talent level is incredibly poor. I don’t think we have two players who would start on Dallas.
It’s gonna take a while to catch up. I’m glad that DG recognizes that it starts up front; at least he knows this is a physical game, unlike Reese who loved skill players.
It’s been a very long time since I felt that we were the more talented team when going against top competition. I said in the game thread that Lombardi couldn’t win with our talent, and I believe that.
He just gave up a 3 and a 4 for the rights to pay big money to Leonard Williams. You saw what he added in terms of establishing the point of attack tonight.
To recap - that's a 3rd, a 4th, a likely $12-15M a year salary, and a 17th overall - to get run on up the middle like they were cheap rag dolls.
The talent level on this roster is crap - but this is Gettleman's roster. It might not be finished - but if you haven't seen enough yet to suggest that he shouldn't be the one to finish it, I don't know what more proof you could actually need.
Gettleman signed the best and really only legitimate LT on the market when he got here. His first draft he spent a premium pick on a LG who is excellent.
He traded for one of the best OG's in the NFL in Zeitler. And he signed Remmers, when there again wasn't much out there. And he tried to get Norwell.
Great OT's do not grow on trees. Unfortunately, Solder and Remmers are getting worked over too often. But I'm not sure who you guys would've gone after in their place. There isn't a lot out there.
The emphasis on the lines are there, but things haven't worked out perfectly. I have no doubt he will again put an emphasis on improving the OL this offseason.
Gettleman signed the best and really only legitimate LT on the market when he got here. His first draft he spent a premium pick on a LG who is excellent.
He traded for one of the best OG's in the NFL in Zeitler. And he signed Remmers, when there again wasn't much out there. And he tried to get Norwell.
Great OT's do not grow on trees. Unfortunately, Solder and Remmers are getting worked over too often. But I'm not sure who you guys would've gone after in their place. There isn't a lot out there.
The emphasis on the lines are there, but things haven't worked out perfectly. I have no doubt he will again put an emphasis on improving the OL this offseason.
agreed. people act like DG missed the boat on quality OL. thye OL play is down around the league....we spent resources there. it hasnt worked out. its easy to just blame DG, but fact is, there isnt much of an alternative route we could have taken that changes things.
Zeitler may have been pretty good in Cleveland, but he isn't one of the best guards in football.
Just look at what his emphasis on improving the OL has done thus far! Can't wait to see what dreck he brings in next year.
agreed. people act like DG missed the boat on quality OL. thye OL play is down around the league....we spent resources there. it hasnt worked out. its easy to just blame DG, but fact is, there isnt much of an alternative route we could have taken that changes things.
Why are we assuming that just because you or I can't list alternative options that there were none?
NFL front office people get paid money to go find talent. Looking at ESPN's free agent list isn't being a GM. It's not expected that fans would identify a different course of action. GMs get paid money to do that.
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agreed. people act like DG missed the boat on quality OL. thye OL play is down around the league....we spent resources there. it hasnt worked out. its easy to just blame DG, but fact is, there isnt much of an alternative route we could have taken that changes things.
Why are we assuming that just because you or I can't list alternative options that there were none?
NFL front office people get paid money to go find talent. Looking at ESPN's free agent list isn't being a GM. It's not expected that fans would identify a different course of action. GMs get paid money to do that.
well...can you lay a path? i dont see many options. he knew we needed a stabilizing force and solder was BY FAR best avail. solder was a solid option. he regressed. not really on DG. the great BB offered solder a deal too
Even non-professional football observers realized paying him that much money was a mistake.
Even non-professional football observers realized paying him that much money was a mistake.
the little more we offered than pats isnt the reason we suck. the fact he sucks is the reason we suck. in other words, people bitched about thye money(i wasnt happy either) but thats what it takes to sign a soliud LT. he regressed. shit happens but at the time, it was a necessary signing. people forget how bad flowers was. solder was by far the best OL we had, then he got here and just played like shit. again...pats offered him a deal. DG wasnt the only one that would have been wrong about solder
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In comment 14663870 BleedBlue said:
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agreed. people act like DG missed the boat on quality OL. thye OL play is down around the league....we spent resources there. it hasnt worked out. its easy to just blame DG, but fact is, there isnt much of an alternative route we could have taken that changes things.
Why are we assuming that just because you or I can't list alternative options that there were none?
NFL front office people get paid money to go find talent. Looking at ESPN's free agent list isn't being a GM. It's not expected that fans would identify a different course of action. GMs get paid money to do that.
well...can you lay a path? i dont see many options. he knew we needed a stabilizing force and solder was BY FAR best avail. solder was a solid option. he regressed. not really on DG. the great BB offered solder a deal too
No, I can't. I'm not a GM. That doesn't mean one absolutely didn't exist. It's easy to go sign the biggest name like the Redskins do. Anyone one of us could do that too. It's a lot harder to identify talent, like this team USED to do the last time they build an offensive line with underrated football players, and coached them into a good unit.
And the different is, as you well know, if Solder was in New England right now, he wouldn't be playing like this because everything the patriots do works out for them.
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In comment 14663898 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 14663870 BleedBlue said:
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agreed. people act like DG missed the boat on quality OL. thye OL play is down around the league....we spent resources there. it hasnt worked out. its easy to just blame DG, but fact is, there isnt much of an alternative route we could have taken that changes things.
Why are we assuming that just because you or I can't list alternative options that there were none?
NFL front office people get paid money to go find talent. Looking at ESPN's free agent list isn't being a GM. It's not expected that fans would identify a different course of action. GMs get paid money to do that.
well...can you lay a path? i dont see many options. he knew we needed a stabilizing force and solder was BY FAR best avail. solder was a solid option. he regressed. not really on DG. the great BB offered solder a deal too
No, I can't. I'm not a GM. That doesn't mean one absolutely didn't exist. It's easy to go sign the biggest name like the Redskins do. Anyone one of us could do that too. It's a lot harder to identify talent, like this team USED to do the last time they build an offensive line with underrated football players, and coached them into a good unit.
And the different is, as you well know, if Solder was in New England right now, he wouldn't be playing like this because everything the patriots do works out for them.
fair but the identifying talent part. the pats thought he had plenty of it. they offered a deal too...i agree tho things always seem to work for them
Marinelli saves Garrets job every year
I believe that. Do you want to say 4? Really, how many? Any OL? No. Perhaps Lawrence on the DL. It no one else. No LBs. No DBs unless you think JJ beats out one of their young and good CBs. Engram? He’d see time. Are any of our WRs close to Cooper? Nope. Yeah, Shep and Tate would get some touches but would never be considered difference makers.
But are the above guys the players you’d hang your hat on? Would you trade Engram tomorrow for Smith or Vander Esch? I would. Jenkins for one of their young CBs, both highly thought of? I would.
Let’s face facts—our roster sucks.
Pardon me, but I don't think you are focusing play after play on Hernandez. He's doing very well overall. No OL wins every battle. And he's suffered from some really poor ujust holding calls. Happens quite a bit to losing teams it seems. Look at the ticket tack calls on Baker when Dallas' CBs mugged our guys by comparison and didn't get called for a damn thing.
Everything you just wrote is completely wrong. I mean literally everything. That's amazing.
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I wasn't on the thread, but the signing wasn't well received, in particular when the money was announced.
Even non-professional football observers realized paying him that much money was a mistake.
the little more we offered than pats isnt the reason we suck. the fact he sucks is the reason we suck. in other words, people bitched about thye money(i wasnt happy either) but thats what it takes to sign a soliud LT. he regressed. shit happens but at the time, it was a necessary signing. people forget how bad flowers was. solder was by far the best OL we had, then he got here and just played like shit. again...pats offered him a deal. DG wasnt the only one that would have been wrong about solder
Some people bitched about the money - most bitched that he just wasn't very good. That if he was, NE wouldn't let him go given that they were in better cap shape than the Giants were in and that Brady was inching ever closer to retirement.
They were right, and Gettleman was wrong.
Zeitler may have been pretty good in Cleveland, but he isn't one of the best guards in football.
This is from an article coming into this season. Yes, Zeitler is one of the best guards in football. He had a bad play tonight. Russell Wilson has thrown 1 INT this season. Doesn't mean he's not great.
https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/21/pff-new-york-giants-will-hernandez-kevin-zeitler-nfl-best-guard-tandems/
Also, the Pro Bowl is a joke and everyone knows it, and he played for Cleveland. Writers pick All-Pros and they are going with Zack Marting every year and David DeCastro in recent years. Cowboys and Steelers. Not that Martin isn't deserving. But the writers aren't great evaluators of offensive line play.
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and he's been average at best all season, but let's pretend he's "excellent" to feel a bit better about 2-7.
Everything you just wrote is completely wrong. I mean literally everything. That's amazing.
Well, that's an outstanding comeback. I mean, the way you made your point by maybe saying something football related? No wait, you didn't.
You seem to like PFF there - they rate him a 62.5. Just FYI, that's not out of 70.
He's an adequate player - around here, that qualifies for "excellent".
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/will-hernandez/46180 - ( New Window )
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agreed. people act like DG missed the boat on quality OL. thye OL play is down around the league....we spent resources there. it hasnt worked out. its easy to just blame DG, but fact is, there isnt much of an alternative route we could have taken that changes things.
Why are we assuming that just because you or I can't list alternative options that there were none?
NFL front office people get paid money to go find talent. Looking at ESPN's free agent list isn't being a GM. It's not expected that fans would identify a different course of action. GMs get paid money to do that.
You can go to Spotrac and see the free agents after the 2017 season. It was a black hole at LT except for Solder. Just stating facts. You can say he should've drafted a LT in the 4th round when we took Lauletta. I don't know, if any of those mid-round guys have worked out, but I'm not going to go crazy that the guy he signed hasn't played up to his own standard.
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In comment 14663866 jcn56 said:
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and he's been average at best all season, but let's pretend he's "excellent" to feel a bit better about 2-7.
Everything you just wrote is completely wrong. I mean literally everything. That's amazing.
Well, that's an outstanding comeback. I mean, the way you made your point by maybe saying something football related? No wait, you didn't.
You seem to like PFF there - they rate him a 62.5. Just FYI, that's not out of 70.
He's an adequate player - around here, that qualifies for "excellent". https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/will-hernandez/46180 - ( New Window )
I thought BBI didn't like PFF? He was named to the All-Rookie Team last year. He's a lot better than adequate. I'm sure you also know he's allowed zero sacks this year, right? 3 penalties?
He's better than adequate.
1. We don't have the worst OL in football
2. Almost all the negative plays caused by the OL this season have been through Remmers and Solder. Zeitler has allowed 2 sacks and has had 1 penalty this year. So between he and Hernandez, 4 penalties and 2 sacks. I don't think they're the problem, not even a little bit.
I quoted a USA Today article. That article may have cited PFF, but the grade wasn't the entirety of the statement. Mainly what I was quoting is that he had only allowed 3 sacks last year. He was pretty universally regarded as one of, if not THE best pass pro OG in the NFL when he came here, and he has done well. I get most people see the OL as a monolith, and when they are getting beat and rushers are routinely getting through, it's easy to say they all suck. But the sieve is first at RT, and then LT to a slightly lesser extent. That is where the OL is getting beat, on the edges.
I'm convinced - he's awesome.
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He's certainly not the 'excellent' player you're making him out to be - at least as graded by the independent source that you quoted up above.
I quoted a USA Today article. That article may have cited PFF, but the grade wasn't the entirety of the statement. Mainly what I was quoting is that he had only allowed 3 sacks last year. He was pretty universally regarded as one of, if not THE best pass pro OG in the NFL when he came here, and he has done well. I get most people see the OL as a monolith, and when they are getting beat and rushers are routinely getting through, it's easy to say they all suck. But the sieve is first at RT, and then LT to a slightly lesser extent. That is where the OL is getting beat, on the edges.
In pass pro maybe - but the run game is suffering just as much because of poor guard and C play.
The line is pretty damn bad from left to right. Worst in the NFL? Maybe not. Are there 5 worse than the Giants? Not from whatever football I've seen this year, but I haven't scouted every team in depth to know for sure. I sure as hell don't recall seeing many who are worse - maybe the Jets and the Redskins from what I've seen, but that's about it.
He is pretty hard on the OL
Nothing DG could do... Really?
Identify Trent Brown and trade for him
trade out of the #2 pick in 2018 and draft at least 2 more OL in what was perhaps the deepest OL draft in over a decade. There are several OL that were picked in the 3rd round who are starting.
Draft McGary instead of Baker.
Don't trade Jones.
Sign Paradis
Resign Jamon Brown and trade Vernon for a better RT or C.
We can do this all night as far as all the other choices DG really did have.
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agreed. people act like DG missed the boat on quality OL. thye OL play is down around the league....we spent resources there. it hasnt worked out. its easy to just blame DG, but fact is, there isnt much of an alternative route we could have taken that changes things.
Why are we assuming that just because you or I can't list alternative options that there were none?
NFL front office people get paid money to go find talent. Looking at ESPN's free agent list isn't being a GM. It's not expected that fans would identify a different course of action. GMs get paid money to do that.
how about trying to find an OL coach that can coach guys up? (like in NE)
Shurmur needs to go. He doesn't deserve another year.
Solder - no one suspected he would play this poorly. Remmmers - for the most part, think you have to draft your tackles. Giants use 2 1st ournd pciks on them in recent years and missed badly. Bad drafting haunts you
Gettleman signed the best and really only legitimate LT on the market when he got here. His first draft he spent a premium pick on a LG who is excellent.
He traded for one of the best OG's in the NFL in Zeitler. And he signed Remmers, when there again wasn't much out there. And he tried to get Norwell.
Great OT's do not grow on trees. Unfortunately, Solder and Remmers are getting worked over too often. But I'm not sure who you guys would've gone after in their place. There isn't a lot out there.
The emphasis on the lines are there, but things haven't worked out perfectly. I have no doubt he will again put an emphasis on improving the OL this offseason.
One option would’ve been signing Matt Paradis in FA and drafting Cody Ford at RT in the 2nd instead of trading up for Baker.
Gettleman went into this season with a patch job OL.
We need a stickey of all the scenarios in the draft, UFA, and trades available to the Giants that Gettleman chose not to take.
Poor Dave he spent a 2nd round pick, a top 10 paid LT, a top 10 paid guard, acquired the right tackle and chose to keep the center.
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In comment 14663870 BleedBlue said:
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agreed. people act like DG missed the boat on quality OL. thye OL play is down around the league....we spent resources there. it hasnt worked out. its easy to just blame DG, but fact is, there isnt much of an alternative route we could have taken that changes things.
Why are we assuming that just because you or I can't list alternative options that there were none?
NFL front office people get paid money to go find talent. Looking at ESPN's free agent list isn't being a GM. It's not expected that fans would identify a different course of action. GMs get paid money to do that.
well...can you lay a path? i dont see many options. he knew we needed a stabilizing force and solder was BY FAR best avail. solder was a solid option. he regressed. not really on DG. the great BB offered solder a deal too
Just because BBI doesn't know what the alternative path was doesn't mean there wasn't one. Why can't any Gettleman supporters answer this simple question: if we acknowledge that Norwell was DG's top choice and we also acknowledge that he could not have afforded both Norwell and Solder, it's obvious that DG must have had another option in mind for OLT, right?
So it's one of three things, IMO:
1) You're afraid the answer might have been that he'd have stuck with Flowers if he had signed Norwell
2) You're afraid that whoever his backup play for OLT was would have been the equivalent of what Omameh was at OG
3) You're afraid that he didn't have a backup plan at all
If there's some other answer than that, I'd love to hear it. But if you do think he had another plan for OLT that would not have been an abject failure, and you somehow still trust Gettleman's eye for OL talent, then you logically have to stop defending the Solder contract as though it was the only option that offseason, because it wasn't even Gettleman's Plan A.
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You don't get to baldy assert that Zeitler is one of the best guards in football, sorry. No Pro Bowls, no All-Pro, and he's played absolutely dreadfully at times. Did you happen to see him get easily beaten one on one with some Cowboys backup lineman for a sack on that last drive? On a four man rush?
Zeitler may have been pretty good in Cleveland, but he isn't one of the best guards in football.
This is from an article coming into this season. Yes, Zeitler is one of the best guards in football. He had a bad play tonight. Russell Wilson has thrown 1 INT this season. Doesn't mean he's not great.
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Zeitler allowed just three sacks, one hit and seven hurries from 642 pass-blocking snaps in 2018, and his 91.7 pass-blocking grade not only led the league’s guards last season, but it was also tied for the ninth-best single-season grade ever recorded by an offensive guard.
https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/21/pff-new-york-giants-will-hernandez-kevin-zeitler-nfl-best-guard-tandems/
Also, the Pro Bowl is a joke and everyone knows it, and he played for Cleveland. Writers pick All-Pros and they are going with Zack Marting every year and David DeCastro in recent years. Cowboys and Steelers. Not that Martin isn't deserving. But the writers aren't great evaluators of offensive line play.
If the Pro Bowl is a joke, what about people who anoint themselves as All-Stars?
Keep citing PFF though (and if you're doing it indirectly/unwittingly... woof) - that'll help.
We need a stickey of all the scenarios in the draft, UFA, and trades available to the Giants that Gettleman chose not to take.
Poor Dave he spent a 2nd round pick, a top 10 paid LT, a top 10 paid guard, acquired the right tackle and chose to keep the center.
I love how people defend Gettleman with the "at least he tried!" nonsense, without a hint of irony or recognition for the amount of resources that Reese unsuccessfully tried to throw at the OL too.
When you keep going back to the same GM lineage you shouldn't be surprised when some of the same weaknesses continue. Even Accorsi himself was very fortunate that McNally was able to develop players on the OL, because some of his early OL groups here were pretty abysmal.
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In comment 14663886 Greg from LI said:
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You don't get to baldy assert that Zeitler is one of the best guards in football, sorry. No Pro Bowls, no All-Pro, and he's played absolutely dreadfully at times. Did you happen to see him get easily beaten one on one with some Cowboys backup lineman for a sack on that last drive? On a four man rush?
Zeitler may have been pretty good in Cleveland, but he isn't one of the best guards in football.
This is from an article coming into this season. Yes, Zeitler is one of the best guards in football. He had a bad play tonight. Russell Wilson has thrown 1 INT this season. Doesn't mean he's not great.
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Zeitler allowed just three sacks, one hit and seven hurries from 642 pass-blocking snaps in 2018, and his 91.7 pass-blocking grade not only led the league’s guards last season, but it was also tied for the ninth-best single-season grade ever recorded by an offensive guard.
https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/21/pff-new-york-giants-will-hernandez-kevin-zeitler-nfl-best-guard-tandems/
Also, the Pro Bowl is a joke and everyone knows it, and he played for Cleveland. Writers pick All-Pros and they are going with Zack Marting every year and David DeCastro in recent years. Cowboys and Steelers. Not that Martin isn't deserving. But the writers aren't great evaluators of offensive line play.
If the Pro Bowl is a joke, what about people who anoint themselves as All-Stars?
Keep citing PFF though (and if you're doing it indirectly/unwittingly... woof) - that'll help.
Look, I get it the dumb nature of the handle. To me, it's tongue in cheek. I got that nickname probably 20 years ago when a buddy gave it to me because of how I played sports (I hustled).
Back when internet fantasy football was just starting to be a thing, that same buddy created a team for me to join the league. The handle he created for my account? Allstarjim. It stuck.
Anyway, I'm middle of the road on PFF. I don't think they're gospel at all but some of the tracking data they do is important. The overall grade is the least scientific. They DO give Hernandez extremely high marks in pass pro, but a less than stellar mark in run blocking, which seems that this would be backwards, as Hernandez's strength coming out was run blocking. I wouldn't be surprised if his grade in that area is being adversely affected by an outlier game.
At any case, he's very, very good. The strength of our OL is definitely in the interior.
But I just think citing PFF is a tough one, especially for something like OL, and even moreso in the era of the RPO (where OL play is not as obvious to an outsider who may have to assign a run-block grade to an individual player without knowing the whole line's assignments and/or if they were forced into a pass protection on what ends up as a running play because that's the nature of the RPO).
I also think it's tough to consider the interior of our line a strength when our weakest link on the OL is the pivot. I think Halapio makes the rest of the line worse, both because the rush up the middle makes it impossible for DJ to step up from outside rush against the tackles, and because I still don't trust JH on his line calls - there's a reason why the line improved dramatically with Pulley in last year, and I don't think it's because Pulley is physically superior to Halapio.
I'm just trusting my own eyes, and giving my opinion. I know that's not worth much to anyone but me, just my observation he's not getting us killed, it's Remmers and Solder, and Remmers is the weakest link by a healthy margin. The good news is he's only on a one-year deal.
I'm just trusting my own eyes, and giving my opinion. I know that's not worth much to anyone but me, just my observation he's not getting us killed, it's Remmers and Solder, and Remmers is the weakest link by a healthy margin. The good news is he's only on a one-year deal.
Ok, but you're wrong.
Halapio sucks. I don't need PFF to tell me that. I can see it with my eyes. He's the weak link of the line, and the line is better when he's not on it. It would be better if they trotted out 4 OL instead of 5 including him, that's how bad he is. And every time Gettleman repeats that he was the highest graded OL, it reminds me that Gettleman has no idea how to grade OL.
I'm just trusting my own eyes, and giving my opinion. I know that's not worth much to anyone but me, just my observation he's not getting us killed, it's Remmers and Solder, and Remmers is the weakest link by a healthy margin. The good news is he's only on a one-year deal.