I have a rather simple question. How do we separate awful coaching from suspected awful talent? More clearly, how do we know that talent is the problem vs a bad coaching staff that is unable to get the most out of players, and develop players?
In my opinion it's easier to see that Shurmur and the coaching staff aren't a quality staff versus the players being talentless. It often takes time for young players to show you what they are going to be, and in my opinion depending on the coaching staff's ability to develop the young talent.
Now there is a chance of both being the case, but to me it's too early to dismiss most of the young players as misses, while it's not too early in my opinion to say Shurmur and his staff are a miss.
So to recap, before we decide that the best idea is to get rid of everyone, how do we decider bad talent vs a coaching staff that may be bad at developing talent and putting players in a situation to succeed?
One last comment. I've been accused of being a defender of the Faith regarding Gettleman, which basically says I don't use reason or logic when discussing this GM's decisions. I don't think that's true at all, my view is that this coaching staff may be horrendous enough to stunt talented player growth.
Playing hurt or slow due to confusion.
Poor coaching on game day....is easier to see but the reason might be due to lack of talent.
So a little chicken or egg.
Now I suppose that can be blamed on coaching to some extent, but I m not certain how much.
I m not a Shurmur advocate, but I made the point last night that as long as the Giants continue to get beat in the trenches on both sides of the ball, we ll be having the same conversation about coaching regardless of whom it is
I m not ready to give up on Shumur because I don’t have the expertise to make a determination on coaching but mostly I don’t think he s going anywhere after this season, so I ll keep pulling for him.
But I will say if he got dismissed I d be on board with that too.
This franchise is back where it was when we played in the Yale Bowl - We need a George Young - and maybe even a Ray Perkins to right the ship - but even Bill Walsh would not win with this team.
It’s unbelievable how pathetic the Giants and to a larger extent the Knicks have been. I don’t know if it’s because they are owned by people who’ve never accomplished anything in their lives, just the good fortune of being born to the right family. This is sports after all, not life and death, have some balls to make changes when things continue to look bleak.
Is Gettleman responsible for these coaches?
Not asking if Mara didn't have input, or if he wasn't ultimately the one who signed off. But do you believe these coaches were forced upon Gettleman or that he had a say in hiring them?
That's a highly questionable statement
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One last comment. I've been accused of being a defender of the Faith regarding Gettleman, which basically says I don't use reason or logic when discussing this GM's decisions. I don't think that's true at all, my view is that this coaching staff may be horrendous enough to stunt talented player growth.
Is Gettleman responsible for these coaches?
Not asking if Mara didn't have input, or if he wasn't ultimately the one who signed off. But do you believe these coaches were forced upon Gettleman or that he had a say in hiring them?
I put the hiring on the coaches on Gettleman. I think typically the GM does the hiring, and if Gettleman struggles to hire good coaches that obviously isn't good, but you can get help in that area with advisors. I think it's a very real possibility that awful coaching is having a major effect on the players, especially the younger players.
You start with these terrible tackles and center. (-talent)
-So what does a good coach do? Two options.
1) Leave an extra blocker or two.
2) Quick throws.
However In order for that to work you need players to get open downfield (-talent) and the extra blockers to be effective (-talent). And please don't say run the ball more - obviously didn't work last night.
On defense:
1) If you can't see with your own eyes how bad Ogletree and Bethea are i don't know what to tell you.Those are your defensive captatins right there (talent-)
The coaches are bad or worse.
The rookie players can't be properly evaluated because the coaching is supposedly so bad that it's impacting their development to the point where you can't tell if their issues are scheme or talent.
The common denominator in all of this? Gettleman. Do you really thinking giving him another coaching staff and another couple of years is a good idea?
The coaches are bad or worse.
The rookie players can't be properly evaluated because the coaching is supposedly so bad that it's impacting their development to the point where you can't tell if their issues are scheme or talent.
The common denominator in all of this? Gettleman. Do you really thinking giving him another coaching staff and another couple of years is a good idea?
I think it's too early to pull the plug on Gettleman. I think typically you give a GM more time. To me this coaching staff shows to be terrible, so my question is, how much does that impact developing talent, how bad can that make talent look? Fair question.
I am fine giving Gettleman another coaching staff.
The results have remained largely the same, and yet we're here on BBI debating whether or not they should get more time.
And the decisions that he could easily control - FA acquisitions and coaching hires - have been badly mismanaged. Not a miss here or there, but catastrophic failure.
Giving him more time just extends the number of years we need to endure 'Lets Go Cowboys' chants at MetLife.
The results have remained largely the same, and yet we're here on BBI debating whether or not they should get more time.
And the decisions that he could easily control - FA acquisitions and coaching hires - have been badly mismanaged. Not a miss here or there, but catastrophic failure.
Giving him more time just extends the number of years we need to endure 'Lets Go Cowboys' chants at MetLife.
We disagree on the job Gettleman is doing.
If DG is thinking more time is needed to accumulate talent, we're fucked, because that would mean PS returns.
There are other scenarios, though. PS/coaches get input on player acquisition, too. As do the Maras (John/Chris). It's not all on DG for any lack of talent. DG may be feeling fed up with the clusterfuck of meddlesome owners and lackluster coaches input/coaching.
We disagree on the job Gettleman is doing.
We certainly do. I base my opinion on what the team has output to date, though. You seem to be basing yours on the theory that the coaches are so bad that the output should be discarded.
The bad coaches having been hired by the guy you're supporting, of course.
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We disagree on the job Gettleman is doing.
We certainly do. I base my opinion on what the team has output to date, though. You seem to be basing yours on the theory that the coaches are so bad that the output should be discarded.
The bad coaches having been hired by the guy you're supporting, of course.
Do you find my view unreasonable?
I'm beginning to lean towards both.
The roster that DG inherited was awful. It takes time to accumulate and develop talent. The idea that the NFL is a league where teams are one year away is a myth.
On the other hand, the coaching staff has done little to make me believe that they are the ones to develop the talent. My ONLY hesitation to firing the entire coaching staff is the way Jones has performed.
I've said since the day DJ took over for Eli that this regime would be judged by Jones' performance and he's done remarkably well.
The AZ Cardinals have way more talent on the defensive side of the ball. Chandler Jones, Terrell Suggs and Patrick Peterson are all significantly better than whoever you want to say is the best NYG defender.