I don't know if this is or isn't true - but what I do know, is that John Mara may be the biggest obstacle the Giants have right now. Which, is why simply firing Shurmur and Gettleman may not be the answer here.
Don't get me wrong; Pat Shurmur has been terrible. He deserves to be fired. Gettleman has been a mixed bag. You can point to some good stuff, you can point to some 'eh' - and you can definitely point to some bad.
If John Mara is the one who is hiring the coaches, we're in even deeper shit than I thought because guess what... all that means is that he's picking the next guy, too. Why should we have any confidence Shurmur's successor will be better when he's really not much better than McAdoo (if at all) ?
Gettleman shouldn't be absolved entirely here, but the fact that John and Chris Mara are still at the top of this food chain gives me just about zero confidence in a fix coming any time soon.
I don't think either guy really has any idea what they're doing or looking for.
If I owned an NFL team, I would pick the GM. Someone I put my faith in. Allow the GM to make coaching decisions unless I was a "football guy" for many years. Maybe Mara sees himself as a football guy. If so, his company won't have much success.
said it after the fact - which would make total sense. But all I could find after a quick google search was this article.
I will say - he comments reek of a guy that was told to hire someone he didn't want.
So maybe you're right. Link - ( New Window )
I just remembered Accorsi saying when they introduced Coughlin that he was the guy they wanted for 11 years or something like that.
I think the other guys were interviewed were Crennel, Weis and Lovie. Not sure if EA wanted one of them more than Coughlin, my memory from 15 years ago is a bit foggy.
said it after the fact - which would make total sense. But all I could find after a quick google search was this article.
I will say - he comments reek of a guy that was told to hire someone he didn't want.
So maybe you're right. Link - ( New Window )
I just remembered Accorsi saying when they introduced Coughlin that he was the guy they wanted for 11 years or something like that.
I think the other guys were interviewed were Crennel, Weis and Lovie. Not sure if EA wanted one of them more than Coughlin, my memory from 15 years ago is a bit foggy.
said it after the fact - which would make total sense. But all I could find after a quick google search was this article.
I will say - he comments reek of a guy that was told to hire someone he didn't want.
So maybe you're right. Link - ( New Window )
I just remembered Accorsi saying when they introduced Coughlin that he was the guy they wanted for 11 years or something like that.
I think the other guys were interviewed were Crennel, Weis and Lovie. Not sure if EA wanted one of them more than Coughlin, my memory from 15 years ago is a bit foggy.
Accorsi wanted Saban, Mara wanted Coughlin..
I'm pretty sure Saban passed on the Giants - if memory serves correctly - not the other way around.
out of curiosity who is the next Mara in line to take over John's role Â
here are completely off base. Gettleman was 100% involved in the decision to hire Shurmur. Mara brought on Ernie Accorsi to assist in the GM hire BEFORE they interviewed any coaches. That wasn't an accident or coincidence. Then Gettleman was in all the coach interviews as well and was intimately involved in the decision making process. Mara isn't hiring a GM to as the be all end all for football decisions. But Gettleman was 100% involved in the decision to hire Shurmur and he will be involved in the decision to fire Shurmur if and when it happens.
why are people still talking about him?
In case you have forgotten, they didn't make the playoffs
his last four years here, just saying.
Exactly. This really pisses me off to. The guy was 22-34 from week 9 of 2012 until he was let go in 2015. He should of been fired after 2014 and got another year. He missed the playoffs 4 years in a row and had 3 straight losing season and people say he should of never been let go... I am starting to see in with Eli to.. people are saying how they should put him back in smh
I don't know if this is or isn't true - but what I do know, is that John Mara may be the biggest obstacle the Giants have right now. Which, is why simply firing Shurmur and Gettleman may not be the answer here.
Don't get me wrong; Pat Shurmur has been terrible. He deserves to be fired. Gettleman has been a mixed bag. You can point to some good stuff, you can point to some 'eh' - and you can definitely point to some bad.
If John Mara is the one who is hiring the coaches, we're in even deeper shit than I thought because guess what... all that means is that he's picking the next guy, too. Why should we have any confidence Shurmur's successor will be better when he's really not much better than McAdoo (if at all) ?
Gettleman shouldn't be absolved entirely here, but the fact that John and Chris Mara are still at the top of this food chain gives me just about zero confidence in a fix coming any time soon.
I don't think either guy really has any idea what they're doing or looking for.
It is really difficult to see who is making the decisions. This seems to have gotten worse post 2011 Super Bowl team imo.
John Mara is publicly on record that his father hired Coughlin. Accorsi wanted no part of Coughlin and pretty much quit when the Giant wouldn't fire him. Read his book.
The OP is correct the Mara's usually hire the coaches. Wellington hired all the post Allie Sherman coaches until George Young hired Perkins and Parcells. But the Mara's wouldn't let him him fire Parcells after 1983. Young hired the coach after Parcells too and Fassel. Dan Reeves was hired by Wellington after several people Young wanted turned down the job.
Unless the Tisch family has the will and/or the power to do something about it the Mara's will continue to run the entire football program and boy do they suck at it.
I agree. I think he wanted Welly wanted him for a long time and he was from the Parcells tree. Ernie I think would have preferred Saban but was over-ruled.
in 2005. The Giants have won two Super Bowls under his co-ownership.
That's as many as Wellington won in 38 years.
Wellington also was owner during some really tough times in Giants history.
History shows that when it comes to sports, for most franchises, it's all peaks and valleys - and we in a valley and have been for a while now.
great points. I still laugh when people mention Wellington like he is some kind of saint. He ran the team into the ground upon his brother Jacks death, fought with his nephew on how to run the team and after 15 years of futility he had to have the league step(the Knicks should be so lucky) in to have any success. His success came after he realized that there are smarter football people than him and THEY should run the team(kinda like Steinbrenner was FORCED to learn that same thing in the early 90's). Tim, his son, doesn't seem to be interfering and seems to have the right intentions, he just doesn't have good luck, good instincts and or good knowledge. Not sure how many owners I'd rather have. Just need to get some decisions right.
even though it worked out great, was still emblamatic of how the Giants operate - only hire guys they know.
Yup. They wanted coughlin after the 92 season and he choose Boston college over the giant job. They hired Fassel in 97 who was on the handleys staff in 91 and 92
in 2005. The Giants have won two Super Bowls under his co-ownership.
That's as many as Wellington won in 38 years.
Wellington also was owner during some really tough times in Giants history.
History shows that when it comes to sports, for most franchises, it's all peaks and valleys - and we in a valley and have been for a while now.
Come on......TC was almost totally responsible for the 2004-2012 run. If anything, I think Reese/Ross influenced Mara starting around 2012 that created this mess.
I initially liked the hire but we are not a mentally tough team. We are not physically tough. We are a finesse team an that bothers me.
What happened to run the ball, stop the run, rush the passer?
I'm waiting!
What made you think he was any of those things?
There is nothing in his coaching resume that one can point to that indicates that.
A lot of guys can have a good interview, spit the game they need to so the owner and GM fall in love, and then put on a nice suit at the press conference and say a bunch of platitudes in front of a microphone to get the fans existed. Adam Gase is Exhibit A for some of this.
Clearly this man wasn't vetted properly. But now they won't want to appear inept, so they are going to ride it out until they can comfortably feel its ok to ship him out. However, the GM and people that brought Shurmur as a suggested hire, need to be held to account as well.
But I also think he's had next-to-nothing to work with. Terrible offensive lines, a declining Eli, a wildly turnover-prone rookie QB, two of the worst defenses I've ever seen, and wide receivers who can't generate any separation (since the Odell trade). This team is basically terrible in every facet of the game except at RB and punting.
But he's a bad coach. In game, he lacks feel for time management and for putting together critical drives. He makes questionable decisions of when to go for it, and when not to. His play-calling is suspect. His team lacks discipline. He also seems like he's kind of uninteresting, not personable, and not really a leader in the "inspires men" way or in the "tough guy" way. Basically, he doesn't look good at all in any way. I can't think of anything to say about him that's positive and I really mean that.
Giving some semblance of the benefit of the doubt to Mara/Gettleman, you have to think that he interviewed well. He was a successful OC for Minny at the time, and well regarded. He obviously hit the talking points well enough that management said, "OK forget his time with the Browns, he had no talent there. This is our guy." Except, he really doesn't have talent here either, and now we've seen him in action. He isn't the guy. He's not the solution to our problems, there's no way. Our problems run DEEP. Our entire team is a disaster.
I can't sit here and say that Mara/Gettleman will fail with the next coach. The list of interviewees is not inspiring but I still can't sit here and say that they will fail. But I can sit here and say that they've failed with this one. And just like with Eli, every day that goes by where we don't fix this obvious mistake is a day lost. When we moved on from Eli, I was ready. I'm ready to move on from Shurmur. What more do we need to see? Worst case scenario the next coach is as-bad. I really don't think the next coach will be worse. He's 16-41 as a head coach. Honestly, how is it even possible they could pick someone worse?
As a HC with the Jags and turned them from an expansion team to a contender extremely quickly. He was absolutely a Jints hire, had worked extensively under Parcells, and it worked beautifully. All that said I have no idea what people mean by “going back to the well” with Shurmur, who had no such past record and very little ties to the Giants organization. We “went back to the well with DG” but IMO opinion Shurmur is the much much bigger problem right now, he’s been an absolute failure as a HC in this league and we have no credentials or reasons to point to for why he should be the man for the job and should get a 3rd crack at this (3rd season) with the kind of record he has posted.
people complaining about Mara/Tisch and Jints central when TC lead the Giants to two Super Bowls.
TC was the ultimate Jints hire - and it worked like a champ.
They went back to the well and it didn't work (at least not right away). That doesn't make them bad owners.
I think its clear Tisch has been more in the forefront since TCs hire. Its a horrendously stupid management setup, two owners running a franchise, and accounts for where things started to go wrong.
people complaining about Mara/Tisch and Jints central when TC lead the Giants to two Super Bowls.
TC was the ultimate Jints hire - and it worked like a champ.
They went back to the well and it didn't work (at least not right away). That doesn't make them bad owners.
Accorsi hired him. Remember, until Jawn started sticking his nose in around 2013, the GM ran football operations and the coach coached under the Rozelle agreement for lack of a better label. McAdoo and Shurmur represent the best of Mara Magical Thinking; all we need to do is to get the right system and these players will go on to victory. We are right back in the 70's kids.
Even despite winning two unbelievable, unexpected SBs, that is just the wrong model to build a team.
Either let the GM pick his HC. Or let the HC wear both hats, HC and GM (which is what I prefer). But you can't let the owner pick both independently...
for these "rebuilding years", I think we at least expected by year 2 to be maybe challenging to finish .500. We're a missed 34 yd FG away from being 1-7 right now. We were 5-11 last year. I didn't expect to make the playoffs or win the division this year, but considering it's year 2 of this regime I at least expected improvement. Nothing we're seeing right now resembles any sort of improvement or "trending upwards" in any way. The team honestly seems to be regressing. The sad thing is we may have not even hit rock bottom yet and we've wasted 1.5 years of Barkley's career.
RE: Recall that it was reported that Shurmur did Â
really well in the interview stages of the process. Which might be Mara's weakness.
I agree... I remember this as well. Here's the thing, it's not irrelevant to do well in the interview. I can totally see a guy coming in, impressing and going on to become a great coach. But whatever he did or said in the interviews has not translated onto the field. It doesn't mean that we will never be able to find a good head coach from interviews alone. But I'd like to think that people learn from their mistakes. In this case, Mara/Gettleman should think about hiring someone with a track record of some success, who ALSO interviews well.
11 years before Coughlin was hired by Wellington. I believe when he started in 1994 Dan Reeves had already been hired by Frank Gifford after everyone George Young asked said no.
There were articles in 2004 about Ernie denying Wellington made the call and saying it was his call and he's the one that wanted Coughlin. But when Ernie quit after two years of battles with Coughlin and wasn't on the payroll anymore and wrote his book there was a very different tone.
Tom Coughlin is a prick. So is Bill Parcells. Most great NFL coaches are. It seems to be a required skill set. Nice guy adults don't seem to win much in the NFL. Note to the Mara Bros. stay away from classy adults when looking for your next coach and find the next great Giant prick.
RE: I also think when people were talking about tempering expectations Â
for these "rebuilding years", I think we at least expected by year 2 to be maybe challenging to finish .500. We're a missed 34 yd FG away from being 1-7 right now. We were 5-11 last year. I didn't expect to make the playoffs or win the division this year, but considering it's year 2 of this regime I at least expected improvement. Nothing we're seeing right now resembles any sort of improvement or "trending upwards" in any way. The team honestly seems to be regressing. The sad thing is we may have not even hit rock bottom yet and we've wasted 1.5 years of Barkley's career.
The progression the way it's normally done, goes as follows:
Year 1 - You know you will suck hard. But everyone else knows too. No false expectations. You clean out the roster and begin to instill your own culture. The fat is being trimmed. You are mostly going to be high on energy, but low on talent. Lot of losses coming, but you know good days are ahead.
Year 2 - Your culture and system now has had a year. The new people know what's expected. You know who can play from who can't. You bring in new talent into the fold. The players from the first year progress into better players and new leaders. You are not going to compete at a higher level than you did the year before. You are not getting drubbed on a weekly basis. Games are far more competitive. You even have some "statement" wins against a quality opponent or two to show everyone that this is a team on the rise. You can see it with each game. Even better days are coming.
Year 3 - You have your first and second year players now advancing further, who set the tone for other players coming in. You have had the experience of losing a lot, but also showed that you can beat some of the better teams on a given day. Additional talent is now being added, but mainly guys who fill in the puzzle. The time to start winning more than losing is upon everyone. The coaches know their players. If by this point, you are STILL losing, that is problematic.
Usually, that is how it goes down when starting from scratch.
The problem is, we are not seeing much progression with a good amount of these players that have been brought in. They don't look any more competitive now than they did last year. Which means either they have brought in the wrong players, they are not being coached properly, or both.
"Tom Coughlin is the man we wanted 11 years ago and he is the man we wanted now. Aside from his family, Tom has one interest: winning."
So I always had the impression that Accorsi was all in...and lead the hire.
That's exactly the quote I was thinking of.
Is it that TC wasn't Accorsi's top choice, or is it that Accorsi literally didn't want Coughlin? Some people are framing it as the latter - I'm not sure that's true; unless Accorsi explicitly says that in the book. I didn't read it. I didn't think he was ever hard up against hiring Coughlin, though - but... yeah, it's been 15 years and I could easily just not be remembering how it all went down as clearly.
In any event.... my points on John Mara remain.
Don't think the guy has a fucking clue.
AS I recall Accorsi did not want the very strong opinionated Coughlin Â
as HC. But the rest of management did and had for years. So Accorsi screwed them all by hiring the reach Reese. Who killed the team after 6 years by his incompetent player selections. Accorsi is a sneaky get even SOB. Who Coughlin would have told to f///k off very quickly and WA knew it. MO
"Tom Coughlin is the man we wanted 11 years ago and he is the man we wanted now. Aside from his family, Tom has one interest: winning."
So I always had the impression that Accorsi was all in...and lead the hire.
That's exactly the quote I was thinking of.
Is it that TC wasn't Accorsi's top choice, or is it that Accorsi literally didn't want Coughlin? Some people are framing it as the latter - I'm not sure that's true; unless Accorsi explicitly says that in the book. I didn't read it. I didn't think he was ever hard up against hiring Coughlin, though - but... yeah, it's been 15 years and I could easily just not be remembering how it all went down as clearly.
In any event.... my points on John Mara remain.
Don't think the guy has a fucking clue.
Accorsi doesn't come out and specifically state he wanted no part of TC in the book, but it's not exactly carefully hidden between the lines. He was making a hard push for Saban and he didn't think that TC would take to relinquishing the GM role he had in Jax.
His book came out in 2006 when Coughlin was on the verge of getting fired, and he did a little bit of throwing him under the bus because that was the way the wind was blowing.
When the Giants won the Super Bowl, he went back to being the guy who had always wanted Coughlin all along.
RE: Accorsi was on board with Coughlin's hiring. Â
His book came out in 2006 when Coughlin was on the verge of getting fired, and he did a little bit of throwing him under the bus because that was the way the wind was blowing.
When the Giants won the Super Bowl, he went back to being the guy who had always wanted Coughlin all along.
Pretty sure he repeated the same story in the Palladino book that came out a few years ago.
Accorsi was enamored with Saban - he wanted him when the Giants went after Fassel to replace Reeves, and desperately wanted to have him in the mix when the Giants hired Coughlin. Hell, even the papers had to run damage control articles at the time with Accorsi stating publicly that he wasn't forced to hire Coughlin. https://nypost.com/2004/01/14/accorsi-well-didnt-push-me-to-coughlin/ - ( New Window )
That should read they even had to run damage control Â
The world is flat Arnie. Coughlin wouldn't have been here if Accorsi said no. He may have preferred Saban, hell he may have advocated for Saban, (and based on St. Nick's face plant in Miami, thank God he didn't carry the day), but they all agreed and TC became the HC. And I'd be willing to bet after looking at the two Lombardis, Accorsi wouldn't even recognize Saban's name.
it would not surprise me to learn that there were two or three others in the mix (Tisch, Mara and Accorsi all having their favorites) and Coughlin was the compromise candidate on which they could all agree.
that was Wellington through and through. he wanted a disciplinarian after the mess the team had become under Fassel. keep in mind, Fassel was also increasingly an embarrassment to ownership off the field, which is why they subsequently bad-mouthed him to other teams, and Mara knew he'd have none of those problems with Coughlin. Accorsi is clear about how he felt about Coughlin in his book - TC came into the interview and proceeded to give some lengthy monologue. I'm not sure what else you expect him to say in public.
there's little question that John Mara hired McAdoo. to Reese's credit, he did not want McAdoo, though his preferred candidate was apparently Mike Smith, so not exactly a stirring alternative. Mara apparently thought highly of Green Bay - apparently believing there was some sort of Mike McCarthy coaching tree - and got spooked by the rumors around Philly's interest. The history of the Giants letting young assistants leave to have success elsewhere trumped anyone in the organization's actual ability to evaluate McAdoo's football acumen and readiness, neither of which were very high.
Shurmur's hire was a pretty clear response to McAdoo - how many times did Mara talk about the value his father placed on hiring a coach with experience who had something to prove. But there's no evidence Gettleman wanted anyone else. DG did oversee the hiring process.
the story of the MAra family and the Giants is very complex and ranges Â
from why the team sits in the sunny side of the field (even in summer) when it’s hot and most teams at home don’t and why the Mara’s think they are “football” guys when they are at best unsuccessful. It is the MAras team of which they are literally and figuratively the face, and in no small way their league. However it’s a very complex and mostly pr billboard.
The sunny side of the field is reputed to date from Wellington’s propensity to catch “colds” so as soon as he was attending games and sitting with the team, his mother insisted the team sit in the sun.That and the presence of a Roman Catholic priest on the bench were a Mara family mark on the Giants “field” presence for many decades.
The Ownership 50-50 control between Wellington and Tim following untimely death of ?John led to storied dysfunction of the entire franchise and the commissioner command in 1979 to hire George YOung. Before That Wellington had served as GM which was a disaster followed by his hiring of ex Giant buddies as GM like Robustelli, who also was a disaster. Thus the mistaken idea that Wellington was a football man.We may be seeing the same phenomenon with Chris (&John) Mara now.
I fear the Mara “football” family myth will live leading to continued Giant disaster until somehow things are forced to change. It is their team, they can do whatever they want. We suffer, it is what Giant fans do.
I will say - he comments reek of a guy that was told to hire someone he didn't want.
So maybe you're right.
Link - ( New Window )
Don't get me wrong; Pat Shurmur has been terrible. He deserves to be fired. Gettleman has been a mixed bag. You can point to some good stuff, you can point to some 'eh' - and you can definitely point to some bad.
If John Mara is the one who is hiring the coaches, we're in even deeper shit than I thought because guess what... all that means is that he's picking the next guy, too. Why should we have any confidence Shurmur's successor will be better when he's really not much better than McAdoo (if at all) ?
Gettleman shouldn't be absolved entirely here, but the fact that John and Chris Mara are still at the top of this food chain gives me just about zero confidence in a fix coming any time soon.
I don't think either guy really has any idea what they're doing or looking for.
If I owned an NFL team, I would pick the GM. Someone I put my faith in. Allow the GM to make coaching decisions unless I was a "football guy" for many years. Maybe Mara sees himself as a football guy. If so, his company won't have much success.
I will say - he comments reek of a guy that was told to hire someone he didn't want.
So maybe you're right. Link - ( New Window )
I just remembered Accorsi saying when they introduced Coughlin that he was the guy they wanted for 11 years or something like that.
I think the other guys were interviewed were Crennel, Weis and Lovie. Not sure if EA wanted one of them more than Coughlin, my memory from 15 years ago is a bit foggy.
What happened to run the ball, stop the run, rush the passer?
I'm waiting!
Quote:
John Mara deserves credit for keeping Coughlin after 2006 & 2010.
Why? They were a WC in 2006, and won 10 games in 2010 (and were only 3 years off of a SB win).
I’m guessing you didn’t read BBI in January of 2007. Mara was killed for keeping Coughlin.
Quote:
said it after the fact - which would make total sense. But all I could find after a quick google search was this article.
I will say - he comments reek of a guy that was told to hire someone he didn't want.
So maybe you're right. Link - ( New Window )
I just remembered Accorsi saying when they introduced Coughlin that he was the guy they wanted for 11 years or something like that.
I think the other guys were interviewed were Crennel, Weis and Lovie. Not sure if EA wanted one of them more than Coughlin, my memory from 15 years ago is a bit foggy.
Accorsi wanted Saban, Mara wanted Coughlin..
That's as many as Wellington won in 38 years.
Wellington also was owner during some really tough times in Giants history.
History shows that when it comes to sports, for most franchises, it's all peaks and valleys - and we in a valley and have been for a while now.
Quote:
In comment 14664742 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
said it after the fact - which would make total sense. But all I could find after a quick google search was this article.
I will say - he comments reek of a guy that was told to hire someone he didn't want.
So maybe you're right. Link - ( New Window )
I just remembered Accorsi saying when they introduced Coughlin that he was the guy they wanted for 11 years or something like that.
I think the other guys were interviewed were Crennel, Weis and Lovie. Not sure if EA wanted one of them more than Coughlin, my memory from 15 years ago is a bit foggy.
Accorsi wanted Saban, Mara wanted Coughlin..
I'm pretty sure Saban passed on the Giants - if memory serves correctly - not the other way around.
TC was the ultimate Jints hire - and it worked like a champ.
They went back to the well and it didn't work (at least not right away). That doesn't make them bad owners.
People weren’t complaining about Wellington in the late 60s either. Then the 15 shitty years followed.
Mara means well but he’s made so many terrible decisions lately.
In case you have forgotten, they didn't make the playoffs
his last four years here, just saying.
Exactly. This really pisses me off to. The guy was 22-34 from week 9 of 2012 until he was let go in 2015. He should of been fired after 2014 and got another year. He missed the playoffs 4 years in a row and had 3 straight losing season and people say he should of never been let go... I am starting to see in with Eli to.. people are saying how they should put him back in smh
Don't get me wrong; Pat Shurmur has been terrible. He deserves to be fired. Gettleman has been a mixed bag. You can point to some good stuff, you can point to some 'eh' - and you can definitely point to some bad.
If John Mara is the one who is hiring the coaches, we're in even deeper shit than I thought because guess what... all that means is that he's picking the next guy, too. Why should we have any confidence Shurmur's successor will be better when he's really not much better than McAdoo (if at all) ?
Gettleman shouldn't be absolved entirely here, but the fact that John and Chris Mara are still at the top of this food chain gives me just about zero confidence in a fix coming any time soon.
I don't think either guy really has any idea what they're doing or looking for.
It is really difficult to see who is making the decisions. This seems to have gotten worse post 2011 Super Bowl team imo.
The OP is correct the Mara's usually hire the coaches. Wellington hired all the post Allie Sherman coaches until George Young hired Perkins and Parcells. But the Mara's wouldn't let him him fire Parcells after 1983. Young hired the coach after Parcells too and Fassel. Dan Reeves was hired by Wellington after several people Young wanted turned down the job.
Unless the Tisch family has the will and/or the power to do something about it the Mara's will continue to run the entire football program and boy do they suck at it.
Quote:
.
Wellington Mara
I agree. I think he wanted Welly wanted him for a long time and he was from the Parcells tree. Ernie I think would have preferred Saban but was over-ruled.
That's as many as Wellington won in 38 years.
Wellington also was owner during some really tough times in Giants history.
History shows that when it comes to sports, for most franchises, it's all peaks and valleys - and we in a valley and have been for a while now.
great points. I still laugh when people mention Wellington like he is some kind of saint. He ran the team into the ground upon his brother Jacks death, fought with his nephew on how to run the team and after 15 years of futility he had to have the league step(the Knicks should be so lucky) in to have any success. His success came after he realized that there are smarter football people than him and THEY should run the team(kinda like Steinbrenner was FORCED to learn that same thing in the early 90's). Tim, his son, doesn't seem to be interfering and seems to have the right intentions, he just doesn't have good luck, good instincts and or good knowledge. Not sure how many owners I'd rather have. Just need to get some decisions right.
Yup. They wanted coughlin after the 92 season and he choose Boston college over the giant job. They hired Fassel in 97 who was on the handleys staff in 91 and 92
That's as many as Wellington won in 38 years.
Wellington also was owner during some really tough times in Giants history.
History shows that when it comes to sports, for most franchises, it's all peaks and valleys - and we in a valley and have been for a while now.
Come on......TC was almost totally responsible for the 2004-2012 run. If anything, I think Reese/Ross influenced Mara starting around 2012 that created this mess.
What happened to run the ball, stop the run, rush the passer?
I'm waiting!
What made you think he was any of those things?
There is nothing in his coaching resume that one can point to that indicates that.
A lot of guys can have a good interview, spit the game they need to so the owner and GM fall in love, and then put on a nice suit at the press conference and say a bunch of platitudes in front of a microphone to get the fans existed. Adam Gase is Exhibit A for some of this.
Clearly this man wasn't vetted properly. But now they won't want to appear inept, so they are going to ride it out until they can comfortably feel its ok to ship him out. However, the GM and people that brought Shurmur as a suggested hire, need to be held to account as well.
But I also think he's had next-to-nothing to work with. Terrible offensive lines, a declining Eli, a wildly turnover-prone rookie QB, two of the worst defenses I've ever seen, and wide receivers who can't generate any separation (since the Odell trade). This team is basically terrible in every facet of the game except at RB and punting.
But he's a bad coach. In game, he lacks feel for time management and for putting together critical drives. He makes questionable decisions of when to go for it, and when not to. His play-calling is suspect. His team lacks discipline. He also seems like he's kind of uninteresting, not personable, and not really a leader in the "inspires men" way or in the "tough guy" way. Basically, he doesn't look good at all in any way. I can't think of anything to say about him that's positive and I really mean that.
Giving some semblance of the benefit of the doubt to Mara/Gettleman, you have to think that he interviewed well. He was a successful OC for Minny at the time, and well regarded. He obviously hit the talking points well enough that management said, "OK forget his time with the Browns, he had no talent there. This is our guy." Except, he really doesn't have talent here either, and now we've seen him in action. He isn't the guy. He's not the solution to our problems, there's no way. Our problems run DEEP. Our entire team is a disaster.
I can't sit here and say that Mara/Gettleman will fail with the next coach. The list of interviewees is not inspiring but I still can't sit here and say that they will fail. But I can sit here and say that they've failed with this one. And just like with Eli, every day that goes by where we don't fix this obvious mistake is a day lost. When we moved on from Eli, I was ready. I'm ready to move on from Shurmur. What more do we need to see? Worst case scenario the next coach is as-bad. I really don't think the next coach will be worse. He's 16-41 as a head coach. Honestly, how is it even possible they could pick someone worse?
TC was the ultimate Jints hire - and it worked like a champ.
They went back to the well and it didn't work (at least not right away). That doesn't make them bad owners.
I think its clear Tisch has been more in the forefront since TCs hire. Its a horrendously stupid management setup, two owners running a franchise, and accounts for where things started to go wrong.
Mara certainly signs off, but the DG has to be the guy running that process and finding the guy that fits his vision.
TC was the ultimate Jints hire - and it worked like a champ.
They went back to the well and it didn't work (at least not right away). That doesn't make them bad owners.
I don't buy it. But let's say this is true.
Even despite winning two unbelievable, unexpected SBs, that is just the wrong model to build a team.
Either let the GM pick his HC. Or let the HC wear both hats, HC and GM (which is what I prefer). But you can't let the owner pick both independently...
So I always had the impression that Accorsi was all in...and lead the hire.
I agree... I remember this as well. Here's the thing, it's not irrelevant to do well in the interview. I can totally see a guy coming in, impressing and going on to become a great coach. But whatever he did or said in the interviews has not translated onto the field. It doesn't mean that we will never be able to find a good head coach from interviews alone. But I'd like to think that people learn from their mistakes. In this case, Mara/Gettleman should think about hiring someone with a track record of some success, who ALSO interviews well.
There were articles in 2004 about Ernie denying Wellington made the call and saying it was his call and he's the one that wanted Coughlin. But when Ernie quit after two years of battles with Coughlin and wasn't on the payroll anymore and wrote his book there was a very different tone.
Tom Coughlin is a prick. So is Bill Parcells. Most great NFL coaches are. It seems to be a required skill set. Nice guy adults don't seem to win much in the NFL. Note to the Mara Bros. stay away from classy adults when looking for your next coach and find the next great Giant prick.
The progression the way it's normally done, goes as follows:
Year 1 - You know you will suck hard. But everyone else knows too. No false expectations. You clean out the roster and begin to instill your own culture. The fat is being trimmed. You are mostly going to be high on energy, but low on talent. Lot of losses coming, but you know good days are ahead.
Year 2 - Your culture and system now has had a year. The new people know what's expected. You know who can play from who can't. You bring in new talent into the fold. The players from the first year progress into better players and new leaders. You are not going to compete at a higher level than you did the year before. You are not getting drubbed on a weekly basis. Games are far more competitive. You even have some "statement" wins against a quality opponent or two to show everyone that this is a team on the rise. You can see it with each game. Even better days are coming.
Year 3 - You have your first and second year players now advancing further, who set the tone for other players coming in. You have had the experience of losing a lot, but also showed that you can beat some of the better teams on a given day. Additional talent is now being added, but mainly guys who fill in the puzzle. The time to start winning more than losing is upon everyone. The coaches know their players. If by this point, you are STILL losing, that is problematic.
Usually, that is how it goes down when starting from scratch.
The problem is, we are not seeing much progression with a good amount of these players that have been brought in. They don't look any more competitive now than they did last year. Which means either they have brought in the wrong players, they are not being coached properly, or both.
Quote:
"Tom Coughlin is the man we wanted 11 years ago and he is the man we wanted now. Aside from his family, Tom has one interest: winning."
So I always had the impression that Accorsi was all in...and lead the hire.
That's exactly the quote I was thinking of.
Is it that TC wasn't Accorsi's top choice, or is it that Accorsi literally didn't want Coughlin? Some people are framing it as the latter - I'm not sure that's true; unless Accorsi explicitly says that in the book. I didn't read it. I didn't think he was ever hard up against hiring Coughlin, though - but... yeah, it's been 15 years and I could easily just not be remembering how it all went down as clearly.
In any event.... my points on John Mara remain.
Don't think the guy has a fucking clue.
Quote:
Accorsi said:
Quote:
"Tom Coughlin is the man we wanted 11 years ago and he is the man we wanted now. Aside from his family, Tom has one interest: winning."
So I always had the impression that Accorsi was all in...and lead the hire.
That's exactly the quote I was thinking of.
Is it that TC wasn't Accorsi's top choice, or is it that Accorsi literally didn't want Coughlin? Some people are framing it as the latter - I'm not sure that's true; unless Accorsi explicitly says that in the book. I didn't read it. I didn't think he was ever hard up against hiring Coughlin, though - but... yeah, it's been 15 years and I could easily just not be remembering how it all went down as clearly.
In any event.... my points on John Mara remain.
Don't think the guy has a fucking clue.
Accorsi doesn't come out and specifically state he wanted no part of TC in the book, but it's not exactly carefully hidden between the lines. He was making a hard push for Saban and he didn't think that TC would take to relinquishing the GM role he had in Jax.
When the Giants won the Super Bowl, he went back to being the guy who had always wanted Coughlin all along.
When the Giants won the Super Bowl, he went back to being the guy who had always wanted Coughlin all along.
Pretty sure he repeated the same story in the Palladino book that came out a few years ago.
Accorsi was enamored with Saban - he wanted him when the Giants went after Fassel to replace Reeves, and desperately wanted to have him in the mix when the Giants hired Coughlin. Hell, even the papers had to run damage control articles at the time with Accorsi stating publicly that he wasn't forced to hire Coughlin.
https://nypost.com/2004/01/14/accorsi-well-didnt-push-me-to-coughlin/ - ( New Window )
there's little question that John Mara hired McAdoo. to Reese's credit, he did not want McAdoo, though his preferred candidate was apparently Mike Smith, so not exactly a stirring alternative. Mara apparently thought highly of Green Bay - apparently believing there was some sort of Mike McCarthy coaching tree - and got spooked by the rumors around Philly's interest. The history of the Giants letting young assistants leave to have success elsewhere trumped anyone in the organization's actual ability to evaluate McAdoo's football acumen and readiness, neither of which were very high.
Shurmur's hire was a pretty clear response to McAdoo - how many times did Mara talk about the value his father placed on hiring a coach with experience who had something to prove. But there's no evidence Gettleman wanted anyone else. DG did oversee the hiring process.
The sunny side of the field is reputed to date from Wellington’s propensity to catch “colds” so as soon as he was attending games and sitting with the team, his mother insisted the team sit in the sun.That and the presence of a Roman Catholic priest on the bench were a Mara family mark on the Giants “field” presence for many decades.
The Ownership 50-50 control between Wellington and Tim following untimely death of ?John led to storied dysfunction of the entire franchise and the commissioner command in 1979 to hire George YOung. Before That Wellington had served as GM which was a disaster followed by his hiring of ex Giant buddies as GM like Robustelli, who also was a disaster. Thus the mistaken idea that Wellington was a football man.We may be seeing the same phenomenon with Chris (&John) Mara now.
I fear the Mara “football” family myth will live leading to continued Giant disaster until somehow things are forced to change. It is their team, they can do whatever they want. We suffer, it is what Giant fans do.