I read about all the complaints about Gettleman, and I get it, he's arrogant and the results havent been good. But at least he's not sitting on his ass like Jerry Reese did. I dont remember Reese ever trying to upgrade the roster during the season, he drafted shitty players and kept them too long.
I'm starting to lose faith in Shurmur as a HC but to be honest the offense was pretty good in the second half last season and he's working with a rookie QB who has potential despite the awful turnovers. I dont know if he can ever have a winning season the NFL but i guess he'll get one more year. I cant see them firing a guy who is working with mostly first and second year players (esp on D)
But when is this freaking team going to start to turn it around? I mean enough of this shit already. When is it gonna fucking click? I'm so tired of this. I feel like i'm a realist, and i know what this team is. But they really should have and could have won the previous 2 games. We're staring 2-7 in the face here and I have to sit there again on Monday night and watch fans of an opposing team celebrate in our home stadium.
I really dont see how they are going to get enough players to add to this roster next year to have a magical turn around like the 49ers have done.
So yeah i'm basically writing off 2020 as well at this point.
Rant over
Gettleman doesn't sit on his ass like Reese did? It's year 2 - aside from turning over some FAs, he's still got the same guys he's drafted there (sans for Lauletta, and I doubt you can say that's a good thing).
I'm not suggesting Gettleman should move on from his drafted players, just that the sample period isn't long enough to truly tell if there's a difference between the two. If Sam Beal is on this team and hasn't produced anything at the end of next year, have things really changed?
FA has produced nothing thus far. And they're giving up what will be a 3rd and a 4th to sign Leonard Williams to what will likely be a pretty hefty contract.
If that doesn't pan out - things aren't turning around any time soon.
Watching the Giants feels more like a job these days. It sucks.
Beating the bears with a back up QB last year? The texans before they found their groove? KC in 2017?
you probably have to go back to 2016 to get a real quality win.
just please please please win one of the next three against the cowboys or eagles
...with Mara making one bad decision after another.
Too many years of Jerry Reese; bad drafts; bad pro personnel decisions; hiring Pat Shurmur.
You name it.
But you think you're "sick and tired of losing?"
Just wait.
Once you get past that, then comes the apathy.
Another good draft this year will have us close, but man we need to hit on some FA players too!
1 playoff team in 8 years is painful
I'm hopeful next tear is better, cause if we have to reboot from Gettleman/Shumur after 2020... man we're gonna go 10+ years with 1 winning season? Holy Hell.
I am SO sick of not having a competitive defense. Outside of 2016, it has been nearly a decade of bottom of the league defensive units. Outside of the OL, the rest of this team's resources this offseason need to be poured into building up a sustainable championship defense.
Next year is make or break for all of the coaches and Dave Gettleman. The leash is growing shorter by the day, but with so much youth, they need to be given one more year to get all of the guys they want here and put a viable team together to compete. If not in 2020, it's never for this group.
I agree 100% with the OP premise. So sick of all of the losing.
Beating the bears with a back up QB last year? The texans before they found their groove? KC in 2017?
you probably have to go back to 2016 to get a real quality win.
just please please please win one of the next three against the cowboys or eagles
The losing really sucks - don't get me wrong - but it's not that that's bothering me.
It's the lack of any sign of life. Not talking about effort - talking about some flashes of ability and talent. Even on a shitty team, a few players usually stand out alone.
Jones has been great in this regard, although he started off hot and cooled off a bit. But the rest have been disappointing. Even Barkley, who has the talent but is banged up, hasn't been able to showcase anything individually. Slayton's probably the next on the list. And after that, aside from a play here or there, not much.
Or the terrible offensive line we have.
The line is a far bigger problem than the WR group.
For the last few years we've heard that our camp cuts would make other teams rosters (implication - we've fixed our drafting player acquisition problems) - didn't happen.
How many years does it take to fix an o-line.
How long before a connection is drawn between our inability to cover a TE - and don't get me fucking started on 3rd string TE who look like Pro-Bowlers when they play us - and our failure to get linebackers or safeties.
The thing that gets me. I was a little kid in 91 but I remember Ray Handley and how he was kicked out of town. His winning percentage in two years was .438 and Giant fans were livid at the mediocrity. In a season and a half Shurmur's record is .304 and the outrage is minimal.
Have we come to accept failure as long as we get success once a decade or so?
Yes, but he said the offense is close to complete, needing only to add a few lineman to make it complete. That's not true.
"Just numb to it"
Maybe from the alcohol after first qtrs of games ..that would do it! Lol
When you have to dig into FA for the most expensive positions year after year its a problem. OT and Pass Rushers need to be groomed and drafted early every year. If you look at our teams of the past, rounds 1-3 always brought us an influx of talent. Round 2 & 3 hit on some great pass rushers who were able to learn from a great pass rusher in front of them. Seems like we drafted a great pass rusher every year.
Barkley while he is a tremendous talent was the wrong pick for this team. RB is the least expensive spot to replace, RBs are always available in FA and they also can be found later in the draft. He has HOF talent but by the time this OL is fixed he will be a FA.
And this team has a ton of holes everywhere that won’t be easy to fill. Thats the sad thing- this roster probably needs 2 offseasons to do it.
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The line is a far bigger problem than the WR group.
Yes, but he said the offense is close to complete, needing only to add a few lineman to make it complete. That's not true.
The Giants have more than enough targets to field a good offense. Tate, Shepard, Engram, Slayton and Barkley are more than good enough to make this offense go if they add 2 more solid pieces to this OL.
Would I like a legit #1 WR, sure. That is not the end all be all to having a good offense though. The Pats, Ravens, Seahawks, Jaguars, and 49ers all field Top 10 offenses without a big time #1 WR. The Lions are 11th and they also do not have a legit #1.
If you can't win with the weapons we currently have on offense, it's a coaching issue, not a talent issue.
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The line is a far bigger problem than the WR group.
Yes, but he said the offense is close to complete, needing only to add a few lineman to make it complete. That's not true.
I think with an offensive line that is good, not 'adequate', but actually a strength - a pass catching group of Shepard, Slayton, Tate, and Engram (+ Barkley) is good enough to win games. Sure, a Michael Thomas type would probably take it from good to great - but I actually don't think the WR group is terrible right now when we're healthy.
The depth could certainly improve. But, would draft at least two offensive linemen before I even batted an eye @ the WR position.
The 49ers don't have a stud WR - they just acquired Sanders and he's their best one now. Still haven't lost a game. They play defense, run the football, and Jimmy G has made plays with his arm when he's needed to. Last night was probably the best game of his career. You don't need a top flight WR to be a good team. You just need some good ones and some reliable ones.
Exactly
Thus my point above about quality wins
The sperm recipients in the owners' box have followed virtually every prescription you "fans" and the sportswriters you all listen to wanted and the result is this train wreck- an expansion team. "Oh, it couldn't be worse." You are all finding out now that yes, indeed, it can be worse.
One stupid decision after another. This isn't getting fixed next year or the year after or the year after that. The team needs players, lots of players, and unless Gettleman hits the equivalent of power ball in the lottery and free agency, we are going to spin our wheels-spending resources to shore up positions where injury, Gettleman's seat-of-the-pants trades or free agency create new holes while trying to fix the holes the team started with. He's already admitted by his actions that he has mis-spent 1/3 of his draft picks and needs to spend more picks and dough on a decent defensive linemen.
This clear the cap stuff makes me laugh. You guys never want to pay our own players, but are all in for Gettleman, who has shown zippedy do dah acumen signing free agents, to go out and spend all this new cap money on free agents whose own teams decided they aren't worth it. Perfect. That way he can turn around and trade them to legit contenders after a season or two for more 5th round picks.
And Shurmur blows. Think on this; if he can go 6-10 some season, that record will represent his high water mark in victories as a HC. WTF is he doing here in the first place? He shouldn't have been hired and he should be shown the door at the end of this season. Won't happen though because the excuses will flow from the folks who are too invested in still another error and you guys will swallow those excuses hook, line and sinker.
So, enjoy it. Embrace the suck. Keep rooting for those vet failures that we pick up. Keep seeing great things when an average or below average player has a career day, never to be repeated. This doesn't bother me; I saw 17 years of this stuff. You guys haven't even been half way yet.
The sperm recipients in the owners' box have followed virtually every prescription you "fans" and the sportswriters you all listen to wanted and the result is this train wreck- an expansion team. "Oh, it couldn't be worse." You are all finding out now that yes, indeed, it can be worse.
One stupid decision after another. This isn't getting fixed next year or the year after or the year after that. The team needs players, lots of players, and unless Gettleman hits the equivalent of power ball in the lottery and free agency, we are going to spin our wheels-spending resources to shore up positions where injury, Gettleman's seat-of-the-pants trades or free agency create new holes while trying to fix the holes the team started with. He's already admitted by his actions that he has mis-spent 1/3 of his draft picks and needs to spend more picks and dough on a decent defensive linemen.
This clear the cap stuff makes me laugh. You guys never want to pay our own players, but are all in for Gettleman, who has shown zippedy do dah acumen signing free agents, to go out and spend all this new cap money on free agents whose own teams decided they aren't worth it. Perfect. That way he can turn around and trade them to legit contenders after a season or two for more 5th round picks.
And Shurmur blows. Think on this; if he can go 6-10 some season, that record will represent his high water mark in victories as a HC. WTF is he doing here in the first place? He shouldn't have been hired and he should be shown the door at the end of this season. Won't happen though because the excuses will flow from the folks who are too invested in still another error and you guys will swallow those excuses hook, line and sinker.
So, enjoy it. Embrace the suck. Keep rooting for those vet failures that we pick up. Keep seeing great things when an average or below average player has a career day, never to be repeated. This doesn't bother me; I saw 17 years of this stuff. You guys haven't even been half way yet.
You seem like a fun time at parties.
I think a good base of talent is being established here but they are still really young collectively. A good FA and a third solid draft and we may look closer like the Niners. It took them a few years to get to where they are now and many werent pretty.
While he pissed me off royally last year for practically benching Saquon in the 2nd half of the game @ Philly which we should have won, I did feel things were generally headed in the right direction.
I could be on board up to but not after the Arizona game. That is when I think it became obvious that Shurmur is what he is, a losing coach. After a couple of tough games against top defenses with a depleted offense we came home and laid a massive egg against a team that an improving NYG team should beat.
The realization that Shurmur is a terrible coach is disheartening because that's a major setback. Even with the risks associated, I'd remove him at season's end but I believe those risks are why Mara won't do it and we may well find ourselves here again next season even with an improving roster.
Totally agree. The offense could use 2-3 pieces on the OL and a top WR to make them go from average to Top 10. Right now, they are the furthest thing from the problem.
The defense needs to be addressed hard this next offseason. Everyone knew coming into this year that that was going to be the case. I would be shocked if that wasn't Gettleman's focus this whole offseason.
Alas, ownership isn’t changing. Which is an enormous problem.
But management and coaching can. And that drives personnel.
Mara and Tisch could show some real change and vision by blowing up the entire infrastructure at the end of the year and moving this organization into a new era of fresh thinking that opposes the “Giants Way”. Severe all ties to that mindset.
If they can do that, there is a real chance to right this ship...
They haven't really drafted/developed any stout pass rushes like they were known for in the mid 2000s, also troubling. Resource allocation has also been poor, to say the least.
This team is still many players away from being a legit contender. The talent level still looks scarce. How there are repeated defenses of this organization on BBI is beyond me. This has been one of the worst run franchises in the NFL for coming up on a decade.
No. It means they got more talent on this team and that is how you field a sustainably good product. Having 3 straight solid drafts. That is not on the owners.
The team building and coaching are the single biggest factors in having a good football team. Personally, I feel that this team is on the right path after having 6+ years of bad drafts to recover from.
This sums it up perfectly. The same year every year, it’s maddening!
I am tired of hearing "but they are only rookies back there" or "Bettcher didn't forget how to coach". F that - yes he did. We have not made an adjustment to stop any opposing team from converting on 3rd and short ... or 3rd and very long. These are NFL players. Try some different schemes, don't have our freaking corners play off 10 yards when it is 3rd and 5.
I am just so tired of seeing every opposing team march down the field time after time. Yes, Haley can tackle, but he can't cover anyone. Why hasn't Ballentine been used more (before he got hurt) ? He could not do worse.
My fear on signing Leonard Williams is that they are giving Bettcher another year to create a barely average defense. Watching the Cardinals RB run for 3 TD's ... each for over 20 yards ... made me sick to my stomach. Whatever we are doing - it does not work !!!
I hate that football isn't a topic of conversation in my world b/c I'd rather not talk about it. I mean, what is there to say aside from the fact that Daniel Jones appears to be showing some promise?
April can't get here fast enough since it's the only time I feel hopeful about the Giants moving forward.
The fact that both units have some good young foundational players is a credit to Gettleman, he hasn't been perfect but he has improved the young talent base. Think back to who he inherited as contributors under age 25 on rookie deals. Collins for sure. Then who? Eli Apple? Engram? Tomlinson? Shepard? That's about the entire list. 2 offseasons later that list is a lot longer and more impactful with Barkley, Jones, Hernandez, Carter, Baker, Peppers, Lawrence, Connelly, Hill, Slayton, etc. There are possibly more than 2 or 3 potential pro bowlers in the future on that list.
But better talent is meaningless if doesn't lead to better performance - the coaching staff has got to start showing something or they need to be shown the door.
The sperm recipients in the owners' box have followed virtually every prescription you "fans" and the sportswriters you all listen to wanted and the result is this train wreck- an expansion team. "Oh, it couldn't be worse." You are all finding out now that yes, indeed, it can be worse.
One stupid decision after another. This isn't getting fixed next year or the year after or the year after that. The team needs players, lots of players, and unless Gettleman hits the equivalent of power ball in the lottery and free agency, we are going to spin our wheels-spending resources to shore up positions where injury, Gettleman's seat-of-the-pants trades or free agency create new holes while trying to fix the holes the team started with. He's already admitted by his actions that he has mis-spent 1/3 of his draft picks and needs to spend more picks and dough on a decent defensive linemen.
This clear the cap stuff makes me laugh. You guys never want to pay our own players, but are all in for Gettleman, who has shown zippedy do dah acumen signing free agents, to go out and spend all this new cap money on free agents whose own teams decided they aren't worth it. Perfect. That way he can turn around and trade them to legit contenders after a season or two for more 5th round picks.
And Shurmur blows. Think on this; if he can go 6-10 some season, that record will represent his high water mark in victories as a HC. WTF is he doing here in the first place? He shouldn't have been hired and he should be shown the door at the end of this season. Won't happen though because the excuses will flow from the folks who are too invested in still another error and you guys will swallow those excuses hook, line and sinker.
So, enjoy it. Embrace the suck. Keep rooting for those vet failures that we pick up. Keep seeing great things when an average or below average player has a career day, never to be repeated. This doesn't bother me; I saw 17 years of this stuff. You guys haven't even been half way yet.
So it’s the fans fault? And we’re not supposed to hope for a turnaround?
What is the point of your post? That you were old enough to be around for the 70s? That we’re not real fans unless we go through the same misery?
Seems like you enjoy the misery
But they better beat the Fing Cowboys Monday night!
Go race horses full time
I thought there would be more progress to this point but reality set in. They have good pieces on the D front. The OL will be HIGHLY addressed this off-season. When they complete this it will be two very big factors that determine division and NFL championships moving forward.
1. QB. I think Jones is the real deal. He is tough, mentally strong and very competitive. Certainly growing pains but I would take my chances with him.
2. Coaching. I don't think Shurmur is the answer. He most likely will get next year but this will be the final piece.
Then you root like heck, hope for some good health and a little luck along the way. Once the lines are completed and you identify a coach we have just about as good of chance as anybody.
Run the ball, Stop the run and get after the passer. Yes an old mantra but still true today. I do believe DG starting next year will have accomplished this. There is some talent already on this team and it is young.
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In comment 14656913 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
The line is a far bigger problem than the WR group.
Yes, but he said the offense is close to complete, needing only to add a few lineman to make it complete. That's not true.
I think with an offensive line that is good, not 'adequate', but actually a strength - a pass catching group of Shepard, Slayton, Tate, and Engram (+ Barkley) is good enough to win games. Sure, a Michael Thomas type would probably take it from good to great - but I actually don't think the WR group is terrible right now when we're healthy.
The depth could certainly improve. But, would draft at least two offensive linemen before I even batted an eye @ the WR position.
The 49ers don't have a stud WR - they just acquired Sanders and he's their best one now. Still haven't lost a game. They play defense, run the football, and Jimmy G has made plays with his arm when he's needed to. Last night was probably the best game of his career. You don't need a top flight WR to be a good team. You just need some good ones and some reliable ones.
I don't think anyone's saying you can't do it. But on average, teams don't win with lousy WRs.
And it's another part of the philosophy of the team that kills me. The focus seems to be on running the ball and stopping the run.
In a league that's gone heavily pass first - why? When the rules are basically encouraging you to pass, why would you focus on the run?
they have committed to the OL rebuild, but not really getting results. still need to replace around 50% of the players and add depth
For the last few years we've heard that our camp cuts would make other teams rosters (implication - we've fixed our drafting player acquisition problems) - didn't happen.
How many years does it take to fix an o-line.
How long before a connection is drawn between our inability to cover a TE - and don't get me fucking started on 3rd string TE who look like Pro-Bowlers when they play us - and our failure to get linebackers or safeties.
The thing that gets me. I was a little kid in 91 but I remember Ray Handley and how he was kicked out of town. His winning percentage in two years was .438 and Giant fans were livid at the mediocrity. In a season and a half Shurmur's record is .304 and the outrage is minimal.
Have we come to accept failure as long as we get success once a decade or so?
Our FO won't come out and say ANYTHING. That's the most maddening part to me.
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In comment 14656920 Greg from LI said:
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In comment 14656913 arcarsenal said:
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The line is a far bigger problem than the WR group.
Yes, but he said the offense is close to complete, needing only to add a few lineman to make it complete. That's not true.
I think with an offensive line that is good, not 'adequate', but actually a strength - a pass catching group of Shepard, Slayton, Tate, and Engram (+ Barkley) is good enough to win games. Sure, a Michael Thomas type would probably take it from good to great - but I actually don't think the WR group is terrible right now when we're healthy.
The depth could certainly improve. But, would draft at least two offensive linemen before I even batted an eye @ the WR position.
The 49ers don't have a stud WR - they just acquired Sanders and he's their best one now. Still haven't lost a game. They play defense, run the football, and Jimmy G has made plays with his arm when he's needed to. Last night was probably the best game of his career. You don't need a top flight WR to be a good team. You just need some good ones and some reliable ones.
I don't think anyone's saying you can't do it. But on average, teams don't win with lousy WRs.
And it's another part of the philosophy of the team that kills me. The focus seems to be on running the ball and stopping the run.
In a league that's gone heavily pass first - why? When the rules are basically encouraging you to pass, why would you focus on the run?
This is simply not true. Name an NFL champion over the past 5 years that has had a great WR corps? Tate, Shepard, and Slayton may not be great, but I don't think they are lousy. Hell, we haven't even seen them all, along with Engram, on the field at the same time yet this season.
Also, if you haven't been paying attention to some of the better teams in the league right now, they are running the ball. A lot.
The league has moved towards quicker and faster LBs and Front Sevens. Smart teams like the Pats, 49ers, and Ravens have taken advantage of that and have gone with bigger personnel and run the ball down opposing teams throats.
Unless you have a truly special QB, ala Mahomes or Rodgers, the smarter play right now is building a great running game and defense and controlling the clock.
The sperm recipients in the owners' box have followed virtually every prescription you "fans" and the sportswriters you all listen to wanted and the result is this train wreck- an expansion team. "Oh, it couldn't be worse." You are all finding out now that yes, indeed, it can be worse.
One stupid decision after another. This isn't getting fixed next year or the year after or the year after that. The team needs players, lots of players, and unless Gettleman hits the equivalent of power ball in the lottery and free agency, we are going to spin our wheels-spending resources to shore up positions where injury, Gettleman's seat-of-the-pants trades or free agency create new holes while trying to fix the holes the team started with. He's already admitted by his actions that he has mis-spent 1/3 of his draft picks and needs to spend more picks and dough on a decent defensive linemen.
This clear the cap stuff makes me laugh. You guys never want to pay our own players, but are all in for Gettleman, who has shown zippedy do dah acumen signing free agents, to go out and spend all this new cap money on free agents whose own teams decided they aren't worth it. Perfect. That way he can turn around and trade them to legit contenders after a season or two for more 5th round picks.
And Shurmur blows. Think on this; if he can go 6-10 some season, that record will represent his high water mark in victories as a HC. WTF is he doing here in the first place? He shouldn't have been hired and he should be shown the door at the end of this season. Won't happen though because the excuses will flow from the folks who are too invested in still another error and you guys will swallow those excuses hook, line and sinker.
So, enjoy it. Embrace the suck. Keep rooting for those vet failures that we pick up. Keep seeing great things when an average or below average player has a career day, never to be repeated. This doesn't bother me; I saw 17 years of this stuff. You guys haven't even been half way yet.
Although you are being somewhat of a dick about it, I do have to say I agree with a lot of what you said... mainly the point that NY fans and media can be absolutely brutal and only certain personalities can succeed in NY sports. I literally believe that players succeed IN SPITE OF the fans and media and if anything the fans and media are more often than not detrimental to their teams these days. Everything is "what have you done for me lately" -type of attitude and as soon as a team starts losing it's always "blow the whole thing up and start over it can't possibly be worse, they're all a buncha bums, why can't it be more like when Parcells was here, etc.." Because it isn't our birthright to have a championship or even playoff team every single damn year.
Meanwhile I will also say the team had a character issue in 2017 and a lot of that was exacerbated by the fact that McAdoo was simply not a "leader of men" like Coughlin and Parcells were, he was passive-aggressive and arrogant and a lot of the players alluded to this. As soon as they started losing a couple games, even though they may very well have just been a slump, the media started picking and prodding and the players and coach were not prepared to deal with it, they were too thin-skinned to play in NY and they literally just fell apart and got worse and worse until the whole situation unraveled and there was a total mutiny of fans, players, coaches, media, everyone. It was despicable and disgusting how quickly it all unraveled after JUST coming off of a season where they'd just gone 11-5 and gone to the playoffs. That was my perspective on it anyway.
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you all had it coming so you can suck on it now.
The sperm recipients in the owners' box have followed virtually every prescription you "fans" and the sportswriters you all listen to wanted and the result is this train wreck- an expansion team. "Oh, it couldn't be worse." You are all finding out now that yes, indeed, it can be worse.
One stupid decision after another. This isn't getting fixed next year or the year after or the year after that. The team needs players, lots of players, and unless Gettleman hits the equivalent of power ball in the lottery and free agency, we are going to spin our wheels-spending resources to shore up positions where injury, Gettleman's seat-of-the-pants trades or free agency create new holes while trying to fix the holes the team started with. He's already admitted by his actions that he has mis-spent 1/3 of his draft picks and needs to spend more picks and dough on a decent defensive linemen.
This clear the cap stuff makes me laugh. You guys never want to pay our own players, but are all in for Gettleman, who has shown zippedy do dah acumen signing free agents, to go out and spend all this new cap money on free agents whose own teams decided they aren't worth it. Perfect. That way he can turn around and trade them to legit contenders after a season or two for more 5th round picks.
And Shurmur blows. Think on this; if he can go 6-10 some season, that record will represent his high water mark in victories as a HC. WTF is he doing here in the first place? He shouldn't have been hired and he should be shown the door at the end of this season. Won't happen though because the excuses will flow from the folks who are too invested in still another error and you guys will swallow those excuses hook, line and sinker.
So, enjoy it. Embrace the suck. Keep rooting for those vet failures that we pick up. Keep seeing great things when an average or below average player has a career day, never to be repeated. This doesn't bother me; I saw 17 years of this stuff. You guys haven't even been half way yet.
You seem like a fun time at parties.
Nice! I guess he roots for some other team...
Go race horses full time
Maybe we bring back EA to audit the personnel department similar to the way he hand-picked DG for ownership. His recommendation? Stay the course. You need continuity in this business. Chris Mara was part of 2 SB wins, and he's got the goods. SMH.
There's some wiggle room there. I'm not suggesting you trade for Julio Jones. But a top flight WR would go a long way towards helping this team out. Right now, even when they have time nobody out there is getting separation, and Jones is running around desperately trying to make something happen, which all too often results in disaster.
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Why? They have committed again to building the lines and being a physical again.
they have committed to the OL rebuild, but not really getting results. still need to replace around 50% of the players and add depth
I agree and addressed this in another thread. Short term I think DG with Mara's urging tried to assemble the best OL he could for the last two years. Circumstances changed.
Let's see how aggressive they are this off-season. I expect two OL picks in the first three rounds and most likely a LT round 1. Solder will compete with him and one or the other will be the RT next year imo. Hopefully one of the UFA's/Recent DP's on the roster/practice squad surprise.
Good defense and offense are not mutually exclusive. You can in fact have a good defense and be a pass-first team. The Giants went 11-5 not too long ago in similar fashion.
Their receivers are not good. You make a good point that people always throw that stat out there and that should tell us something about our receivers. I like Shepard, but he is not a #1 receiver, he could be an awesome #3/slot receiver and a serviceable #2. He is not a #1.
Tate is not either. There's a reason why when Philly picked him up he was like their #4 or #5 receiver. I have no idea why Gettleman gave him #1 money. Maybe 5 years ago that contract would have been fine, but not in 2019.
Slayton has been a nice surprise. But he will not be a #1 receiver either. He'll be a fine player and have a nice role as a deep threat, but he ain't no #1.
Even Fowler I don't mind as a guy to come in in 4 WR packages etc., seems like he's had a decent rapport with Jones.
But they need a #1 WR. You don't need a superstar WR to win a super bowl, but you need a clear-cut #1. Period.
I don’t even yell at the TV anymore. I just look for players now that we may be able to build around. We have a few.
It will be several years of good drafting before we are competitive again.
Rookie snap count - ( New Window )
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In comment 14656920 Greg from LI said:
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In comment 14656913 arcarsenal said:
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The line is a far bigger problem than the WR group.
Yes, but he said the offense is close to complete, needing only to add a few lineman to make it complete. That's not true.
I think with an offensive line that is good, not 'adequate', but actually a strength - a pass catching group of Shepard, Slayton, Tate, and Engram (+ Barkley) is good enough to win games. Sure, a Michael Thomas type would probably take it from good to great - but I actually don't think the WR group is terrible right now when we're healthy.
The depth could certainly improve. But, would draft at least two offensive linemen before I even batted an eye @ the WR position.
The 49ers don't have a stud WR - they just acquired Sanders and he's their best one now. Still haven't lost a game. They play defense, run the football, and Jimmy G has made plays with his arm when he's needed to. Last night was probably the best game of his career. You don't need a top flight WR to be a good team. You just need some good ones and some reliable ones.
I don't think anyone's saying you can't do it. But on average, teams don't win with lousy WRs.
And it's another part of the philosophy of the team that kills me. The focus seems to be on running the ball and stopping the run.
In a league that's gone heavily pass first - why? When the rules are basically encouraging you to pass, why would you focus on the run?
We don't have 'lousy' WR's. We don't have an elite one. We could also use better depth. There's a good bit of middle ground between lousy and great.
You want to see a lousy WR group? Go watch the Jets.
Why would you focus on the run in a pass-first league? Simple. The same reason the Patriots found success going so run-heavy late last year. A lot of defense are built to defend the pass. To do so, they have a lot of lighter, more mobile players at the second level. Sometimes these players don't defend the run well and aren't equipped to defend a power running game.
It's zigging when the field is zagging. Following everyone else isn't a great strategy. You never want to be behind the pack following everyone else.
RB's cost less than WR's. It's strategically sound to build a power run game around Barkley, call more designed runs for Jones, and implement a good deal of play action.
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Cant have an owner in the front office.
Go race horses full time
Maybe we bring back EA to audit the personnel department similar to the way he hand-picked DG for ownership. His recommendation? Stay the course. You need continuity in this business. Chris Mara was part of 2 SB wins, and he's got the goods. SMH.
Continuity in the the coaching staff matters
Continuity on the the OL or at QB matters.
I dont see how continuity in the FO matters at all.
It seems to me he is treating this as a part time job these days with an owners level of influence.
So it’s the fans fault?
I do think at some level the fan outrage to the Eli benching set the rebuild two more years. It was time then to seriously transition plan, not try to piecemeal a last run with Eli. The team needed so much help everywhere, yet DG pressed with his square pegs.
Good defense and offense are not mutually exclusive. You can in fact have a good defense and be a pass-first team. The Giants went 11-5 not too long ago in similar fashion.
2016? If you qualify that as 'pass-first', that's fine - but we weren't that good at it. Our pass offense was routinely stifled by basic Cover 2 shells and was entirely reliant on Beckham taking quick slants to the house.
That's not a good way to build an offense.
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So it’s the fans fault?
I do think at some level the fan outrage to the Eli benching set the rebuild two more years. It was time then to seriously transition plan, not try to piecemeal a last run with Eli. The team needed so much help everywhere, yet DG pressed with his square pegs.
meh, thats still on ownership for reacting to the fans.
They're a bottom 3 team right now and it's going to take 2-3 more years to become competitive. At least it looks like they have a QB which is the most important position.
Look at all of the best rushing teams in the league right now. They're almost universally winning teams.
Meanwhile, it's the shitty Falcons out-passing everyone.
Of course, this is game flow stuff too - you run more from ahead, you pass more from behind. But, it seems to me that teams that succeed running the football generally win a good deal of football games.
Chasing a high-octane passing offense would be the wrong strategy in my eyes.
We don't have 'lousy' WR's. We don't have an elite one. We could also use better depth. There's a good bit of middle ground between lousy and great.
You want to see a lousy WR group? Go watch the Jets.
Why would you focus on the run in a pass-first league? Simple. The same reason the Patriots found success going so run-heavy late last year. A lot of defense are built to defend the pass. To do so, they have a lot of lighter, more mobile players at the second level. Sometimes these players don't defend the run well and aren't equipped to defend a power running game.
It's zigging when the field is zagging. Following everyone else isn't a great strategy. You never want to be behind the pack following everyone else.
RB's cost less than WR's. It's strategically sound to build a power run game around Barkley, call more designed runs for Jones, and implement a good deal of play action.
They're a lot closer to lousy than great, that's for sure. Shepard is one hit away from his career being over, and even without that he's a solid #2. Tate's overrated around here - expensive, and doesn't offer much over Shepard. Slayton might actually be a nice find if his hands can improve a bit. But the go-to guy? Not on the roster.
Remembering of course that Engram is a TE, not a WR.
Watch the Jets as an example? Fantastic. The BBI opt out to any discussion these days is always 'well, someone has it worse'.
Follow the Patriots model? Even better advice - all we need is Belichick.
Everyone loves Accorsi these days, so let's take a step back and remember when the offense first started taking off, when Plax was added.
Other than finding a QB, the biggest part of the 49ers turnaround was spending 7 straight first round picks (over multiple GMs) on front 7 players and OL while also investing big $ there via trades and FA. They drafted Armstead, Buckner, McGlinchey, and now potential DPOY Bosa. They also added Dee Ford, Kwon Alexander, Sherman, and our old friend Richburg. Of the 9 highest paid players on their cap just 1 of them was drafted by the 49ers (Joe Staley and that was 12 years and a few regimes ago, 8 picks after we took Aaron Ross).
This is a model Gettleman would be well served to follow going forward and in some ways already has been with Hernandez, Lawrence, Golden, Hill, and now Leonard Williams - though the most critical part will be doubling down on it with our next high picks now that we have Jones. And finding better coaches.
And thanks for exaggerating the Patriots point. You don't need to have Bill Belichick to run the football.
Resources are finite in the NFL; it's not that an elite WR wouldn't make the Giants better, it's that upgrading OTHER positions offensively would probably have more of an impact.
If I have a choice between making the OL a strength and finding a WR1, it's the former for me every time. A great WR does nothing if the line sucks and doesn't protect the QB. Every Giants fan saw this for years. I shouldn't need to explain why that doesn't work.
We already watched the Giants with an elite WR from 2014-2018. With the exception of one year led by a top 5 defense, all we did was field mostly bad offenses and lose football games.
So, if you're really dying to see us with a top-flight WR, just go back and watch those teams that featured a guy who was arguably the best in the game (or close) at the time and watch us lose just like we are now.
I don’t even yell at the TV anymore. I just look for players now that we may be able to build around. We have a few.
It will be several years of good drafting before we are competitive again.
I’m pretty sure most of the board isn’t in their 60s
We need to be competitive in 2020, period. I'm not saying Super Bowl competitive, let's be realistic. I'd settle for just meaningful November/December game competitive. Have a shot at the post-season competitive. There has been no reason to go to a game later in the season. Why go to a game in December in the freezing cold surrounded by asshole Eagle fans to watch the Giants get crushed. I can think of better things to do with my money.
I'd like to go to a meaningful/fun cold weather game. How about that for starters...
We were all younger, but at least I gave a shit back then. Now I just expect them to fold against any average to good team
100% agree Jon
JonC,
"four or more" seasons? I know you're lamenting this fact, but to me if it takes "four or more" seasons that means you are on the verge of a decade of losing. Because after 4-5 years you are not going to now have a "solid foundation", rather you are invariably going to have roster turnover because you can't resign every singly player that you hit on in the draft, a lot of them are going to walk in FA and you need to start over and hit on new players in the draft. Teams that win super bowls rely heavily on their youth and the fact that they are getting bargains for young players playing well on cheap salaries (namely, the QB, which helps quite a bit when he is playing well on a rookie QB salary). By year 4 or 5 we're going to have to pay any players we actually hit on in the draft massive contracts and then hope we hit on more in next drafts. Vets who are actually decent players now are going to age and not be any good anymore and we'll have to hit on more vets in FA. There's so much turnover in this "not for long" league in the era of the salary cap that you only have a certain window to turn a team around and win, if you take more than 4 years than you're just in a vicious cycle of turnover and mediocrity, you don't necessarily have a "solid foundation" at that time.
btw - where do you all think this was going?
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to clear out the roster and salary cap, and build the foundation. Now, it feels like they'll need four or more, unless DG starts to hit UFA more effectively. I also think the coaching staff isn't going to lead us to a championship, so I'd rather get that settled sooner than later.
JonC,
"four or more" seasons? I know you're lamenting this fact, but to me if it takes "four or more" seasons that means you are on the verge of a decade of losing. Because after 4-5 years you are not going to now have a "solid foundation", rather you are invariably going to have roster turnover because you can't resign every singly player that you hit on in the draft, a lot of them are going to walk in FA and you need to start over and hit on new players in the draft. Teams that win super bowls rely heavily on their youth and the fact that they are getting bargains for young players playing well on cheap salaries (namely, the QB, which helps quite a bit when he is playing well on a rookie QB salary). By year 4 or 5 we're going to have to pay any players we actually hit on in the draft massive contracts and then hope we hit on more in next drafts. Vets who are actually decent players now are going to age and not be any good anymore and we'll have to hit on more vets in FA. There's so much turnover in this "not for long" league in the era of the salary cap that you only have a certain window to turn a team around and win, if you take more than 4 years than you're just in a vicious cycle of turnover and mediocrity, you don't necessarily have a "solid foundation" at that time.
Let me be a little more clear with my thoughts and put it this way:
I keep hearing people saying: "clearly we're in rebuilding mode, we've torn the roster down and of course we're going to be crappy for a few years while adding the correct pieces one by one." But here's my thing: this roster has already been built entirely by Gettleman from top to bottom and from where I'm sitting I see literally zero improvement from 2017, and if anything this team looks worse than 2017 (regardless of record, the team just looks bad, we're a missed 34 yd field goal away from being 1-6). If Gettleman has gotten the right players, then why aren't we at least "competing" and somewhere close to winning. This is Gettleman's team. What are we/they waiting for before they're suddenly going to be good or even decent? If he's picked the right football players they should at least be playing decent football. They are not. They suck. They aren't suddenly going to become good football players. Simple as that. Mara, Gettleman, and Shurmur are behind almost every other Owner, GM, and coach in the NFL. They shouldn't have to lose 59-0 every game for us to realize that. The same way we shouldn't have had to see Eli throw 38 interceptions a game to realize he simply wasn't a $20M top 15 QB in this league anymore.
I also don't get where DG is arrogant. My God, if you want to talk arrogance, then let's talk the former regime where Reese spoke rarely and was often petulant. Hey, I wanted us to be better this year also and hopefully challenge for a playoff spot. It just proves once again that you have to draft well. If you do not, no amount of FA spending is going to fix that.
Gettleman has had two good drafts although I wish he had spent more draft capital on the OL. Still, this just proves what a bad position we were in.
JonC referred to the coaching staff and I am in agreement there as well. These last 8 games are an evaluation of Shurmur and Bettcher and whether we can go forward with them. But, my goodness, we still need help at LB, pass rush and OL. I am still not sold on Evan Engram...he is just invisible too often...one great game and then 3 or 4 average ones plus he is an injury waiting to happen.
I'm getting older and want us to compete for the Super Bowl every year, like the Patriots do, but if there is an issue with the Giants everyone should be upset about it is ownership. I have lost complete confidence in John Mara. To my mind, if we want to complain, the one constant has been him. So, like, figure it out who is at fault.
Ffs Gibbs invented the H-Back and 12 personnel to stop LT decades ago, instead Shemur has SB constantly pas blocking.
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In comment 14656935 arcarsenal said:
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In comment 14656920 Greg from LI said:
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In comment 14656913 arcarsenal said:
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The line is a far bigger problem than the WR group.
Yes, but he said the offense is close to complete, needing only to add a few lineman to make it complete. That's not true.
I think with an offensive line that is good, not 'adequate', but actually a strength - a pass catching group of Shepard, Slayton, Tate, and Engram (+ Barkley) is good enough to win games. Sure, a Michael Thomas type would probably take it from good to great - but I actually don't think the WR group is terrible right now when we're healthy.
The depth could certainly improve. But, would draft at least two offensive linemen before I even batted an eye @ the WR position.
The 49ers don't have a stud WR - they just acquired Sanders and he's their best one now. Still haven't lost a game. They play defense, run the football, and Jimmy G has made plays with his arm when he's needed to. Last night was probably the best game of his career. You don't need a top flight WR to be a good team. You just need some good ones and some reliable ones.
I don't think anyone's saying you can't do it. But on average, teams don't win with lousy WRs.
And it's another part of the philosophy of the team that kills me. The focus seems to be on running the ball and stopping the run.
In a league that's gone heavily pass first - why? When the rules are basically encouraging you to pass, why would you focus on the run?
We don't have 'lousy' WR's. We don't have an elite one. We could also use better depth. There's a good bit of middle ground between lousy and great.
You want to see a lousy WR group? Go watch the Jets.
Why would you focus on the run in a pass-first league? Simple. The same reason the Patriots found success going so run-heavy late last year. A lot of defense are built to defend the pass. To do so, they have a lot of lighter, more mobile players at the second level. Sometimes these players don't defend the run well and aren't equipped to defend a power running game.
It's zigging when the field is zagging. Following everyone else isn't a great strategy. You never want to be behind the pack following everyone else.
RB's cost less than WR's. It's strategically sound to build a power run game around Barkley, call more designed runs for Jones, and implement a good deal of play action.
Great post. Agree completely.
No. It means they got more talent on this team and that is how you field a sustainably good product. Having 3 straight solid drafts. That is not on the owners.
The team building and coaching are the single biggest factors in having a good football team. Personally, I feel that this team is on the right path after having 6+ years of bad drafts to recover from.
Well that's just it, right? Is this team one great draft away from turning the corner? Is the foundation really in place to enough of an extent that there's a tipping point in the near future?
If you believe that the team really is one great draft away, then to some extent you fundamentally already don't have a problem with ownership's choice for GM and/or the GM's choice for HC, right?
And the inverse is also true - if you genuinely believe that ownership and the continued emphasis on going back to the same well to fill the front office is a problem, you probably also don't really believe that this team is one great draft away.
I suppose you can believe that the team is in position to begin to track toward quantifiable progress (in terms of winning) in spite of ownership, but I feel like that's logically inconsistent on some level.
I did expect to see incremental improvements. And the list of needs to grow shorter.
Maybe more of the problems are with the coaching than it seems. But I look at the list of needs and it never gets shorter, even in the last 2 years.
Defense:
Dline: We have 3 run stuffers, still need a more dynamic player that can get an outside pass rush from the opposite side of the ER.
ER: obvious need
LB: We've trotted out hot garbage at LB for a decade, its still hot garbage and now we run a 3-4 which requires better LBs. We finally get one that looks to be at least competant and he promptly tears his ACL. Still need 3 of these.
CB: We've needed one opposite JJ since he got here. Noe JJ will be moving on... Baker seems likely to b a competent one, now we need a replacement on the other side. Slot CB seems like a forever need as well. plus depth.
FS: Needed one of these since Rolle moved to SS. Even Rolle was a hybrid DB. Need to go back Gibril Wilson since we had a true FS.
Offense:
OL: Need 2 tackles and a center. The Giants have been trying to plug in players off the NFL trash heap since the last SB. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing, that has failed in the past, over and over and expecting a better result. Except for Hernandez, the Giants haven't successfully drafted and developed an OL player since Will Beatty if you consider Beatty a success. Before that, you have to go back to Chris Snee 15 years ago. At best they have drafted and developed 3 OL in the last 15 years. That's just an incredible record of futility.
WR: looked like a strength for a while, but now OBJ is gone and SS might retire, if he returns, will he last, will he be the same guy going over the middle? And the last time this team had a real #2 WR was Manningham. Maybe, hopefully D. Slayton can grow into 1 starter role, but reality is they probably need 2 more in the next couple years.
TE: Ellison probably won't be back. Need a good in-line run blocking TE that can catch a pass.
In summary thats:
1 DL, 1 ER, 3 LB, 2 CB, 1 FS, 3 OL, 2 WR, 1 TE
That list just never seems to get shorter!
It feels like the Giants are spinning their wheels in the mud.
At least it doesn't include QB anymore. At least for now.
I hate the thought of just KNOWING there is no way in hell the Cowboys don’t score on their first possession. In addition, I would be shocked if they scored less than 30. That is how much I have faith in our coaches and our secondary.
I don’t think we are as far off as it seems.
1. Shurmur gets the rest of this year to show growth in Jones. If Jones does not look better, Shurmur has got to go. For me, his hire was directly tied to his ability to get production from the QB position(See Keenum & Foles) Fair or not, if Jones does not improve Shurmur should be cut.
2. That said, I believe in Jones. I think DG drafted the right guy. Nothing was more important than hitting on the QB. I know we need to see more to be certain, but I believe we have our future.
3. I LOVE the trade for L Williams. Big Cat has legit talent. This is the type of move we NEVER used to make. I don’t see desperation, I believe there are only a handful of human beings on the planet that move like Lawrence and Williams at their size. DG is trying to put a few on the line. 3rd and 4th/5th for a human that moves like Williams at his age is a good get. Of course Williams has warts, if he did not he would have cost a lot more. They see him as a building block. So do I. I like the potential ROI.
4. Defense is young, we are playing a lot of young guys. This is an investment in 2020 that we are paying in 2019. I expect these guys to grow during the year. No matter when you were going to give them the experience, they were going to make mistakes that cost games. Might as well be this year. Get Bethea out of there, no reason for it.
5. I think D Slayton has the chance to be a number 1, he is improving. He makes plays.
6. Next year is the big year, We have money, we need to spend it wisely and we should have some players that learned a lot this year.
I do see a plan and I like it.
Agreed 100%, DG gets a pass from some around here, and outside of the qb position, I just don't see the improvement. I also see poor resource allocation.
I don’t think we are as far off as it seems.
1. Shurmur gets the rest of this year to show growth in Jones. If Jones does not look better, Shurmur has got to go. For me, his hire was directly tied to his ability to get production from the QB position(See Keenum & Foles) Fair or not, if Jones does not improve Shurmur should be cut.
2. That said, I believe in Jones. I think DG drafted the right guy. Nothing was more important than hitting on the QB. I know we need to see more to be certain, but I believe we have our future.
3. I LOVE the trade for L Williams. Big Cat has legit talent. This is the type of move we NEVER used to make. I don’t see desperation, I believe there are only a handful of human beings on the planet that move like Lawrence and Williams at their size. DG is trying to put a few on the line. 3rd and 4th/5th for a human that moves like Williams at his age is a good get. Of course Williams has warts, if he did not he would have cost a lot more. They see him as a building block. So do I. I like the potential ROI.
4. Defense is young, we are playing a lot of young guys. This is an investment in 2020 that we are paying in 2019. I expect these guys to grow during the year. No matter when you were going to give them the experience, they were going to make mistakes that cost games. Might as well be this year. Get Bethea out of there, no reason for it.
5. I think D Slayton has the chance to be a number 1, he is improving. He makes plays.
6. Next year is the big year, We have money, we need to spend it wisely and we should have some players that learned a lot this year.
I do see a plan and I like it.
This is my FAVORITE POST of the 100 written here. I like how you are able to see past last years and this years losses and Are able to see the BIG PICTURE....2019 is all about 2020.
Some guys apparently didn’t want to believe that....they wanted us to compete for a WC today.....but honestly, is it realistic to expect this when you are playing the most rookies than every other team? And hopefully we get to see two more real soon.....Beal (like a rookie) and Ballentine (And maybe even Love too).
I just want to see us improve and be competitive each week.....for that I can find comfort and HOPE, just like gratefuldead said.
One caveat: I still don’t trust our coaches....all except the DL and ST coaches.
The rosters are designed based on feedback from coaches. They're retained/extended/released/traded based on scouting and feedback that's provided by the coaching staff, and acquisitions are scheme dependent.
If you don't trust the coaches - how do you trust these assessments? How are you sure that the players being developed now are going to fit going forward, if the coaching staff changes materially within the next year or two?
And the fans at Meh Life mostly suck too. Try going to the Linc and talking shit like the animals from Philhy do in our house. Cheerleaders in hot outfits? Goodness forbid! The best thing I can remember seeing a Giants game in the past recent seasons was a halftime act with monkeys riding on the backs of dogs (and let me say, that’s one of the greatest things I’ve ever seen!). Anyway, yeah, we suck. Again.
EE and SB are elite pass catchers to go along with Slayton, Tate and Shepard.
The more guys that can catch the ball and do damage the harder it is for defenses to account for them all.
It's already pretty much a sure thing. McAdoo/Reese went 13-15 over the 2016-17 timeframe. Right now, we'd need to go 7-1 the rest of the way to top their winning pct from that 2-year stretch.
Either Gettleman needs to find a better coach to make his players look better, or he needs to find better players in the first place (or Mara needs to find a better GM, but the odds of Gettleman getting fired are longer than the odds of any of us getting hired to replace him).
The rosters are designed based on feedback from coaches. They're retained/extended/released/traded based on scouting and feedback that's provided by the coaching staff, and acquisitions are scheme dependent.
If you don't trust the coaches - how do you trust these assessments? How are you sure that the players being developed now are going to fit going forward, if the coaching staff changes materially within the next year or two?
Fair question jcn....
Shurmur....his play calling and time management acumen concerns me. For example, putting Saquon on the sidelines last year. V Philly...his questionable use of timeouts under two minutes....stuff like this.
Bettcher And the secondary coach.....not using players according to their strengths. Baker for example. I don’t believe he ever played zone defense in college. His loyalty to his guys, like Martin, Pierre, and Bethea. And speaking about zone defense....has it been effective? Is he coaching these guys up enough? I wonder....but I’m no expert.
This kind of stuff....but I think you already know this.
I also don't get where DG is arrogant.
When you have to remind everyone about your resume every time you speak and make it a point to let everyone know that you're knowingly zigging where the numbers suggest you should zag, yes, that's fucking arrogance.
And it's not a millennial thing to expect the turnaround to be further along than it is - it's an NFL thing. The system is set up to help teams improve somewhat rapidly. Unless you take the approach of tearing the whole thing down to the studs and selling off your hardware for pennies on the dollar while you oscillate between building for today with building for tomorrow - in that case, nothing gets accomplished, you piss away a full season with a misdiagnosis of the roster, and you have an extended rebuild on your hands.
You can only cry about Jerry Reese for so long.
His clock started the day that DJ started his first game.
DEFENSE:
1--- sign LW (assuming he is good). He had better be good. We should expect it. Granted some moves haven't panned out by DG but still got to expect some will. Thus you sign him then the DL is fixed. Even in a 3-4 set they'll get decent pressure. That's one of the 3 needed Free Agent signings that you need as a minimum.
2-- Sign a high quality OLB pass rusher. A high quality OLB. That's two of the 3 needed Free Agent signings that you need as a minimum.
3--- Between safety, ILB and center - AT A MINIMUM sign one Free Agent - must be high quality. If you can sign TWO-- all the better but probably can't. Soooo-- this now three signings of quality FA's.
4--- TRDAE DOWN in teh dratf with the GMEN's 1ts oick. You need three potential starters - and you should be bale to get thatby trading the 1st pick the GMEN will have by getting two picks back wihtin 1st 2 rounds and teh GMEN also have a 2nd roudner. By trading down you'll get the abailiyt to pick three players throuhg 2 rounds.
4a-- ofc the 1st pick once you trade down is get the Tackle.
4b-- what's ever left over with the other two picks you eithe rthe ILB, safety or center.
In summary - you've filled 4 of 5 spots in OL with some degree of quality vs what you currently have. Thus you;ve made Barkley much better and ofc this will make Jones much better which in turn the combo of OL, Jones maturation and better OL play along with Barkley's all-around game with a better OL and Qb will make the WR's better.
On defense- you'll have a good DL and at least 3 of 4 linebacker positions filled. You have 2 corners and with the FA signing or the high draft pick - you've got two safeties.
I did expect to see incremental improvements. And the list of needs to grow shorter.
Maybe more of the problems are with the coaching than it seems. But I look at the list of needs and it never gets shorter, even in the last 2 years.
Defense:
Dline: We have 3 run stuffers, still need a more dynamic player that can get an outside pass rush from the opposite side of the ER.
ER: obvious need
LB: We've trotted out hot garbage at LB for a decade, its still hot garbage and now we run a 3-4 which requires better LBs. We finally get one that looks to be at least competant and he promptly tears his ACL. Still need 3 of these.
CB: We've needed one opposite JJ since he got here. Noe JJ will be moving on... Baker seems likely to b a competent one, now we need a replacement on the other side. Slot CB seems like a forever need as well. plus depth.
FS: Needed one of these since Rolle moved to SS. Even Rolle was a hybrid DB. Need to go back Gibril Wilson since we had a true FS.
Offense:
OL: Need 2 tackles and a center. The Giants have been trying to plug in players off the NFL trash heap since the last SB. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing, that has failed in the past, over and over and expecting a better result. Except for Hernandez, the Giants haven't successfully drafted and developed an OL player since Will Beatty if you consider Beatty a success. Before that, you have to go back to Chris Snee 15 years ago. At best they have drafted and developed 3 OL in the last 15 years. That's just an incredible record of futility.
WR: looked like a strength for a while, but now OBJ is gone and SS might retire, if he returns, will he last, will he be the same guy going over the middle? And the last time this team had a real #2 WR was Manningham. Maybe, hopefully D. Slayton can grow into 1 starter role, but reality is they probably need 2 more in the next couple years.
TE: Ellison probably won't be back. Need a good in-line run blocking TE that can catch a pass.
In summary thats:
1 DL, 1 ER, 3 LB, 2 CB, 1 FS, 3 OL, 2 WR, 1 TE
That list just never seems to get shorter!
It feels like the Giants are spinning their wheels in the mud.
At least it doesn't include QB anymore. At least for now.
No team has studs everywhere.
I think that a really good free safety and inside LB would go a long way towards fixing the defense. An edge rusher would be nice, but I think we can get enough pressure with the guys we have.
On offense I agree two tackles and a center would be ideal, but a solid LT would fix a lot of what is wrong.
Summary - I think we are 3 really good players away from being a threat in the division. LT, ILB, FS. We need to protect DJ's blind side and improve the center of the defense. That is not saying we could improve in other places.
His clock started the day that DJ started his first game.
I can and will, he said Eli had plenty left in the tank.
Both this and last season did not start as rebuilds, just because the goalposts are moved mid-season doesn't change the initial projection of this team from the FO.
This team needs to clean house, it's going to get alot worse with this clownshow before it gets better.
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that Eli was the starting QB during the DG tenure.
His clock started the day that DJ started his first game.
I can and will, he said Eli had plenty left in the tank.
Both this and last season did not start as rebuilds, just because the goalposts are moved mid-season doesn't change the initial projection of this team from the FO.
This team needs to clean house, it's going to get alot worse with this clownshow before it gets better.
+1.
DG doesn't get an extension on his term paper because he swore by his typewriter and bought new ribbons instead of a computer.
Just as an aside, you do realize that "bafoon" makes you a bit unqualified to label anyone as such, right?
Ugh, you want to sit through three more years of In Gettleman We Trust until we climb back to respectability?
Here's the one no one is mentioning but is the carbon monoxide silent killer of the front office - when does Kevin Abrams get replaced?
Well, after 2020, we will have halfway there.
I am ok with DG so far and the drafts appear to be decent
not omg great but they need time to develop cripes even
Strahan was nothing special coming out and he turned into
a legend . Were gonna have to grin and bear it this
season hope Jones continues to get better with timing reads
all security ect but we do have some good pieces to work
with . I expected a 500 season and by the looks of things
thats a pipe dream . I am laying a good portion of it at
Shurmurs feet .If you notice there are not many seasoned ex head coaches out there but if we keep seeing the same mistakes with Shurmur . I don't see how they can keep him yet another season before they blow this staff up . They are getting so little out of Barkley its criminal.
Now I do however feel
Williams is going to have a big impact on the defense and
If we can't win one or two of the next three games then
heads should roll . Monday would be a good place to start
if they come in and kick our asses then I think it will be
the beginning of the end for this staff .
I am ok with DG so far and the drafts appear to be decent
not omg great but they need time to develop cripes even
Strahan was nothing special coming out and he turned into
a legend . Were gonna have to grin and bear it this
season hope Jones continues to get better with timing reads
all security ect but we do have some good pieces to work
with . I expected a 500 season and by the looks of things
thats a pipe dream . I am laying a good portion of it at
Shurmurs feet .If you notice there are not many seasoned ex head coaches out there but if we keep seeing the same mistakes with Shurmur . I don't see how they can keep him yet another season before they blow this staff up . They are getting so little out of Barkley its criminal.
Now I do however feel
Williams is going to have a big impact on the defense and
If we can't win one or two of the next three games then
heads should roll . Monday would be a good place to start
if they come in and kick our asses then I think it will be
the beginning of the end for this staff .
I'm just cranky at this point from so many of these threads, but honestly, you have some interesting takes, even though I don't agree with all of them (or even most of them), but how is it that you feel the need to hit enter after every line (I wish you wouldn't) and never break up your post into paragraphs (I wish you would)?
I'm sure you can see that your posts look different than everyone else's right? That's why.
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e
No team has studs everywhere.
I think that a really good free safety and inside LB would go a long way towards fixing the defense. An edge rusher would be nice, but I think we can get enough pressure with the guys we have.
On offense I agree two tackles and a center would be ideal, but a solid LT would fix a lot of what is wrong.
Summary - I think we are 3 really good players away from being a threat in the division. LT, ILB, FS. We need to protect DJ's blind side and improve the center of the defense. That is not saying we could improve in other places.
Only 3 players? Are you just assuming LW and MG will be Giants next year or GEMN just don't need them???? SO regarding 3 other positions you think covered --
First off - do you think the GMEN need to re-sign LW? He is a Free Agent so they need to sign him right?
Secondly, they lose Markus Golden. DO you think they need to resign him or you think the existing roster can fill that position?
Third-- you are okay with Halapio as center? How is a solid left tackle helping the position a center?
Strahan was nothing special coming out and he turned into
a legend .
LOL, I am assuming this sarcasm based on some of the ridiculous takes responding to me.
Welp they approached halfway in an era where turnarounds are shortened. Figure that
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Gettleman was supposed to fix what Jerry Reese and Marc Ross wrought for almost ten years. Is it the modern way that millennials think things can be fixed overnight.
I also don't get where DG is arrogant.
When you have to remind everyone about your resume every time you speak and make it a point to let everyone know that you're knowingly zigging where the numbers suggest you should zag, yes, that's fucking arrogance.
And it's not a millennial thing to expect the turnaround to be further along than it is - it's an NFL thing. The system is set up to help teams improve somewhat rapidly. Unless you take the approach of tearing the whole thing down to the studs and selling off your hardware for pennies on the dollar while you oscillate between building for today with building for tomorrow - in that case, nothing gets accomplished, you piss away a full season with a misdiagnosis of the roster, and you have an extended rebuild on your hands.
good post man
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even 3 for that matter.
I did expect to see incremental improvements. And the list of needs to grow shorter.
Maybe more of the problems are with the coaching than it seems. But I look at the list of needs and it never gets shorter, even in the last 2 years.
Defense:
Dline: We have 3 run stuffers, still need a more dynamic player that can get an outside pass rush from the opposite side of the ER.
ER: obvious need
LB: We've trotted out hot garbage at LB for a decade, its still hot garbage and now we run a 3-4 which requires better LBs. We finally get one that looks to be at least competant and he promptly tears his ACL. Still need 3 of these.
CB: We've needed one opposite JJ since he got here. Noe JJ will be moving on... Baker seems likely to b a competent one, now we need a replacement on the other side. Slot CB seems like a forever need as well. plus depth.
FS: Needed one of these since Rolle moved to SS. Even Rolle was a hybrid DB. Need to go back Gibril Wilson since we had a true FS.
Offense:
OL: Need 2 tackles and a center. The Giants have been trying to plug in players off the NFL trash heap since the last SB. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing, that has failed in the past, over and over and expecting a better result. Except for Hernandez, the Giants haven't successfully drafted and developed an OL player since Will Beatty if you consider Beatty a success. Before that, you have to go back to Chris Snee 15 years ago. At best they have drafted and developed 3 OL in the last 15 years. That's just an incredible record of futility.
WR: looked like a strength for a while, but now OBJ is gone and SS might retire, if he returns, will he last, will he be the same guy going over the middle? And the last time this team had a real #2 WR was Manningham. Maybe, hopefully D. Slayton can grow into 1 starter role, but reality is they probably need 2 more in the next couple years.
TE: Ellison probably won't be back. Need a good in-line run blocking TE that can catch a pass.
In summary thats:
1 DL, 1 ER, 3 LB, 2 CB, 1 FS, 3 OL, 2 WR, 1 TE
That list just never seems to get shorter!
It feels like the Giants are spinning their wheels in the mud.
At least it doesn't include QB anymore. At least for now.
No team has studs everywhere.
I think that a really good free safety and inside LB would go a long way towards fixing the defense. An edge rusher would be nice, but I think we can get enough pressure with the guys we have.
On offense I agree two tackles and a center would be ideal, but a solid LT would fix a lot of what is wrong.
Summary - I think we are 3 really good players away from being a threat in the division. LT, ILB, FS. We need to protect DJ's blind side and improve the center of the defense. That is not saying we could improve in other places.
I just saw this...
Don't ya just love the excuse for the abject shittiness of the roster the "No team has studs everywhere" argument.
I mean its easy to identify no less than 14 positions where the team doesn't have a competent starter, and the bright side of that is that "No team has studs everywhere".
Well nowhere in my post did I say they needed 14 "studs"...
Of those 14 positions, the Giants next year literally have not a single player signed (or will likely remained signed) who can adequately man the position, or whomever they have signed and starting is so bad that they probably could not stick as a backup for half the teams in the league, or they are depending on a current rookie that hasn't gotten on the field yet.
CB: JJ is likely gone, the best candidate on the team to replace hi m is... wait for it... Beal.
Slot CB: Haley is the worst or one of the worst starting slot CB in the league.
ILB: Ogletree is such a good deal for the Giants that they were actively shopping him and there were no takers! He's terrible, but he is better than anybody else on the roster.
ILB:David Mayo, was mostly a backup at Carolina who got a chance to play due to injuries. The Panthers chose not to resign him. Been mostly invisible here, and is a FA at then end of the year...
ER: Golden has been decent, but he's a FA
OLB/ER: Carter, Ximines good depth rotational guys, neither has shown that they are solid starters yet. That they will become that is just hope right now.
OLB: Chris Peace - Peace who? Peace out! picked up on waivers... IDK
DL: THere are 3 solid if not better starters whose best trait is that they all are good run stuffers. Lawrence and Williams have shown some pass rushing ability, but its not their strength. Tomlinson has never shown much of a rush. A dynamic outside rusher would be a good thing here. But ok, maybe they can live without.
WR: Slayton, Shepard, Tate - Shepard's concussions are a serious concern, his future is in jeopardy, his family wants him to quit. Tate is 31, he is still solid slot receiver, but at 31 for how long, he at his age, he is unlikely to be here when this team contends, he is also overpaid. Slayton has shown ability, he may be solid starter. Still, with the age of Tate, the concussions of Shepard, and the hope that Slayton develops its not unreasonable to project that 2 out of 3 of those will not succeed, its a coin toss. If its a coin toss, a good GM better be planning for tails.
TE: Rhett Elison will almost certainly be cut loose. There is nobody on the roster that fills this position.
LT: Its Nate Solder... nuf said... Oh and he is 31 its gonna get worse. Team tried to ship him out, the league said, "uhhh. thanks but no thanks!", but there is no pipelin nobody on the roster to possible replace him
RT: Remmers is a FA, his play has been somewhat south of Meh...
C: Halapio.... He's just awful, could he stick as a backup on most other teams? IDK... The other choice is Pulley... So there's that...
That is 13 positions where a competent starter would be a huge upgrade. 1 where a stud would be nice.
But hey Reale01 says we only need 3 players to have a chance to win the division... So it must be true...
And the irony between his post and his handle is not lost on me.
Why not? DG declared that reports of Eli's decline were hogwash, or mularkey, or some folksy synonym of bullshit. He made decisions based upon that belief. Shouldn't they be a part of his assessment?
His clock started the day that DJ started his first game.
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Gettleman was supposed to fix what Jerry Reese and Marc Ross wrought for almost ten years. Is it the modern way that millennials think things can be fixed overnight.
I also don't get where DG is arrogant.
When you have to remind everyone about your resume every time you speak and make it a point to let everyone know that you're knowingly zigging where the numbers suggest you should zag, yes, that's fucking arrogance.
And it's not a millennial thing to expect the turnaround to be further along than it is - it's an NFL thing. The system is set up to help teams improve somewhat rapidly. Unless you take the approach of tearing the whole thing down to the studs and selling off your hardware for pennies on the dollar while you oscillate between building for today with building for tomorrow - in that case, nothing gets accomplished, you piss away a full season with a misdiagnosis of the roster, and you have an extended rebuild on your hands.
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How many here proclaiming how far the Giants are from winning, are the same posters, who were all in going forward with a 38 year old quarterback, who has been part of the losing you are sick off; even to the point you wanted the Giants to pass on Jones for the edge rushers.
Nice strawman you constructed there. I believe the argument went something along the lines of "why spend the #6 pick on a qb this year because there were questions concerning all of them in a relatively weak qb draft, when there were at least 4 qb's available for the 2020 draft and Manning was under contract for another year anyway. Take Josh Allen and get your qb from among the group coming out next year." These were for the most part folks who under no delusions about this being a good team this year.
+1. For the record I wanted Josh Rosen as QB - trading him for a 2nd and we can see DJones so far looks like the much better player (I wanted Oliver with the 6th pick and the 17th pick I wanted Dillard.).
But you are spot on with this. I think over the next year there is going to be some posts made trying to change the narrative over the past year or two and some others that will continue to blindly defend DG.
I can remember a post on here someone mentioning that most knew on here at BBI that they would stink anyways. Maybe but many -= much more than you'd think thought this team was a near .500 football team if not better. There was characterization that you're either a hater or miserable because if you felt you knew this team would stink you can't be anything other than that.
This has to be sarcasm. Thanks for the laugh.
Mara is scary because of fans like you.
Oh, well we'll look forward to that.
How close do you think the Giants will make it?
The Giants ARE far from winning...
I didn't like the Jones pick...
I wanted to wait until 2021 to get a QB...
I wanted Josh Allen so far Allen looks as good as advertised but given that...
On many posts now I have admitted that I was wrong about
Jones, no matter how he turns out he has justified the pick!
I have given kudos to DG for the pick!
I have been man enough to admit it.
What have you been man enough to admit?
joe - come on, where are you going with this stance?
You mean one of those Giants score late to make it look closer than it really was games?
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How many here proclaiming how far the Giants are from winning, are the same posters, who were all in going forward with a 38 year old quarterback, who has been part of the losing you are sick off; even to the point you wanted the Giants to pass on Jones for the edge rushers.
joe - come on, where are you going with this stance?
come on jimmy- you know where he is going with this. joe is one helluva classy poster. As much as he probably dislikes all the negativity he never goes over-the-top vs anyone - including me-- and I'm sure he probably wanted to. But he's a classy poster.
But he is also an optimist type of poster. Recently he made a post a few weeks ago stating why hadn't anyone considered GMEN could go 3-1 and be in the thick of the playoff hunt.
You'll rarely see much critical coming from joe. This post you know where he is coming from. It's a classy attempt as a dig against the negative posters. Not all negative is right. So this is his way of attacking lightly as he keeps an optimist view.
Quote:
How many here proclaiming how far the Giants are from winning, are the same posters, who were all in going forward with a 38 year old quarterback, who has been part of the losing you are sick off; even to the point you wanted the Giants to pass on Jones for the edge rushers.
The Giants ARE far from winning...
I didn't like the Jones pick...
I wanted to wait until 2021 to get a QB...
I wanted Josh Allen so far Allen looks as good as advertised but given that...
On many posts now I have admitted that I was wrong about
Jones, no matter how he turns out he has justified the pick!
I have given kudos to DG for the pick!
I have been man enough to admit it.
What have you been man enough to admit?
That's not "his thing." He's probably expecting a very good showing the next many weeks and a good draft and good pickups in FA and next year say how things are looking up.
Quote:
In comment 14657928 joeinpa said:
Quote:
How many here proclaiming how far the Giants are from winning, are the same posters, who were all in going forward with a 38 year old quarterback, who has been part of the losing you are sick off; even to the point you wanted the Giants to pass on Jones for the edge rushers.
The Giants ARE far from winning...
I didn't like the Jones pick...
I wanted to wait until 2021 to get a QB...
I wanted Josh Allen so far Allen looks as good as advertised but given that...
On many posts now I have admitted that I was wrong about
Jones, no matter how he turns out he has justified the pick!
I have given kudos to DG for the pick!
I have been man enough to admit it.
What have you been man enough to admit?
That's not "his thing." He's probably expecting a very good showing the next many weeks and a good draft and good pickups in FA and next year say how things are looking up.
ok
Quote:
In comment 14657928 joeinpa said:
Quote:
How many here proclaiming how far the Giants are from winning, are the same posters, who were all in going forward with a 38 year old quarterback, who has been part of the losing you are sick off; even to the point you wanted the Giants to pass on Jones for the edge rushers.
joe - come on, where are you going with this stance?
come on jimmy- you know where he is going with this. joe is one helluva classy poster. As much as he probably dislikes all the negativity he never goes over-the-top vs anyone - including me-- and I'm sure he probably wanted to. But he's a classy poster.
But he is also an optimist type of poster. Recently he made a post a few weeks ago stating why hadn't anyone considered GMEN could go 3-1 and be in the thick of the playoff hunt.
You'll rarely see much critical coming from joe. This post you know where he is coming from. It's a classy attempt as a dig against the negative posters. Not all negative is right. So this is his way of attacking lightly as he keeps an optimist view.
I do respect Joe's posts. What I despise though is lumping opinions of some broad set of posters to make a point. If there is one thing that is consistent on BBI, its we don't have some "same-store group" that can be quoted.
We have a myriad of variations in opinions, even ones that are directionally similar.
That's not "his thing." He's probably expecting a very good showing the next many weeks and a good draft and good pickups in FA and next year say how things are looking up.
I agree with you joe is a good poster...
That was a pretty provocative post, especially considering that I think the vast majority have come around on Jones, not his best moment.
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that Eli was the starting QB during the DG tenure.
Why not? DG declared that reports of Eli's decline were hogwash, or mularkey, or some folksy synonym of bullshit. He made decisions based upon that belief. Shouldn't they be a part of his assessment?
After hiring Shurmur, this is the biggest reason Gettleman should be fired. He completely bungled quarterback. Threw away two seasons.
Since letting go a Qb without another one in place sets up a very risky path forward not the least of which was a very unattractive place for any HC or Coordinators; what solution was available going back two years ago on the dates the contract deadlines had to be made?
1. Drafting a quarterback - we all know who the options were in 2018, and that we eventually landed on Jones in 2019
2. Trading for a young option. I listed the options many times over the last two years, and some have actually ended up becoming starting quarterbacks for varying reasons - I often listed guys like Brissett, Bridgewater, Rudolph, Driskel, Mullens, Sloter, Dobbs, and a couple others who surely could have been had in trade for less resources than we shelled out for Eli ($46M to go 5-13 in 2018 & 2019) and eventually Jones (#6 overall in 2019). In terms of resources allocated to the quarterback position these two years the Giants are surely at or near the top of the league, and we've seen the return for that investment.
This is not second guessing. I and others laid out numerous viable alternatives scenarios. The problem was that all of those scenarios included moving on from a team legend.
While you (if I'm understanding you correctly) fairly say that Gettleman was never going to move on from Eli until a proven alternative was in hand, he ended up being woefully wrong in that conviction. We lost games and he ended up handing the position to an unproven player anyway.
Given the mandate from ownership to play Eli, Gettleman's failure was his inability to move ownership off that foolish, foolish mandate.
How do you guys feel about that?
How do you guys feel about that?
We have a team run by a Politburo, and we're supposed to compete with well organized teams. It's a mess.
1) Owners and many professionals often don't take risks like dropping a QB before a new one is at least semi proven. Or agreeing to provide volume before the new plant is up. Or releasing products that are ideas. This is especially true when ownership is divided with shareholders and other owners
2) what was the cap hit for releasing him either of those two times?
3) I suspect, with no no no factual knowledge that ownership restricted the Eli option. I don't fault any GM for those kinds of restrictions. Owners do that to professional ranks all the time in many many businesses.
Id find fault with individual decisions like Stewart that I cant find a rationale that holds up. But the Eli play is one that I cant find too much fault with
Mara? Its speculation but I suspect Mara and or Tisch were not going to be shamed all the way to Eli's gold jacket. It was an emotional decision by guys who own for other reasons than winning at all costs. imo.
1) Owners and many professionals often don't take risks like dropping a QB before a new one is at least semi proven. Or agreeing to provide volume before the new plant is up. Or releasing products that are ideas. This is especially true when ownership is divided with shareholders and other owners
2) what was the cap hit for releasing him either of those two times?
3) I suspect, with no no no factual knowledge that ownership restricted the Eli option. I don't fault any GM for those kinds of restrictions. Owners do that to professional ranks all the time in many many businesses.
Id find fault with individual decisions like Stewart that I cant find a rationale that holds up. But the Eli play is one that I cant find too much fault with
Mara? Its speculation but I suspect Mara and or Tisch were not going to be shamed all the way to Eli's gold jacket. It was an emotional decision by guys who own for other reasons than winning at all costs. imo.
On #3 - do those same GMs make multiple public statements about how the decision was theirs and qualify it? Gettleman made more than a few comments about how Eli had plenty of game left, they were going to build around him, etc.
If Gettleman does go, I'd love to get that job. He's basically accountable for nothing - holes on the roster? Well, his predecessor left him holes. Paying a QB beyond his usefulness? Well, the owners forced that. FAs that weren't worth it? Well, everyone's bound to make a few mistakes. Seems nice to have a job where accountability isn't an issue.
1) Owners and many professionals often don't take risks like dropping a QB before a new one is at least semi proven. Or agreeing to provide volume before the new plant is up. Or releasing products that are ideas. This is especially true when ownership is divided with shareholders and other owners
2) what was the cap hit for releasing him either of those two times?
3) I suspect, with no no no factual knowledge that ownership restricted the Eli option. I don't fault any GM for those kinds of restrictions. Owners do that to professional ranks all the time in many many businesses.
Id find fault with individual decisions like Stewart that I cant find a rationale that holds up. But the Eli play is one that I cant find too much fault with
Mara? Its speculation but I suspect Mara and or Tisch were not going to be shamed all the way to Eli's gold jacket. It was an emotional decision by guys who own for other reasons than winning at all costs. imo.
I can't take too much time here, but in response to #1, that's exactly what happened: Eli was dropped after two games in favor of a completely untested, unproven rookie.
I can't recall the cap hit to cut Eli last year, but this year it would have been $6M. They're paying him $23M. So they paid him $17M to take the training camp reps from Jones, lose two starts, and sit on the bench. A horrific use of available resources; calling it professional is kind.
How do you guys feel about that?
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Before making the Williams trade? That was in the interview that just came out.
How do you guys feel about that?
why do you think Gettleman was hired in the first place? He knows “the way we do things” and that means consulting the two sperm recipients for their pro player personnel “acumen”
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Is going to be a lot closer than many of you think
Oh, well we'll look forward to that.
How close do you think the Giants will make it?
Look I have a stalker...How cute!
Quote:
That's not "his thing." He's probably expecting a very good showing the next many weeks and a good draft and good pickups in FA and next year say how things are looking up.
I agree with you joe is a good poster...
That was a pretty provocative post, especially considering that I think the vast majority have come around on Jones, not his best moment.
I guess I didn’t make my point well. I was suggesting that if anyone was opposed to taking a quarterback this season because they felt Giants might contend with Eli, it seems inconsistent to now suggest they are no where ready to turn things around.
You guys are right about my optimistic view though. I m usually ready for the next game and conjuring up images that they can win.
But I remember years like 1980, another in a long line of losing, and how one player changed all that. L. T.
Not suggesting there is another L. T. On the horizon, but it does remind of how one or two playmakers can raise the level of those around them.
Back in March, please name who on this board or in the NFL who would have but money behind Daniel Joes starting by game 2???
Who thought there would be any acceptable QB at 6, or if Jones was a 1st rounder, or if he could play much or be ready to play by the second game?
Back in March, you thought the 6th pick should be Hockenson.
That's when the decision had to be made.
The prior year, once it was not Mayfield, the rest are unproven, the OL was even worse than this year by a lot or Lamar Jackson was available at the slot he was available.
Now, both you and I favored Lamar Jackson, but many a team and many a person would still see that as a risky choice...much less in March of that year when just about everyone saw it as a risky choice.
imo, these decisions are not so one sided as to be proof of incompetence. Nor is the record so far proof he is a good GM. imo
Conversely, I think PS provides a ton of clear evidence that slants to proof of a HC that isn't going to get us past a playoff game
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In comment 14658197 giantstock said:
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That's not "his thing." He's probably expecting a very good showing the next many weeks and a good draft and good pickups in FA and next year say how things are looking up.
I agree with you joe is a good poster...
That was a pretty provocative post, especially considering that I think the vast majority have come around on Jones, not his best moment.
I guess I didn’t make my point well. I was suggesting that if anyone was opposed to taking a quarterback this season because they felt Giants might contend with Eli, it seems inconsistent to now suggest they are no where ready to turn things around.
You guys are right about my optimistic view though. I m usually ready for the next game and conjuring up images that they can win.
But I remember years like 1980, another in a long line of losing, and how one player changed all that. L. T.
Not suggesting there is another L. T. On the horizon, but it does remind of how one or two playmakers can raise the level of those around them.
Well, I was never really optimistic about this season. I could see a criticism of me, that I was never optimistic, the season is bad just like I thought, so why am I complaining? To that I would say, I thought it would be bad, but I wanted to see improvement. There is no improvement, and I have always been disappointed how the OL has been handled.
We have morphed into one of those teams (and fan base) that accepts losing. We watch the opening kickoff knowing we are likely going to lose.
I believe ownership accepts losing at this point too. They would never admit it and of course they would prefer to win. However, nobody in the front office is throwing chairs across the room.
The team has officially become a bottom feeder and the rest of the league an fan base knows it. We are the Cleveland Browns at this point.
The team is a cash cow that is supporting a very large Mara family. They are going to do just enough to keep you interested.
John Mara could possibly read this and say "bullshit, I am doing everything I can to help the team win". Well, John.. maybe that is part of the problem. What you need to do is NOT tinker with the team and turn every decision over to a professional.
If the Giants freed themselves from the false ultamatum of Manning or rookie, things go more logically.
There are only 2 viable scenarios and both make management look silly.
1) Management evaluated Manning after the 2017 campaign and foolishly thought he was the type of player with enough left to build a contender around
2) Management evaluated Manning after the 20017 campaign and thought he wasn't the type of player with enough talent to build a contender around, and still made the financial and personnel decisions to continue the charade
But I remember years like 1980, another in a long line of losing, and how one player changed all that. L. T.
Not suggesting there is another L. T. On the horizon, but it does remind of how one or two playmakers can raise the level of those around them.
It was more than just LT Joe. We both lived through those years. Remember the 70s? Those teams and the Giants of the past 7 years are basically the same. Poor management from the top to the bottom and we as fans expected the team to lose.
When LT came here changes were already in motion. The Mara's were no longer making football decisions. Better coaches were being put in place. Then, Parcells started to cut or trade players who were not on board regardless as to how good they were. Losing was simply unacceptable.
So, you think they should or could have cut Eli and brought in a backup QB (ie Bridgewater) to be our starter?
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The Giants didn't have to replace Manning with the future going into the 2018 campaign. They could have filled the spot with a replacement level quarterback at a deep discount, and proceeded patiently.
So, you think they should or could have cut Eli and brought in a backup QB (ie Bridgewater) to be our starter?
Sure, why not?
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.
Mara is scary because of fans like you.
I know Mara wants to win. I know he means well. I’m not knocking the guy’s intentions or even his character as an owner. Shit I’m probably the biggest nyg apologist on this board. I just think Mara’s decision making these last few years has been poor. Until that changes I’ll be leery. And his old man wasn’t any better for too long of a stretch. The Mara’s have historically been extremely hit or miss. As a matter of fact no pro franchise has been more topsy turvy than the NY Football Giants. The Mara’s are right smack in the middle of that vortex. Every giants fan should be worried. The guy fired Tom coughlin for Ben mcadoo.
And call me crazy but I’m perfectly content with Eli as a mentor/backup. If he wants to remain in that role next year I’d have no issue with it assuming he’ll take a contract in line with that role.
Hopefully the sentimental days are behind ownership and/or management.
Hopefully the sentimental days are behind ownership and/or management.
Agree it didn’t advance anything, but he turned out to be nothing more than a placeholder until they were able to get the guy who could (Jones). Elis presence didn’t set us back near as much as rushing and getting the wrong guy would have. Bill correctly points out someone had to play QB and you generally don’t move on from whatever your best option is until you have a replacement. Downgrading to someone like Fitz just for the sake of moving on doesn’t make sense unless there’s a good use of the money saved. Had they used that money poorly like they have on probably half the FA’s they’ve signed over 2 years they actually would have ended up setting themselves back even more. Though I’m sure everyone on BBI would have only used the $ on guys like Shaq Barrett.
We still had Lauletta on the roster; if the intent was to develop someone behind Eli he still made sense. That avenue was damaged in part by Shurmur's inexcusable treatment of him in 2018, and their stupid insistence on playing Eli after the season was over at 1-7.
Gettleman is being cited by many as having performed well in the early stages of a multi-year rebuild, but there are numerous examples of asset mismanagement - the most blatant of which has been the handling of the quarterback position from day one.
And none of that is hindsight. I was saying it since Gettleman was hired, and the situation has played out more or less as I thought it would: a failure.
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Paying Eli Manning 45M dollars the last two years did absolutely nothing to advance the Giants toward a championship.
Hopefully the sentimental days are behind ownership and/or management.
Agree it didn’t advance anything, but he turned out to be nothing more than a placeholder until they were able to get the guy who could (Jones). Elis presence didn’t set us back near as much as rushing and getting the wrong guy would have. Bill correctly points out someone had to play QB and you generally don’t move on from whatever your best option is until you have a replacement. Downgrading to someone like Fitz just for the sake of moving on doesn’t make sense unless there’s a good use of the money saved. Had they used that money poorly like they have on probably half the FA’s they’ve signed over 2 years they actually would have ended up setting themselves back even more. Though I’m sure everyone on BBI would have only used the $ on guys like Shaq Barrett.
I don't agree with any of this.
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In comment 14658339 christian said:
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The Giants didn't have to replace Manning with the future going into the 2018 campaign. They could have filled the spot with a replacement level quarterback at a deep discount, and proceeded patiently.
So, you think they should or could have cut Eli and brought in a backup QB (ie Bridgewater) to be our starter?
Sure, why not?
Right.... and the meltdown here if we did that. Mara lived through the over-reaction from the fans when Eli was benched for ONE GAME in a meaningless season for a backup QB. Imagine actually cutting him for a backup.
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In comment 14658341 EricJ said:
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In comment 14658339 christian said:
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The Giants didn't have to replace Manning with the future going into the 2018 campaign. They could have filled the spot with a replacement level quarterback at a deep discount, and proceeded patiently.
So, you think they should or could have cut Eli and brought in a backup QB (ie Bridgewater) to be our starter?
Sure, why not?
Right.... and the meltdown here if we did that. Mara lived through the over-reaction from the fans when Eli was benched for ONE GAME in a meaningless season for a backup QB. Imagine actually cutting him for a backup.
That's kind of the whole problem. Even if you don't think Eli should have been cut (and I understand the thinking from those who opposed the idea), the idea that Mara, or anyone else in the Giants front office, would make decisions based on fear of overreactions from any segment of the fanbase is a frightening (yet extremely likely) possibility.
The franchise let things decay around Eli until is was obvious that Eli had also decayed (obvious for some). Then they couldn't get themselves to clean house so they brought in an old friend to help them right the ship.
But unfortunately he also seemed to get sucked up into the slow steady meltdown process amongst many, but not all, of his decisions...
Based on a problem solving givens you assigned that was financially logical.
But over weighing any one dimension of the decision calculus produces Jones vs Hockenson. For that matter all these critiques.
Decisions any GM makes need to consider overall long term financially sound cap management, pay vs performance per person, some design for competing ( "We are going to over spend our cap on these competitive advantage unit or this performer differentiation"), some + or - projected contribution to the likely health of the team ( oft injured vs the durable), etc.
And what is available right now this minute?
Lastly a pure financial decision ( I already spent on Eli so I cant over commit on another QB and must draft a TE in the 6 slot even though I got killed for drafting a RB in the 2 slot by some fans on BBI) forgets that absent an attractive QB to build on for a new coach...I am consigned to very poor choices if I needed a new coach.
Before you claim a new coach needs his own QB choice ( which is a pretty debatable stance imo) lets capture the main point I hope to articulate: The GM job requires fluid calculation of many factors.
What I see a lot of is posters picking a different dominate factor each and every time to apply to how they would have done things differently.
Too many start with a fixed end in mind: " the GM sucks" he didn't even think about XX and WW and VV" those are then important factors. He is lost"
Next decision:
" He sucks" . While some stupid posters claim its a good trade on the XX, WW and VV; they forget how lost he is on AA and CC and GG. Totally stupid and so are those who argue otherwise"
This way of torturing all data into confessing a pre determined conclusion leads to:
" The Giants are unimaginative and are stuck in the mud taking no chances to be great. We will never be any better under the GM"
"He traded a 3rd and 5th for a chance to have a very good DL? He sucks. why would he take a chance like that when we need every draft pick we can so we can take a 16% chances on a depth player. We will never be any better under this GM"
Again, im not defending DG. There are not yet enough terrible choices versus good ones to determine where he is on the scale of god to bad given the bad set of choices a cap hell talent hell mess.
And before we jump to: "instant turnarounds happen in the NFl ( yes they do. A small percent of the time)" that's not what the majority of the data suggests. The majority of the data suggests teams with winning records over ten years are on the thin end of a bell shaped curve with the preponderance of teams ( an therefore GMS) stuck in the middle at .400-.550 win loss records for long periods of time.
Once again, I don't know yet about the GM. Decisions at that job are murky and take longer to play out. Imo, the HC has more then enough clear data on tape to start planning who comes next. I don't buy that turning over the play calling to a true OC isn't more muddle than relief from his propensity for bad decisions and poor preparation and tendency to freeze under time pressure.
Good talking to you. Take care
but I get the sentiment... :-)
What happens when I post after waking instead of getting 2 cups of coffee
Whats more we seem to produce really unwatchable football.
We don't lose with competent coaching and not enough talent. nor talent vastly better than incompetent coaching. Prior to this season we lose mis-firing on all cylinders.
Im watching this season to figure out if Jones is just ok, a turnover machine, a top ten Qb or a top 5 someday. As with all rookie QBs on bad teams, this season is like watching paint dry. Its why we are already talking about next year
Some people here just would rather be right about their opinions than GASP change their mind because that would totally be admitting defeat. Smart people make bad initial decision all the time, but what separates the men from the boys is being able to admit you made a mistake, cut your losses instead of doubling down, especially if it isn't totally apparent.
For example, I am totally convinced now that PS can't be a Super Bowl winning coach. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he'd learn from his piss poor in game management problems with Browns, but he hasn't. He doesn't add enough to his side of the ball like Reid does, makes way too many poor in game decisions dating back to his Browns days (and I'm not talking about all the dummies who insist going for 2 is an awful decision no matter what unless you absolutely need the points), and he just seems to be a poor communicator and leader overall.
I guess the in game decision making could get better, but after 4 years I have little hope and I doubt he is going to wake up a be an inspiring head football coach. So that leads us with option 1 - which I could see as feasible, especially with DJ under center now, maybe we can 30ppg our way into a Superbowl victory, but I just feel that once we get good, which I believe is next year, he is just going to find ways to lose games with his decision making. If that happens I'll gladly eat fucking crow about the guy, or if he suddenly starts to get better with the in game decision making I'll be like hey the light when on for this guy, and won't eviscerate him over one mistake.
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In comment 14658380 christian said:
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Paying Eli Manning 45M dollars the last two years did absolutely nothing to advance the Giants toward a championship.
Hopefully the sentimental days are behind ownership and/or management.
Agree it didn�t advance anything, but he turned out to be nothing more than a placeholder until they were able to get the guy who could (Jones). Elis presence didn�t set us back near as much as rushing and getting the wrong guy would have. Bill correctly points out someone had to play QB and you generally don�t move on from whatever your best option is until you have a replacement. Downgrading to someone like Fitz just for the sake of moving on doesn�t make sense unless there�s a good use of the money saved. Had they used that money poorly like they have on probably half the FA�s they�ve signed over 2 years they actually would have ended up setting themselves back even more. Though I�m sure everyone on BBI would have only used the $ on guys like Shaq Barrett.
I don't agree with any of this.
Yeah, it’s the old “it’s ok that they fucked up because they would have fucked something else anyway “ argument.
Not exactly confidence inspiring
I understand that his main function this year was the smooth transition from Eli and the development of Jones. Near as any of us can tell, that main contribution is going well.
But I think PS is leaving as many plays on the field per game as any Giant in that particular game.
Whats more, I think the big decisions in winnable games that turn out to be the correct choice is a negative percentage.
I have not yet seen a game since he became HC that we won on game plan.
While I see a team that plays hard for him, I don't think that last into next year.
I get that the logical thing to do is to get two Coordinators off season so you can pick one for HC someday and maybe that's the way to get new blood but I don't know how that solves in game decisions.
If Williams plays up to potential and Jones progresses, I can see how we become a more attractive destination for coaching talent.
By next year, there is enough talent that coaching is worth 2-4 wins a year. After QB, and then after two decent average lines, that's the swing factor
I'm concerned a guy who is a pro player personnel executive by trade (and a good one) has been so wrong when acquiring and evaluating pros.
- wrong Manning had playoff quality play left in 18
- wrong Manning had anything left in 19
- wrong Bathea had anything left
- wrong Stewart had anything left
- wrong Omameh was worth an investment
- wrong Solder was in the same zip code as a top player
- wrong OBJ could operate professionally in a culture first environment and re-signed him
- wrong on Kareem Martin
- wrong on Ogletree's value
Admitting mistakes is an admirable quality. Avoiding mistakes is compensatable quality.
I’ve seen this referenced with Jones, but I don’t see it referenced with Mayfield & Darnold who very well may have new coaches next year.
Well, after the McAdoo firing, the Philly game happened. It was enough for everyone in the building to hope for another run with Eli. It was likely an organizational decision & every move associated with trying to win that year did not work. With that said, Jones looks promising & 2020 will be a very crucial offseason for Gettleman.
With all the outcry over the Barkley pick at 2 with regards to positional value. Would everyone feel better if that pick was Rosen?
They deserve all the criticisms, legitimate or not. We are practically on the same level as Browns. We may not realize it but rest of the league definitely take us for laughing stocks.
If some fans are not happy wasting their Sunday afternoons on a lousy product, let them complain, what’s the big deal?
With all the outcry over the Barkley pick at 2 with regards to positional value. Would everyone feel better if that pick was Rosen?
did it make you feel better to post this thought-provoking nugget?
Probably not. But this plays into the fallacy the Giants had to pick a QB in 2018 or stick with Manning for two more years.
The Giants very easily could have cut Manning, picked Nelson, picked Braden Smith, signed a stop gap QB, and looked to 2019 to pick a QB. New GM, new coach, it was the perfect time to hard refresh.
The story of 2018 has turned into a myth where Gettleman had no options, which is comically untrue.
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But I remember years like 1980, another in a long line of losing, and how one player changed all that. L. T.
Not suggesting there is another L. T. On the horizon, but it does remind of how one or two playmakers can raise the level of those around them.
It was more than just LT Joe. We both lived through those years. Remember the 70s? Those teams and the Giants of the past 7 years are basically the same. Poor management from the top to the bottom and we as fans expected the team to lose.
When LT came here changes were already in motion. The Mara's were no longer making football decisions. Better coaches were being put in place. Then, Parcells started to cut or trade players who were not on board regardless as to how good they were. Losing was simply unacceptable.
Yep that s a good pt. Guess I m more hopeful than many that Gettleman is the guy.
Seems like a pretty low bar
It's too easy to have all of the information we have no and say NYG should have done x, y, and z in the 2018 draft. It's an exercise in futility, and yet, we do it on a daily basis.
We already know now how a lot of those players are playing, where they were drafted, and have information we did not have at the time. We don't get to just look at the board and cherry pick the best possible yield for NYG and leave everything else unchanged.
The world doesn't work that way, and neither does football.
So far the results are pretty terrible toward those three goals, with a corresponding W/L record to match.
It's too easy to have all of the information we have no and say NYG should have done x, y, and z in the 2018 draft. It's an exercise in futility, and yet, we do it on a daily basis.
We already know now how a lot of those players are playing, where they were drafted, and have information we did not have at the time. We don't get to just look at the board and cherry pick the best possible yield for NYG and leave everything else unchanged.
The world doesn't work that way, and neither does football.
Completely agree - and the worst part is most are beyond complaining about the players picked since they've actually been good picks and have moved on to intangible arguments about "maximizing draft capital" and "cap flexibility".
Put me in the category of sick and tired of losing, happy to have Jones/Barkley/Williams/Lawrence/Peppers et al, and hopeful they can turn the tide. I'm not optimistic about the coaching but that's another story.
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I'm almost as sick and tired of these hindsight GM 'suggestions' as I am all the losing.
It's too easy to have all of the information we have no and say NYG should have done x, y, and z in the 2018 draft. It's an exercise in futility, and yet, we do it on a daily basis.
We already know now how a lot of those players are playing, where they were drafted, and have information we did not have at the time. We don't get to just look at the board and cherry pick the best possible yield for NYG and leave everything else unchanged.
The world doesn't work that way, and neither does football.
Completely agree - and the worst part is most are beyond complaining about the players picked since they've actually been good picks and have moved on to intangible arguments about "maximizing draft capital" and "cap flexibility".
Put me in the category of sick and tired of losing, happy to have Jones/Barkley/Williams/Lawrence/Peppers et al, and hopeful they can turn the tide. I'm not optimistic about the coaching but that's another story.
Yep, and many of the 'we made a grave mistake in taking Barkley over Darnold (or Rosen/Allen...)' group have already shifted into 'well, we could have taken Nelson in a trade down' now that Darnold is having such a miserable 2019.
Easy to do now.
Coaching staff is clearly an issue; that's one thing most of the fans seem to agree on.
It's too easy to have all of the information we have no and say NYG should have done x, y, and z in the 2018 draft. It's an exercise in futility, and yet, we do it on a daily basis.
We already know now how a lot of those players are playing, where they were drafted, and have information we did not have at the time. We don't get to just look at the board and cherry pick the best possible yield for NYG and leave everything else unchanged.
The world doesn't work that way, and neither does football.
Would you agree the good GMs make more good decisions than bad in the draft and veteran acquisitions? And that these decisions are at the heart of winning and losing?
Would you agree ownership should judge and ultimately retain management based on having made more good than bad decisions?
Hopefully ownership is doing this type of second guessing exhaustively.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I haven't shifted or whitewashed any of my views on the 2018 draft. What I felt before it is consistent with what I feel now, and IMO what is playing out in reality.
I'm not the one that's needed sense talked to him.
I'm concerned a guy who is a pro player personnel executive by trade (and a good one) has been so wrong when acquiring and evaluating pros.
- wrong Manning had playoff quality play left in 18
- wrong Manning had anything left in 19
- wrong Bathea had anything left
- wrong Stewart had anything left
- wrong Omameh was worth an investment
- wrong Solder was in the same zip code as a top player
- wrong OBJ could operate professionally in a culture first environment and re-signed him
- wrong on Kareem Martin
- wrong on Ogletree's value
Admitting mistakes is an admirable quality. Avoiding mistakes is compensatable quality.
+1(000000000000000000000000)
Too much credit is given to admitting mistakes." His getting Jones might alleviate all of it eventually- with a start by hitting a home run 2020 draft and FA pickups. But way too many "my bads."
Do you think Barkley was a good pick? The guy has as many yards + TD's + big plays as any player in the sport since he came into the NFL and some talk about it like he's Cedric Jones.
Do you think Jones was a good pick? Well i'm sorry to tell you even though he may be better than the more popular picks like Haskins and Rosen, they stuck with Eli too long.
Do you like Dexter Lawrence? Well Josh Allen would have been better.
And in FA/trades Gettleman seems to have done much better this year - Zeitler has been solid, Golden has been a good pickup, Tate has played well, and even Remmers/Mayo have been decent.
Things are far from perfect but IMO the talent level on both sides of the ball has gotten better and now more of the problem is clearly the guys on the sidelines not doing a good enough job (as opposed to the GM in the press box).
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I'm almost as sick and tired of these hindsight GM 'suggestions' as I am all the losing.
It's too easy to have all of the information we have no and say NYG should have done x, y, and z in the 2018 draft. It's an exercise in futility, and yet, we do it on a daily basis.
We already know now how a lot of those players are playing, where they were drafted, and have information we did not have at the time. We don't get to just look at the board and cherry pick the best possible yield for NYG and leave everything else unchanged.
The world doesn't work that way, and neither does football.
Would you agree the good GMs make more good decisions than bad in the draft and veteran acquisitions? And that these decisions are at the heart of winning and losing?
Would you agree ownership should judge and ultimately retain management based on having made more good than bad decisions?
Hopefully ownership is doing this type of second guessing exhaustively.
Well, yeah - this is pretty much all falling squarely into the 'no shit' category. Management making good decisions should be retained, management making consistently poor ones should not.
I'm not finding too many decisions of the 'bad' variety as far as drafting goes when it comes to Gettleman. The bulk of the bad decisions seem to have come in the way of FA signings and cap management. So, it's a mixed bag. Where do we decide to draw the line?
An outstanding football player like Saquon Barkley should really not be pointed to as the problem with a football team - yet, we keep wrongly going back to him and identifying him as such - as if drafting Quinton Nelson 2nd overall was going to be the magic elixir for the Giants.
I'm just growing tired of this same discussion being beaten to death on a weekly basis here. All last year, it was Darnold (or QB) that we fucked up by passing on in 2018. Now, it's conveniently changed to Nelson.
And yes, some people - including me - would loved to have drafted Nelson. But, we didn't. And no matter how many times we revisit this discussion, it changes nothing. Quinton Nelson doesn't do anything to address this defense - which is still not good.
Never mind that Gettleman helped hire Shurmur, and reportedly made at least one major personnel mistake (signing Beckham) on Shurmur's recommendation.
Blaming Shurmur for everything accomplished the goal of identifying a culprit while being able to maintain the illusion that the ship is still well run. While Shurmur most certainly is incompetent, he isn't the sole reason this team is so dreadful.
I wanted and wish the Giants had picked Nelson at no. 2 because as we see, premium lineman are getting to be unicorns in this league. I don't think picking Barkley was a tragedy, I just don't think it was good value. I don't think it's the no brainer some describe it to be.
I loved and love the Jones pick. I loved and love the Lawrence pick.
All things considered I'm not sure eating Vernon's guaranteed money and taking on Zeitler's big salary has landed the Giants in that much better of a position than if the Giants had just retained Brown. I think Zeitler is living a little on rep right now, and the Giants run game was remarkably good last year when Brown entered the lineup.
It's too easy to have all of the information we have no and say NYG should have done x, y, and z in the 2018 draft. It's an exercise in futility, and yet, we do it on a daily basis.
We already know now how a lot of those players are playing, where they were drafted, and have information we did not have at the time. We don't get to just look at the board and cherry pick the best possible yield for NYG and leave everything else unchanged.
The world doesn't work that way, and neither does football.
The problem with your post here is that at times when someone complains about DG the reply is "what would you have done? (Implying there was no other option.)" Or if you just complain the reply is "Well I don't see any answers from you" or "There were no other answers and we had to do it."
You can't have it both ways here. If you don't agree with the complaining you naturally don't believe the ones complaining have the right option. And if you are complaining you either have an idea what you wanted done differently or the one who isn't complaining asks for an explanation for your counter view.
This is why in part you have this board. To discuss these type of things. It just sounds like from your post that you don't want to hear any complaining. If you do, then at least in some part you have to discuss what/how you would have done it differently.
There's too much grey area to make it all so cut and dry.
My view of Gettleman is basically what I said above. I think the draft has been more good than bad; there's a good amount of players drafted in the last 2 years that seem like they're starting-caliber players or can help to some degree. Not many of them look like blown or wasted picks.
But, his FA signings and cap management have been poor.
So, it's a mixed bag - he's doing some good things, some not good things. Shurmur shouldn't get all of the blame while Gettleman gets none of it.
There are so many different aspects to it, though - I don't think we can quite simplify things to that degree where it's Shurmur = Bad, Gettleman = Good.
To be clear, Shurmur (and Bettcher) sucking donkey balls is 100% a mark against Gettleman. Possibly the biggest mistake his made since getting hired here. But it's part of the mixed bag of making probably over 100 personnel decisions in the last 2 years. Some will work out, some won't. Getting the QB right was the most important one and fortunately that's looking good right now (which Shurmur deserves some credit for since he's a QB guy even if it does turn out he's a shitty HC).
2. Decisions about Eli were made partially due to the over reaction by his benching a couple of years ago. The team at that time looked like they were ready to make that decision Christian is talking about BUT the paying customers had an issue with it.
3. The whole thing really cannot be fully evaluated until we see how Jones develops.
4. Nobody has suggested what other QB in the league was available AND willing to play for this team.
* I mention #4 because there is the idea here that if there is a player out there, the Giants can just sign him. I truly believe the Giants made offers to other free agents in the past who simply did not want to play for this team. Whitworth is one that comes to mind.
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I'm almost as sick and tired of these hindsight GM 'suggestions' as I am all the losing.
It's too easy to have all of the information we have no and say NYG should have done x, y, and z in the 2018 draft. It's an exercise in futility, and yet, we do it on a daily basis.
We already know now how a lot of those players are playing, where they were drafted, and have information we did not have at the time. We don't get to just look at the board and cherry pick the best possible yield for NYG and leave everything else unchanged.
The world doesn't work that way, and neither does football.
The problem with your post here is that at times when someone complains about DG the reply is "what would you have done? (Implying there was no other option.)" Or if you just complain the reply is "Well I don't see any answers from you" or "There were no other answers and we had to do it."
You can't have it both ways here. If you don't agree with the complaining you naturally don't believe the ones complaining have the right option. And if you are complaining you either have an idea what you wanted done differently or the one who isn't complaining asks for an explanation for your counter view.
This is why in part you have this board. To discuss these type of things. It just sounds like from your post that you don't want to hear any complaining. If you do, then at least in some part you have to discuss what/how you would have done it differently.
Complaining is fine when it's sincere or being done without the benefit of hindsight.
Not when it's taking known data and rearranging a POV to conveniently work and make sense now that we're privy to things we weren't at the time - which is what a lot of people are doing. And, it's easy to do.
We know which players have looked good in the early going in 2018/19 now - so, all we need to do is take the draft results from either one, identify good players at our own positions of need, and then say "we should have drafted him instead!"
Boy, that's hard.
I've already shared opinions of things I would have done differently.
I wanted the Giants to draft Josh Allen @ 6 this year. I wanted a Barkley/Lamar Jackson pair in 2018. I liked Quinton Nelson a ton, considered him a blue chipper and said I'd absolutely be on board with NYG taking him.
I'd be happy to find these posts that weren't made after the fact and share them with you if you'd like.
I was okay with drafting Saquon Barkley where we did and still am. I haven't pivoted there. I considered him an elite prospect along with a few others in 2018 and said I wanted to make sure we got one of those guys. We can argue positional value until the cows come home, but we did wind up getting one of those elite prospects.
2. Decisions about Eli were made partially due to the over reaction by his benching a couple of years ago. The team at that time looked like they were ready to make that decision Christian is talking about BUT the paying customers had an issue with it.
3. The whole thing really cannot be fully evaluated until we see how Jones develops.
4. Nobody has suggested what other QB in the league was available AND willing to play for this team.
* I mention #4 because there is the idea here that if there is a player out there, the Giants can just sign him. I truly believe the Giants made offers to other free agents in the past who simply did not want to play for this team. Whitworth is one that comes to mind.
#4. I must have mentioned possible trade targets a million times, even on this thread.
Drafts - Jones, Lawrence, Barkley, Connelly look real good, not a lot of bad. Beal may have been a wasted pick but I guess we'll see soon enough.
Trades - Zeitler good, Ogletree bad, JPP good, OBJ looking good, Leonard Williams TBD.
FA - Solder bad, M. Golden very good, G. Tate good, Kareem Martin bad, Jon Stewart bad, Remmers ok.
Coach - this looks awful right now. Shurmur has done ok with the offense and the rookie QB, but the defense is a dumpster fire. Fortunately changing coaches is easier than changing players.
To me it's pretty simple, he's gotten some big decisions right and I see progress in the right direction with the roster. The drafts have been the best positive, especially the Jones decision, coaching hires the biggest negative. He needs to get the coaching figured out this offseason or he may not get another one even with the good drafting.
That's the bottom line. The rest is conjecture and rationalization.
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1. Eli was basically DONE for a few years now. He has not elevated the team in a very long time.
2. Decisions about Eli were made partially due to the over reaction by his benching a couple of years ago. The team at that time looked like they were ready to make that decision Christian is talking about BUT the paying customers had an issue with it.
3. The whole thing really cannot be fully evaluated until we see how Jones develops.
4. Nobody has suggested what other QB in the league was available AND willing to play for this team.
* I mention #4 because there is the idea here that if there is a player out there, the Giants can just sign him. I truly believe the Giants made offers to other free agents in the past who simply did not want to play for this team. Whitworth is one that comes to mind.
#4. I must have mentioned possible trade targets a million times, even on this thread.
Honest question, at this point isn't it a lot more significant that Jones looks to be a better option than pretty much all the other options over the last 2 years, than to lament not choosing those other options?
I don't remember your list specifically but I recall names like Josh Rosen and Mason Rudolph and possibly even Brissett being discussed generally. Do you not agree that Jones looks like a better option for the future? Or see how acquiring a different QB prior to drafting Jones may have led to not drafting Jones?
I think the Lions nabbed someone from NE as their GM to pair with Patricia (they still pissed away a ton of money in FA - very anti-Patriots).
Do I need to even get into John Dorsey? Funny, the national media loves Dorsey and mocks Gettleman.
I liked Riddick until he revealed what his plan was going to be.
Scott Pioli? Wasn’t he a disaster in KC?
I’m not saying Gettleman has done great, but he hasn’t been a complete disaster (unlike Shurmur). Bashing Gettleman for the Solder contract is easy to do with the benefit of hindsight, but in real time most people liked that signing.
The issue is GM/HC do not generally get the security needed to build a program. They get desperate and make moves to sacrifice the long term for the short term. I do think a better coach/program builder is the most pressing need.
That's the bottom line. The rest is conjecture and rationalization.
Heading into this season Kyle Shanahan and John Lynch were 10-22. That was their 2 year bottom line. The rest was conjecture and rationalization, though I'd imagine now some of that rationalization looks prescient.
And in FA/trades Gettleman seems to have done much better this year - Zeitler has been solid, Golden has been a good pickup, Tate has played well, and even Remmers/Mayo have been decent.
The problem is in part some of you want to focus on those that think DG has made ALL bad moves. ANd in this offseaosn many call some of us haters or miserable and make up shit like "we'd rather watch he team lose so we could be right."
The fact is some us figured the team would stink and they have. It runs out we were right. Nearly most of us shouldn't be vilified for it. But then when psoters such as yourself double-down with stuff like "Remmers has been decent." Certainly SY and Eric don't agree with you.
You may disagree with posters such as jcn and I for example with out prior discussion on Cooper and the post you made about Eli and now this about Remmers -- imo you're going to have many of us label you as a homer and a DG apologist. I don;t agree with most of what you say since yesterday and today.
Even your comments of "Mayo" -- I find desperate to find something. Right now Mayo is a backup ILB. You want an attaboy for that? Okay attaboy for getting a backup ILB. But our team still sucks, doesn't it? And without some big moves in FA (I count LW a FA move. As well as we need ot fill Golden) among other spots - the team is going to suck again next year.
ANd if you think Remmers is decent -- then maybe you feel he should be re-signed as a starter? If he is decent and we have a good RB and good QB and Dg has decent enough with WR';s then why cant GMEN run the ball better?
Never mind that Gettleman helped hire Shurmur, and reportedly made at least one major personnel mistake (signing Beckham) on Shurmur's recommendation.
Blaming Shurmur for everything accomplished the goal of identifying a culprit while being able to maintain the illusion that the ship is still well run. While Shurmur most certainly is incompetent, he isn't the sole reason this team is so dreadful.
How much foresight did it take to see Shurmur's track record as a HC was abysmal and a danger signal? How much foresight did it take to see that guys like Stewart or Bethea wouldn't have much left? How bad was the evaluation of someone like Halapio and how much foresight did it take to figure a guy who had bounced around between several teams and ended up in a club league would be troublesome as a starting center? How much adverse information on guys like Solder or Zeitler or Ogletree was ignored in favor of a happy narrative that they were all solid players?
Whether you like Barkley/Jones or not and having nothing to do with foresight, these are not signs of a well-run or effective organization.
I'm glad that Jones looks like he can play. I liked him early.
But I care less about developing a quarterback than I do winning games. From what I see, even if Jones turns out to be good it won't matter because the people running the show aren't equipped to build a winning program.
Yeah we got to Jones, but the asset allocation to get to him was atrocious and indicative of major organizational dysfunction.
Honest question, at this point isn't it a lot more significant that Jones looks to be a better option than pretty much all the other options over the last 2 years, than to lament not choosing those other options?
The performance review needs to take into to account the Giants pissed away 45M dollars on two crap seasons with Manning as well.
Being a Super Bowl champion general manager requires making an overwhelming majority of right decisions on personnel and coaching in multiple successive years.
The goal isn't average -- it's a championship.
Getting one move right for every move you get wrong is not how a championship-level team is built.
That's how an 7-9 team is built, which would be aspirational for this trajectory right now.
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Honest question, at this point isn't it a lot more significant that Jones looks to be a better option than pretty much all the other options over the last 2 years, than to lament not choosing those other options?
The performance review needs to take into to account the Giants pissed away 45M dollars on two crap seasons with Manning as well.
Being a Super Bowl champion general manager requires making an overwhelming majority of right decisions on personnel and coaching in multiple successive years.
The goal isn't average -- it's a championship.
Getting one move right for every move you get wrong is not how a championship-level team is built.
That's how an 7-9 team is built, which would be aspirational for this trajectory right now.
We have come full circle. Yes it's great to have Jones, but they wasted too much time/money with Eli. And the cycle continues.
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Gettleman and Shurmur have, unless something changes, put together a program that's going to end up about 10-24 in their first two seasons. They've been pathetic at home (I think they've failed to cover in their last 5 home games) and pathetic in the division.
That's the bottom line. The rest is conjecture and rationalization.
Heading into this season Kyle Shanahan and John Lynch were 10-22. That was their 2 year bottom line. The rest was conjecture and rationalization, though I'd imagine now some of that rationalization looks prescient.
If the Giants start next season 8-0 with this leadership I will gladly admit to being wrong.
If anyone here saw them being as good as they've been so far in 2019 coming off their 2018, I'd certainly shake their hand on some outstanding foresight.
I wouldn't bet on NYG being in their shoes at this point next year, but I think it's also worth acknowledging that the general consensus around SF at this point last year probably wasn't a whole lot more favorable than what it is for NYG right now.
The 49ers were 1-7 @ the midway point last year. Even worse than our current 2-6.
I'm glad that Jones looks like he can play. I liked him early.
But I care less about developing a quarterback than I do winning games. From what I see, even if Jones turns out to be good it won't matter because the people running the show aren't equipped to build a winning program.
Yeah we got to Jones, but the asset allocation to get to him was atrocious and indicative of major organizational dysfunction.
JMO but you're being hyperbolic about the process. I don't think there's anything atrocious in terms of asset allocation about drafting a young QB who looks like he may be the goods at #6.
I know "but we paid Eli". For a guy who hates spending $ on FA, you seem to have an awful lot of regret about that. But this is ground that we've covered before.
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In comment 14658582 Eric on Li said:
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Honest question, at this point isn't it a lot more significant that Jones looks to be a better option than pretty much all the other options over the last 2 years, than to lament not choosing those other options?
The performance review needs to take into to account the Giants pissed away 45M dollars on two crap seasons with Manning as well.
Being a Super Bowl champion general manager requires making an overwhelming majority of right decisions on personnel and coaching in multiple successive years.
The goal isn't average -- it's a championship.
Getting one move right for every move you get wrong is not how a championship-level team is built.
That's how an 7-9 team is built, which would be aspirational for this trajectory right now.
We have come full circle. Yes it's great to have Jones, but they wasted too much time/money with Eli. And the cycle continues.
Would you agree or disagree over say a 3 year period managementt needs to get a majority of decisions correct and a vast majority of the big decisions correct to build a championship-level team?
All the bad moves limit the progress made by the good moves.
My view has never changed. I believe the Giants should give Gettleman and Shurmur three full offseasons and three full seasons to make the playoffs. I don't feel that's an unrealistic or unfair goal for a management and coaching group.
Only one Giants coach since 1980 hasn't gotten the team into the playoffs in 3 years -- Ray Handley.
If the Giants start next season 8-0 with this leadership I will gladly admit to being wrong.
Ok, how about if they change coaches, and simply have a winning record or make the playoffs?
Yeah we got to Jones, but the asset allocation to get to him was atrocious and indicative of major organizational dysfunction.
What the heck are you talking about? What asset allocation to get to him? We had a shit record and finished with the 6th pick.
I suppose you are implying that we should not have taken him with the 6th pick and COULD HAVE gotten him later in the draft? If so, there are enough stories indicating he may not have lasted until our next pick.
I’m not saying Gettleman has done great, but he hasn’t been a complete disaster (unlike Shurmur). Bashing Gettleman for the Solder contract is easy to do with the benefit of hindsight, but in real time most people liked that signing.
1---- What if you were the very many who hated the Solder signing? What do you think those people thought of DG at that moment and continue to think of him regarding that trade?
2---- Are you trying to say that people should evaluate a GM by public consensus vs performance? If not, then why is it wrong for those who liked the Solder to now turn and say the GM blew it? They don't have people working for them / all the information available to them a GM has. They aren't getting paid to make these moves. IMO by you bringing this up in a way that it matters what the public thinks is part of the problem some of us have with posters / fans like you. You're willing to provide excuses for non-performance. The question for us fans and the gM should be is "Has Solder performed." You've twisted that. You're wrong in doing so. You should be evaluating the performance of the GM not what more of the public thought at the time of the trade.
Those of you that thought the SOlder move was a good move - you were wrong. Own up to it. But more importantly own up to DG made a bad move. This caveat you throw in is nothing more than a smokescreen. It doesn't matter "what most thought." "Most were wrong." Performance counts.
3-- Who hired Shurmur? Doesn't the GM take a big hit for that? If Shurmur is a disaster then doesn't it stand to reason that DG made a disastrous hire/signing?
I've never seen more excuses given to a GM than what some have given on here. I recall last week a poster suggesting that current restructure of Nate Solder's contract wasn't DG's fault or his doing. It was from something like the Contracts Dept or whatever. Just incredible.
And you might be right - but given the extremely limited, yet vital variables that will play a role in this outcome, it seems your projection is being made on little other than pessimism and doubt. Since you typically chide people for projecting based on hope, wouldn't this just be the same thing on the other side of the spectrum?
We still have 8 games remaining in THIS season. I have no idea how anyone could reasonably predict the record for next years team at this point. There are so many things that have to happen between now and January of 2021, there's just no way to make an educated guess with so many key points missing from the equation.
Based on what we've seen, you can certainly assume... but assuming usually won't get us far.
It's really just a 'safe' prediction based on the recent past being carried by negativity. Let's at least acknowledge that much.
My view has never changed. I believe the Giants should give Gettleman and Shurmur three full offseasons and three full seasons to make the playoffs. I don't feel that's an unrealistic or unfair goal for a management and coaching group.
I understand your point but I don't think the goal should be to simply get into the playoffs. The team needs to compete in every game even if we happen to back into the playoffs one year. Not interested in a fluke season where we make the playoffs and then back to losing. We just went through that a few years ago.
I mentioned earlier that this organization and its fans have grown to accept losing. Making the playoffs once is just a start, not an end game.
General management is responsible for coaching, scouting, and pro and amateur player personnel.
If Gettleman is off the hook for bad coaching hires and bad pro player acquisition, maybe a smaller role is a better fit for him.
If Gettleman is off the hook for bad coaching hires and bad pro player acquisition, maybe a smaller role is a better fit for him.
I think the GM should be solely responsible for hiring the head coach... period. Maybe the owner can have veto power if there is some serious reason NOT to hire the guy. (Buddy Ryan)
Owners getting too involved is a recipe for disaster
We have come full circle. Yes it's great to have Jones, but they wasted too much time/money with Eli. And the cycle continues.
Would you agree or disagree over say a 3 year period managementt needs to get a majority of decisions correct and a vast majority of the big decisions correct to build a championship-level team?
I wholeheartedly agree (though I'd probably hedge slightly to say winning team vs. championship). I think to this point DG has gotten more decisions right than wrong - especially the big ones. I'm a lot more confident the talent to be a winning team will be on the roster by this time next year than I am that this is the right coaching staff however.
I certainly never framed it that way; but I suppose I'd be conveniently stuffed into that box with everyone else since I don't spend 6 days a week here complaining about him.
He deserves criticism for hiring a bad coach. He deserves criticism when he allocates cap dollars poorly or when he makes a bad trade for the team.
It's also okay to credit him when it looks like he's drafted a good player who can be part of a young nucleus going forward.
"Mixed bag" is fair for Gettleman at this point, in my opinion. He's not been so awful that he should be axed after 1.5 years of a rebuild. He's also not been good enough to give a total pass to.
You can make coaching changes easier than you can atone for blown drafts. So, I'd prefer to have the coach be the bigger problem than the drafts.
And certainly, the coach has been the worse of the two, but it doesn't mean it's got to be all or nothing with both guys. Sometimes the views here become too simplistic and we start ignoring all sorts of variables and decisions and focus on nothing but the bottom line. And maybe the bottom line is all people care about; but to me, it's more important to figure out how you've arrived there and where your avenues are going forward.
General management is responsible for coaching, scouting, and pro and amateur player personnel.
If Gettleman is off the hook for bad coaching hires and bad pro player acquisition, maybe a smaller role is a better fit for him.
There is 0 diminished culpability in the coaching hire. I'd say however many games into his tenure we are right now it's the most egregious mistake by a good margin. If he doesn't get it fixed this offseason either by Shurmur turning things around or making a change it may get him fired.
Where it sounds like we disagree is that I think most of player acquisitions have been good. I think Jones is a good young QB prospect. Barkley is 1 of the best young players in football. Lawrence looks very good. Golden looks like a guy we may want to sign long term. I think the Leonard Williams trade is an interesting gamble. This argument just goes around and around.
The dynamics of resource investment, leadership, and productivity leading to performance is literally what I do all day for a living.
I hope ownership has the same good instinct Gettleman has -- if they've made a bad decision -- get out as fast as possible. I hope that applies to Gettleman and Shurmur.
Three years is an eternity in the NFL. If I'm ownership I give Gettleman one more offseason and Shurmur the next 1.5 years on the field to establish a playoff level team.
I want a bullshit, excuse free, winning philosophy from ownership. I don't want a GM who bats below .500 or a head coach whose best response is he's better than the clown who preceded him.
It's too easy to have all of the information we have no and say NYG should have done x, y, and z in the 2018 draft. It's an exercise in futility, and yet, we do it on a daily basis.
We already know now how a lot of those players are playing, where they were drafted, and have information we did not have at the time. We don't get to just look at the board and cherry pick the best possible yield for NYG and leave everything else unchanged.
The world doesn't work that way, and neither does football.
While an understandable view, there were alternative strategies that were not undertaken so its not cherry picking. And they certainly were apparent by fans here so lets not downplay how a well experienced GM's office was not able to view them either.
DG had an unbiased seat at the table to break this whole thing down and start over...and he instead fell for a different agenda that has mixed some good with other continued bad and only delayed what should have been a full blown restructuring.
I would be shocked if DG doesn't wish he had a "do-over" sitting in his office today. And not the kind of do-over where he missed on silly Jonathan Stewart, I am talking about a completely different road not taken...
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Shurmur is being framed as the next fall guy, with blame deflected from Gettleman.
Never mind that Gettleman helped hire Shurmur, and reportedly made at least one major personnel mistake (signing Beckham) on Shurmur's recommendation.
Blaming Shurmur for everything accomplished the goal of identifying a culprit while being able to maintain the illusion that the ship is still well run. While Shurmur most certainly is incompetent, he isn't the sole reason this team is so dreadful.
Bingo. The wagons are being circled. It was Gettleman/Mara who decided to turn this team into an expansion team. It was their decision to hire Shurmur. It was their decision to sign the free agents we signed almost all of whom were old or ineffective or both. It was their decision to spend 1/3 of our draft picks the last two years on D-linemen and then decide to spend two more on another d-lineman that they still have to sign. Hindsight being 20-20 is a legit argument. Some of these are strategic decisions that have nothing to do with the lack of foresight.
How much foresight did it take to see Shurmur's track record as a HC was abysmal and a danger signal? How much foresight did it take to see that guys like Stewart or Bethea wouldn't have much left? How bad was the evaluation of someone like Halapio and how much foresight did it take to figure a guy who had bounced around between several teams and ended up in a club league would be troublesome as a starting center? How much adverse information on guys like Solder or Zeitler or Ogletree was ignored in favor of a happy narrative that they were all solid players?
Whether you like Barkley/Jones or not and having nothing to do with foresight, these are not signs of a well-run or effective organization.
Some of the fans are falling for it hook, line and sinker.
On another thread I just read that Bettcher has the defensive roster of his choosing, pointing to guys like Bethea and Martin as examples. So along with Gettleman not being responsible for the Eli decision (after all, that was Mara), and not responsible for hiring the coaches (ditto), the coaches are also picking the players.
I want a bullshit, excuse free, winning philosophy from ownership. I don't want a GM who bats below .500 or a head coach whose best response is he's better than the clown who preceded him.
I agree with you and the scary part is we have an owner who was willing to allow Reese (whose record was well below 500 in the draft) continue until the fan base was about ready to burn their tickets again.
Remember when Mara fired Coughlin but kept Reese? At that time, I was thinking Reese got a pass because Mara's fingerprints were also on the draft picks.
We should be targeting more short term prove it guys in FA like Golden was in 2019.
More Goldens and no Solders.
As fans, there's no accountability for a wrong opinion. I've seen plenty of posters who were all aboard the "Gettleman fucked up by punting on QB" train last year, who are now pivoting and changing their stance to "well, we still could have traded down or taken Nelson", etc etc...
Fans get to just revise and get a 'do over' on their opinions. I've changed my mind on things too. It happens when you become privy to information or see things play out a certain way.
Some of the thinking at the time was logical; this isn't the case for everyone. There were no doubt fans who had a realistic alternative course of action that they wanted to see.
But, again, even in those alternate realities... we don't know how things could have played out here. Once you change one thing, you have to change everything else... which is why I hate spending so much time harping on the hindsight game.
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I want a bullshit, excuse free, winning philosophy from ownership. I don't want a GM who bats below .500 or a head coach whose best response is he's better than the clown who preceded him.
I agree with you and the scary part is we have an owner who was willing to allow Reese (whose record was well below 500 in the draft) continue until the fan base was about ready to burn their tickets again.
Remember when Mara fired Coughlin but kept Reese? At that time, I was thinking Reese got a pass because Mara's fingerprints were also on the draft picks.
What makes you think otherwise? They brought in a former Giants GM, hired a former FO exec, and changed swapped out one other guy. And the name that gets floated when they talk about succession is another insider.
The operation is basically the same.
We should be targeting more short term prove it guys in FA like Golden was in 2019.
More Goldens and no Solders.
I think Golden could go either way. There are only so many double digit sack guys out there. Gettleman's biggest question this offseason is what he does with the coaching staff because he has to get that right because everything good or bad will flow from that - and if he gets it wrong I don't think he will get another offseason after this one.
Some of the thinking at the time was logical; this isn't the case for everyone. There were no doubt fans who had a realistic alternative course of action that they wanted to see.
I think a perfect example of this is the Solder signing. Here are the facts...
1. We came off of a season where OL was likely the worst (or close) in the league.
2. Our left tackle was absolutely the worst in the league.
3. There were not many left tackles available via free agency
4. We had to do something
5. Solder did not look this bad on film until we got him.
Those were facts, and here is an opinion...
If we did not sign a replacement for Flowers, we would be asking WTF is Gettleman doing? Plus, of Solder ended up on a team where the environment would allow him to play better than he has shown us thus far, DG would be criticized.
This franchise has been bad enough as a team (and at so many positions) that it is almost sad when the decisions made don't make things better, putting aside even much better or a lot better. Knowing things were at "basement level"...couldn't we have at least reached ground floor yet?
And i think you (and some others on BBI) are astute enough to filter out the posters that are just pivoting at every moment versus the ones you care to read and debate with.
If anyone here saw them being as good as they've been so far in 2019 coming off their 2018, I'd certainly shake their hand on some outstanding foresight.
I wouldn't bet on NYG being in their shoes at this point next year, but I think it's also worth acknowledging that the general consensus around SF at this point last year probably wasn't a whole lot more favorable than what it is for NYG right now.
The 49ers were 1-7 @ the midway point last year. Even worse than our current 2-6.
Gee, shrewd signings, good trades, good drafting and building on the roster. See any of that going on here?
This franchise has been bad enough as a team (and at so many positions) that it is almost sad when the decisions made don't make things better, putting aside even much better or a lot better. Knowing things were at "basement level"...couldn't we have at least reached ground floor yet?
And i think you (and some others on BBI) are astute enough to filter out the posters that are just pivoting at every moment versus the ones you care to read and debate with.
Part of your post touches on why this is one of the most difficult portions of a rebuild.
It's because singular players typically won't move the needle enough on their own to 'prove' whether or not the decision to acquire, sign, or draft them was a smart one or the right one in the short term.
Even if we had drafted Quinton Nelson last year, we're still probably a crappy football team at this exact juncture - and that's the logic many have used to prove that Barkley was a bad pick. Then, we'd be playing this same game with an adjusted roster and the blame would just pivot towards another player or position.
Nelson in place of Barkley would have been fine with me, personally. But I can't sit here and pretend NYG would suddenly be a different team today having made that one swap - for many of the reasons I've already touched on. We'd still have a lot of complaints, a lot of people wanting the coach fired. A lot of people questioning why the defense still sucks.
One of my bigger gripes was how the Eli situation was handled, and that's because it seems clear to me the owner got involved. That player decision had the biggest salary cap impact - and it's a decision that I personally don't believe was made by the GM alone.
So, that's another aspect that needs to be considered here. Would Dave Gettleman have moved on from Eli before this season if the decision was left entirely up to him?
I bet he would have.
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Some of the thinking at the time was logical; this isn't the case for everyone. There were no doubt fans who had a realistic alternative course of action that they wanted to see.
I think a perfect example of this is the Solder signing. Here are the facts...
1. We came off of a season where OL was likely the worst (or close) in the league.
2. Our left tackle was absolutely the worst in the league.
3. There were not many left tackles available via free agency
4. We had to do something
5. Solder did not look this bad on film until we got him.
Those were facts, and here is an opinion...
If we did not sign a replacement for Flowers, we would be asking WTF is Gettleman doing? Plus, of Solder ended up on a team where the environment would allow him to play better than he has shown us thus far, DG would be criticized.
I will stop at 4. Yes, something had to be done at Left Tackle...but lots of things had to be done at lots of positions and Solder wasn't going to right this sinking ship by playing better than trainwreck-Flowers.
The smart play was for a team in deep need of restructuring in many places not to make a very avg left tackle the highest paid player at his position. It was deperation run-amuck to provide short term peace of mind to a non-mobile QB in decline that was worth investing in at that point.
DG didn't think smart or longer term and we are paying for it now...
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We should also acknowledge that probably no one here envisioned SF @ 8-0 at the midway point before this season started. I don't even recall much of anyone seeing the 49ers as a team that would win their division or be much of a factor in the NFC at all.
If anyone here saw them being as good as they've been so far in 2019 coming off their 2018, I'd certainly shake their hand on some outstanding foresight.
I wouldn't bet on NYG being in their shoes at this point next year, but I think it's also worth acknowledging that the general consensus around SF at this point last year probably wasn't a whole lot more favorable than what it is for NYG right now.
The 49ers were 1-7 @ the midway point last year. Even worse than our current 2-6.
Stop it. SF had players in place before Garappolo was lost for the year and wrecked their season. They had gone from 2-14 to 6-10 before winning 4 games when Garappolo got hurt so they had showed improvement. Note, they traded out of the first round after their 2-14 season and picked up three picks. They went through the roster and kept guys like Staley and Armstead. They traded for Garappolo and Tomlinson and snagged superstar TE Kittle in the 5th round. They signed Coleman and Alexander this year.
Gee, shrewd signings, good trades, good drafting and building on the roster. See any of that going on here?
Yeah, everyone saw this coming... everyone saw them going from one of the worst defense in football to arguably the best overnight.
Cmon. Spare me the hindsight bullshit.
You didn't have SF @ 8-0 at the midway point and no one else here did, either. Hindsight wins again.
I'm sure a lot of the things being said about James Bettcher right now were probably being said about him at this point last year.
Now, everyone thinks the guy is one of the brightest DC's in the game.
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Some of the thinking at the time was logical; this isn't the case for everyone. There were no doubt fans who had a realistic alternative course of action that they wanted to see.
I think a perfect example of this is the Solder signing. Here are the facts...
1. We came off of a season where OL was likely the worst (or close) in the league.
2. Our left tackle was absolutely the worst in the league.
3. There were not many left tackles available via free agency
4. We had to do something
5. Solder did not look this bad on film until we got him.
Those were facts, and here is an opinion...
If we did not sign a replacement for Flowers, we would be asking WTF is Gettleman doing? Plus, of Solder ended up on a team where the environment would allow him to play better than he has shown us thus far, DG would be criticized.
I was ok with the Solder signing at the time. I was utterly and completely wrong. Solder has been disastrous, and is absolutely a mark against Gettleman.
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I think to this point DG has gotten more decisions right than wrong - especially the big ones.
Wow.
That says it all right there. I think the QB spot looks good as does the rb as does Lawrence. Everything else heading into next year imo is a huge question.
Everything you say I disagree with. That's okay . . . but still . . . wow are we on opposite sides or what?
without significance free agent signings -- (LW is a FA as is MG - which means right off the bat GMen need to sign two significant spots but need more if they want to be good enough to be potentially "good.") then I think we're headed for another non-playoff year and out of playoff contention before the last few weeks. Need significant FA signings and further big hits in the draft to have a chance.
Come to think off it -- Coughlin was nearly run out of town two years in
I really don't think the current situation doesn't still merit a little patience. They have made a lot of good moves. I'm interested to see what happens here with another year or two of moves. I've never seen the Giants draft this well over a two year stretch. In my view stocking through the draft is the best way to build a team. The cupboard is virtually bare of draft picks before 2018.
Change for change sake doesn't necessarily improve anything
One thing I don't get is why is this Mara's fault? Mara put Gettleman in and let him clean house and rebuild the roster - isn't this what needed to be done? I really don't see any move that has crippled the team or stymied it from growing down the road.
I also don't get the vitiole aimed at Solder -- Solder is a decent player -- he's playing hurt right now. The left tackles playing before him were frikken healthy and they couldn't carry his boots - that's how bad this oline line was. There is every reason to believe that the Giants are going to continue to improve.
One of my bigger gripes was how the Eli situation was handled, and that's because it seems clear to me the owner got involved. That player decision had the biggest salary cap impact - and it's a decision that I personally don't believe was made by the GM alone.
So, that's another aspect that needs to be considered here. Would Dave Gettleman have moved on from Eli before this season if the decision was left entirely up to him?
I bet he would have.
Yep, but even you are cherry picking to some degree. With the Eli decision came Solder and few other aged avg players that were not worth bring on. That caused less money to be available for other problems. It also led to adding a prize RB for Eli when maybe (i say maybe) the better view was to go elsewhere with such a valued #2 pick. You and I don't need to debate the positional value thing on RBs as I think our views are both known and perfectly fair.
My point being is the Eli-thing caused a lot of other things...
The smart play was for a team in deep need of restructuring in many places not to make a very avg left tackle the highest paid player at his position.
DG didn't think smart or longer term and we are paying for it now...
...again, why are we always so concerned with the money? Can you name specific players we were unable to sign due to Solder's contract? It is all conjecture.
It sucks that Solder is not playing well. To me, that is the most important factor here.
Let's see how much we pay Eli to sit on the bench next season.
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In comment 14658601 arcarsenal said:
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We should also acknowledge that probably no one here envisioned SF @ 8-0 at the midway point before this season started. I don't even recall much of anyone seeing the 49ers as a team that would win their division or be much of a factor in the NFC at all.
If anyone here saw them being as good as they've been so far in 2019 coming off their 2018, I'd certainly shake their hand on some outstanding foresight.
I wouldn't bet on NYG being in their shoes at this point next year, but I think it's also worth acknowledging that the general consensus around SF at this point last year probably wasn't a whole lot more favorable than what it is for NYG right now.
The 49ers were 1-7 @ the midway point last year. Even worse than our current 2-6.
Stop it. SF had players in place before Garappolo was lost for the year and wrecked their season. They had gone from 2-14 to 6-10 before winning 4 games when Garappolo got hurt so they had showed improvement. Note, they traded out of the first round after their 2-14 season and picked up three picks. They went through the roster and kept guys like Staley and Armstead. They traded for Garappolo and Tomlinson and snagged superstar TE Kittle in the 5th round. They signed Coleman and Alexander this year.
Gee, shrewd signings, good trades, good drafting and building on the roster. See any of that going on here?
Yeah, everyone saw this coming... everyone saw them going from one of the worst defense in football to arguably the best overnight.
Cmon. Spare me the hindsight bullshit.
You didn't have SF @ 8-0 at the midway point and no one else here did, either. Hindsight wins again.
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The smart play was for a team in deep need of restructuring in many places not to make a very avg left tackle the highest paid player at his position.
DG didn't think smart or longer term and we are paying for it now...
...again, why are we always so concerned with the money? Can you name specific players we were unable to sign due to Solder's contract? It is all conjecture.
It sucks that Solder is not playing well. To me, that is the most important factor here.
Let's see how much we pay Eli to sit on the bench next season.
Eric - your post is so egregious imv that I will take a pass on debating any of those comments...
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One of my bigger gripes was how the Eli situation was handled, and that's because it seems clear to me the owner got involved. That player decision had the biggest salary cap impact - and it's a decision that I personally don't believe was made by the GM alone.
So, that's another aspect that needs to be considered here. Would Dave Gettleman have moved on from Eli before this season if the decision was left entirely up to him?
I bet he would have.
Yep, but even you are cherry picking to some degree. With the Eli decision came Solder and few other aged avg players that were not worth bring on. That caused less money to be available for other problems. It also led to adding a prize RB for Eli when maybe (i say maybe) the better view was to go elsewhere with such a valued #2 pick. You and I don't need to debate the positional value thing on RBs as I think our views are both known and perfectly fair.
My point being is the Eli-thing caused a lot of other things...
Any time management isn't 100% on the same page, I think it opens you up to some roster gaffes. The entire Eli scenario certainly created cap madness in a way it shouldn't have.
Do we even sign Solder at all if we move on from Eli after 2017?
Maybe not...
So, even some of these decisions start to intertwine with others and may have been made as a result of others.
Of course, that doesn't absolve Gettleman entirely. Just another point to consider.
I didn't even have a huge issue obviously overpaying Solder if it meant we were getting adequate-good play @ OLT. I didn't need top tier LT play - just wanted something reasonably solid. Solder has been very hit or miss, and yes, he's been banged up, but I didn't expect the amount of downright crappy showings we've seen from him in 1.5 years.
I was prepared for a little bit of a performance dip... I wasn't prepared for a guy who is the main reason Daniel Jones is running for his life in some of these football games.
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In comment 14658690 HomerJones45 said:
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In comment 14658601 arcarsenal said:
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We should also acknowledge that probably no one here envisioned SF @ 8-0 at the midway point before this season started. I don't even recall much of anyone seeing the 49ers as a team that would win their division or be much of a factor in the NFC at all.
If anyone here saw them being as good as they've been so far in 2019 coming off their 2018, I'd certainly shake their hand on some outstanding foresight.
I wouldn't bet on NYG being in their shoes at this point next year, but I think it's also worth acknowledging that the general consensus around SF at this point last year probably wasn't a whole lot more favorable than what it is for NYG right now.
The 49ers were 1-7 @ the midway point last year. Even worse than our current 2-6.
Stop it. SF had players in place before Garappolo was lost for the year and wrecked their season. They had gone from 2-14 to 6-10 before winning 4 games when Garappolo got hurt so they had showed improvement. Note, they traded out of the first round after their 2-14 season and picked up three picks. They went through the roster and kept guys like Staley and Armstead. They traded for Garappolo and Tomlinson and snagged superstar TE Kittle in the 5th round. They signed Coleman and Alexander this year.
Gee, shrewd signings, good trades, good drafting and building on the roster. See any of that going on here?
Yeah, everyone saw this coming... everyone saw them going from one of the worst defense in football to arguably the best overnight.
Cmon. Spare me the hindsight bullshit.
You didn't have SF @ 8-0 at the midway point and no one else here did, either. Hindsight wins again.
You didn't think they would be better with a healthy Garappolo and Breida and then signing Coleman, Johnson and Alexander? You didn't think they would be say 4-4 in year 2? That's a damn sight better than we are. I'm sure we will come firing out of the gate 8-0 next year, right? or will it be the year after? Or the year after that? Patience. Right?
The view on Garropolo is going to be a bit inflated now that he's coming off arguably the best game of his career. But, prior to that game, he was like reason #10 on a long list of reasons why they've been succeeding.
Nick Mullens actually didn't play all that terribly last year. Pinning the QB injury as the reason for their 4 win season is convenient, but not accurate.
Matt Breida is ALWAYS banged up. He's a good RB - but no, I didn't think to myself "wow, SF is getting Matt Breida back... watch out!" He's a change of pace RB and nothing more. Brieda isn't a guy you can reliably give 20 touches to a week and expect to hold up.. he won't.
Coleman has also been hit or miss. He had a 4 TD explosion 2 weeks ago, and then was completely stifled by Arizona's defense on Thursday
They have a nice RB group right now, but they also overpaid Jerick McKinnon and he still has yet to play a down for them. So, before we act like their RB group was flawlessly constructed - let's remember that part. They fucked up there - it just didn't come back to bite them.
They spent some money to add talent in FA? Cool, why can't we?
Again - they were a bottom third defense as recently as last year. Only 3 teams in the entire NFL allowed more points than the 49ers last year.
Lastly, I didn't say anything about expecting the Giants to be in their shoes a year from now. What I did say, was that if you try to tell me you saw SF being where they are right now in November of LAST year, I'd have to assume you're probably FOS.
Things changed quickly for them. Garropolo is a nice player, but he's not Patrick Mahomes or the guy carrying that team right now.
Give any QB a top 3 defense and a legitimate ground game and they'll win quite a bit. Even Mark Sanchez managed it.
Of course, Jimmy G >>> Sanchez. But, the general sentiment around the 49ers one year ago was much closer to the 'we're not really sure if they have any idea what they're doing' variety - much like it is with NYG right now.
No one was completely sold on Lynch last November. If you were, then congratulations on tremendous foresight. You're part of a very small group.
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The smart play was for a team in deep need of restructuring in many places not to make a very avg left tackle the highest paid player at his position.
DG didn't think smart or longer term and we are paying for it now...
...again, why are we always so concerned with the money? Can you name specific players we were unable to sign due to Solder's contract? It is all conjecture.
It sucks that Solder is not playing well. To me, that is the most important factor here.
Let's see how much we pay Eli to sit on the bench next season.
We could have signed Collins.
With another year added on past 30 plus an offseason surgery to deal with, I figured Solder was going to be a problem for immobile Eli but he is really getting our rookie hit far too often. And btw - his run blocking with Hernandez is kind of below average too.
not good...
We could have signed Collins.
Right... cue BBI the moment another TE has a good game against him... "we overpaid for a guy who cannot cover"
It does not matter what you do, the critics here find a way to twist it into a negative.
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If we did not sign a replacement for Flowers, we would be asking WTF is Gettleman doing? Plus, of Solder ended up on a team where the environment would allow him to play better than he has shown us thus far, DG would be criticized.
There were alternatives. Further, the team wasn't going anywhere anyways so "WTF are we doing" would have been silly anyways considering the team was so awful.
You had to take in the context that the team was going to suck anyways and they had ZERO good OLinemen at the time considering they were saying goodbye to their c and g.
****It's simple math and logic: ONE older decent to pretty good OL isn't going to do shit for an OL that is pathetic at the other 4 spots. Add in that the team is in rebuild so when you ultimately will get good- he will start to fade or maybe suck. The idea should be to accumulate quantity of players at the OL along with youth. At least if it's not quantity you should be getting YOUTH. Or if old you should be getting "cheap."
One older decent to pretty good player wasn't making a difference overall on a rebuilding team. To pay what they did vs getting two younger players makes sense- you go with 2 younger over one older. You need FIVE OLinemen - not ONE. Paying for one guy who wasn't all that great anyways who is older on a rebuilding team is idiotic.
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The smart play was for a team in deep need of restructuring in many places not to make a very avg left tackle the highest paid player at his position.
DG didn't think smart or longer term and we are paying for it now...
...again, why are we always so concerned with the money?
We're concerned with money because for the combination of Solder, Omameh and Stewart- you could've picked up two younger OL for the price of what ends up just being one in Solder.
TWO players -- and especially "YOUNG"- is better than one who is "old" for a rebuilding team.
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In comment 14658693 Jimmy Googs said:
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The smart play was for a team in deep need of restructuring in many places not to make a very avg left tackle the highest paid player at his position.
DG didn't think smart or longer term and we are paying for it now...
...again, why are we always so concerned with the money?
We're concerned with money because for the combination of Solder, Omameh and Stewart- you could've picked up two younger OL for the price of what ends up just being one in Solder.
TWO players -- and especially "YOUNG"- is better than one who is "old" for a rebuilding team.
I mean that's a great plan and all but what good young oline even hit FA? Norwell was the exception to the rule, they had cap issues. So I'm curious if you have specific names even in hindsight?
I think to this point DG has gotten more decisions right than wrong - especially the big ones.
Wow.
That says it all right there. I think the QB spot looks good as does the rb as does Lawrence. Everything else heading into next year imo is a huge question.
Ok so the #6 pick looks good. The #2 overall pick looks good. And the #17 pick looks good (which was the main piece of the beckham trade, which overall is looking good).
Would you agree those draft selections are probably the 3 most important decisions he's made and it looks like he got right? Because if so then I think we actually agree on more than you realize. Not all decisions have equal importance and whatever his worst move has been (I'd say the Ogletree trade) it paled in comparison to getting the 2 top 10 picks right.
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The smart play was for a team in deep need of restructuring in many places not to make a very avg left tackle the highest paid player at his position.
DG didn't think smart or longer term and we are paying for it now...
...again, why are we always so concerned with the money? Can you name specific players we were unable to sign due to Solder's contract? It is all conjecture.
It sucks that Solder is not playing well. To me, that is the most important factor here.
Let's see how much we pay Eli to sit on the bench next season.
It has nothing to do with who the Giants could have signed -- it has everything to do with a having a war chest and maximum flexibility to deal with any issue or opportunity that might arise.
All money not spent is money saved.
If the season ended today, four of the five team with the most cap space in 2020 are playoff teams.
They are good teams, with young cores. All of them have decisions to make to stay viable. Dallas and Indy have QB decisions. Buffalo and Houston need infusions of talent to be true championship contenders.
They have maximum flexibility to operate and to keep their own or shop more aggressively in the open market.
The reason they are in this position is because they have rolled money over and established big war chests as they developed into contenders.
Spending and sucking is the worst thing a team can do. There is literally zero upside.
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We should also acknowledge that probably no one here envisioned SF @ 8-0 at the midway point before this season started. I don't even recall much of anyone seeing the 49ers as a team that would win their division or be much of a factor in the NFC at all.
If anyone here saw them being as good as they've been so far in 2019 coming off their 2018, I'd certainly shake their hand on some outstanding foresight.
I wouldn't bet on NYG being in their shoes at this point next year, but I think it's also worth acknowledging that the general consensus around SF at this point last year probably wasn't a whole lot more favorable than what it is for NYG right now.
The 49ers were 1-7 @ the midway point last year. Even worse than our current 2-6.
Stop it. SF had players in place before Garappolo was lost for the year and wrecked their season. They had gone from 2-14 to 6-10 before winning 4 games when Garappolo got hurt so they had showed improvement. Note, they traded out of the first round after their 2-14 season and picked up three picks. They went through the roster and kept guys like Staley and Armstead. They traded for Garappolo and Tomlinson and snagged superstar TE Kittle in the 5th round. They signed Coleman and Alexander this year.
Gee, shrewd signings, good trades, good drafting and building on the roster. See any of that going on here?
Specific to the bolded part, I actually do see some of that. Golden has been a real good pickup, same age and a lot cheaper than Dee Ford. Ryan Connelly was looking like a real good player from the 5th round. Lawrence looks like a building block in a similar mold to the guys SF drafted in the years prior to Bosa. Leonard Williams could turn out to be another similar piece on the DL.
This 3rd offseason is going to be just as critical for DG as it was for John Lynch - who managed to add DPOY candidate Nick Bosa, the aforementioned Dee Ford, and spent big $ on Kwon Alexander. Unlike SF I'm not sure we have the right coaching staff in place, so that's another key decision DG needs to get right. If he doesn't I'm not sure he'll get a 4th offseason.
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In comment 14658706 EricJ said:
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In comment 14658693 Jimmy Googs said:
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The smart play was for a team in deep need of restructuring in many places not to make a very avg left tackle the highest paid player at his position.
DG didn't think smart or longer term and we are paying for it now...
...again, why are we always so concerned with the money?
We're concerned with money because for the combination of Solder, Omameh and Stewart- you could've picked up two younger OL for the price of what ends up just being one in Solder.
TWO players -- and especially "YOUNG"- is better than one who is "old" for a rebuilding team.
I mean that's a great plan and all but what good young oline even hit FA? Norwell was the exception to the rule, they had cap issues. So I'm curious if you have specific names even in hindsight?
But you don't need "stars/all-pros." As I've said in the past I wanted Hubbard, Fulton and if you recall SY was super-high on Braden Smith. That year I would've 1st tried Hubbard at LT. If that failed then Braden Smith. If these failed then how are those moves so atrocious vs what we have now?
The point is many over-exaggerate the point of "we had to make the Solder move." If you were going to suck anyways what difference does it make with your LT if you are sucking anyways? And he’s older! He isn't part of a rebuild! You didn’t need to “pin down” that LT position last year. Some people see anyways at this moment the team has so many holes why the desperation to start last year with an overpaid older LT who wasn’t that great anyways for such a lousy team? For what purpose? Why not TRY to get younger and get TWO decent enough players?
SO worst case scenario is that neither can be LT - the team sucks just like they have been the past two years but when you traded OBJ you could've maneuvered for a LT. Because Hubbard if he sucked at LT can play guard. SO can Braden Smith (but he's doing okay for Colts at RT). Smith and Hubbard are not only young but they play multiple positions. EVEN MORE VALUE FOR A REBUILDING TEAM! Hubbard doesn't have to be a star. Just decent enough. At worst guard he could've been that. The LT doesn’t have to be a star either. You don’t need All-Pro OL just guys good enough.
So when you trade OBJ - you get your LT. Please don’t tell me you couldn’t get a LT for OBJ. If you couldn’t get a LT directly from trading OBJ surely you could’ve gotten draft picks for OBJ then turned around and gotten your LT.
This is just one scenario I’ve always had. I’m sure others have others.
Spending and sucking is the worst thing a team can do. There is literally zero upside.
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life.
Sincerely
Dean Wormer
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In comment 14657383 Dnew15 said:
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that Eli was the starting QB during the DG tenure.
Why not? DG declared that reports of Eli's decline were hogwash, or mularkey, or some folksy synonym of bullshit. He made decisions based upon that belief. Shouldn't they be a part of his assessment?
After hiring Shurmur, this is the biggest reason Gettleman should be fired. He completely bungled quarterback. Threw away two seasons.
That is bullshit. What was the alternative? So they didn’t cut Eli get the fuck over the money already. If they cut Eli after 2017 they still suck today. They drafted a good looking qb in jones and that is the most important thing.
Cut Eli and spend more than half on a shittier vet option. Ok Great? And? What did THAT accomplish?
Money money money!!! Can’t stop talking about money!!! It’s all U got dude.
Eli Manning is #102 on a list of the things wrong with the giants this last decade. If they drafted well. If they didn’t fire TC and replace him with a stuffed over sized suit. If they had better injury luck.
But yes, Eli makes a lot of money. Low. Hanging. Fruit.
Add this one to the list of ridiculous and repeated fallacies to defend the bad resource management of this team the last 2 years.
Hopefully the sentimental days are behind ownership and/or management.
The giants are eating money if they cut Eli. And they would be paying the new vet qb money too. The big bad Eli contract and this panacea they cutting him is a myth. Some extra Money isn’t solving this mess we’re in. Time and drafting well might.
Add this one to the list of ridiculous and repeated fallacies to defend the bad resource management of this team the last 2 years.
Who said that?
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In no universe would a stop gap quarterback have cost 22M the last two years.
Add this one to the list of ridiculous and repeated fallacies to defend the bad resource management of this team the last 2 years.
Who said that?
Britt did
Having more money and using it on value-added players is all that matters...
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In comment 14659036 christian said:
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In no universe would a stop gap quarterback have cost 22M the last two years.
Add this one to the list of ridiculous and repeated fallacies to defend the bad resource management of this team the last 2 years.
Who said that?
Britt did
Bullshit.
1. I said Eli's dead money PLUS the cost of the new vet QB would put it in the ballpark.
2. Who cares what I said?
Cutting Manning after 2017 would have cost the Giants 12.4M in dead money and saved the Giants 33M over 2 years.
If they had cut him after the 2018 season the Giants would have had 6.2M in dead money and saved 17M.
The Giants paid Manning 45.4M over two years, and could have walked away for 33M in savings.
A guy like Teddy Bridgewater has made a total of 13.25M guaranteed the last 2 years.
A stop gap wasn't going to cost half of what Manning made nor half of what the Giants could have potentially saved.
Exact names please.
:-)
Cutting Manning after 2017 would have cost the Giants 12.4M in dead money and saved the Giants 33M over 2 years.
If they had cut him after the 2018 season the Giants would have had 6.2M in dead money and saved 17M.
The Giants paid Manning 45.4M over two years, and could have walked away for 33M in savings.
A guy like Teddy Bridgewater has made a total of 13.25M guaranteed the last 2 years.
A stop gap wasn't going to cost half of what Manning made nor half of what the Giants could have potentially saved.
yea.. the lengths to which people will twist themselves into pretzel shapes to justify keeping and paying Eli big money is strange. It is a little bit Stockholm Syndrome imo. We should have jettisoned Eli 3 years ago. What do you think BB would have done? That should be the North Star. Heck Kraft had to convince BB to keep Brady. Eli would have been gone three years ago.
TIA
Eli Manning is #102 on a list of the things wrong with the giants this last decade. If they drafted well. If they didn’t fire TC and replace him with a stuffed over sized suit. If they had better injury luck.
But yes, Eli makes a lot of money. Low. Hanging. Fruit.
Low hanging fruit indeed. And still being your reach.
The Chargers will likely give Rivers another contract.
They went after Norwell and offered him more money, he chose Jax. They went after Daryl Williams and offered him a bigger deal, he chose to stay in Carolina. They went after Deone Buchanon (who ended up getting cut any way) and he chose TB. They signed Golden Tate for $10m per year and everyone bitched. They signed Solder and we all know how that went. The most realistic positive usage I can think of is they would have been able to tag Collins. He has 0 ints this year and 2 passes defensed.
So despite the BBI myth of a plethora of Shaq Barretts out there leading the league in sacks and available on 1 year deals, it's far more likely whatever else they did with the money wouldn't have brought back that much return. FA in general produces far more Kareem Martins than Shaq Barretts. I'm not saying it wouldn't have been better to have more money to spend and bring in more FA's, but there needs to be some realism.
The Chargers will likely give Rivers another contract.
If LAC have any shot at Joe Burrow in the draft, they better take him.
Rivers is starting to look beat. This is the time to find his replacement.
right on cue...
No one actually. No one could have helped at all. This was the only choice(s) that made sense.
We will never win more games.
Having more money and using it on value-added players is all that matters...
Except it’s not that simple now is it. Yeah, we have more money, great, FA Reggie white isn’t just waltzing through that door.
It’s never that simple unless you’re a Monday morning gm on BBI. I didn’t hit my head, I’ve been watching the nfl closely for 40 years.
Cutting Eli in 2018 or 2019 isn’t saving jack fucking shit here. And to suggest otherwise and at the same time fire the GM for not exercising said move is way too convenient and easy. It’s all some of you have here. When in doubt, look at the money. This contract was an overpay and that one was too and how could this team be so stupid to overpay this guy and bla bla bla. Lazy, easy and convenient. Whatever works.
Draft well or die. Hire the right HC or die. When the right FA avails himself, be it your own or someone else’s, you pay and pray. Locker room distractions? Noise. Overpaying? They are all overpaid. Noise noise noise.
Would the giants be better off right now with Eli’s cap value off the books? Sure. But would it be a panacea? Not cutting Eli is reason enough to fire DG? Are you kidding me?
Get the fuck over the Eli situation already. Get over solder. We were desperate for a LT and signed a pro LT that checked off all the boxes. He’s making a lot of money. Deal with it. It you can’t see DG is building this team up with a bunch of good Young talent, including the young qb that 75% of you all fucking killed, you’re blind.
Only thing we need is time and maybe a HC.
Get the fuck over the Eli situation already. Get over solder. We were desperate for a LT and signed a pro LT that checked off all the boxes. He’s making a lot of money. Deal with it. It you can’t see DG is building this team up with a bunch of good Young talent, including the young qb that 75% of you all fucking killed, you’re blind.
Only thing we need is time and maybe a HC.
Oh, well that's a relief. Maybe we should have given all of our draft picks to lock up Leonard Williams since they aren't needed in your view either...
Gettleman needs to get better at the pro personnel side of this. Unless, he improves at this, this team ain’t going anywhere.
Gettleman needs to get better at the pro personnel side of this. Unless, he improves at this, this team ain’t going anywhere.
The worst part of it all being that this was supposed to be an area of strength for Gettleman, and it's the first thing he mentioned wanting to address when he walked in the door. He was touted for his ability to find under the radar OL talent.
Thus far, a bunch of FA money spent and literally nothing to show for it.
They went after Norwell and offered him more money, he chose Jax. They went after Daryl Williams and offered him a bigger deal, he chose to stay in Carolina. They went after Deone Buchanon (who ended up getting cut any way) and he chose TB. They signed Golden Tate for $10m per year and everyone bitched. They signed Solder and we all know how that went. The most realistic positive usage I can think of is they would have been able to tag Collins. He has 0 ints this year and 2 passes defensed.
So despite the BBI myth of a plethora of Shaq Barretts out there leading the league in sacks and available on 1 year deals, it's far more likely whatever else they did with the money wouldn't have brought back that much return. FA in general produces far more Kareem Martins than Shaq Barretts. I'm not saying it wouldn't have been better to have more money to spend and bring in more FA's, but there needs to be some realism.
We didn't even have to spend it - we could have banked it for next season's supposed FA portion of the rebuild. Or, wait for it, we could have avoided restructuring underachieving vets like Ellison and Solder and stopped the continued practice of borrowing cap space from future years.
We're not at the point where we even need to be thinking about who else we could have added - how about the extra cap space could have allowed us to actually properly correct the cap mismanagement once and for all?
I know that's a difficult thing for the apologists to understand, but it's a reality and a disadvantage.
Are you over Macho Grande?
Get the fuck over the Eli situation already. Get over solder. We were desperate for a LT and signed a pro LT that checked off all the boxes. He’s making a lot of money. Deal with it. It you can’t see DG is building this team up with a bunch of good Young talent, including the young qb that 75% of you all fucking killed, you’re blind.
Only thing we need is time and maybe a HC.
Nailed every pick? I appreciate the optimism, but can we be real here?
Did he nail the Lauletta pick? Can we say with any confidence yet that the McIntosh, Beal, Love, C. Slayton, Ballentine, or GAA picks were nailed?
It's really impossible to even have a discussion with you because you don't seem to live in the same reality as normal people do.
Get the fuck over the Eli situation already. Get over solder. We were desperate for a LT and signed a pro LT that checked off all the boxes. He’s making a lot of money. Deal with it. It you can’t see DG is building this team up with a bunch of good Young talent, including the young qb that 75% of you all fucking killed, you’re blind.
Only thing we need is time and maybe a HC.
What boxes did Solder check? They maybe got 8 good games out of him in year one. In year two he's been mediocre as well. Nonsense.
He tried to sign Norwell... He actually dodged a bullet here. Norwell has been a dumpster fire in Jacksonville
He signed Solder (30+ yo) to the largest contract for an OL in history. Solder was a dumpster fire in his 1st 8 games here as well as the the first 8 games this year. He's been so bad that they tried to trade him and found 0 takers.
He signed Omameh who he had cut 8 games into a 3 year contract.
He drafted 1 OL (Hernandez) in 2018, a draft chock full of OL talent.
He held onto Flowers as an RT, but had to cut him after 5 games.
He lucked into Jamon Brown, who wasn't great but he was competent, and could have been signed for a little more than for what Omameh was signed and he is MUCH better than Omameh.
He traded Vernon for Zeitler. Zeitler has been ok. I'm not sure that he has been a significant upgrade over Brown. Granted he has been playing hurt.
He drafted 1 OL in 2019... In the 7th round.
He signed Remmers (30+ yo coming off injury) who has not been good. At least its just 1 year.
He has stuck with Halapio at center...
This was supposed to be an expert on filling the OL. When he got here, the team needed new players at every OL position. To say that the position was on fire and a desperate need is the understatement of decade. It is arguable the 2nd most important position group on the team.
The only move that has worked out well is drafting Hernandez.
The next best move has been Zeitler who has been meh, but more importantly is the Vernon was traded for for him, when a viable candidate who wanted to stay could have been kept for a moderate deal and Vernon traded for an OC or RT. Overall, a lack of value was extracted from the available resources.
After that ever other move has been downright awful and ill-advised from the get go.
And the cherry on top is the fact that he has spent so little in the draft on such an important group that is such a need is fireable malfeasance all by itself. THere is absolutely 0 depth and nobody who is even worth developing right now. Its football criminal.
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In comment 14658626 Eric on Li said:
I think to this point DG has gotten more decisions right than wrong - especially the big ones.
Wow.
That says it all right there. I think the QB spot looks good as does the rb as does Lawrence. Everything else heading into next year imo is a huge question.
Ok so the #6 pick looks good. The #2 overall pick looks good. And the #17 pick looks good (which was the main piece of the beckham trade, which overall is looking good).
Would you agree those draft selections are probably the 3 most important decisions he's made and it looks like he got right? Because if so then I think we actually agree on more than you realize. Not all decisions have equal importance and whatever his worst move has been (I'd say the Ogletree trade) it paled in comparison to getting the 2 top 10 picks right.
Yes but as I stated on that other thread in which I felt you were trying to change the narrative. Whether you were or not is irrelevant. But it's the same here. You are not deliberately changing it but you aren't replying to the comment I posted to you originally on this thread. Sure you are correct I'm fine with with the 3 picks. But you said "MORE" than just the 3 picks. I replied to this comment from you--
I replied to the "totality" of your comment. Not just "the big ones." I mentioned SB and DJ and Lawrence were fine good picks. It's the other stuff--
From you: "I think to this point DG has gotten more decisions right than wrong - especially the big ones. I'm a lot more confident the talent to be a winning team will be on the roster by this time next year than I am that this is the right coaching staff however."
Let me just post to you an excerpt from eric's post in his preview of the next game. IMO this says it all vs what you are saying that DG has gotten it mostly right:
From eric: "Dave Gettleman and Company have been dreadful. In the past two years, they have signed Kareem Martin, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Curtis Riley, Cody Latimer, Connor Barwin, Jonathan Stewart, Nate Stupar, Antoine Bethea, Rod Smith, among many others already forgotten. . ."
I also don't get the vitiole aimed at Solder -- Solder is a decent player -- he's playing hurt right now. The left tackles playing before him were frikken healthy and they couldn't carry his boots - that's how bad this oline line was. There is every reason to believe that the Giants are going to continue to improve.
where did you hear he was playing hurt? What's his injury? It's now been two straight years he has been hurt. Other players are hurt and they don't stink to the degree that Solder has been. and if't is two straight years then it's a problem.
I don't get why you are comparing Solder to past players GMEN left tackles. I think more relevant is to ask if he is playing well. And he isn't --. And imo he isn't playing even "decent."
We'll just have to agree to disagree. SY and Eric also have been blasting him for poor play. And imo their comments are more in line with the season and not just 1 game. Thus what Flowers was previous to Solder imo irrelevant. More importantly, what is Solder as of right now? I think he is a subpar tackle in which the GMEN could have gotten much better value and more aligned with a rebuild type of team.
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Go ahead and extract your pound of flesh and fire DG. See how the next GM does. I guarantee you he isn’t nailing virtually every pick over two drafts like DG did.
Get the fuck over the Eli situation already. Get over solder. We were desperate for a LT and signed a pro LT that checked off all the boxes. He’s making a lot of money. Deal with it. It you can’t see DG is building this team up with a bunch of good Young talent, including the young qb that 75% of you all fucking killed, you’re blind.
Only thing we need is time and maybe a HC.
Nailed every pick? I appreciate the optimism, but can we be real here?
Did he nail the Lauletta pick? Can we say with any confidence yet that the McIntosh, Beal, Love, C. Slayton, Ballentine, or GAA picks were nailed?
It's really impossible to even have a discussion with you because you don't seem to live in the same reality as normal people do.
I've had the same encounters with the poster djm.
Good call.
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Is going to be a lot closer than many of you think
Good call.
He was right, I thought we'd lose by 20.
Thank God for the Bengals and Redskins, and hopefully over the course of the next few weeks, the Jets and Dolphins.