I read about all the complaints about Gettleman, and I get it, he's arrogant and the results havent been good. But at least he's not sitting on his ass like Jerry Reese did. I dont remember Reese ever trying to upgrade the roster during the season, he drafted shitty players and kept them too long.
I'm starting to lose faith in Shurmur as a HC but to be honest the offense was pretty good in the second half last season and he's working with a rookie QB who has potential despite the awful turnovers. I dont know if he can ever have a winning season the NFL but i guess he'll get one more year. I cant see them firing a guy who is working with mostly first and second year players (esp on D)
But when is this freaking team going to start to turn it around? I mean enough of this shit already. When is it gonna fucking click? I'm so tired of this. I feel like i'm a realist, and i know what this team is. But they really should have and could have won the previous 2 games. We're staring 2-7 in the face here and I have to sit there again on Monday night and watch fans of an opposing team celebrate in our home stadium.
I really dont see how they are going to get enough players to add to this roster next year to have a magical turn around like the 49ers have done.
So yeah i'm basically writing off 2020 as well at this point.
Rant over
1) Owners and many professionals often don't take risks like dropping a QB before a new one is at least semi proven. Or agreeing to provide volume before the new plant is up. Or releasing products that are ideas. This is especially true when ownership is divided with shareholders and other owners
2) what was the cap hit for releasing him either of those two times?
3) I suspect, with no no no factual knowledge that ownership restricted the Eli option. I don't fault any GM for those kinds of restrictions. Owners do that to professional ranks all the time in many many businesses.
Id find fault with individual decisions like Stewart that I cant find a rationale that holds up. But the Eli play is one that I cant find too much fault with
Mara? Its speculation but I suspect Mara and or Tisch were not going to be shamed all the way to Eli's gold jacket. It was an emotional decision by guys who own for other reasons than winning at all costs. imo.
1) Owners and many professionals often don't take risks like dropping a QB before a new one is at least semi proven. Or agreeing to provide volume before the new plant is up. Or releasing products that are ideas. This is especially true when ownership is divided with shareholders and other owners
2) what was the cap hit for releasing him either of those two times?
3) I suspect, with no no no factual knowledge that ownership restricted the Eli option. I don't fault any GM for those kinds of restrictions. Owners do that to professional ranks all the time in many many businesses.
Id find fault with individual decisions like Stewart that I cant find a rationale that holds up. But the Eli play is one that I cant find too much fault with
Mara? Its speculation but I suspect Mara and or Tisch were not going to be shamed all the way to Eli's gold jacket. It was an emotional decision by guys who own for other reasons than winning at all costs. imo.
On #3 - do those same GMs make multiple public statements about how the decision was theirs and qualify it? Gettleman made more than a few comments about how Eli had plenty of game left, they were going to build around him, etc.
If Gettleman does go, I'd love to get that job. He's basically accountable for nothing - holes on the roster? Well, his predecessor left him holes. Paying a QB beyond his usefulness? Well, the owners forced that. FAs that weren't worth it? Well, everyone's bound to make a few mistakes. Seems nice to have a job where accountability isn't an issue.
1) Owners and many professionals often don't take risks like dropping a QB before a new one is at least semi proven. Or agreeing to provide volume before the new plant is up. Or releasing products that are ideas. This is especially true when ownership is divided with shareholders and other owners
2) what was the cap hit for releasing him either of those two times?
3) I suspect, with no no no factual knowledge that ownership restricted the Eli option. I don't fault any GM for those kinds of restrictions. Owners do that to professional ranks all the time in many many businesses.
Id find fault with individual decisions like Stewart that I cant find a rationale that holds up. But the Eli play is one that I cant find too much fault with
Mara? Its speculation but I suspect Mara and or Tisch were not going to be shamed all the way to Eli's gold jacket. It was an emotional decision by guys who own for other reasons than winning at all costs. imo.
I can't take too much time here, but in response to #1, that's exactly what happened: Eli was dropped after two games in favor of a completely untested, unproven rookie.
I can't recall the cap hit to cut Eli last year, but this year it would have been $6M. They're paying him $23M. So they paid him $17M to take the training camp reps from Jones, lose two starts, and sit on the bench. A horrific use of available resources; calling it professional is kind.
How do you guys feel about that?
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Before making the Williams trade? That was in the interview that just came out.
How do you guys feel about that?
why do you think Gettleman was hired in the first place? He knows “the way we do things” and that means consulting the two sperm recipients for their pro player personnel “acumen”
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Is going to be a lot closer than many of you think
Oh, well we'll look forward to that.
How close do you think the Giants will make it?
Look I have a stalker...How cute!
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That's not "his thing." He's probably expecting a very good showing the next many weeks and a good draft and good pickups in FA and next year say how things are looking up.
I agree with you joe is a good poster...
That was a pretty provocative post, especially considering that I think the vast majority have come around on Jones, not his best moment.
I guess I didn’t make my point well. I was suggesting that if anyone was opposed to taking a quarterback this season because they felt Giants might contend with Eli, it seems inconsistent to now suggest they are no where ready to turn things around.
You guys are right about my optimistic view though. I m usually ready for the next game and conjuring up images that they can win.
But I remember years like 1980, another in a long line of losing, and how one player changed all that. L. T.
Not suggesting there is another L. T. On the horizon, but it does remind of how one or two playmakers can raise the level of those around them.
Back in March, please name who on this board or in the NFL who would have but money behind Daniel Joes starting by game 2???
Who thought there would be any acceptable QB at 6, or if Jones was a 1st rounder, or if he could play much or be ready to play by the second game?
Back in March, you thought the 6th pick should be Hockenson.
That's when the decision had to be made.
The prior year, once it was not Mayfield, the rest are unproven, the OL was even worse than this year by a lot or Lamar Jackson was available at the slot he was available.
Now, both you and I favored Lamar Jackson, but many a team and many a person would still see that as a risky choice...much less in March of that year when just about everyone saw it as a risky choice.
imo, these decisions are not so one sided as to be proof of incompetence. Nor is the record so far proof he is a good GM. imo
Conversely, I think PS provides a ton of clear evidence that slants to proof of a HC that isn't going to get us past a playoff game
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In comment 14658197 giantstock said:
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That's not "his thing." He's probably expecting a very good showing the next many weeks and a good draft and good pickups in FA and next year say how things are looking up.
I agree with you joe is a good poster...
That was a pretty provocative post, especially considering that I think the vast majority have come around on Jones, not his best moment.
I guess I didn’t make my point well. I was suggesting that if anyone was opposed to taking a quarterback this season because they felt Giants might contend with Eli, it seems inconsistent to now suggest they are no where ready to turn things around.
You guys are right about my optimistic view though. I m usually ready for the next game and conjuring up images that they can win.
But I remember years like 1980, another in a long line of losing, and how one player changed all that. L. T.
Not suggesting there is another L. T. On the horizon, but it does remind of how one or two playmakers can raise the level of those around them.
Well, I was never really optimistic about this season. I could see a criticism of me, that I was never optimistic, the season is bad just like I thought, so why am I complaining? To that I would say, I thought it would be bad, but I wanted to see improvement. There is no improvement, and I have always been disappointed how the OL has been handled.
We have morphed into one of those teams (and fan base) that accepts losing. We watch the opening kickoff knowing we are likely going to lose.
I believe ownership accepts losing at this point too. They would never admit it and of course they would prefer to win. However, nobody in the front office is throwing chairs across the room.
The team has officially become a bottom feeder and the rest of the league an fan base knows it. We are the Cleveland Browns at this point.
The team is a cash cow that is supporting a very large Mara family. They are going to do just enough to keep you interested.
John Mara could possibly read this and say "bullshit, I am doing everything I can to help the team win". Well, John.. maybe that is part of the problem. What you need to do is NOT tinker with the team and turn every decision over to a professional.
If the Giants freed themselves from the false ultamatum of Manning or rookie, things go more logically.
There are only 2 viable scenarios and both make management look silly.
1) Management evaluated Manning after the 2017 campaign and foolishly thought he was the type of player with enough left to build a contender around
2) Management evaluated Manning after the 20017 campaign and thought he wasn't the type of player with enough talent to build a contender around, and still made the financial and personnel decisions to continue the charade
But I remember years like 1980, another in a long line of losing, and how one player changed all that. L. T.
Not suggesting there is another L. T. On the horizon, but it does remind of how one or two playmakers can raise the level of those around them.
It was more than just LT Joe. We both lived through those years. Remember the 70s? Those teams and the Giants of the past 7 years are basically the same. Poor management from the top to the bottom and we as fans expected the team to lose.
When LT came here changes were already in motion. The Mara's were no longer making football decisions. Better coaches were being put in place. Then, Parcells started to cut or trade players who were not on board regardless as to how good they were. Losing was simply unacceptable.
So, you think they should or could have cut Eli and brought in a backup QB (ie Bridgewater) to be our starter?
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The Giants didn't have to replace Manning with the future going into the 2018 campaign. They could have filled the spot with a replacement level quarterback at a deep discount, and proceeded patiently.
So, you think they should or could have cut Eli and brought in a backup QB (ie Bridgewater) to be our starter?
Sure, why not?
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Mara is scary because of fans like you.
I know Mara wants to win. I know he means well. I’m not knocking the guy’s intentions or even his character as an owner. Shit I’m probably the biggest nyg apologist on this board. I just think Mara’s decision making these last few years has been poor. Until that changes I’ll be leery. And his old man wasn’t any better for too long of a stretch. The Mara’s have historically been extremely hit or miss. As a matter of fact no pro franchise has been more topsy turvy than the NY Football Giants. The Mara’s are right smack in the middle of that vortex. Every giants fan should be worried. The guy fired Tom coughlin for Ben mcadoo.
And call me crazy but I’m perfectly content with Eli as a mentor/backup. If he wants to remain in that role next year I’d have no issue with it assuming he’ll take a contract in line with that role.
Hopefully the sentimental days are behind ownership and/or management.
Hopefully the sentimental days are behind ownership and/or management.
Agree it didn’t advance anything, but he turned out to be nothing more than a placeholder until they were able to get the guy who could (Jones). Elis presence didn’t set us back near as much as rushing and getting the wrong guy would have. Bill correctly points out someone had to play QB and you generally don’t move on from whatever your best option is until you have a replacement. Downgrading to someone like Fitz just for the sake of moving on doesn’t make sense unless there’s a good use of the money saved. Had they used that money poorly like they have on probably half the FA’s they’ve signed over 2 years they actually would have ended up setting themselves back even more. Though I’m sure everyone on BBI would have only used the $ on guys like Shaq Barrett.
We still had Lauletta on the roster; if the intent was to develop someone behind Eli he still made sense. That avenue was damaged in part by Shurmur's inexcusable treatment of him in 2018, and their stupid insistence on playing Eli after the season was over at 1-7.
Gettleman is being cited by many as having performed well in the early stages of a multi-year rebuild, but there are numerous examples of asset mismanagement - the most blatant of which has been the handling of the quarterback position from day one.
And none of that is hindsight. I was saying it since Gettleman was hired, and the situation has played out more or less as I thought it would: a failure.
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Paying Eli Manning 45M dollars the last two years did absolutely nothing to advance the Giants toward a championship.
Hopefully the sentimental days are behind ownership and/or management.
Agree it didn’t advance anything, but he turned out to be nothing more than a placeholder until they were able to get the guy who could (Jones). Elis presence didn’t set us back near as much as rushing and getting the wrong guy would have. Bill correctly points out someone had to play QB and you generally don’t move on from whatever your best option is until you have a replacement. Downgrading to someone like Fitz just for the sake of moving on doesn’t make sense unless there’s a good use of the money saved. Had they used that money poorly like they have on probably half the FA’s they’ve signed over 2 years they actually would have ended up setting themselves back even more. Though I’m sure everyone on BBI would have only used the $ on guys like Shaq Barrett.
I don't agree with any of this.
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In comment 14658339 christian said:
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The Giants didn't have to replace Manning with the future going into the 2018 campaign. They could have filled the spot with a replacement level quarterback at a deep discount, and proceeded patiently.
So, you think they should or could have cut Eli and brought in a backup QB (ie Bridgewater) to be our starter?
Sure, why not?
Right.... and the meltdown here if we did that. Mara lived through the over-reaction from the fans when Eli was benched for ONE GAME in a meaningless season for a backup QB. Imagine actually cutting him for a backup.
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In comment 14658341 EricJ said:
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In comment 14658339 christian said:
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The Giants didn't have to replace Manning with the future going into the 2018 campaign. They could have filled the spot with a replacement level quarterback at a deep discount, and proceeded patiently.
So, you think they should or could have cut Eli and brought in a backup QB (ie Bridgewater) to be our starter?
Sure, why not?
Right.... and the meltdown here if we did that. Mara lived through the over-reaction from the fans when Eli was benched for ONE GAME in a meaningless season for a backup QB. Imagine actually cutting him for a backup.
That's kind of the whole problem. Even if you don't think Eli should have been cut (and I understand the thinking from those who opposed the idea), the idea that Mara, or anyone else in the Giants front office, would make decisions based on fear of overreactions from any segment of the fanbase is a frightening (yet extremely likely) possibility.
The franchise let things decay around Eli until is was obvious that Eli had also decayed (obvious for some). Then they couldn't get themselves to clean house so they brought in an old friend to help them right the ship.
But unfortunately he also seemed to get sucked up into the slow steady meltdown process amongst many, but not all, of his decisions...
Based on a problem solving givens you assigned that was financially logical.
But over weighing any one dimension of the decision calculus produces Jones vs Hockenson. For that matter all these critiques.
Decisions any GM makes need to consider overall long term financially sound cap management, pay vs performance per person, some design for competing ( "We are going to over spend our cap on these competitive advantage unit or this performer differentiation"), some + or - projected contribution to the likely health of the team ( oft injured vs the durable), etc.
And what is available right now this minute?
Lastly a pure financial decision ( I already spent on Eli so I cant over commit on another QB and must draft a TE in the 6 slot even though I got killed for drafting a RB in the 2 slot by some fans on BBI) forgets that absent an attractive QB to build on for a new coach...I am consigned to very poor choices if I needed a new coach.
Before you claim a new coach needs his own QB choice ( which is a pretty debatable stance imo) lets capture the main point I hope to articulate: The GM job requires fluid calculation of many factors.
What I see a lot of is posters picking a different dominate factor each and every time to apply to how they would have done things differently.
Too many start with a fixed end in mind: " the GM sucks" he didn't even think about XX and WW and VV" those are then important factors. He is lost"
Next decision:
" He sucks" . While some stupid posters claim its a good trade on the XX, WW and VV; they forget how lost he is on AA and CC and GG. Totally stupid and so are those who argue otherwise"
This way of torturing all data into confessing a pre determined conclusion leads to:
" The Giants are unimaginative and are stuck in the mud taking no chances to be great. We will never be any better under the GM"
"He traded a 3rd and 5th for a chance to have a very good DL? He sucks. why would he take a chance like that when we need every draft pick we can so we can take a 16% chances on a depth player. We will never be any better under this GM"
Again, im not defending DG. There are not yet enough terrible choices versus good ones to determine where he is on the scale of god to bad given the bad set of choices a cap hell talent hell mess.
And before we jump to: "instant turnarounds happen in the NFl ( yes they do. A small percent of the time)" that's not what the majority of the data suggests. The majority of the data suggests teams with winning records over ten years are on the thin end of a bell shaped curve with the preponderance of teams ( an therefore GMS) stuck in the middle at .400-.550 win loss records for long periods of time.
Once again, I don't know yet about the GM. Decisions at that job are murky and take longer to play out. Imo, the HC has more then enough clear data on tape to start planning who comes next. I don't buy that turning over the play calling to a true OC isn't more muddle than relief from his propensity for bad decisions and poor preparation and tendency to freeze under time pressure.
Good talking to you. Take care
but I get the sentiment... :-)
What happens when I post after waking instead of getting 2 cups of coffee
Whats more we seem to produce really unwatchable football.
We don't lose with competent coaching and not enough talent. nor talent vastly better than incompetent coaching. Prior to this season we lose mis-firing on all cylinders.
Im watching this season to figure out if Jones is just ok, a turnover machine, a top ten Qb or a top 5 someday. As with all rookie QBs on bad teams, this season is like watching paint dry. Its why we are already talking about next year
Some people here just would rather be right about their opinions than GASP change their mind because that would totally be admitting defeat. Smart people make bad initial decision all the time, but what separates the men from the boys is being able to admit you made a mistake, cut your losses instead of doubling down, especially if it isn't totally apparent.
For example, I am totally convinced now that PS can't be a Super Bowl winning coach. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he'd learn from his piss poor in game management problems with Browns, but he hasn't. He doesn't add enough to his side of the ball like Reid does, makes way too many poor in game decisions dating back to his Browns days (and I'm not talking about all the dummies who insist going for 2 is an awful decision no matter what unless you absolutely need the points), and he just seems to be a poor communicator and leader overall.
I guess the in game decision making could get better, but after 4 years I have little hope and I doubt he is going to wake up a be an inspiring head football coach. So that leads us with option 1 - which I could see as feasible, especially with DJ under center now, maybe we can 30ppg our way into a Superbowl victory, but I just feel that once we get good, which I believe is next year, he is just going to find ways to lose games with his decision making. If that happens I'll gladly eat fucking crow about the guy, or if he suddenly starts to get better with the in game decision making I'll be like hey the light when on for this guy, and won't eviscerate him over one mistake.
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In comment 14658380 christian said:
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Paying Eli Manning 45M dollars the last two years did absolutely nothing to advance the Giants toward a championship.
Hopefully the sentimental days are behind ownership and/or management.
Agree it didn�t advance anything, but he turned out to be nothing more than a placeholder until they were able to get the guy who could (Jones). Elis presence didn�t set us back near as much as rushing and getting the wrong guy would have. Bill correctly points out someone had to play QB and you generally don�t move on from whatever your best option is until you have a replacement. Downgrading to someone like Fitz just for the sake of moving on doesn�t make sense unless there�s a good use of the money saved. Had they used that money poorly like they have on probably half the FA�s they�ve signed over 2 years they actually would have ended up setting themselves back even more. Though I�m sure everyone on BBI would have only used the $ on guys like Shaq Barrett.
I don't agree with any of this.
Yeah, it’s the old “it’s ok that they fucked up because they would have fucked something else anyway “ argument.
Not exactly confidence inspiring
I understand that his main function this year was the smooth transition from Eli and the development of Jones. Near as any of us can tell, that main contribution is going well.
But I think PS is leaving as many plays on the field per game as any Giant in that particular game.
Whats more, I think the big decisions in winnable games that turn out to be the correct choice is a negative percentage.
I have not yet seen a game since he became HC that we won on game plan.
While I see a team that plays hard for him, I don't think that last into next year.
I get that the logical thing to do is to get two Coordinators off season so you can pick one for HC someday and maybe that's the way to get new blood but I don't know how that solves in game decisions.
If Williams plays up to potential and Jones progresses, I can see how we become a more attractive destination for coaching talent.
By next year, there is enough talent that coaching is worth 2-4 wins a year. After QB, and then after two decent average lines, that's the swing factor
I'm concerned a guy who is a pro player personnel executive by trade (and a good one) has been so wrong when acquiring and evaluating pros.
- wrong Manning had playoff quality play left in 18
- wrong Manning had anything left in 19
- wrong Bathea had anything left
- wrong Stewart had anything left
- wrong Omameh was worth an investment
- wrong Solder was in the same zip code as a top player
- wrong OBJ could operate professionally in a culture first environment and re-signed him
- wrong on Kareem Martin
- wrong on Ogletree's value
Admitting mistakes is an admirable quality. Avoiding mistakes is compensatable quality.
I’ve seen this referenced with Jones, but I don’t see it referenced with Mayfield & Darnold who very well may have new coaches next year.
Well, after the McAdoo firing, the Philly game happened. It was enough for everyone in the building to hope for another run with Eli. It was likely an organizational decision & every move associated with trying to win that year did not work. With that said, Jones looks promising & 2020 will be a very crucial offseason for Gettleman.
With all the outcry over the Barkley pick at 2 with regards to positional value. Would everyone feel better if that pick was Rosen?
They deserve all the criticisms, legitimate or not. We are practically on the same level as Browns. We may not realize it but rest of the league definitely take us for laughing stocks.
If some fans are not happy wasting their Sunday afternoons on a lousy product, let them complain, what’s the big deal?
With all the outcry over the Barkley pick at 2 with regards to positional value. Would everyone feel better if that pick was Rosen?
did it make you feel better to post this thought-provoking nugget?
Probably not. But this plays into the fallacy the Giants had to pick a QB in 2018 or stick with Manning for two more years.
The Giants very easily could have cut Manning, picked Nelson, picked Braden Smith, signed a stop gap QB, and looked to 2019 to pick a QB. New GM, new coach, it was the perfect time to hard refresh.
The story of 2018 has turned into a myth where Gettleman had no options, which is comically untrue.
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But I remember years like 1980, another in a long line of losing, and how one player changed all that. L. T.
Not suggesting there is another L. T. On the horizon, but it does remind of how one or two playmakers can raise the level of those around them.
It was more than just LT Joe. We both lived through those years. Remember the 70s? Those teams and the Giants of the past 7 years are basically the same. Poor management from the top to the bottom and we as fans expected the team to lose.
When LT came here changes were already in motion. The Mara's were no longer making football decisions. Better coaches were being put in place. Then, Parcells started to cut or trade players who were not on board regardless as to how good they were. Losing was simply unacceptable.
Yep that s a good pt. Guess I m more hopeful than many that Gettleman is the guy.
Seems like a pretty low bar
It's too easy to have all of the information we have no and say NYG should have done x, y, and z in the 2018 draft. It's an exercise in futility, and yet, we do it on a daily basis.
We already know now how a lot of those players are playing, where they were drafted, and have information we did not have at the time. We don't get to just look at the board and cherry pick the best possible yield for NYG and leave everything else unchanged.
The world doesn't work that way, and neither does football.
So far the results are pretty terrible toward those three goals, with a corresponding W/L record to match.
It's too easy to have all of the information we have no and say NYG should have done x, y, and z in the 2018 draft. It's an exercise in futility, and yet, we do it on a daily basis.
We already know now how a lot of those players are playing, where they were drafted, and have information we did not have at the time. We don't get to just look at the board and cherry pick the best possible yield for NYG and leave everything else unchanged.
The world doesn't work that way, and neither does football.
Completely agree - and the worst part is most are beyond complaining about the players picked since they've actually been good picks and have moved on to intangible arguments about "maximizing draft capital" and "cap flexibility".
Put me in the category of sick and tired of losing, happy to have Jones/Barkley/Williams/Lawrence/Peppers et al, and hopeful they can turn the tide. I'm not optimistic about the coaching but that's another story.
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I'm almost as sick and tired of these hindsight GM 'suggestions' as I am all the losing.
It's too easy to have all of the information we have no and say NYG should have done x, y, and z in the 2018 draft. It's an exercise in futility, and yet, we do it on a daily basis.
We already know now how a lot of those players are playing, where they were drafted, and have information we did not have at the time. We don't get to just look at the board and cherry pick the best possible yield for NYG and leave everything else unchanged.
The world doesn't work that way, and neither does football.
Completely agree - and the worst part is most are beyond complaining about the players picked since they've actually been good picks and have moved on to intangible arguments about "maximizing draft capital" and "cap flexibility".
Put me in the category of sick and tired of losing, happy to have Jones/Barkley/Williams/Lawrence/Peppers et al, and hopeful they can turn the tide. I'm not optimistic about the coaching but that's another story.
Yep, and many of the 'we made a grave mistake in taking Barkley over Darnold (or Rosen/Allen...)' group have already shifted into 'well, we could have taken Nelson in a trade down' now that Darnold is having such a miserable 2019.
Easy to do now.
Coaching staff is clearly an issue; that's one thing most of the fans seem to agree on.
It's too easy to have all of the information we have no and say NYG should have done x, y, and z in the 2018 draft. It's an exercise in futility, and yet, we do it on a daily basis.
We already know now how a lot of those players are playing, where they were drafted, and have information we did not have at the time. We don't get to just look at the board and cherry pick the best possible yield for NYG and leave everything else unchanged.
The world doesn't work that way, and neither does football.
Would you agree the good GMs make more good decisions than bad in the draft and veteran acquisitions? And that these decisions are at the heart of winning and losing?
Would you agree ownership should judge and ultimately retain management based on having made more good than bad decisions?
Hopefully ownership is doing this type of second guessing exhaustively.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I haven't shifted or whitewashed any of my views on the 2018 draft. What I felt before it is consistent with what I feel now, and IMO what is playing out in reality.