I read about all the complaints about Gettleman, and I get it, he's arrogant and the results havent been good. But at least he's not sitting on his ass like Jerry Reese did. I dont remember Reese ever trying to upgrade the roster during the season, he drafted shitty players and kept them too long.
I'm starting to lose faith in Shurmur as a HC but to be honest the offense was pretty good in the second half last season and he's working with a rookie QB who has potential despite the awful turnovers. I dont know if he can ever have a winning season the NFL but i guess he'll get one more year. I cant see them firing a guy who is working with mostly first and second year players (esp on D)
But when is this freaking team going to start to turn it around? I mean enough of this shit already. When is it gonna fucking click? I'm so tired of this. I feel like i'm a realist, and i know what this team is. But they really should have and could have won the previous 2 games. We're staring 2-7 in the face here and I have to sit there again on Monday night and watch fans of an opposing team celebrate in our home stadium.
I really dont see how they are going to get enough players to add to this roster next year to have a magical turn around like the 49ers have done.
So yeah i'm basically writing off 2020 as well at this point.
Rant over
The rosters are designed based on feedback from coaches. They're retained/extended/released/traded based on scouting and feedback that's provided by the coaching staff, and acquisitions are scheme dependent.
If you don't trust the coaches - how do you trust these assessments? How are you sure that the players being developed now are going to fit going forward, if the coaching staff changes materially within the next year or two?
Fair question jcn....
Shurmur....his play calling and time management acumen concerns me. For example, putting Saquon on the sidelines last year. V Philly...his questionable use of timeouts under two minutes....stuff like this.
Bettcher And the secondary coach.....not using players according to their strengths. Baker for example. I don’t believe he ever played zone defense in college. His loyalty to his guys, like Martin, Pierre, and Bethea. And speaking about zone defense....has it been effective? Is he coaching these guys up enough? I wonder....but I’m no expert.
This kind of stuff....but I think you already know this.
I also don't get where DG is arrogant.
When you have to remind everyone about your resume every time you speak and make it a point to let everyone know that you're knowingly zigging where the numbers suggest you should zag, yes, that's fucking arrogance.
And it's not a millennial thing to expect the turnaround to be further along than it is - it's an NFL thing. The system is set up to help teams improve somewhat rapidly. Unless you take the approach of tearing the whole thing down to the studs and selling off your hardware for pennies on the dollar while you oscillate between building for today with building for tomorrow - in that case, nothing gets accomplished, you piss away a full season with a misdiagnosis of the roster, and you have an extended rebuild on your hands.
You can only cry about Jerry Reese for so long.
His clock started the day that DJ started his first game.
DEFENSE:
1--- sign LW (assuming he is good). He had better be good. We should expect it. Granted some moves haven't panned out by DG but still got to expect some will. Thus you sign him then the DL is fixed. Even in a 3-4 set they'll get decent pressure. That's one of the 3 needed Free Agent signings that you need as a minimum.
2-- Sign a high quality OLB pass rusher. A high quality OLB. That's two of the 3 needed Free Agent signings that you need as a minimum.
3--- Between safety, ILB and center - AT A MINIMUM sign one Free Agent - must be high quality. If you can sign TWO-- all the better but probably can't. Soooo-- this now three signings of quality FA's.
4--- TRDAE DOWN in teh dratf with the GMEN's 1ts oick. You need three potential starters - and you should be bale to get thatby trading the 1st pick the GMEN will have by getting two picks back wihtin 1st 2 rounds and teh GMEN also have a 2nd roudner. By trading down you'll get the abailiyt to pick three players throuhg 2 rounds.
4a-- ofc the 1st pick once you trade down is get the Tackle.
4b-- what's ever left over with the other two picks you eithe rthe ILB, safety or center.
In summary - you've filled 4 of 5 spots in OL with some degree of quality vs what you currently have. Thus you;ve made Barkley much better and ofc this will make Jones much better which in turn the combo of OL, Jones maturation and better OL play along with Barkley's all-around game with a better OL and Qb will make the WR's better.
On defense- you'll have a good DL and at least 3 of 4 linebacker positions filled. You have 2 corners and with the FA signing or the high draft pick - you've got two safeties.
I did expect to see incremental improvements. And the list of needs to grow shorter.
Maybe more of the problems are with the coaching than it seems. But I look at the list of needs and it never gets shorter, even in the last 2 years.
Defense:
Dline: We have 3 run stuffers, still need a more dynamic player that can get an outside pass rush from the opposite side of the ER.
ER: obvious need
LB: We've trotted out hot garbage at LB for a decade, its still hot garbage and now we run a 3-4 which requires better LBs. We finally get one that looks to be at least competant and he promptly tears his ACL. Still need 3 of these.
CB: We've needed one opposite JJ since he got here. Noe JJ will be moving on... Baker seems likely to b a competent one, now we need a replacement on the other side. Slot CB seems like a forever need as well. plus depth.
FS: Needed one of these since Rolle moved to SS. Even Rolle was a hybrid DB. Need to go back Gibril Wilson since we had a true FS.
Offense:
OL: Need 2 tackles and a center. The Giants have been trying to plug in players off the NFL trash heap since the last SB. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing, that has failed in the past, over and over and expecting a better result. Except for Hernandez, the Giants haven't successfully drafted and developed an OL player since Will Beatty if you consider Beatty a success. Before that, you have to go back to Chris Snee 15 years ago. At best they have drafted and developed 3 OL in the last 15 years. That's just an incredible record of futility.
WR: looked like a strength for a while, but now OBJ is gone and SS might retire, if he returns, will he last, will he be the same guy going over the middle? And the last time this team had a real #2 WR was Manningham. Maybe, hopefully D. Slayton can grow into 1 starter role, but reality is they probably need 2 more in the next couple years.
TE: Ellison probably won't be back. Need a good in-line run blocking TE that can catch a pass.
In summary thats:
1 DL, 1 ER, 3 LB, 2 CB, 1 FS, 3 OL, 2 WR, 1 TE
That list just never seems to get shorter!
It feels like the Giants are spinning their wheels in the mud.
At least it doesn't include QB anymore. At least for now.
No team has studs everywhere.
I think that a really good free safety and inside LB would go a long way towards fixing the defense. An edge rusher would be nice, but I think we can get enough pressure with the guys we have.
On offense I agree two tackles and a center would be ideal, but a solid LT would fix a lot of what is wrong.
Summary - I think we are 3 really good players away from being a threat in the division. LT, ILB, FS. We need to protect DJ's blind side and improve the center of the defense. That is not saying we could improve in other places.
His clock started the day that DJ started his first game.
I can and will, he said Eli had plenty left in the tank.
Both this and last season did not start as rebuilds, just because the goalposts are moved mid-season doesn't change the initial projection of this team from the FO.
This team needs to clean house, it's going to get alot worse with this clownshow before it gets better.
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that Eli was the starting QB during the DG tenure.
His clock started the day that DJ started his first game.
I can and will, he said Eli had plenty left in the tank.
Both this and last season did not start as rebuilds, just because the goalposts are moved mid-season doesn't change the initial projection of this team from the FO.
This team needs to clean house, it's going to get alot worse with this clownshow before it gets better.
+1.
DG doesn't get an extension on his term paper because he swore by his typewriter and bought new ribbons instead of a computer.
Just as an aside, you do realize that "bafoon" makes you a bit unqualified to label anyone as such, right?
Ugh, you want to sit through three more years of In Gettleman We Trust until we climb back to respectability?
Here's the one no one is mentioning but is the carbon monoxide silent killer of the front office - when does Kevin Abrams get replaced?
Well, after 2020, we will have halfway there.
I am ok with DG so far and the drafts appear to be decent
not omg great but they need time to develop cripes even
Strahan was nothing special coming out and he turned into
a legend . Were gonna have to grin and bear it this
season hope Jones continues to get better with timing reads
all security ect but we do have some good pieces to work
with . I expected a 500 season and by the looks of things
thats a pipe dream . I am laying a good portion of it at
Shurmurs feet .If you notice there are not many seasoned ex head coaches out there but if we keep seeing the same mistakes with Shurmur . I don't see how they can keep him yet another season before they blow this staff up . They are getting so little out of Barkley its criminal.
Now I do however feel
Williams is going to have a big impact on the defense and
If we can't win one or two of the next three games then
heads should roll . Monday would be a good place to start
if they come in and kick our asses then I think it will be
the beginning of the end for this staff .
I am ok with DG so far and the drafts appear to be decent
not omg great but they need time to develop cripes even
Strahan was nothing special coming out and he turned into
a legend . Were gonna have to grin and bear it this
season hope Jones continues to get better with timing reads
all security ect but we do have some good pieces to work
with . I expected a 500 season and by the looks of things
thats a pipe dream . I am laying a good portion of it at
Shurmurs feet .If you notice there are not many seasoned ex head coaches out there but if we keep seeing the same mistakes with Shurmur . I don't see how they can keep him yet another season before they blow this staff up . They are getting so little out of Barkley its criminal.
Now I do however feel
Williams is going to have a big impact on the defense and
If we can't win one or two of the next three games then
heads should roll . Monday would be a good place to start
if they come in and kick our asses then I think it will be
the beginning of the end for this staff .
I'm just cranky at this point from so many of these threads, but honestly, you have some interesting takes, even though I don't agree with all of them (or even most of them), but how is it that you feel the need to hit enter after every line (I wish you wouldn't) and never break up your post into paragraphs (I wish you would)?
I'm sure you can see that your posts look different than everyone else's right? That's why.
Quote:
e
No team has studs everywhere.
I think that a really good free safety and inside LB would go a long way towards fixing the defense. An edge rusher would be nice, but I think we can get enough pressure with the guys we have.
On offense I agree two tackles and a center would be ideal, but a solid LT would fix a lot of what is wrong.
Summary - I think we are 3 really good players away from being a threat in the division. LT, ILB, FS. We need to protect DJ's blind side and improve the center of the defense. That is not saying we could improve in other places.
Only 3 players? Are you just assuming LW and MG will be Giants next year or GEMN just don't need them???? SO regarding 3 other positions you think covered --
First off - do you think the GMEN need to re-sign LW? He is a Free Agent so they need to sign him right?
Secondly, they lose Markus Golden. DO you think they need to resign him or you think the existing roster can fill that position?
Third-- you are okay with Halapio as center? How is a solid left tackle helping the position a center?
Strahan was nothing special coming out and he turned into
a legend .
LOL, I am assuming this sarcasm based on some of the ridiculous takes responding to me.
Welp they approached halfway in an era where turnarounds are shortened. Figure that
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Gettleman was supposed to fix what Jerry Reese and Marc Ross wrought for almost ten years. Is it the modern way that millennials think things can be fixed overnight.
I also don't get where DG is arrogant.
When you have to remind everyone about your resume every time you speak and make it a point to let everyone know that you're knowingly zigging where the numbers suggest you should zag, yes, that's fucking arrogance.
And it's not a millennial thing to expect the turnaround to be further along than it is - it's an NFL thing. The system is set up to help teams improve somewhat rapidly. Unless you take the approach of tearing the whole thing down to the studs and selling off your hardware for pennies on the dollar while you oscillate between building for today with building for tomorrow - in that case, nothing gets accomplished, you piss away a full season with a misdiagnosis of the roster, and you have an extended rebuild on your hands.
good post man
Quote:
even 3 for that matter.
I did expect to see incremental improvements. And the list of needs to grow shorter.
Maybe more of the problems are with the coaching than it seems. But I look at the list of needs and it never gets shorter, even in the last 2 years.
Defense:
Dline: We have 3 run stuffers, still need a more dynamic player that can get an outside pass rush from the opposite side of the ER.
ER: obvious need
LB: We've trotted out hot garbage at LB for a decade, its still hot garbage and now we run a 3-4 which requires better LBs. We finally get one that looks to be at least competant and he promptly tears his ACL. Still need 3 of these.
CB: We've needed one opposite JJ since he got here. Noe JJ will be moving on... Baker seems likely to b a competent one, now we need a replacement on the other side. Slot CB seems like a forever need as well. plus depth.
FS: Needed one of these since Rolle moved to SS. Even Rolle was a hybrid DB. Need to go back Gibril Wilson since we had a true FS.
Offense:
OL: Need 2 tackles and a center. The Giants have been trying to plug in players off the NFL trash heap since the last SB. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing, that has failed in the past, over and over and expecting a better result. Except for Hernandez, the Giants haven't successfully drafted and developed an OL player since Will Beatty if you consider Beatty a success. Before that, you have to go back to Chris Snee 15 years ago. At best they have drafted and developed 3 OL in the last 15 years. That's just an incredible record of futility.
WR: looked like a strength for a while, but now OBJ is gone and SS might retire, if he returns, will he last, will he be the same guy going over the middle? And the last time this team had a real #2 WR was Manningham. Maybe, hopefully D. Slayton can grow into 1 starter role, but reality is they probably need 2 more in the next couple years.
TE: Ellison probably won't be back. Need a good in-line run blocking TE that can catch a pass.
In summary thats:
1 DL, 1 ER, 3 LB, 2 CB, 1 FS, 3 OL, 2 WR, 1 TE
That list just never seems to get shorter!
It feels like the Giants are spinning their wheels in the mud.
At least it doesn't include QB anymore. At least for now.
No team has studs everywhere.
I think that a really good free safety and inside LB would go a long way towards fixing the defense. An edge rusher would be nice, but I think we can get enough pressure with the guys we have.
On offense I agree two tackles and a center would be ideal, but a solid LT would fix a lot of what is wrong.
Summary - I think we are 3 really good players away from being a threat in the division. LT, ILB, FS. We need to protect DJ's blind side and improve the center of the defense. That is not saying we could improve in other places.
I just saw this...
Don't ya just love the excuse for the abject shittiness of the roster the "No team has studs everywhere" argument.
I mean its easy to identify no less than 14 positions where the team doesn't have a competent starter, and the bright side of that is that "No team has studs everywhere".
Well nowhere in my post did I say they needed 14 "studs"...
Of those 14 positions, the Giants next year literally have not a single player signed (or will likely remained signed) who can adequately man the position, or whomever they have signed and starting is so bad that they probably could not stick as a backup for half the teams in the league, or they are depending on a current rookie that hasn't gotten on the field yet.
CB: JJ is likely gone, the best candidate on the team to replace hi m is... wait for it... Beal.
Slot CB: Haley is the worst or one of the worst starting slot CB in the league.
ILB: Ogletree is such a good deal for the Giants that they were actively shopping him and there were no takers! He's terrible, but he is better than anybody else on the roster.
ILB:David Mayo, was mostly a backup at Carolina who got a chance to play due to injuries. The Panthers chose not to resign him. Been mostly invisible here, and is a FA at then end of the year...
ER: Golden has been decent, but he's a FA
OLB/ER: Carter, Ximines good depth rotational guys, neither has shown that they are solid starters yet. That they will become that is just hope right now.
OLB: Chris Peace - Peace who? Peace out! picked up on waivers... IDK
DL: THere are 3 solid if not better starters whose best trait is that they all are good run stuffers. Lawrence and Williams have shown some pass rushing ability, but its not their strength. Tomlinson has never shown much of a rush. A dynamic outside rusher would be a good thing here. But ok, maybe they can live without.
WR: Slayton, Shepard, Tate - Shepard's concussions are a serious concern, his future is in jeopardy, his family wants him to quit. Tate is 31, he is still solid slot receiver, but at 31 for how long, he at his age, he is unlikely to be here when this team contends, he is also overpaid. Slayton has shown ability, he may be solid starter. Still, with the age of Tate, the concussions of Shepard, and the hope that Slayton develops its not unreasonable to project that 2 out of 3 of those will not succeed, its a coin toss. If its a coin toss, a good GM better be planning for tails.
TE: Rhett Elison will almost certainly be cut loose. There is nobody on the roster that fills this position.
LT: Its Nate Solder... nuf said... Oh and he is 31 its gonna get worse. Team tried to ship him out, the league said, "uhhh. thanks but no thanks!", but there is no pipelin nobody on the roster to possible replace him
RT: Remmers is a FA, his play has been somewhat south of Meh...
C: Halapio.... He's just awful, could he stick as a backup on most other teams? IDK... The other choice is Pulley... So there's that...
That is 13 positions where a competent starter would be a huge upgrade. 1 where a stud would be nice.
But hey Reale01 says we only need 3 players to have a chance to win the division... So it must be true...
And the irony between his post and his handle is not lost on me.
Why not? DG declared that reports of Eli's decline were hogwash, or mularkey, or some folksy synonym of bullshit. He made decisions based upon that belief. Shouldn't they be a part of his assessment?
His clock started the day that DJ started his first game.
Quote:
Gettleman was supposed to fix what Jerry Reese and Marc Ross wrought for almost ten years. Is it the modern way that millennials think things can be fixed overnight.
I also don't get where DG is arrogant.
When you have to remind everyone about your resume every time you speak and make it a point to let everyone know that you're knowingly zigging where the numbers suggest you should zag, yes, that's fucking arrogance.
And it's not a millennial thing to expect the turnaround to be further along than it is - it's an NFL thing. The system is set up to help teams improve somewhat rapidly. Unless you take the approach of tearing the whole thing down to the studs and selling off your hardware for pennies on the dollar while you oscillate between building for today with building for tomorrow - in that case, nothing gets accomplished, you piss away a full season with a misdiagnosis of the roster, and you have an extended rebuild on your hands.
Quote:
How many here proclaiming how far the Giants are from winning, are the same posters, who were all in going forward with a 38 year old quarterback, who has been part of the losing you are sick off; even to the point you wanted the Giants to pass on Jones for the edge rushers.
Nice strawman you constructed there. I believe the argument went something along the lines of "why spend the #6 pick on a qb this year because there were questions concerning all of them in a relatively weak qb draft, when there were at least 4 qb's available for the 2020 draft and Manning was under contract for another year anyway. Take Josh Allen and get your qb from among the group coming out next year." These were for the most part folks who under no delusions about this being a good team this year.
+1. For the record I wanted Josh Rosen as QB - trading him for a 2nd and we can see DJones so far looks like the much better player (I wanted Oliver with the 6th pick and the 17th pick I wanted Dillard.).
But you are spot on with this. I think over the next year there is going to be some posts made trying to change the narrative over the past year or two and some others that will continue to blindly defend DG.
I can remember a post on here someone mentioning that most knew on here at BBI that they would stink anyways. Maybe but many -= much more than you'd think thought this team was a near .500 football team if not better. There was characterization that you're either a hater or miserable because if you felt you knew this team would stink you can't be anything other than that.
This has to be sarcasm. Thanks for the laugh.
Mara is scary because of fans like you.
Oh, well we'll look forward to that.
How close do you think the Giants will make it?
The Giants ARE far from winning...
I didn't like the Jones pick...
I wanted to wait until 2021 to get a QB...
I wanted Josh Allen so far Allen looks as good as advertised but given that...
On many posts now I have admitted that I was wrong about
Jones, no matter how he turns out he has justified the pick!
I have given kudos to DG for the pick!
I have been man enough to admit it.
What have you been man enough to admit?
joe - come on, where are you going with this stance?
You mean one of those Giants score late to make it look closer than it really was games?
Quote:
How many here proclaiming how far the Giants are from winning, are the same posters, who were all in going forward with a 38 year old quarterback, who has been part of the losing you are sick off; even to the point you wanted the Giants to pass on Jones for the edge rushers.
joe - come on, where are you going with this stance?
come on jimmy- you know where he is going with this. joe is one helluva classy poster. As much as he probably dislikes all the negativity he never goes over-the-top vs anyone - including me-- and I'm sure he probably wanted to. But he's a classy poster.
But he is also an optimist type of poster. Recently he made a post a few weeks ago stating why hadn't anyone considered GMEN could go 3-1 and be in the thick of the playoff hunt.
You'll rarely see much critical coming from joe. This post you know where he is coming from. It's a classy attempt as a dig against the negative posters. Not all negative is right. So this is his way of attacking lightly as he keeps an optimist view.
Quote:
How many here proclaiming how far the Giants are from winning, are the same posters, who were all in going forward with a 38 year old quarterback, who has been part of the losing you are sick off; even to the point you wanted the Giants to pass on Jones for the edge rushers.
The Giants ARE far from winning...
I didn't like the Jones pick...
I wanted to wait until 2021 to get a QB...
I wanted Josh Allen so far Allen looks as good as advertised but given that...
On many posts now I have admitted that I was wrong about
Jones, no matter how he turns out he has justified the pick!
I have given kudos to DG for the pick!
I have been man enough to admit it.
What have you been man enough to admit?
That's not "his thing." He's probably expecting a very good showing the next many weeks and a good draft and good pickups in FA and next year say how things are looking up.
Quote:
In comment 14657928 joeinpa said:
Quote:
How many here proclaiming how far the Giants are from winning, are the same posters, who were all in going forward with a 38 year old quarterback, who has been part of the losing you are sick off; even to the point you wanted the Giants to pass on Jones for the edge rushers.
The Giants ARE far from winning...
I didn't like the Jones pick...
I wanted to wait until 2021 to get a QB...
I wanted Josh Allen so far Allen looks as good as advertised but given that...
On many posts now I have admitted that I was wrong about
Jones, no matter how he turns out he has justified the pick!
I have given kudos to DG for the pick!
I have been man enough to admit it.
What have you been man enough to admit?
That's not "his thing." He's probably expecting a very good showing the next many weeks and a good draft and good pickups in FA and next year say how things are looking up.
ok
Quote:
In comment 14657928 joeinpa said:
Quote:
How many here proclaiming how far the Giants are from winning, are the same posters, who were all in going forward with a 38 year old quarterback, who has been part of the losing you are sick off; even to the point you wanted the Giants to pass on Jones for the edge rushers.
joe - come on, where are you going with this stance?
come on jimmy- you know where he is going with this. joe is one helluva classy poster. As much as he probably dislikes all the negativity he never goes over-the-top vs anyone - including me-- and I'm sure he probably wanted to. But he's a classy poster.
But he is also an optimist type of poster. Recently he made a post a few weeks ago stating why hadn't anyone considered GMEN could go 3-1 and be in the thick of the playoff hunt.
You'll rarely see much critical coming from joe. This post you know where he is coming from. It's a classy attempt as a dig against the negative posters. Not all negative is right. So this is his way of attacking lightly as he keeps an optimist view.
I do respect Joe's posts. What I despise though is lumping opinions of some broad set of posters to make a point. If there is one thing that is consistent on BBI, its we don't have some "same-store group" that can be quoted.
We have a myriad of variations in opinions, even ones that are directionally similar.
That's not "his thing." He's probably expecting a very good showing the next many weeks and a good draft and good pickups in FA and next year say how things are looking up.
I agree with you joe is a good poster...
That was a pretty provocative post, especially considering that I think the vast majority have come around on Jones, not his best moment.
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that Eli was the starting QB during the DG tenure.
Why not? DG declared that reports of Eli's decline were hogwash, or mularkey, or some folksy synonym of bullshit. He made decisions based upon that belief. Shouldn't they be a part of his assessment?
After hiring Shurmur, this is the biggest reason Gettleman should be fired. He completely bungled quarterback. Threw away two seasons.
Since letting go a Qb without another one in place sets up a very risky path forward not the least of which was a very unattractive place for any HC or Coordinators; what solution was available going back two years ago on the dates the contract deadlines had to be made?
1. Drafting a quarterback - we all know who the options were in 2018, and that we eventually landed on Jones in 2019
2. Trading for a young option. I listed the options many times over the last two years, and some have actually ended up becoming starting quarterbacks for varying reasons - I often listed guys like Brissett, Bridgewater, Rudolph, Driskel, Mullens, Sloter, Dobbs, and a couple others who surely could have been had in trade for less resources than we shelled out for Eli ($46M to go 5-13 in 2018 & 2019) and eventually Jones (#6 overall in 2019). In terms of resources allocated to the quarterback position these two years the Giants are surely at or near the top of the league, and we've seen the return for that investment.
This is not second guessing. I and others laid out numerous viable alternatives scenarios. The problem was that all of those scenarios included moving on from a team legend.
While you (if I'm understanding you correctly) fairly say that Gettleman was never going to move on from Eli until a proven alternative was in hand, he ended up being woefully wrong in that conviction. We lost games and he ended up handing the position to an unproven player anyway.
Given the mandate from ownership to play Eli, Gettleman's failure was his inability to move ownership off that foolish, foolish mandate.
How do you guys feel about that?
How do you guys feel about that?
We have a team run by a Politburo, and we're supposed to compete with well organized teams. It's a mess.