I read about all the complaints about Gettleman, and I get it, he's arrogant and the results havent been good. But at least he's not sitting on his ass like Jerry Reese did. I dont remember Reese ever trying to upgrade the roster during the season, he drafted shitty players and kept them too long.
I'm starting to lose faith in Shurmur as a HC but to be honest the offense was pretty good in the second half last season and he's working with a rookie QB who has potential despite the awful turnovers. I dont know if he can ever have a winning season the NFL but i guess he'll get one more year. I cant see them firing a guy who is working with mostly first and second year players (esp on D)
But when is this freaking team going to start to turn it around? I mean enough of this shit already. When is it gonna fucking click? I'm so tired of this. I feel like i'm a realist, and i know what this team is. But they really should have and could have won the previous 2 games. We're staring 2-7 in the face here and I have to sit there again on Monday night and watch fans of an opposing team celebrate in our home stadium.
I really dont see how they are going to get enough players to add to this roster next year to have a magical turn around like the 49ers have done.
So yeah i'm basically writing off 2020 as well at this point.
Rant over
I'm not the one that's needed sense talked to him.
I'm concerned a guy who is a pro player personnel executive by trade (and a good one) has been so wrong when acquiring and evaluating pros.
- wrong Manning had playoff quality play left in 18
- wrong Manning had anything left in 19
- wrong Bathea had anything left
- wrong Stewart had anything left
- wrong Omameh was worth an investment
- wrong Solder was in the same zip code as a top player
- wrong OBJ could operate professionally in a culture first environment and re-signed him
- wrong on Kareem Martin
- wrong on Ogletree's value
Admitting mistakes is an admirable quality. Avoiding mistakes is compensatable quality.
+1(000000000000000000000000)
Too much credit is given to admitting mistakes." His getting Jones might alleviate all of it eventually- with a start by hitting a home run 2020 draft and FA pickups. But way too many "my bads."
Do you think Barkley was a good pick? The guy has as many yards + TD's + big plays as any player in the sport since he came into the NFL and some talk about it like he's Cedric Jones.
Do you think Jones was a good pick? Well i'm sorry to tell you even though he may be better than the more popular picks like Haskins and Rosen, they stuck with Eli too long.
Do you like Dexter Lawrence? Well Josh Allen would have been better.
And in FA/trades Gettleman seems to have done much better this year - Zeitler has been solid, Golden has been a good pickup, Tate has played well, and even Remmers/Mayo have been decent.
Things are far from perfect but IMO the talent level on both sides of the ball has gotten better and now more of the problem is clearly the guys on the sidelines not doing a good enough job (as opposed to the GM in the press box).
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I'm almost as sick and tired of these hindsight GM 'suggestions' as I am all the losing.
It's too easy to have all of the information we have no and say NYG should have done x, y, and z in the 2018 draft. It's an exercise in futility, and yet, we do it on a daily basis.
We already know now how a lot of those players are playing, where they were drafted, and have information we did not have at the time. We don't get to just look at the board and cherry pick the best possible yield for NYG and leave everything else unchanged.
The world doesn't work that way, and neither does football.
Would you agree the good GMs make more good decisions than bad in the draft and veteran acquisitions? And that these decisions are at the heart of winning and losing?
Would you agree ownership should judge and ultimately retain management based on having made more good than bad decisions?
Hopefully ownership is doing this type of second guessing exhaustively.
Well, yeah - this is pretty much all falling squarely into the 'no shit' category. Management making good decisions should be retained, management making consistently poor ones should not.
I'm not finding too many decisions of the 'bad' variety as far as drafting goes when it comes to Gettleman. The bulk of the bad decisions seem to have come in the way of FA signings and cap management. So, it's a mixed bag. Where do we decide to draw the line?
An outstanding football player like Saquon Barkley should really not be pointed to as the problem with a football team - yet, we keep wrongly going back to him and identifying him as such - as if drafting Quinton Nelson 2nd overall was going to be the magic elixir for the Giants.
I'm just growing tired of this same discussion being beaten to death on a weekly basis here. All last year, it was Darnold (or QB) that we fucked up by passing on in 2018. Now, it's conveniently changed to Nelson.
And yes, some people - including me - would loved to have drafted Nelson. But, we didn't. And no matter how many times we revisit this discussion, it changes nothing. Quinton Nelson doesn't do anything to address this defense - which is still not good.
Never mind that Gettleman helped hire Shurmur, and reportedly made at least one major personnel mistake (signing Beckham) on Shurmur's recommendation.
Blaming Shurmur for everything accomplished the goal of identifying a culprit while being able to maintain the illusion that the ship is still well run. While Shurmur most certainly is incompetent, he isn't the sole reason this team is so dreadful.
I wanted and wish the Giants had picked Nelson at no. 2 because as we see, premium lineman are getting to be unicorns in this league. I don't think picking Barkley was a tragedy, I just don't think it was good value. I don't think it's the no brainer some describe it to be.
I loved and love the Jones pick. I loved and love the Lawrence pick.
All things considered I'm not sure eating Vernon's guaranteed money and taking on Zeitler's big salary has landed the Giants in that much better of a position than if the Giants had just retained Brown. I think Zeitler is living a little on rep right now, and the Giants run game was remarkably good last year when Brown entered the lineup.
It's too easy to have all of the information we have no and say NYG should have done x, y, and z in the 2018 draft. It's an exercise in futility, and yet, we do it on a daily basis.
We already know now how a lot of those players are playing, where they were drafted, and have information we did not have at the time. We don't get to just look at the board and cherry pick the best possible yield for NYG and leave everything else unchanged.
The world doesn't work that way, and neither does football.
The problem with your post here is that at times when someone complains about DG the reply is "what would you have done? (Implying there was no other option.)" Or if you just complain the reply is "Well I don't see any answers from you" or "There were no other answers and we had to do it."
You can't have it both ways here. If you don't agree with the complaining you naturally don't believe the ones complaining have the right option. And if you are complaining you either have an idea what you wanted done differently or the one who isn't complaining asks for an explanation for your counter view.
This is why in part you have this board. To discuss these type of things. It just sounds like from your post that you don't want to hear any complaining. If you do, then at least in some part you have to discuss what/how you would have done it differently.
There's too much grey area to make it all so cut and dry.
My view of Gettleman is basically what I said above. I think the draft has been more good than bad; there's a good amount of players drafted in the last 2 years that seem like they're starting-caliber players or can help to some degree. Not many of them look like blown or wasted picks.
But, his FA signings and cap management have been poor.
So, it's a mixed bag - he's doing some good things, some not good things. Shurmur shouldn't get all of the blame while Gettleman gets none of it.
There are so many different aspects to it, though - I don't think we can quite simplify things to that degree where it's Shurmur = Bad, Gettleman = Good.
To be clear, Shurmur (and Bettcher) sucking donkey balls is 100% a mark against Gettleman. Possibly the biggest mistake his made since getting hired here. But it's part of the mixed bag of making probably over 100 personnel decisions in the last 2 years. Some will work out, some won't. Getting the QB right was the most important one and fortunately that's looking good right now (which Shurmur deserves some credit for since he's a QB guy even if it does turn out he's a shitty HC).
2. Decisions about Eli were made partially due to the over reaction by his benching a couple of years ago. The team at that time looked like they were ready to make that decision Christian is talking about BUT the paying customers had an issue with it.
3. The whole thing really cannot be fully evaluated until we see how Jones develops.
4. Nobody has suggested what other QB in the league was available AND willing to play for this team.
* I mention #4 because there is the idea here that if there is a player out there, the Giants can just sign him. I truly believe the Giants made offers to other free agents in the past who simply did not want to play for this team. Whitworth is one that comes to mind.
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I'm almost as sick and tired of these hindsight GM 'suggestions' as I am all the losing.
It's too easy to have all of the information we have no and say NYG should have done x, y, and z in the 2018 draft. It's an exercise in futility, and yet, we do it on a daily basis.
We already know now how a lot of those players are playing, where they were drafted, and have information we did not have at the time. We don't get to just look at the board and cherry pick the best possible yield for NYG and leave everything else unchanged.
The world doesn't work that way, and neither does football.
The problem with your post here is that at times when someone complains about DG the reply is "what would you have done? (Implying there was no other option.)" Or if you just complain the reply is "Well I don't see any answers from you" or "There were no other answers and we had to do it."
You can't have it both ways here. If you don't agree with the complaining you naturally don't believe the ones complaining have the right option. And if you are complaining you either have an idea what you wanted done differently or the one who isn't complaining asks for an explanation for your counter view.
This is why in part you have this board. To discuss these type of things. It just sounds like from your post that you don't want to hear any complaining. If you do, then at least in some part you have to discuss what/how you would have done it differently.
Complaining is fine when it's sincere or being done without the benefit of hindsight.
Not when it's taking known data and rearranging a POV to conveniently work and make sense now that we're privy to things we weren't at the time - which is what a lot of people are doing. And, it's easy to do.
We know which players have looked good in the early going in 2018/19 now - so, all we need to do is take the draft results from either one, identify good players at our own positions of need, and then say "we should have drafted him instead!"
Boy, that's hard.
I've already shared opinions of things I would have done differently.
I wanted the Giants to draft Josh Allen @ 6 this year. I wanted a Barkley/Lamar Jackson pair in 2018. I liked Quinton Nelson a ton, considered him a blue chipper and said I'd absolutely be on board with NYG taking him.
I'd be happy to find these posts that weren't made after the fact and share them with you if you'd like.
I was okay with drafting Saquon Barkley where we did and still am. I haven't pivoted there. I considered him an elite prospect along with a few others in 2018 and said I wanted to make sure we got one of those guys. We can argue positional value until the cows come home, but we did wind up getting one of those elite prospects.
2. Decisions about Eli were made partially due to the over reaction by his benching a couple of years ago. The team at that time looked like they were ready to make that decision Christian is talking about BUT the paying customers had an issue with it.
3. The whole thing really cannot be fully evaluated until we see how Jones develops.
4. Nobody has suggested what other QB in the league was available AND willing to play for this team.
* I mention #4 because there is the idea here that if there is a player out there, the Giants can just sign him. I truly believe the Giants made offers to other free agents in the past who simply did not want to play for this team. Whitworth is one that comes to mind.
#4. I must have mentioned possible trade targets a million times, even on this thread.
Drafts - Jones, Lawrence, Barkley, Connelly look real good, not a lot of bad. Beal may have been a wasted pick but I guess we'll see soon enough.
Trades - Zeitler good, Ogletree bad, JPP good, OBJ looking good, Leonard Williams TBD.
FA - Solder bad, M. Golden very good, G. Tate good, Kareem Martin bad, Jon Stewart bad, Remmers ok.
Coach - this looks awful right now. Shurmur has done ok with the offense and the rookie QB, but the defense is a dumpster fire. Fortunately changing coaches is easier than changing players.
To me it's pretty simple, he's gotten some big decisions right and I see progress in the right direction with the roster. The drafts have been the best positive, especially the Jones decision, coaching hires the biggest negative. He needs to get the coaching figured out this offseason or he may not get another one even with the good drafting.
That's the bottom line. The rest is conjecture and rationalization.
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1. Eli was basically DONE for a few years now. He has not elevated the team in a very long time.
2. Decisions about Eli were made partially due to the over reaction by his benching a couple of years ago. The team at that time looked like they were ready to make that decision Christian is talking about BUT the paying customers had an issue with it.
3. The whole thing really cannot be fully evaluated until we see how Jones develops.
4. Nobody has suggested what other QB in the league was available AND willing to play for this team.
* I mention #4 because there is the idea here that if there is a player out there, the Giants can just sign him. I truly believe the Giants made offers to other free agents in the past who simply did not want to play for this team. Whitworth is one that comes to mind.
#4. I must have mentioned possible trade targets a million times, even on this thread.
Honest question, at this point isn't it a lot more significant that Jones looks to be a better option than pretty much all the other options over the last 2 years, than to lament not choosing those other options?
I don't remember your list specifically but I recall names like Josh Rosen and Mason Rudolph and possibly even Brissett being discussed generally. Do you not agree that Jones looks like a better option for the future? Or see how acquiring a different QB prior to drafting Jones may have led to not drafting Jones?
I think the Lions nabbed someone from NE as their GM to pair with Patricia (they still pissed away a ton of money in FA - very anti-Patriots).
Do I need to even get into John Dorsey? Funny, the national media loves Dorsey and mocks Gettleman.
I liked Riddick until he revealed what his plan was going to be.
Scott Pioli? Wasn’t he a disaster in KC?
I’m not saying Gettleman has done great, but he hasn’t been a complete disaster (unlike Shurmur). Bashing Gettleman for the Solder contract is easy to do with the benefit of hindsight, but in real time most people liked that signing.
The issue is GM/HC do not generally get the security needed to build a program. They get desperate and make moves to sacrifice the long term for the short term. I do think a better coach/program builder is the most pressing need.
That's the bottom line. The rest is conjecture and rationalization.
Heading into this season Kyle Shanahan and John Lynch were 10-22. That was their 2 year bottom line. The rest was conjecture and rationalization, though I'd imagine now some of that rationalization looks prescient.
And in FA/trades Gettleman seems to have done much better this year - Zeitler has been solid, Golden has been a good pickup, Tate has played well, and even Remmers/Mayo have been decent.
The problem is in part some of you want to focus on those that think DG has made ALL bad moves. ANd in this offseaosn many call some of us haters or miserable and make up shit like "we'd rather watch he team lose so we could be right."
The fact is some us figured the team would stink and they have. It runs out we were right. Nearly most of us shouldn't be vilified for it. But then when psoters such as yourself double-down with stuff like "Remmers has been decent." Certainly SY and Eric don't agree with you.
You may disagree with posters such as jcn and I for example with out prior discussion on Cooper and the post you made about Eli and now this about Remmers -- imo you're going to have many of us label you as a homer and a DG apologist. I don;t agree with most of what you say since yesterday and today.
Even your comments of "Mayo" -- I find desperate to find something. Right now Mayo is a backup ILB. You want an attaboy for that? Okay attaboy for getting a backup ILB. But our team still sucks, doesn't it? And without some big moves in FA (I count LW a FA move. As well as we need ot fill Golden) among other spots - the team is going to suck again next year.
ANd if you think Remmers is decent -- then maybe you feel he should be re-signed as a starter? If he is decent and we have a good RB and good QB and Dg has decent enough with WR';s then why cant GMEN run the ball better?
Never mind that Gettleman helped hire Shurmur, and reportedly made at least one major personnel mistake (signing Beckham) on Shurmur's recommendation.
Blaming Shurmur for everything accomplished the goal of identifying a culprit while being able to maintain the illusion that the ship is still well run. While Shurmur most certainly is incompetent, he isn't the sole reason this team is so dreadful.
How much foresight did it take to see Shurmur's track record as a HC was abysmal and a danger signal? How much foresight did it take to see that guys like Stewart or Bethea wouldn't have much left? How bad was the evaluation of someone like Halapio and how much foresight did it take to figure a guy who had bounced around between several teams and ended up in a club league would be troublesome as a starting center? How much adverse information on guys like Solder or Zeitler or Ogletree was ignored in favor of a happy narrative that they were all solid players?
Whether you like Barkley/Jones or not and having nothing to do with foresight, these are not signs of a well-run or effective organization.
I'm glad that Jones looks like he can play. I liked him early.
But I care less about developing a quarterback than I do winning games. From what I see, even if Jones turns out to be good it won't matter because the people running the show aren't equipped to build a winning program.
Yeah we got to Jones, but the asset allocation to get to him was atrocious and indicative of major organizational dysfunction.
Honest question, at this point isn't it a lot more significant that Jones looks to be a better option than pretty much all the other options over the last 2 years, than to lament not choosing those other options?
The performance review needs to take into to account the Giants pissed away 45M dollars on two crap seasons with Manning as well.
Being a Super Bowl champion general manager requires making an overwhelming majority of right decisions on personnel and coaching in multiple successive years.
The goal isn't average -- it's a championship.
Getting one move right for every move you get wrong is not how a championship-level team is built.
That's how an 7-9 team is built, which would be aspirational for this trajectory right now.
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Honest question, at this point isn't it a lot more significant that Jones looks to be a better option than pretty much all the other options over the last 2 years, than to lament not choosing those other options?
The performance review needs to take into to account the Giants pissed away 45M dollars on two crap seasons with Manning as well.
Being a Super Bowl champion general manager requires making an overwhelming majority of right decisions on personnel and coaching in multiple successive years.
The goal isn't average -- it's a championship.
Getting one move right for every move you get wrong is not how a championship-level team is built.
That's how an 7-9 team is built, which would be aspirational for this trajectory right now.
We have come full circle. Yes it's great to have Jones, but they wasted too much time/money with Eli. And the cycle continues.
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Gettleman and Shurmur have, unless something changes, put together a program that's going to end up about 10-24 in their first two seasons. They've been pathetic at home (I think they've failed to cover in their last 5 home games) and pathetic in the division.
That's the bottom line. The rest is conjecture and rationalization.
Heading into this season Kyle Shanahan and John Lynch were 10-22. That was their 2 year bottom line. The rest was conjecture and rationalization, though I'd imagine now some of that rationalization looks prescient.
If the Giants start next season 8-0 with this leadership I will gladly admit to being wrong.
If anyone here saw them being as good as they've been so far in 2019 coming off their 2018, I'd certainly shake their hand on some outstanding foresight.
I wouldn't bet on NYG being in their shoes at this point next year, but I think it's also worth acknowledging that the general consensus around SF at this point last year probably wasn't a whole lot more favorable than what it is for NYG right now.
The 49ers were 1-7 @ the midway point last year. Even worse than our current 2-6.
I'm glad that Jones looks like he can play. I liked him early.
But I care less about developing a quarterback than I do winning games. From what I see, even if Jones turns out to be good it won't matter because the people running the show aren't equipped to build a winning program.
Yeah we got to Jones, but the asset allocation to get to him was atrocious and indicative of major organizational dysfunction.
JMO but you're being hyperbolic about the process. I don't think there's anything atrocious in terms of asset allocation about drafting a young QB who looks like he may be the goods at #6.
I know "but we paid Eli". For a guy who hates spending $ on FA, you seem to have an awful lot of regret about that. But this is ground that we've covered before.
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In comment 14658582 Eric on Li said:
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Honest question, at this point isn't it a lot more significant that Jones looks to be a better option than pretty much all the other options over the last 2 years, than to lament not choosing those other options?
The performance review needs to take into to account the Giants pissed away 45M dollars on two crap seasons with Manning as well.
Being a Super Bowl champion general manager requires making an overwhelming majority of right decisions on personnel and coaching in multiple successive years.
The goal isn't average -- it's a championship.
Getting one move right for every move you get wrong is not how a championship-level team is built.
That's how an 7-9 team is built, which would be aspirational for this trajectory right now.
We have come full circle. Yes it's great to have Jones, but they wasted too much time/money with Eli. And the cycle continues.
Would you agree or disagree over say a 3 year period managementt needs to get a majority of decisions correct and a vast majority of the big decisions correct to build a championship-level team?
All the bad moves limit the progress made by the good moves.
My view has never changed. I believe the Giants should give Gettleman and Shurmur three full offseasons and three full seasons to make the playoffs. I don't feel that's an unrealistic or unfair goal for a management and coaching group.
Only one Giants coach since 1980 hasn't gotten the team into the playoffs in 3 years -- Ray Handley.
If the Giants start next season 8-0 with this leadership I will gladly admit to being wrong.
Ok, how about if they change coaches, and simply have a winning record or make the playoffs?
Yeah we got to Jones, but the asset allocation to get to him was atrocious and indicative of major organizational dysfunction.
What the heck are you talking about? What asset allocation to get to him? We had a shit record and finished with the 6th pick.
I suppose you are implying that we should not have taken him with the 6th pick and COULD HAVE gotten him later in the draft? If so, there are enough stories indicating he may not have lasted until our next pick.
I’m not saying Gettleman has done great, but he hasn’t been a complete disaster (unlike Shurmur). Bashing Gettleman for the Solder contract is easy to do with the benefit of hindsight, but in real time most people liked that signing.
1---- What if you were the very many who hated the Solder signing? What do you think those people thought of DG at that moment and continue to think of him regarding that trade?
2---- Are you trying to say that people should evaluate a GM by public consensus vs performance? If not, then why is it wrong for those who liked the Solder to now turn and say the GM blew it? They don't have people working for them / all the information available to them a GM has. They aren't getting paid to make these moves. IMO by you bringing this up in a way that it matters what the public thinks is part of the problem some of us have with posters / fans like you. You're willing to provide excuses for non-performance. The question for us fans and the gM should be is "Has Solder performed." You've twisted that. You're wrong in doing so. You should be evaluating the performance of the GM not what more of the public thought at the time of the trade.
Those of you that thought the SOlder move was a good move - you were wrong. Own up to it. But more importantly own up to DG made a bad move. This caveat you throw in is nothing more than a smokescreen. It doesn't matter "what most thought." "Most were wrong." Performance counts.
3-- Who hired Shurmur? Doesn't the GM take a big hit for that? If Shurmur is a disaster then doesn't it stand to reason that DG made a disastrous hire/signing?
I've never seen more excuses given to a GM than what some have given on here. I recall last week a poster suggesting that current restructure of Nate Solder's contract wasn't DG's fault or his doing. It was from something like the Contracts Dept or whatever. Just incredible.
And you might be right - but given the extremely limited, yet vital variables that will play a role in this outcome, it seems your projection is being made on little other than pessimism and doubt. Since you typically chide people for projecting based on hope, wouldn't this just be the same thing on the other side of the spectrum?
We still have 8 games remaining in THIS season. I have no idea how anyone could reasonably predict the record for next years team at this point. There are so many things that have to happen between now and January of 2021, there's just no way to make an educated guess with so many key points missing from the equation.
Based on what we've seen, you can certainly assume... but assuming usually won't get us far.
It's really just a 'safe' prediction based on the recent past being carried by negativity. Let's at least acknowledge that much.
My view has never changed. I believe the Giants should give Gettleman and Shurmur three full offseasons and three full seasons to make the playoffs. I don't feel that's an unrealistic or unfair goal for a management and coaching group.
I understand your point but I don't think the goal should be to simply get into the playoffs. The team needs to compete in every game even if we happen to back into the playoffs one year. Not interested in a fluke season where we make the playoffs and then back to losing. We just went through that a few years ago.
I mentioned earlier that this organization and its fans have grown to accept losing. Making the playoffs once is just a start, not an end game.
General management is responsible for coaching, scouting, and pro and amateur player personnel.
If Gettleman is off the hook for bad coaching hires and bad pro player acquisition, maybe a smaller role is a better fit for him.
If Gettleman is off the hook for bad coaching hires and bad pro player acquisition, maybe a smaller role is a better fit for him.
I think the GM should be solely responsible for hiring the head coach... period. Maybe the owner can have veto power if there is some serious reason NOT to hire the guy. (Buddy Ryan)
Owners getting too involved is a recipe for disaster
We have come full circle. Yes it's great to have Jones, but they wasted too much time/money with Eli. And the cycle continues.
Would you agree or disagree over say a 3 year period managementt needs to get a majority of decisions correct and a vast majority of the big decisions correct to build a championship-level team?
I wholeheartedly agree (though I'd probably hedge slightly to say winning team vs. championship). I think to this point DG has gotten more decisions right than wrong - especially the big ones. I'm a lot more confident the talent to be a winning team will be on the roster by this time next year than I am that this is the right coaching staff however.
I certainly never framed it that way; but I suppose I'd be conveniently stuffed into that box with everyone else since I don't spend 6 days a week here complaining about him.
He deserves criticism for hiring a bad coach. He deserves criticism when he allocates cap dollars poorly or when he makes a bad trade for the team.
It's also okay to credit him when it looks like he's drafted a good player who can be part of a young nucleus going forward.
"Mixed bag" is fair for Gettleman at this point, in my opinion. He's not been so awful that he should be axed after 1.5 years of a rebuild. He's also not been good enough to give a total pass to.
You can make coaching changes easier than you can atone for blown drafts. So, I'd prefer to have the coach be the bigger problem than the drafts.
And certainly, the coach has been the worse of the two, but it doesn't mean it's got to be all or nothing with both guys. Sometimes the views here become too simplistic and we start ignoring all sorts of variables and decisions and focus on nothing but the bottom line. And maybe the bottom line is all people care about; but to me, it's more important to figure out how you've arrived there and where your avenues are going forward.
General management is responsible for coaching, scouting, and pro and amateur player personnel.
If Gettleman is off the hook for bad coaching hires and bad pro player acquisition, maybe a smaller role is a better fit for him.
There is 0 diminished culpability in the coaching hire. I'd say however many games into his tenure we are right now it's the most egregious mistake by a good margin. If he doesn't get it fixed this offseason either by Shurmur turning things around or making a change it may get him fired.
Where it sounds like we disagree is that I think most of player acquisitions have been good. I think Jones is a good young QB prospect. Barkley is 1 of the best young players in football. Lawrence looks very good. Golden looks like a guy we may want to sign long term. I think the Leonard Williams trade is an interesting gamble. This argument just goes around and around.
The dynamics of resource investment, leadership, and productivity leading to performance is literally what I do all day for a living.
I hope ownership has the same good instinct Gettleman has -- if they've made a bad decision -- get out as fast as possible. I hope that applies to Gettleman and Shurmur.
Three years is an eternity in the NFL. If I'm ownership I give Gettleman one more offseason and Shurmur the next 1.5 years on the field to establish a playoff level team.
I want a bullshit, excuse free, winning philosophy from ownership. I don't want a GM who bats below .500 or a head coach whose best response is he's better than the clown who preceded him.
It's too easy to have all of the information we have no and say NYG should have done x, y, and z in the 2018 draft. It's an exercise in futility, and yet, we do it on a daily basis.
We already know now how a lot of those players are playing, where they were drafted, and have information we did not have at the time. We don't get to just look at the board and cherry pick the best possible yield for NYG and leave everything else unchanged.
The world doesn't work that way, and neither does football.
While an understandable view, there were alternative strategies that were not undertaken so its not cherry picking. And they certainly were apparent by fans here so lets not downplay how a well experienced GM's office was not able to view them either.
DG had an unbiased seat at the table to break this whole thing down and start over...and he instead fell for a different agenda that has mixed some good with other continued bad and only delayed what should have been a full blown restructuring.
I would be shocked if DG doesn't wish he had a "do-over" sitting in his office today. And not the kind of do-over where he missed on silly Jonathan Stewart, I am talking about a completely different road not taken...
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Shurmur is being framed as the next fall guy, with blame deflected from Gettleman.
Never mind that Gettleman helped hire Shurmur, and reportedly made at least one major personnel mistake (signing Beckham) on Shurmur's recommendation.
Blaming Shurmur for everything accomplished the goal of identifying a culprit while being able to maintain the illusion that the ship is still well run. While Shurmur most certainly is incompetent, he isn't the sole reason this team is so dreadful.
Bingo. The wagons are being circled. It was Gettleman/Mara who decided to turn this team into an expansion team. It was their decision to hire Shurmur. It was their decision to sign the free agents we signed almost all of whom were old or ineffective or both. It was their decision to spend 1/3 of our draft picks the last two years on D-linemen and then decide to spend two more on another d-lineman that they still have to sign. Hindsight being 20-20 is a legit argument. Some of these are strategic decisions that have nothing to do with the lack of foresight.
How much foresight did it take to see Shurmur's track record as a HC was abysmal and a danger signal? How much foresight did it take to see that guys like Stewart or Bethea wouldn't have much left? How bad was the evaluation of someone like Halapio and how much foresight did it take to figure a guy who had bounced around between several teams and ended up in a club league would be troublesome as a starting center? How much adverse information on guys like Solder or Zeitler or Ogletree was ignored in favor of a happy narrative that they were all solid players?
Whether you like Barkley/Jones or not and having nothing to do with foresight, these are not signs of a well-run or effective organization.
Some of the fans are falling for it hook, line and sinker.
On another thread I just read that Bettcher has the defensive roster of his choosing, pointing to guys like Bethea and Martin as examples. So along with Gettleman not being responsible for the Eli decision (after all, that was Mara), and not responsible for hiring the coaches (ditto), the coaches are also picking the players.
I want a bullshit, excuse free, winning philosophy from ownership. I don't want a GM who bats below .500 or a head coach whose best response is he's better than the clown who preceded him.
I agree with you and the scary part is we have an owner who was willing to allow Reese (whose record was well below 500 in the draft) continue until the fan base was about ready to burn their tickets again.
Remember when Mara fired Coughlin but kept Reese? At that time, I was thinking Reese got a pass because Mara's fingerprints were also on the draft picks.
We should be targeting more short term prove it guys in FA like Golden was in 2019.
More Goldens and no Solders.
As fans, there's no accountability for a wrong opinion. I've seen plenty of posters who were all aboard the "Gettleman fucked up by punting on QB" train last year, who are now pivoting and changing their stance to "well, we still could have traded down or taken Nelson", etc etc...
Fans get to just revise and get a 'do over' on their opinions. I've changed my mind on things too. It happens when you become privy to information or see things play out a certain way.
Some of the thinking at the time was logical; this isn't the case for everyone. There were no doubt fans who had a realistic alternative course of action that they wanted to see.
But, again, even in those alternate realities... we don't know how things could have played out here. Once you change one thing, you have to change everything else... which is why I hate spending so much time harping on the hindsight game.
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I want a bullshit, excuse free, winning philosophy from ownership. I don't want a GM who bats below .500 or a head coach whose best response is he's better than the clown who preceded him.
I agree with you and the scary part is we have an owner who was willing to allow Reese (whose record was well below 500 in the draft) continue until the fan base was about ready to burn their tickets again.
Remember when Mara fired Coughlin but kept Reese? At that time, I was thinking Reese got a pass because Mara's fingerprints were also on the draft picks.
What makes you think otherwise? They brought in a former Giants GM, hired a former FO exec, and changed swapped out one other guy. And the name that gets floated when they talk about succession is another insider.
The operation is basically the same.
We should be targeting more short term prove it guys in FA like Golden was in 2019.
More Goldens and no Solders.
I think Golden could go either way. There are only so many double digit sack guys out there. Gettleman's biggest question this offseason is what he does with the coaching staff because he has to get that right because everything good or bad will flow from that - and if he gets it wrong I don't think he will get another offseason after this one.
Some of the thinking at the time was logical; this isn't the case for everyone. There were no doubt fans who had a realistic alternative course of action that they wanted to see.
I think a perfect example of this is the Solder signing. Here are the facts...
1. We came off of a season where OL was likely the worst (or close) in the league.
2. Our left tackle was absolutely the worst in the league.
3. There were not many left tackles available via free agency
4. We had to do something
5. Solder did not look this bad on film until we got him.
Those were facts, and here is an opinion...
If we did not sign a replacement for Flowers, we would be asking WTF is Gettleman doing? Plus, of Solder ended up on a team where the environment would allow him to play better than he has shown us thus far, DG would be criticized.
This franchise has been bad enough as a team (and at so many positions) that it is almost sad when the decisions made don't make things better, putting aside even much better or a lot better. Knowing things were at "basement level"...couldn't we have at least reached ground floor yet?
And i think you (and some others on BBI) are astute enough to filter out the posters that are just pivoting at every moment versus the ones you care to read and debate with.
If anyone here saw them being as good as they've been so far in 2019 coming off their 2018, I'd certainly shake their hand on some outstanding foresight.
I wouldn't bet on NYG being in their shoes at this point next year, but I think it's also worth acknowledging that the general consensus around SF at this point last year probably wasn't a whole lot more favorable than what it is for NYG right now.
The 49ers were 1-7 @ the midway point last year. Even worse than our current 2-6.
Gee, shrewd signings, good trades, good drafting and building on the roster. See any of that going on here?