I absolutely want to see a change and think it’s required at this point, it’s obvious Shurmur isn’t up to it.
Trouble is we’re not going to have some outside consultants running a search, it’ll all get handled by Mara and the gang. Out of curiosity I went back and looked at who else this team interviewed ahead of the last two hires, needed a reminder of who else was considered. Overall it is not a candidate pool that inspires confidence in the process:
2016 -
Hired: Ben McAdoo
Interviewed:
Steve Spagnuolo
Teryl Austin
Adam Gase
Doug Marrone
Mike Smith
*planned to interview Hue Jackson but he turned them down
2018 -
Hired: Pat Shurmur
Interviewed:
Steve Spagnuolo
Matt Patricia
Josh McDaniels
Eric Studesville
Steve Wilks
My biggest concern with Mara is he really doesn’t even know what to look for. So while I think another change is necessary, I don’t have confidence they can find the right guy for the job. Seeing these names didn’t change that.
We have TWO big problems:
(1) The current coaching staff isn't going to get it done.
(2) Mara seems incapable of picking the right man for the job.
Meanwhile they have absolutely no NFL network outside of their tiny circle of trust. They have no idea how the smart teams in the league operate and no interest in changing the "the way we've always done it".
John Mara needs his George Young but he has no idea how to find him and wouldn't turn things over to him even if he did. Tim Mara Jr. and Pete Rozelle are long gone.
I think Matt rhule would be a great hire
Me too. That would be a great pick tol
And you're absolutely right, the last 2 times we we're hiring coaches, we interviewed the most uninspiring and bland candidates you can put a list of.
Another reason why I think the Giants would sprint to hire Jason Garrett if he were ever to become available. He fits all of the Mara traits. Safe, conservative and has ties to the organization.
And you're absolutely right, the last 2 times we we're hiring coaches, we interviewed the most uninspiring and bland candidates you can put a list of.
Another reason why I think the Giants would sprint to hire Jason Garrett if he were ever to become available. He fits all of the Mara traits. Safe, conservative and has ties to the organization.
*Were not we're
When you taking losing programs twice and turn them around...there is something good with this guy that translates into winning.
Hugh Jackson (fired) 3-36-1
Ben MacAdoo (fired) 14-18
Dick Koetter 19-29
Adam Gase 23-15
Mike Mularkey 18-14
AND OF COURSE
Doug Peterson 29-19
I believe it was rumored at the time that the Giants "beat" the Eagles to MacAdoo forcing the Eagles to "settle" for Peterson.
If you want a HC with a Defensive orientation, you gotta look at him.
Shurmur has shown he in way over his head.
I like a few name thrown out in this thread. Rhule and Richard I think would do well.
Why? What has he done besides be belicheks son
He was 13-3, 11-4, 11-3-1 and 8-8 in his final season.
I know he has repeatedly said he is staying in Michigan but everyone has a number.
Jim Harbaugh Coaching Stats - ( New Window )
When you taking losing programs twice and turn them around...there is something good with this guy that translates into winning.
Rhule has been the guy I've had my eye on for years for the Giants. It seemed when he left the Giants to go to Temple, it seemed similar to the way that Coughlin was routed to Boston College in 1991. Coughlin was more seasoned of a coach which is why they tried to get him back in 1993 to replace Handley but settled on Reeves (Coughlin wanted to give BC 3 years and stick it to Notre Dame for running up the score in 1992, I was there for it as a student).
Rhule turned around Temple and he picked up a cratered Baylor program in disgrace and has turned them around. We know that he interviewed with the Colts until he backed out, so we know that he's got the NFL on his mind.
Again, I know BBI wants the Giants to change their spots, but the reality is with the Maras at the helm, since 1981, the Giants have had 7 head coaches in the past nearly 40 years. Only 2 of them were not in the Giants family (Reeves and Shurmur). However, Reeves was a known quantity and his time in Dallas working under former Giant Tom Landry made him more familiar to the Giants. Shurmur is a football lifer, with an NFL coaching linage with his uncle Fritz.
If the Giants are going to go the young coach route from college, they will likely want a guy who was in the building at one point, and that's Rhule.
All of this is meaningless, since I don't think Shurmur is going to get fired and he will get one more year. But I think we all know that this guy isn't the right guy to lead the Giants anywhere. He might eek out a 9-7 and first round exit in the playoffs in 2020, but that's the high water mark. However....if he loses to the Jets....
And if you want to swing for the fences on a program builder, call Dabo Swinney and ask him if he wants to build an NFL program from the ground floor.
Man is it slim pickings for good HC prospects.
It would be bold coaching hire - for sure.
If he were to be successful, he would be the first in the recent history of the NFL to have that kind of track record and coach an NFL team to success.
This plan has disaster written all over it.
- increased time of possession and offensive plays
- decreased plays for our defense
Those two things alone would be better than anything Shurmur has done in 19 games here.
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Agree. Need a tougher minded coach who has turned programs around...even if its college level..don't care at this point
When you taking losing programs twice and turn them around...there is something good with this guy that translates into winning.
Rhule has been the guy I've had my eye on for years for the Giants. It seemed when he left the Giants to go to Temple, it seemed similar to the way that Coughlin was routed to Boston College in 1991. Coughlin was more seasoned of a coach which is why they tried to get him back in 1993 to replace Handley but settled on Reeves (Coughlin wanted to give BC 3 years and stick it to Notre Dame for running up the score in 1992, I was there for it as a student).
Rhule turned around Temple and he picked up a cratered Baylor program in disgrace and has turned them around. We know that he interviewed with the Colts until he backed out, so we know that he's got the NFL on his mind.
Again, I know BBI wants the Giants to change their spots, but the reality is with the Maras at the helm, since 1981, the Giants have had 7 head coaches in the past nearly 40 years. Only 2 of them were not in the Giants family (Reeves and Shurmur). However, Reeves was a known quantity and his time in Dallas working under former Giant Tom Landry made him more familiar to the Giants. Shurmur is a football lifer, with an NFL coaching linage with his uncle Fritz.
If the Giants are going to go the young coach route from college, they will likely want a guy who was in the building at one point, and that's Rhule.
All of this is meaningless, since I don't think Shurmur is going to get fired and he will get one more year. But I think we all know that this guy isn't the right guy to lead the Giants anywhere. He might eek out a 9-7 and first round exit in the playoffs in 2020, but that's the high water mark. However....if he loses to the Jets....
I fully agree with you about Rhule. The problem with not acting is I think other teams are aggressively going to be on him this off-season. If TC sticks in Jacksonville that may be who he targets. Rhule is also from NYC and he was a Linebacker at Penn State. While his experience is mostly tied to the offensive side I like that he played on the defensive side....especially at a school well known previously as Linebacker U.
I believe Reeves was highly recommended by one of Wellington's favorites......Frank Gifford.
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Enough is enough.
Why? What has he done besides be belicheks son
Well he is Secondary coach for the Pats and their secondary is probably best in the NFL this season. Its definitly not close to being all on him but clearly he is doing something well . No ?
However....if he loses to the Jets....
Fascinating comment to end on... and I think I might agree.
And Reich got very few interviews with other teams.
Reich wasn't even on the Giants interview list. They hired Shurmur a few weeks before Reich took the Colts job after the Super Bowl when McDaniels quit at the last second.
So if it appears they are looking for "safe" and "conservative" and are stuck in these parameters ("He looks like a Giants coach" - whatever that means), then the same similar candidates will get recycled.
Ernie Accorsi has been part of two coaching/management searches in the last few years. One here in Chicago with GM Ryan Pace (who traded UP for Trubisky) and with the Giants getting Pat Shurmur. Both guys are on pace to flame out based on their (lack of) abilities. This should be an alarming sign.
Some time back I asked about money being a factor with Mara and addressing coaching with little response. I actually agree with you. That is very unfortunate if true.
I also heard that he's friendly with the Mara family.
Why hasn't he ever been considered?
He's an ex-NFL lineman so he knows the importance of winning in the trenches. And he's a native New Yorker so he's not going to be cowed by the big city media.
What the hell more could Mara have wanted in a coach?
I also heard that he's friendly with the Mara family.
Why hasn't he ever been considered?
Because he's been sitting in a TV studio for 13 years and there's no indication he wants to leave it.
As Mike Lombardi says, these are all just primary campaigns to be the next “hot assistant candidate”.
I have zero confidence in him to tactfully target and employ a new GM/HC duo that will get the Giants out of this. He'll just have an old buddy consult him and we'll take someone from our nice family circle.
I'm almost afraid that whatever is behind Door #3 is going to be worse than Pat Shurmur...
I have zero confidence in him to tactfully target and employ a new GM/HC duo that will get the Giants out of this. He'll just have an old buddy consult him and we'll take someone from our nice family circle.
I'm almost afraid that whatever is behind Door #3 is going to be worse than Pat Shurmur...
Shurmur is the worst Giants coach in history. One of the worst coaches in the history of the NFL. The Giants would have to try to find a bigger loser than Shurmur. And even if they tried to find a bigger loser, they wouldn't be able to.
Shurmur makes Ray Handley look like a good coach. He makes McAdoo look like a terrific coach.
Anyone involved with hiring this loser needs to be fired too
I have zero confidence in him to tactfully target and employ a new GM/HC duo that will get the Giants out of this. He'll just have an old buddy consult him and we'll take someone from our nice family circle.
I'm almost afraid that whatever is behind Door #3 is going to be worse than Pat Shurmur...
I posted John Mara’s end of season presser after 2013 last week. This was a crucial press conference because it pinpointed there moment where Mara began to meddle imo, he referenced the following:
-Why did it take so long to see Jernigan on the field?
-The offense is broken
-Made it clear there needed to be staff changes
Owners do not need to be savvy football people. Mara needs to give the keys to the right person to run this franchise. Accorsi & Reese we’re both good GM’s for this franchise. There’s been multiple issues which have contributed to where we are, but I think meddling from Mara from 2013-2016 is a big reason we are where we are.
However, I don’t think he’s meddling anymore. He’s given the keys to Gettleman to run the franchise & gave Shurmur a 5 year deal to figure this out. There was no state of the Giants presser after 2018, he’s taken a step back. Unfortunately, we are 7-18 under this regime and I think he’ll have to do something.
Ray Handley was brutal and so was McAdoo. No one on the planet makes either guy look good.
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It almost feels like it's going to take John Mara 'lucking' into a GM hire with the balls to show him exactly why the Giants have been failing as an org. over the last handful of years for this to get fixed.
I have zero confidence in him to tactfully target and employ a new GM/HC duo that will get the Giants out of this. He'll just have an old buddy consult him and we'll take someone from our nice family circle.
I'm almost afraid that whatever is behind Door #3 is going to be worse than Pat Shurmur...
I posted John Mara’s end of season presser after 2013 last week. This was a crucial press conference because it pinpointed there moment where Mara began to meddle imo, he referenced the following:
-Why did it take so long to see Jernigan on the field?
-The offense is broken
-Made it clear there needed to be staff changes
Owners do not need to be savvy football people. Mara needs to give the keys to the right person to run this franchise. Accorsi & Reese we’re both good GM’s for this franchise. There’s been multiple issues which have contributed to where we are, but I think meddling from Mara from 2013-2016 is a big reason we are where we are.
However, I don’t think he’s meddling anymore. He’s given the keys to Gettleman to run the franchise & gave Shurmur a 5 year deal to figure this out. There was no state of the Giants presser after 2018, he’s taken a step back. Unfortunately, we are 7-18 under this regime and I think he’ll have to do something.
How recently is 'anymore' ?
Because he absolutely meddled when it came to Eli and that decision was made as recently as this past offseason. There's no way that decision was 100% Gettleman and Shurmur.
And of course I don't expect HIM to be the football savvy guy; the problem is I don't think he has any idea how to identify the right one to hand the keys off to. Why should we have any faith in that?
Even if he's no longer meddling in football operations, he's got to be the guy to pick Dave Gettleman's successor if this doesn't work out - and that part is on him. If he picks the wrong guy again, it sets the Giants back another 3-5+ years.
We're quite literally in a place now where we just have to cross our fingers and hope that he stumbles into the right guy. I don't think Accorsi is going to lead him to that person...
Ravens & Packers stayed in house for their recent vacancies. John Dorsey has been worse than Gettleman. Ryan Pace in Chicago? The Texans don’t even have a GM. I wouldn’t trust Mara to hire a GM nor would I the majority of the NFL.
The same can be said about HC. Look at the coaches hired each year, the far majority do not last more than 2 years.
I wouldn’t be disappointed with a Gettleman-Rhule pairing.
Man is it slim pickings for good HC prospects.
Dabo has less 4 and 5 star recruits than all the other major programs and seems to consistently beat them.
Ravens & Packers stayed in house for their recent vacancies. John Dorsey has been worse than Gettleman. Ryan Pace in Chicago? The Texans don’t even have a GM. I wouldn’t trust Mara to hire a GM nor would I the majority of the NFL.
The same can be said about HC. Look at the coaches hired each year, the far majority do not last more than 2 years.
I wouldn’t be disappointed with a Gettleman-Rhule pairing.
It would if I had any faith in Mara to find someone better.
Unfortunately, I really don't. But, it's not particularly encouraging when the rationale becomes what we're at here... which is essentially, the next guy could be worse, so, we'll just stick with status quo.
While I certainly didn't expect NYG to be a 'good' team this year or be a playoff team or any of that; I was expecting to see tangible improvement - especially along the offensive line. And I still don't see it. All he talked about was his 'hog mollies' and fixing the lines. The owner talked about wanting to see improvement by the end of the year. Are we seeing improvement?
All we need to do is play Dallas to be reminded just how far away we actually are from line play that is actually good. Not just okay some weeks. But a strength.
Gettleman just gave up 2 draft picks for Leonard Williams and is probably going to pay him on top of it. Did it look like Leonard Williams helped at all last night? Zeke Elliott said it was the easiest 140 yards he's ever gained - and it looked that way too. There were massive holes right up the gut on nearly every attempt. One game is one game, but if Williams isn't helping us combat the run, what's he doing here?
I realize Barkley isn't healthy, but just look at what Elliott was working behind and what Barkley was. The difference is fucking massive.
We are still SO far away from being a competitive team. We're poorly coached, our offensive line is still horrendous, we still have roster holes everywhere. I never thought this would happen with the Giants, but I'm starting to see exactly how teams get caught in these gigantic decade long+ tailspins. The wrong people keep making the wrong decisions, and every reset and new hire tacks on more years and more time to what needs to be done here.
I'm always willing to look for the pluses or be patient; but even I am starting to have a lot of trouble seeing where this is going. I don't see this team getting better at all, and it's horribly depressing to see how far this franchise is falling.
They're a joke now. People laugh at us. This team was being talked about with the Patriots, Steelers, Packers, et al. less than 10 years ago.
Look where we are now.
It's bad.
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Dabo is the definition of a college coach. Maybe he'd be the next Pete Carroll but I'd doubt it. $uperior recruiting and Venables have been massive factors in Dabo's success.
Man is it slim pickings for good HC prospects.
Dabo has less 4 and 5 star recruits than all the other major programs and seems to consistently beat them.
They get more than their share. From the moment they inexplicably plucked Sammy Watkins and Cash Bellamy out of Florida away from the big 3 to now they've landed as many top recruits as anyone other than Bama. In the last few years the main thing that's kept them down in the rankings is having less scholarships available to offer. Lawrence and Watson were both major prospects and 2 elite QB's back to back goes a long way to staying on top.
Dabo has obviously done a great job beyond recruiting and I agree he's proven himself as a program builder, just don't think that's the most critical skill in the NFL when the talent levels are a lot flatter. But like I said I thought Carroll would flop after USC and he obviously didn't, so who knows. The biggest difference there is that Carroll had an NFL pedigree whereas Dabo was a college position coach.
Ray Handley was brutal and so was McAdoo. No one on the planet makes either guy look good.
Freddie Kitchens is an awful head coach, but he also has zero experience. Shurmur has plenty of experience as a head coach, yet routinely botches things a head coach shouldn't. No one will remember Freddie Kitchens 5 years from now when discussing awful head coaches, because he lasted only 1 season.
The Giants hired Shurmur despite being a loser as a head coach elsewhere. There is not one positive thing you can say about the guy.
Look at his winning percentage. It's one of the worst in the history of the league for a coach who lasted more than 1 year.
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Mook, he's a very shitty coach - but he might not even be the worst one in the league right now. Your post is dripping with hyperbole and gross exaggeration. Freddie Kitchens and Adam Gase are horrendous. The QBs on those teams are regressing in real time under those two. At least Jones has impressed people this year and has generally looked the part and played pretty well for a rookie.
Ray Handley was brutal and so was McAdoo. No one on the planet makes either guy look good.
Freddie Kitchens is an awful head coach, but he also has zero experience. Shurmur has plenty of experience as a head coach, yet routinely botches things a head coach shouldn't. No one will remember Freddie Kitchens 5 years from now when discussing awful head coaches, because he lasted only 1 season.
The Giants hired Shurmur despite being a loser as a head coach elsewhere. There is not one positive thing you can say about the guy.
Look at his winning percentage. It's one of the worst in the history of the league for a coach who lasted more than 1 year.
Why does experience matter? There's no handicap in football. Either you get results or you don't. Kitchens sucks and the most important player on his football team is going backwards and looks horrendous under his tutelage. Right now, he's employed as an NFL HC. He's 1 of 32 and he counts the same way Pat Shurmur does. Whether or not people remember him (they will - he'll be the butt end of jokes for a long time) - is largely irrelevant to the actual job he's doing.
Shurmur is positively awful - I am absolutely not defending him or anything about him. But, there are comparably bad coaches in the league right now - we don't need to even look to other eras.
One thing you don't hear with the Giants that you're hearing weekly with teams like the Jets and Browns is that the QB is regressing or playing terrible football. If anything, most people will say Daniel Jones has impressed them and that while they've seen mistakes - I think most people have come around and now kind of agree that he can play and that he was worth drafting in the 1st round. Even @ 6 overall.
So, if there's any silver lining here at all - at least its that this coach isn't wrecking the young QB. I still want him gone as soon as humanly possible, but I don't think he's going to negatively affect Jones or his development. Kitchens and Gase really might with Mayfield and Darnold.
Heck, the Redskins needed injuries to even get their guy on the field. Haskins was a QB who needed work and the Redskins don't seem to be getting anywhere there.