case scenario is that neither can be LT - the team sucks just like they have been the past two years but when you traded OBJ you could've maneuvered for a LT. Because Hubbard if he sucked at LT can play guard. SO can Braden Smith (but he's doing okay for Colts at RT). Smith and Hubbard are not only young but they play multiple positions. EVEN MORE VALUE FOR A REBUILDING TEAM! Hubbard doesn't have to be a star. Just decent enough. At worst guard he could've been that. The LT doesn’t have to be a star either. You don’t need All-Pro OL just guys good enough.
So when you trade OBJ - you get your LT. Please don’t tell me you couldn’t get a LT for OBJ. If you couldn’t get a LT directly from trading OBJ surely you could’ve gotten draft picks for OBJ then turned around and gotten your LT.
This is just one scenario I’ve always had. I’m sure others have others.
Spending and sucking is the worst thing a team can do. There is literally zero upside.
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life.
Sincerely
Dean Wormer
Quote:
In comment 14657383 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
that Eli was the starting QB during the DG tenure.
Why not? DG declared that reports of Eli's decline were hogwash, or mularkey, or some folksy synonym of bullshit. He made decisions based upon that belief. Shouldn't they be a part of his assessment?
After hiring Shurmur, this is the biggest reason Gettleman should be fired. He completely bungled quarterback. Threw away two seasons.
That is bullshit. What was the alternative? So they didn’t cut Eli get the fuck over the money already. If they cut Eli after 2017 they still suck today. They drafted a good looking qb in jones and that is the most important thing.
Cut Eli and spend more than half on a shittier vet option. Ok Great? And? What did THAT accomplish?
Money money money!!! Can’t stop talking about money!!! It’s all U got dude.
Eli Manning is #102 on a list of the things wrong with the giants this last decade. If they drafted well. If they didn’t fire TC and replace him with a stuffed over sized suit. If they had better injury luck.
But yes, Eli makes a lot of money. Low. Hanging. Fruit.
Add this one to the list of ridiculous and repeated fallacies to defend the bad resource management of this team the last 2 years.
Hopefully the sentimental days are behind ownership and/or management.
The giants are eating money if they cut Eli. And they would be paying the new vet qb money too. The big bad Eli contract and this panacea they cutting him is a myth. Some extra Money isn’t solving this mess we’re in. Time and drafting well might.
Add this one to the list of ridiculous and repeated fallacies to defend the bad resource management of this team the last 2 years.
Who said that?
Quote:
In no universe would a stop gap quarterback have cost 22M the last two years.
Add this one to the list of ridiculous and repeated fallacies to defend the bad resource management of this team the last 2 years.
Who said that?
Britt did
Having more money and using it on value-added players is all that matters...
Quote:
In comment 14659036 christian said:
Quote:
In no universe would a stop gap quarterback have cost 22M the last two years.
Add this one to the list of ridiculous and repeated fallacies to defend the bad resource management of this team the last 2 years.
Who said that?
Britt did
Bullshit.
1. I said Eli's dead money PLUS the cost of the new vet QB would put it in the ballpark.
2. Who cares what I said?
Cutting Manning after 2017 would have cost the Giants 12.4M in dead money and saved the Giants 33M over 2 years.
If they had cut him after the 2018 season the Giants would have had 6.2M in dead money and saved 17M.
The Giants paid Manning 45.4M over two years, and could have walked away for 33M in savings.
A guy like Teddy Bridgewater has made a total of 13.25M guaranteed the last 2 years.
A stop gap wasn't going to cost half of what Manning made nor half of what the Giants could have potentially saved.
Exact names please.
:-)
Cutting Manning after 2017 would have cost the Giants 12.4M in dead money and saved the Giants 33M over 2 years.
If they had cut him after the 2018 season the Giants would have had 6.2M in dead money and saved 17M.
The Giants paid Manning 45.4M over two years, and could have walked away for 33M in savings.
A guy like Teddy Bridgewater has made a total of 13.25M guaranteed the last 2 years.
A stop gap wasn't going to cost half of what Manning made nor half of what the Giants could have potentially saved.
yea.. the lengths to which people will twist themselves into pretzel shapes to justify keeping and paying Eli big money is strange. It is a little bit Stockholm Syndrome imo. We should have jettisoned Eli 3 years ago. What do you think BB would have done? That should be the North Star. Heck Kraft had to convince BB to keep Brady. Eli would have been gone three years ago.
TIA
Eli Manning is #102 on a list of the things wrong with the giants this last decade. If they drafted well. If they didn’t fire TC and replace him with a stuffed over sized suit. If they had better injury luck.
But yes, Eli makes a lot of money. Low. Hanging. Fruit.
Low hanging fruit indeed. And still being your reach.
The Chargers will likely give Rivers another contract.
They went after Norwell and offered him more money, he chose Jax. They went after Daryl Williams and offered him a bigger deal, he chose to stay in Carolina. They went after Deone Buchanon (who ended up getting cut any way) and he chose TB. They signed Golden Tate for $10m per year and everyone bitched. They signed Solder and we all know how that went. The most realistic positive usage I can think of is they would have been able to tag Collins. He has 0 ints this year and 2 passes defensed.
So despite the BBI myth of a plethora of Shaq Barretts out there leading the league in sacks and available on 1 year deals, it's far more likely whatever else they did with the money wouldn't have brought back that much return. FA in general produces far more Kareem Martins than Shaq Barretts. I'm not saying it wouldn't have been better to have more money to spend and bring in more FA's, but there needs to be some realism.
The Chargers will likely give Rivers another contract.
If LAC have any shot at Joe Burrow in the draft, they better take him.
Rivers is starting to look beat. This is the time to find his replacement.
right on cue...
No one actually. No one could have helped at all. This was the only choice(s) that made sense.
We will never win more games.
Having more money and using it on value-added players is all that matters...
Except it’s not that simple now is it. Yeah, we have more money, great, FA Reggie white isn’t just waltzing through that door.
It’s never that simple unless you’re a Monday morning gm on BBI. I didn’t hit my head, I’ve been watching the nfl closely for 40 years.
Cutting Eli in 2018 or 2019 isn’t saving jack fucking shit here. And to suggest otherwise and at the same time fire the GM for not exercising said move is way too convenient and easy. It’s all some of you have here. When in doubt, look at the money. This contract was an overpay and that one was too and how could this team be so stupid to overpay this guy and bla bla bla. Lazy, easy and convenient. Whatever works.
Draft well or die. Hire the right HC or die. When the right FA avails himself, be it your own or someone else’s, you pay and pray. Locker room distractions? Noise. Overpaying? They are all overpaid. Noise noise noise.
Would the giants be better off right now with Eli’s cap value off the books? Sure. But would it be a panacea? Not cutting Eli is reason enough to fire DG? Are you kidding me?
Get the fuck over the Eli situation already. Get over solder. We were desperate for a LT and signed a pro LT that checked off all the boxes. He’s making a lot of money. Deal with it. It you can’t see DG is building this team up with a bunch of good Young talent, including the young qb that 75% of you all fucking killed, you’re blind.
Only thing we need is time and maybe a HC.
Get the fuck over the Eli situation already. Get over solder. We were desperate for a LT and signed a pro LT that checked off all the boxes. He’s making a lot of money. Deal with it. It you can’t see DG is building this team up with a bunch of good Young talent, including the young qb that 75% of you all fucking killed, you’re blind.
Only thing we need is time and maybe a HC.
Oh, well that's a relief. Maybe we should have given all of our draft picks to lock up Leonard Williams since they aren't needed in your view either...
Gettleman needs to get better at the pro personnel side of this. Unless, he improves at this, this team ain’t going anywhere.
Gettleman needs to get better at the pro personnel side of this. Unless, he improves at this, this team ain’t going anywhere.
The worst part of it all being that this was supposed to be an area of strength for Gettleman, and it's the first thing he mentioned wanting to address when he walked in the door. He was touted for his ability to find under the radar OL talent.
Thus far, a bunch of FA money spent and literally nothing to show for it.
They went after Norwell and offered him more money, he chose Jax. They went after Daryl Williams and offered him a bigger deal, he chose to stay in Carolina. They went after Deone Buchanon (who ended up getting cut any way) and he chose TB. They signed Golden Tate for $10m per year and everyone bitched. They signed Solder and we all know how that went. The most realistic positive usage I can think of is they would have been able to tag Collins. He has 0 ints this year and 2 passes defensed.
So despite the BBI myth of a plethora of Shaq Barretts out there leading the league in sacks and available on 1 year deals, it's far more likely whatever else they did with the money wouldn't have brought back that much return. FA in general produces far more Kareem Martins than Shaq Barretts. I'm not saying it wouldn't have been better to have more money to spend and bring in more FA's, but there needs to be some realism.
We didn't even have to spend it - we could have banked it for next season's supposed FA portion of the rebuild. Or, wait for it, we could have avoided restructuring underachieving vets like Ellison and Solder and stopped the continued practice of borrowing cap space from future years.
We're not at the point where we even need to be thinking about who else we could have added - how about the extra cap space could have allowed us to actually properly correct the cap mismanagement once and for all?
I know that's a difficult thing for the apologists to understand, but it's a reality and a disadvantage.
Are you over Macho Grande?
Get the fuck over the Eli situation already. Get over solder. We were desperate for a LT and signed a pro LT that checked off all the boxes. He’s making a lot of money. Deal with it. It you can’t see DG is building this team up with a bunch of good Young talent, including the young qb that 75% of you all fucking killed, you’re blind.
Only thing we need is time and maybe a HC.
Nailed every pick? I appreciate the optimism, but can we be real here?
Did he nail the Lauletta pick? Can we say with any confidence yet that the McIntosh, Beal, Love, C. Slayton, Ballentine, or GAA picks were nailed?
It's really impossible to even have a discussion with you because you don't seem to live in the same reality as normal people do.
Get the fuck over the Eli situation already. Get over solder. We were desperate for a LT and signed a pro LT that checked off all the boxes. He’s making a lot of money. Deal with it. It you can’t see DG is building this team up with a bunch of good Young talent, including the young qb that 75% of you all fucking killed, you’re blind.
Only thing we need is time and maybe a HC.
What boxes did Solder check? They maybe got 8 good games out of him in year one. In year two he's been mediocre as well. Nonsense.
He tried to sign Norwell... He actually dodged a bullet here. Norwell has been a dumpster fire in Jacksonville
He signed Solder (30+ yo) to the largest contract for an OL in history. Solder was a dumpster fire in his 1st 8 games here as well as the the first 8 games this year. He's been so bad that they tried to trade him and found 0 takers.
He signed Omameh who he had cut 8 games into a 3 year contract.
He drafted 1 OL (Hernandez) in 2018, a draft chock full of OL talent.
He held onto Flowers as an RT, but had to cut him after 5 games.
He lucked into Jamon Brown, who wasn't great but he was competent, and could have been signed for a little more than for what Omameh was signed and he is MUCH better than Omameh.
He traded Vernon for Zeitler. Zeitler has been ok. I'm not sure that he has been a significant upgrade over Brown. Granted he has been playing hurt.
He drafted 1 OL in 2019... In the 7th round.
He signed Remmers (30+ yo coming off injury) who has not been good. At least its just 1 year.
He has stuck with Halapio at center...
This was supposed to be an expert on filling the OL. When he got here, the team needed new players at every OL position. To say that the position was on fire and a desperate need is the understatement of decade. It is arguable the 2nd most important position group on the team.
The only move that has worked out well is drafting Hernandez.
The next best move has been Zeitler who has been meh, but more importantly is the Vernon was traded for for him, when a viable candidate who wanted to stay could have been kept for a moderate deal and Vernon traded for an OC or RT. Overall, a lack of value was extracted from the available resources.
After that ever other move has been downright awful and ill-advised from the get go.
And the cherry on top is the fact that he has spent so little in the draft on such an important group that is such a need is fireable malfeasance all by itself. THere is absolutely 0 depth and nobody who is even worth developing right now. Its football criminal.
Quote:
In comment 14658626 Eric on Li said:
I think to this point DG has gotten more decisions right than wrong - especially the big ones.
Wow.
That says it all right there. I think the QB spot looks good as does the rb as does Lawrence. Everything else heading into next year imo is a huge question.
Ok so the #6 pick looks good. The #2 overall pick looks good. And the #17 pick looks good (which was the main piece of the beckham trade, which overall is looking good).
Would you agree those draft selections are probably the 3 most important decisions he's made and it looks like he got right? Because if so then I think we actually agree on more than you realize. Not all decisions have equal importance and whatever his worst move has been (I'd say the Ogletree trade) it paled in comparison to getting the 2 top 10 picks right.
Yes but as I stated on that other thread in which I felt you were trying to change the narrative. Whether you were or not is irrelevant. But it's the same here. You are not deliberately changing it but you aren't replying to the comment I posted to you originally on this thread. Sure you are correct I'm fine with with the 3 picks. But you said "MORE" than just the 3 picks. I replied to this comment from you--
I replied to the "totality" of your comment. Not just "the big ones." I mentioned SB and DJ and Lawrence were fine good picks. It's the other stuff--
From you: "I think to this point DG has gotten more decisions right than wrong - especially the big ones. I'm a lot more confident the talent to be a winning team will be on the roster by this time next year than I am that this is the right coaching staff however."
Let me just post to you an excerpt from eric's post in his preview of the next game. IMO this says it all vs what you are saying that DG has gotten it mostly right:
From eric: "Dave Gettleman and Company have been dreadful. In the past two years, they have signed Kareem Martin, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Curtis Riley, Cody Latimer, Connor Barwin, Jonathan Stewart, Nate Stupar, Antoine Bethea, Rod Smith, among many others already forgotten. . ."
I also don't get the vitiole aimed at Solder -- Solder is a decent player -- he's playing hurt right now. The left tackles playing before him were frikken healthy and they couldn't carry his boots - that's how bad this oline line was. There is every reason to believe that the Giants are going to continue to improve.
where did you hear he was playing hurt? What's his injury? It's now been two straight years he has been hurt. Other players are hurt and they don't stink to the degree that Solder has been. and if't is two straight years then it's a problem.
I don't get why you are comparing Solder to past players GMEN left tackles. I think more relevant is to ask if he is playing well. And he isn't --. And imo he isn't playing even "decent."
We'll just have to agree to disagree. SY and Eric also have been blasting him for poor play. And imo their comments are more in line with the season and not just 1 game. Thus what Flowers was previous to Solder imo irrelevant. More importantly, what is Solder as of right now? I think he is a subpar tackle in which the GMEN could have gotten much better value and more aligned with a rebuild type of team.
Quote:
Go ahead and extract your pound of flesh and fire DG. See how the next GM does. I guarantee you he isn’t nailing virtually every pick over two drafts like DG did.
Get the fuck over the Eli situation already. Get over solder. We were desperate for a LT and signed a pro LT that checked off all the boxes. He’s making a lot of money. Deal with it. It you can’t see DG is building this team up with a bunch of good Young talent, including the young qb that 75% of you all fucking killed, you’re blind.
Only thing we need is time and maybe a HC.
Nailed every pick? I appreciate the optimism, but can we be real here?
Did he nail the Lauletta pick? Can we say with any confidence yet that the McIntosh, Beal, Love, C. Slayton, Ballentine, or GAA picks were nailed?
It's really impossible to even have a discussion with you because you don't seem to live in the same reality as normal people do.
I've had the same encounters with the poster djm.
Good call.
Quote:
Is going to be a lot closer than many of you think
Good call.
He was right, I thought we'd lose by 20.
Thank God for the Bengals and Redskins, and hopefully over the course of the next few weeks, the Jets and Dolphins.