I dont think he is our long term solution at QB. Just no pocket awareness or vision. Those two things are very hard to correct or teach. You either have it or you dont. To be honest Im surprised we benched Eli for this.
that's all you can ask for. Some people got ahead of themselves with his sterling pre-season and the Tampa game and thought that he already was a high quality NFL QB. He's not that yet but gives plenty of indication that he will be.
Did you see anyone with separation like Cooper and Jarwin and Witten had? Every pass play he is holding onto the ball as long as he could just hoping someone can get free a bit......but it never happens.
I did not know what to expect when he was drafted,but,he has demonstrated the physical attributes and mental demeanor to be a really good QB.
The advanced statistics metrics bare this out.
Jones has been timed close to 20 mph on his runs only behind Lamar Jackson and Deshaun Watson.
He can make all the throws, he is accurate, with a quick strong release. His throws have been timed at 54 mph.
The mistakes he makes are correctable and with a better team around him he can be a franchise QB.
His receivers are quite ordinary and get no separation.
The average separation by the Giants receivers is less than 2 yards. Jones has the highest completion rate in the league on tight window throws. He has the most TDs on tight window throws.This is generally accepted as a predictor of future success.
Jones is in the top (3) in throwing under duress, so it is not surprising that he fumbles and has thrown interceptions. Jones throws 48% completions under duress and over 70% with a clean pocket. He has been sacked 31 times in 8 games.
With an average line and average receivers Jones would be producing on a consistent basis.
Some other notes about Jones, he is tough and willing to get his nose dirty.
He runs effectively and is a willing blocker.
I am not certain why the enmity that some Giant fans have shown Jones. What could they expect from a rookie QB on this team? Just think if the Giants had drafted Haskins, we would still have Eli playing.
The Giants are lucky that they have Daniel Jones he will be a significant reason for the Giants to become a good team.
Did you see anyone with separation like Cooper and Jarwin and Witten had? Every pass play he is holding onto the ball as long as he could just hoping someone can get free a bit......but it never happens.
Yeah our WR even when they make plays are doing it in traffic. Often a CB draped over them with a S closing in. That's a recipe for INT especially since DJ doesn't have a rifle arm.
who knows its all on him. Hes forcing some things a bit and is sloppy with holding onto the football.
The contrast is Darnold who looks lost on the football field, something over never once saw or thought from Jones. Hes trying to do too much. Its a problem, but its fixable especially if we get some good players blocking for him.
Jones seems to me, as a spectator as a great rookie, on a team with NO
defense, NO running game for whatever reason, and a very limited coaching staff. We are all spectators, so none of our opinions are fully informed. But to attack/fault Jones just seems to me the least informed of al opinions.
Which QB from the last two drafts would you rather have ? Jones has looked better than any QB taken in the last 2 drafts, he's looked better than Eli did in his rookie year and he's done it all playing for a shit team. Some of his failures and the offense in general is the direct result of this putrid defense. When a defense can't get off the field, the offense is always playing from behind. That in itself is going to result in high risk plays, sacks and sack/fumbles. Yes, Jones' ball security is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but I'll take his performance against a very good team over what we've seen with Darnold, Baker or Haskins.
You never heard of Lamar Jackson??
Lamar Jackson plays for a good team with a conservative offense and is in his second year. Despite that Jones had a higher completion percentage than Jackson did in his rookie year and has more yards passing in 7 games than Jackson had in 16. Who else would you like to compare Jones too. ? Perhaps you'd like to remind us that Brady had a better rookie year than Jones.
You're surprised we benched an almost 40 year old quarterback
in a lost season for the 6 overall pick? Are you serious? People have completely lost it, even if Jones becomes a complete bust, there is less than 0 reason to play Eli this season. He wasn't bringing us to the playoffs or adding any value as a player whatsoever.
The receivers inability to get open has been a recurring problem that is making Jones life exceedingly difficult. The Giants desperately miss top receiver Sterling Shepard, who has been sidelined for the past four games with a concussion. Theres no indication when (or if) Shepard will return this season.
Which QB from the last two drafts would you rather have ? Jones has looked better than any QB taken in the last 2 drafts, he's looked better than Eli did in his rookie year and he's done it all playing for a shit team. Some of his failures and the offense in general is the direct result of this putrid defense. When a defense can't get off the field, the offense is always playing from behind. That in itself is going to result in high risk plays, sacks and sack/fumbles. Yes, Jones' ball security is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but I'll take his performance against a very good team over what we've seen with Darnold, Baker or Haskins.
You never heard of Lamar Jackson??
Lamar Jackson plays for a good team with a conservative offense and is in his second year. Despite that Jones had a higher completion percentage than Jackson did in his rookie year and has more yards passing in 7 games than Jackson had in 16. Who else would you like to compare Jones too. ? Perhaps you'd like to remind us that Brady had a better rookie year than Jones.
Ravens have a much better defense and like you said, this is Jacksons second year, not first.
All he did last year was hand off, run himself, a few quick passes....then rely on the defense to win the game.
I really wanted Allen and then Minshew as a late round pick this year and one of the top QB's next draft like Fromm (Not Hebert or Tua) That being said.
You have to give the kid a break. Considering the shit show that he has been thrust into a rookie starter with below average o-line, weak coaches and play calling.
Rookies rarely shine, but I will be the first to admit that he has done a pretty decent job. The kid is earning his stripes. He deserves to be given at least a couple of seasons to sink or swim. He very well may turn out to be Tim Couch 2.0 but maybe he won't.
He's outperforming what our HOF quarterback had been doing the last few years. This is without OBJ, or Shep, and with Barkley sidelined most of the year.
With more experience, and a better line, those fumbles will be cut down.
I hated the pick BTW. I wanted us to draft Jackson last year, or play Eli again this year, and end up with a top pick to take a QB next year. But Danny Dimes has impressed and shown signs that he could be a successful QB for the next decade+.
Which QB from the last two drafts would you rather have ? Jones has looked better than any QB taken in the last 2 drafts, he's looked better than Eli did in his rookie year and he's done it all playing for a shit team. Some of his failures and the offense in general is the direct result of this putrid defense. When a defense can't get off the field, the offense is always playing from behind. That in itself is going to result in high risk plays, sacks and sack/fumbles. Yes, Jones' ball security is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but I'll take his performance against a very good team over what we've seen with Darnold, Baker or Haskins.
You never heard of Lamar Jackson??
Lamar Jackson plays for a good team with a conservative offense and is in his second year. Despite that Jones had a higher completion percentage than Jackson did in his rookie year and has more yards passing in 7 games than Jackson had in 16. Who else would you like to compare Jones too. ? Perhaps you'd like to remind us that Brady had a better rookie year than Jones.
Ravens have a much better defense and like you said, this is Jacksons second year, not first.
All he did last year was hand off, run himself, a few quick passes....then rely on the defense to win the game.
DJ and Lamar are the same age, by the way. Lamar just has a few more starts than Jones. If you think DJ has performed anywhere near Lamar, you are on crack.
Which QB from the last two drafts would you rather have ? Jones has looked better than any QB taken in the last 2 drafts, he's looked better than Eli did in his rookie year and he's done it all playing for a shit team. Some of his failures and the offense in general is the direct result of this putrid defense. When a defense can't get off the field, the offense is always playing from behind. That in itself is going to result in high risk plays, sacks and sack/fumbles. Yes, Jones' ball security is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but I'll take his performance against a very good team over what we've seen with Darnold, Baker or Haskins.
You never heard of Lamar Jackson??
Lamar Jackson plays for a good team with a conservative offense and is in his second year. Despite that Jones had a higher completion percentage than Jackson did in his rookie year and has more yards passing in 7 games than Jackson had in 16. Who else would you like to compare Jones too. ? Perhaps you'd like to remind us that Brady had a better rookie year than Jones.
Ravens have a much better defense and like you said, this is Jacksons second year, not first.
All he did last year was hand off, run himself, a few quick passes....then rely on the defense to win the game.
DJ and Lamar are the same age, by the way. Lamar just has a few more starts than Jones. If you think DJ has performed anywhere near Lamar, you are on crack.
You didnt answer my questions....are you ready to write Barkley, Sheppard, Baker, basically the whole D off because they havent lived up to your expectations, much like DJ?
As for LJ, yes he has done better. What is your point?
DJ is doing better than Darnold, Mayfield, Allen, and Rosen....and they are all in their second year. Oh and better than Haskins too.
Like Jones, he started 7 games and had more time to get ready for them. It wasn't pretty. I guess he learned a little after his rookie year.
Jones will improve after this rookie year on an awful team. I just don't get how you see Jones as a problem here. A lot of things wrong with this team. Jones isn't one of them.
He throws a beautiful ball. The Tate one hander was a great catch, but note the pass also. Just a gorgeous, Warren Moon level spiral.
I'd like to see him running the ball more - 10 or so planned runs a game.
I'd really like to see him and Barkley operating in Greg Roman's offense... Roman is a completely realistic head coaching candidate to pursue this offseason.
I'd really like to give you props for supporting Jones despite how clearly fed up you are with the rest of the Giants organization. Most people would have cognitive dissonance and wouldn't have the Cajones to have an honest take, while simultaneously being so down on the rest of the organization. Legit props, man.
turn-over machine in the league. Tt will only get worse if they do not get it fixed. He will be targeted. He took us right out of the game with his turn overs last night. We were playing decent before that.
RE: First thing he can do to start avoiding some turnovers...
turn-over machine in the league. Tt will only get worse if they do not get it fixed. He will be targeted. He took us right out of the game with his turn overs last night. We were playing decent before that.
I don't really understand what this means. How do you target it? Our Oline stinks and pass rushers do what they always try to do, sack and strip the ball.
How about fixing the real issue and not get him pounded on every drop back?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: For all the Jones doubters
Which QB from the last two drafts would you rather have ? Jones has looked better than any QB taken in the last 2 drafts, he's looked better than Eli did in his rookie year and he's done it all playing for a shit team. Some of his failures and the offense in general is the direct result of this putrid defense. When a defense can't get off the field, the offense is always playing from behind. That in itself is going to result in high risk plays, sacks and sack/fumbles. Yes, Jones' ball security is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but I'll take his performance against a very good team over what we've seen with Darnold, Baker or Haskins.
You never heard of Lamar Jackson??
Lamar Jackson plays for a good team with a conservative offense and is in his second year. Despite that Jones had a higher completion percentage than Jackson did in his rookie year and has more yards passing in 7 games than Jackson had in 16. Who else would you like to compare Jones too. ? Perhaps you'd like to remind us that Brady had a better rookie year than Jones.
Ravens have a much better defense and like you said, this is Jacksons second year, not first.
All he did last year was hand off, run himself, a few quick passes....then rely on the defense to win the game.
DJ and Lamar are the same age, by the way. Lamar just has a few more starts than Jones. If you think DJ has performed anywhere near Lamar, you are on crack.
You didnt answer my questions....are you ready to write Barkley, Sheppard, Baker, basically the whole D off because they havent lived up to your expectations, much like DJ?
As for LJ, yes he has done better. What is your point?
DJ is doing better than Darnold, Mayfield, Allen, and Rosen....and they are all in their second year. Oh and better than Haskins too.
i'm not writing anybody off, especially not DJ. I have hope for DJ, that he might develop into a franchise QB. But I'm not blind. Yes he has so far been better than most of the guys you mentioned. But he's still bad. They're bad and he's bad. Let's be honest. I don't care if he's 85% as bad as Sam Darnold. Bad is bad. A couple of these guys will flip the switch and be good. Being a little less bad than them does not mean DJ is the guy. There is a significant chance he will not develop into the great QB we need. People saying they are non concerned with DJ and he's not the problem, are talking out of their asses. DJ looks worse at this stage than a lot of QBs did and who aren't going to make it in the NFL, namely Mariota and Winston. I don't believe in lying to myself and I don't believe in wishful thinking. DJ has shined a bit, but the overall impression is inconclusive.
He throws a beautiful ball. The Tate one hander was a great catch, but note the pass also. Just a gorgeous, Warren Moon level spiral.
I'd like to see him running the ball more - 10 or so planned runs a game.
I'd really like to see him and Barkley operating in Greg Roman's offense... Roman is a completely realistic head coaching candidate to pursue this offseason.
I'd really like to give you props for supporting Jones despite how clearly fed up you are with the rest of the Giants organization. Most people would have cognitive dissonance and wouldn't have the Cajones to have an honest take, while simultaneously being so down on the rest of the organization. Legit props, man.
I try to call it as objectively as I can. If Gettleman and Shurmur turn it around I'll admit I was wrong, but at some point they have to start taking responsibility for the quality of football on the field.
I'm a the point I don't know what to think anymore. He's certainly
talented and has potential. But these fumbles and turnovers are beyond ridiculous. He talks about it every week but it still continues. What a shit show this team is.
Drew Brees had 38 INTs and fumbles in his first two seasons
as a starter (27 starts). Heck, he fumbles now more than he did when he was young.
This overreaction is what happens when people don't have a decent frame of reference or short memories about what most NFL QBs look like when they're rookies/young. I will admit I'm glad I wasn't on BBI when Eli was a rookie.
RE: Drew Brees had 38 INTs and fumbles in his first two seasons
as a starter (27 starts). Heck, he fumbles now more than he did when he was young.
This overreaction is what happens when people don't have a decent frame of reference or short memories about what most NFL QBs look like when they're rookies/young. I will admit I'm glad I wasn't on BBI when Eli was a rookie.
Thanks shockey for adding this great find. Unfortunately, only open minded people who are not either too emotional or too set in their ways can receive this nugget .
Which QB from the last two drafts would you rather have ? Jones has looked better than any QB taken in the last 2 drafts, he's looked better than Eli did in his rookie year and he's done it all playing for a shit team. Some of his failures and the offense in general is the direct result of this putrid defense. When a defense can't get off the field, the offense is always playing from behind. That in itself is going to result in high risk plays, sacks and sack/fumbles. Yes, Jones' ball security is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but I'll take his performance against a very good team over what we've seen with Darnold, Baker or Haskins.
Lamar Jackson?
RE: I'm a the point I don't know what to think anymore. He's certainly
talented and has potential. But these fumbles and turnovers are beyond ridiculous. He talks about it every week but it still continues. What a shit show this team is.
He had one turnover that meant anything. I dont count the interception nor the last play of the game when the ball got swatted out and game was over with. And that fumble was because he was trying to stretch out to get that first down while running. Oh, did you know he got more yards rushing than SB last night?
1. EDGE
2. Free safety
3. LB without Connelly
4. OL
5. Bona fide WR who can get separation (SS is done)
DJ has struggled a bit against excellent defenses like Pats, Vikes, and Cowboys, but it hasnt been that bad. Again, I hate to sound like a broken record, but he doesnt have a very good supporting cast we thought he would have. Shep is now out, Barkley has been effective, and the OL has been inconsistent. What do you expect him to do? But I agree he is averaging a fumble a game so he needs to work on holding onto to the ball when he about to pass.
Lamar Jackson is the best player from the last two drafts
It's a big step up in game speed, so they're learning all over again. As for his field vision, I think he does a decent job for young QB going to 2nd reads. It's too early to say for sure that he will be a success or a failure.
1) The QB has to be good
2) The Coach and the Coach's system have to be good.
3) The QB and Coach /Coach's system have to be an ideal match for one another
From what I can tell, Jones is good. Period. He has plenty of room for improvement, but he can play at an NFL level. In the right system with the right coach and supporting cast, he can be an all-star QB. He has shown me plenty to believe that about him.
Shurmur's system seems to be a good fit for Jones. They drafted Jones because he fit Shurmur's system, and some of Jones's success can be chalked up to fitting the system. So many people gave the Cards credit for drafting Murray because he was a perfect system-fit for Kingsbury, but you didn't hear the same credit given re: Jones.
All that said: The problem is Shurmur is not a good head coach and I don't think his system can cut it in the modern-day NFL. Now, it's not all black-and-white: I give credit to Shurmur for being a *decent* coordinator and his system has shown some bright spots since he's been able to start HIS QB (DJ). But he's just not going to cut it as a HC and I think we can find a better offensive mind than Shurmur who DJ will also match up well with.
If we replace the coach, we not only have to find a good one, we have to find the right one for Jones. This is not going to be easy. Not every system is great for every QB. We need a system and coach that will maximize Jones's abilities and talents. All that said, we have our QB, and that is the hardest part to find oftentimes. But it can be almost as difficult to find a great coach and not only a great coach but a perfect system-fit for our QB. The nice thing is I believe DJ is not a one-trick pony, he has NFL-level size, mobility, and can make all the throws, so this opens up a lot of possibilities, which is why I am happy he's our guy.
Lamar Jackson is great, but he also needed to be in the right system to thrive, and he found that in Baltimore. That system also NEEDS Lamar Jackson (or someone as special as him) to be successful.
Mahomes is great, but he also is helped tremendously by being in Andy Reid's system with a coach as great as Reid guiding him.
This is why it's so difficult to find the exact right situation and fit and it's never easy. But I like what we have in Jones, and to be honest I don't mind Shurmur's system for Jones. But I think we can do better and I don't think Shurmur is NFL *Head* coaching material.
RE: RE: I'm a the point I don't know what to think anymore. He's certainly
talented and has potential. But these fumbles and turnovers are beyond ridiculous. He talks about it every week but it still continues. What a shit show this team is.
He had one turnover that meant anything. I dont count the interception nor the last play of the game when the ball got swatted out and game was over with. And that fumble was because he was trying to stretch out to get that first down while running. Oh, did you know he got more yards rushing than SB last night?
Can't argue with anything you said other than these fumbles
have been something that have gone on since preseason. I 'm actually in the glad we got DJ corner. He's talented with great potential. But the sooner all these fumbles stop the sooner the critics will quiet down and he'll make the game a lot easier on himself and his team
Think about this with Jackson: he ran for more yards and TDs in college than Barkley did, and did it while also having the ball in his hands on pass plays as the QB. You know how many games he missed in his college career?
Think about this with Jackson: he ran for more yards and TDs in college than Barkley did, and did it while also having the ball in his hands on pass plays as the QB. You know how many games he missed in his college career?
Zero.
preach..
sure he might get hurt, anybody might, but the best player from the 2018 draft, in a landslide, is Lamar Jackson. I didn't like him coming out, or rather had no strong opinion. But now there is no doubt. It's not Nelson, not Barkley.. it's Lamar. Sorry if that hurts your feelings..
Jones ability to run coupled with Barkley should be very tough to stop for opposing defenses. This coaching staff certainly isnt capable of taking advantage of it.
RE: RE: RE: I'm a the point I don't know what to think anymore. He's certainly
talented and has potential. But these fumbles and turnovers are beyond ridiculous. He talks about it every week but it still continues. What a shit show this team is.
He had one turnover that meant anything. I dont count the interception nor the last play of the game when the ball got swatted out and game was over with. And that fumble was because he was trying to stretch out to get that first down while running. Oh, did you know he got more yards rushing than SB last night?
Can't argue with anything you said other than these fumbles
have been something that have gone on since preseason. I 'm actually in the glad we got DJ corner. He's talented with great potential. But the sooner all these fumbles stop the sooner the critics will quiet down and he'll make the game a lot easier on himself and his team
Do you remember when Tiki put the ball on the ground every game as well? He learned......
DJ will learn. He got hit a lot yesterday and actually didnt fumble getting hit in the pocket...So thats improvement.
why the fuck this genius head coach of ours decides to come out in shotgun, week after week, with Jones winging it all over. Choosing to be 1-dimensional with Saquon Barkley and a big run blocking OL.
I'd say it's the worst coaching I've ever seen - but it's still better than McAdoo and his 3 offensive plays. Get the OL down in 3 pt. stances, get Gates, Ellison & Penny on the field and make them stop Barkley, Gallman and whoever else we got over and over again. Build play action passes into these run plays - including creative ways to get Engram the ball.
We've seen none of this. It's almost like they're intentionally not using Barkley.
Think about this with Jackson: he ran for more yards and TDs in college than Barkley did, and did it while also having the ball in his hands on pass plays as the QB. You know how many games he missed in his college career?
Zero.
Exactly those who watch Lamar play know that similar to Russell Wilson defenders just aren't able to square him up when they tried him. He avoids the big hit and regularly ducks out of bounds
Is hes got 16 turnovers in 7 games. Extrapolated over a 16 game season, hed be on pace for 36-37 turnovers. That would be the 2nd most turnovers in a single season all time by a QB.
His pocket awareness/handling pressure and turnovers were knocks on him coming in (referencing Sys scouting report on this), and the two issues go hand in hand. You can say that some of the fumbles arent his fault, its the OL, which certainly has merit. But theres several times this season Ive seen him hold onto the ball too long, THEN start his throwing motion well after the danger point of the pocket collapsing, putting himself at risk for turnovers. I know the thought of him needing to pull the ball down and take MORE sacks is nauseating, but its better than the alternative.
People also want to blame the WRs for not getting separation, which also has merit, but I think theres more to it than that. It seems, to the untrained eye, that some of these turnovers which result from him holding onto the ball and starting his throws late, may be symptomatic of him moving through his progressions at a slow pace. That gives credence to the Sys other claim from his pre-draft write up, that he doesnt process coverage quick enough. Its especially startling given how simplified this offense seems to be with him under center, and what hes been asked to do (ie: pre-snap adjustments).
Now, admittedly, I dont know enough about playing the position to know if these are correctable issues, but if so, it needs to be a point of emphasis. I keep hearing, He doesnt make the same mistake twice, but I see him continually making these mistake. To make matters worse, this coaching staff hasnt exactly instilled a lot of confidence in their ability to coach up a player.
Im not damning the kid. He shows some great qualities, but for perspective, even the biggest Eli fan (🙋🏻♂️) will concede that he had an atrocious rookie year. Comparatively, however, Eli (only?) yielded 11 turnovers in 9 games his rookie year. Those who are writing this off as being just being a rookie, are severely underestimating how real of an issue this is.
All that being said, Im not a chicken-little type of guy. Im very much of the mindset that outside of the rare Mahommess, Lucks, or Watsons of the world, it takes, at minimum, 3 years to truly evaluate a QB. Im certainly not ready to hit the eject button. Im also completely open to the idea that Im off base on my assessment. Obviously Im rooting for him. I just dont think we should be anointing him as a bonafide franchise QB, when his only real solid game was his first game where there was no film on him. From what I can tell, the flaws are demonstrable, not at the typical rate of rookies, and need to be fixed if hes to be considered the future of the franchise.
back at Duke. cannot blame him. Weak OL, weak or always injured WRs who cannot get open or catch balls that hit them in the hands. Lousy defense and poor HC who looks confused much of the time.
I did not know what to expect when he was drafted,but,he has demonstrated the physical attributes and mental demeanor to be a really good QB.
The advanced statistics metrics bare this out.
Jones has been timed close to 20 mph on his runs only behind Lamar Jackson and Deshaun Watson.
He can make all the throws, he is accurate, with a quick strong release. His throws have been timed at 54 mph.
The mistakes he makes are correctable and with a better team around him he can be a franchise QB.
His receivers are quite ordinary and get no separation.
The average separation by the Giants receivers is less than 2 yards. Jones has the highest completion rate in the league on tight window throws. He has the most TDs on tight window throws.This is generally accepted as a predictor of future success.
Jones is in the top (3) in throwing under duress, so it is not surprising that he fumbles and has thrown interceptions. Jones throws 48% completions under duress and over 70% with a clean pocket. He has been sacked 31 times in 8 games.
With an average line and average receivers Jones would be producing on a consistent basis.
Some other notes about Jones, he is tough and willing to get his nose dirty.
He runs effectively and is a willing blocker.
I am not certain why the enmity that some Giant fans have shown Jones. What could they expect from a rookie QB on this team? Just think if the Giants had drafted Haskins, we would still have Eli playing.
The Giants are lucky that they have Daniel Jones he will be a significant reason for the Giants to become a good team.
Mike I know your not serous with this post and are just trying to rekindle the Eli should have gotten this entire year argument,
But when you ve seen what Jones brings to this offense compared to Eli, and start a post like this, you should understand it wont be take. Seriously
Yeah our WR even when they make plays are doing it in traffic. Often a CB draped over them with a S closing in. That's a recipe for INT especially since DJ doesn't have a rifle arm.
The contrast is Darnold who looks lost on the football field, something over never once saw or thought from Jones. Hes trying to do too much. Its a problem, but its fixable especially if we get some good players blocking for him.
Quote:
Which QB from the last two drafts would you rather have ? Jones has looked better than any QB taken in the last 2 drafts, he's looked better than Eli did in his rookie year and he's done it all playing for a shit team. Some of his failures and the offense in general is the direct result of this putrid defense. When a defense can't get off the field, the offense is always playing from behind. That in itself is going to result in high risk plays, sacks and sack/fumbles. Yes, Jones' ball security is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but I'll take his performance against a very good team over what we've seen with Darnold, Baker or Haskins.
You never heard of Lamar Jackson??
Quote:
In comment 14664960 Ron from Ninerland said:
Quote:
Which QB from the last two drafts would you rather have ? Jones has looked better than any QB taken in the last 2 drafts, he's looked better than Eli did in his rookie year and he's done it all playing for a shit team. Some of his failures and the offense in general is the direct result of this putrid defense. When a defense can't get off the field, the offense is always playing from behind. That in itself is going to result in high risk plays, sacks and sack/fumbles. Yes, Jones' ball security is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but I'll take his performance against a very good team over what we've seen with Darnold, Baker or Haskins.
You never heard of Lamar Jackson??
Lamar Jackson plays for a good team with a conservative offense and is in his second year. Despite that Jones had a higher completion percentage than Jackson did in his rookie year and has more yards passing in 7 games than Jackson had in 16. Who else would you like to compare Jones too. ? Perhaps you'd like to remind us that Brady had a better rookie year than Jones.
Ravens have a much better defense and like you said, this is Jacksons second year, not first.
All he did last year was hand off, run himself, a few quick passes....then rely on the defense to win the game.
You have to give the kid a break. Considering the shit show that he has been thrust into a rookie starter with below average o-line, weak coaches and play calling.
Rookies rarely shine, but I will be the first to admit that he has done a pretty decent job. The kid is earning his stripes. He deserves to be given at least a couple of seasons to sink or swim. He very well may turn out to be Tim Couch 2.0 but maybe he won't.
With more experience, and a better line, those fumbles will be cut down.
I hated the pick BTW. I wanted us to draft Jackson last year, or play Eli again this year, and end up with a top pick to take a QB next year. But Danny Dimes has impressed and shown signs that he could be a successful QB for the next decade+.
Quote:
In comment 14665040 AndyMilligan said:
Quote:
In comment 14664960 Ron from Ninerland said:
Quote:
Which QB from the last two drafts would you rather have ? Jones has looked better than any QB taken in the last 2 drafts, he's looked better than Eli did in his rookie year and he's done it all playing for a shit team. Some of his failures and the offense in general is the direct result of this putrid defense. When a defense can't get off the field, the offense is always playing from behind. That in itself is going to result in high risk plays, sacks and sack/fumbles. Yes, Jones' ball security is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but I'll take his performance against a very good team over what we've seen with Darnold, Baker or Haskins.
You never heard of Lamar Jackson??
Lamar Jackson plays for a good team with a conservative offense and is in his second year. Despite that Jones had a higher completion percentage than Jackson did in his rookie year and has more yards passing in 7 games than Jackson had in 16. Who else would you like to compare Jones too. ? Perhaps you'd like to remind us that Brady had a better rookie year than Jones.
Ravens have a much better defense and like you said, this is Jacksons second year, not first.
All he did last year was hand off, run himself, a few quick passes....then rely on the defense to win the game.
DJ and Lamar are the same age, by the way. Lamar just has a few more starts than Jones. If you think DJ has performed anywhere near Lamar, you are on crack.
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In comment 14665147 Ron from Ninerland said:
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In comment 14665040 AndyMilligan said:
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In comment 14664960 Ron from Ninerland said:
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Which QB from the last two drafts would you rather have ? Jones has looked better than any QB taken in the last 2 drafts, he's looked better than Eli did in his rookie year and he's done it all playing for a shit team. Some of his failures and the offense in general is the direct result of this putrid defense. When a defense can't get off the field, the offense is always playing from behind. That in itself is going to result in high risk plays, sacks and sack/fumbles. Yes, Jones' ball security is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but I'll take his performance against a very good team over what we've seen with Darnold, Baker or Haskins.
You never heard of Lamar Jackson??
Lamar Jackson plays for a good team with a conservative offense and is in his second year. Despite that Jones had a higher completion percentage than Jackson did in his rookie year and has more yards passing in 7 games than Jackson had in 16. Who else would you like to compare Jones too. ? Perhaps you'd like to remind us that Brady had a better rookie year than Jones.
Ravens have a much better defense and like you said, this is Jacksons second year, not first.
All he did last year was hand off, run himself, a few quick passes....then rely on the defense to win the game.
DJ and Lamar are the same age, by the way. Lamar just has a few more starts than Jones. If you think DJ has performed anywhere near Lamar, you are on crack.
You didnt answer my questions....are you ready to write Barkley, Sheppard, Baker, basically the whole D off because they havent lived up to your expectations, much like DJ?
As for LJ, yes he has done better. What is your point?
DJ is doing better than Darnold, Mayfield, Allen, and Rosen....and they are all in their second year. Oh and better than Haskins too.
He's had 4 years of pro coaching. It is not odd that he is ahead of some of the other qb's.
Like Jones, he started 7 games and had more time to get ready for them. It wasn't pretty. I guess he learned a little after his rookie year.
Jones will improve after this rookie year on an awful team. I just don't get how you see Jones as a problem here. A lot of things wrong with this team. Jones isn't one of them.
I'd like to see him running the ball more - 10 or so planned runs a game.
I'd really like to see him and Barkley operating in Greg Roman's offense... Roman is a completely realistic head coaching candidate to pursue this offseason.
I'd really like to give you props for supporting Jones despite how clearly fed up you are with the rest of the Giants organization. Most people would have cognitive dissonance and wouldn't have the Cajones to have an honest take, while simultaneously being so down on the rest of the organization. Legit props, man.
Shurmur needs to hit this home, or otherwise, put him on the bench.
That's how you get a guy to slide all the time.
Agreed, but man I love his desire to win! Like blocking on a reverse... Thank you for being so awesome but maybe we don't do that.
I don't really understand what this means. How do you target it? Our Oline stinks and pass rushers do what they always try to do, sack and strip the ball.
How about fixing the real issue and not get him pounded on every drop back?
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In comment 14665159 5BowlsSoon said:
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In comment 14665147 Ron from Ninerland said:
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In comment 14665040 AndyMilligan said:
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In comment 14664960 Ron from Ninerland said:
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Which QB from the last two drafts would you rather have ? Jones has looked better than any QB taken in the last 2 drafts, he's looked better than Eli did in his rookie year and he's done it all playing for a shit team. Some of his failures and the offense in general is the direct result of this putrid defense. When a defense can't get off the field, the offense is always playing from behind. That in itself is going to result in high risk plays, sacks and sack/fumbles. Yes, Jones' ball security is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but I'll take his performance against a very good team over what we've seen with Darnold, Baker or Haskins.
You never heard of Lamar Jackson??
Lamar Jackson plays for a good team with a conservative offense and is in his second year. Despite that Jones had a higher completion percentage than Jackson did in his rookie year and has more yards passing in 7 games than Jackson had in 16. Who else would you like to compare Jones too. ? Perhaps you'd like to remind us that Brady had a better rookie year than Jones.
Ravens have a much better defense and like you said, this is Jacksons second year, not first.
All he did last year was hand off, run himself, a few quick passes....then rely on the defense to win the game.
DJ and Lamar are the same age, by the way. Lamar just has a few more starts than Jones. If you think DJ has performed anywhere near Lamar, you are on crack.
You didnt answer my questions....are you ready to write Barkley, Sheppard, Baker, basically the whole D off because they havent lived up to your expectations, much like DJ?
As for LJ, yes he has done better. What is your point?
DJ is doing better than Darnold, Mayfield, Allen, and Rosen....and they are all in their second year. Oh and better than Haskins too.
i'm not writing anybody off, especially not DJ. I have hope for DJ, that he might develop into a franchise QB. But I'm not blind. Yes he has so far been better than most of the guys you mentioned. But he's still bad. They're bad and he's bad. Let's be honest. I don't care if he's 85% as bad as Sam Darnold. Bad is bad. A couple of these guys will flip the switch and be good. Being a little less bad than them does not mean DJ is the guy. There is a significant chance he will not develop into the great QB we need. People saying they are non concerned with DJ and he's not the problem, are talking out of their asses. DJ looks worse at this stage than a lot of QBs did and who aren't going to make it in the NFL, namely Mariota and Winston. I don't believe in lying to myself and I don't believe in wishful thinking. DJ has shined a bit, but the overall impression is inconclusive.
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He throws a beautiful ball. The Tate one hander was a great catch, but note the pass also. Just a gorgeous, Warren Moon level spiral.
I'd like to see him running the ball more - 10 or so planned runs a game.
I'd really like to see him and Barkley operating in Greg Roman's offense... Roman is a completely realistic head coaching candidate to pursue this offseason.
I'd really like to give you props for supporting Jones despite how clearly fed up you are with the rest of the Giants organization. Most people would have cognitive dissonance and wouldn't have the Cajones to have an honest take, while simultaneously being so down on the rest of the organization. Legit props, man.
I try to call it as objectively as I can. If Gettleman and Shurmur turn it around I'll admit I was wrong, but at some point they have to start taking responsibility for the quality of football on the field.
This overreaction is what happens when people don't have a decent frame of reference or short memories about what most NFL QBs look like when they're rookies/young. I will admit I'm glad I wasn't on BBI when Eli was a rookie.
This overreaction is what happens when people don't have a decent frame of reference or short memories about what most NFL QBs look like when they're rookies/young. I will admit I'm glad I wasn't on BBI when Eli was a rookie.
Thanks shockey for adding this great find. Unfortunately, only open minded people who are not either too emotional or too set in their ways can receive this nugget .
Lamar Jackson?
He had one turnover that meant anything. I dont count the interception nor the last play of the game when the ball got swatted out and game was over with. And that fumble was because he was trying to stretch out to get that first down while running. Oh, did you know he got more yards rushing than SB last night?
1. EDGE
2. Free safety
3. LB without Connelly
4. OL
5. Bona fide WR who can get separation (SS is done)
DJ has struggled a bit against excellent defenses like Pats, Vikes, and Cowboys, but it hasnt been that bad. Again, I hate to sound like a broken record, but he doesnt have a very good supporting cast we thought he would have. Shep is now out, Barkley has been effective, and the OL has been inconsistent. What do you expect him to do? But I agree he is averaging a fumble a game so he needs to work on holding onto to the ball when he about to pass.
That said, Barkley and Jones are something a competent coach should be able to work with.
If we had Greg Roman's offense here next year we might win 10 games.
Dude better learn to take care of his body b/c he takes a lot of hits.
1) The QB has to be good
2) The Coach and the Coach's system have to be good.
3) The QB and Coach /Coach's system have to be an ideal match for one another
From what I can tell, Jones is good. Period. He has plenty of room for improvement, but he can play at an NFL level. In the right system with the right coach and supporting cast, he can be an all-star QB. He has shown me plenty to believe that about him.
Shurmur's system seems to be a good fit for Jones. They drafted Jones because he fit Shurmur's system, and some of Jones's success can be chalked up to fitting the system. So many people gave the Cards credit for drafting Murray because he was a perfect system-fit for Kingsbury, but you didn't hear the same credit given re: Jones.
All that said: The problem is Shurmur is not a good head coach and I don't think his system can cut it in the modern-day NFL. Now, it's not all black-and-white: I give credit to Shurmur for being a *decent* coordinator and his system has shown some bright spots since he's been able to start HIS QB (DJ). But he's just not going to cut it as a HC and I think we can find a better offensive mind than Shurmur who DJ will also match up well with.
If we replace the coach, we not only have to find a good one, we have to find the right one for Jones. This is not going to be easy. Not every system is great for every QB. We need a system and coach that will maximize Jones's abilities and talents. All that said, we have our QB, and that is the hardest part to find oftentimes. But it can be almost as difficult to find a great coach and not only a great coach but a perfect system-fit for our QB. The nice thing is I believe DJ is not a one-trick pony, he has NFL-level size, mobility, and can make all the throws, so this opens up a lot of possibilities, which is why I am happy he's our guy.
Lamar Jackson is great, but he also needed to be in the right system to thrive, and he found that in Baltimore. That system also NEEDS Lamar Jackson (or someone as special as him) to be successful.
Mahomes is great, but he also is helped tremendously by being in Andy Reid's system with a coach as great as Reid guiding him.
This is why it's so difficult to find the exact right situation and fit and it's never easy. But I like what we have in Jones, and to be honest I don't mind Shurmur's system for Jones. But I think we can do better and I don't think Shurmur is NFL *Head* coaching material.
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talented and has potential. But these fumbles and turnovers are beyond ridiculous. He talks about it every week but it still continues. What a shit show this team is.
He had one turnover that meant anything. I dont count the interception nor the last play of the game when the ball got swatted out and game was over with. And that fumble was because he was trying to stretch out to get that first down while running. Oh, did you know he got more yards rushing than SB last night?
Can't argue with anything you said other than these fumbles
have been something that have gone on since preseason. I 'm actually in the glad we got DJ corner. He's talented with great potential. But the sooner all these fumbles stop the sooner the critics will quiet down and he'll make the game a lot easier on himself and his team
Zero.
Zero.
preach..
sure he might get hurt, anybody might, but the best player from the 2018 draft, in a landslide, is Lamar Jackson. I didn't like him coming out, or rather had no strong opinion. But now there is no doubt. It's not Nelson, not Barkley.. it's Lamar. Sorry if that hurts your feelings..
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In comment 14665537 Blue21 said:
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talented and has potential. But these fumbles and turnovers are beyond ridiculous. He talks about it every week but it still continues. What a shit show this team is.
He had one turnover that meant anything. I dont count the interception nor the last play of the game when the ball got swatted out and game was over with. And that fumble was because he was trying to stretch out to get that first down while running. Oh, did you know he got more yards rushing than SB last night?
Can't argue with anything you said other than these fumbles
have been something that have gone on since preseason. I 'm actually in the glad we got DJ corner. He's talented with great potential. But the sooner all these fumbles stop the sooner the critics will quiet down and he'll make the game a lot easier on himself and his team
Do you remember when Tiki put the ball on the ground every game as well? He learned......
DJ will learn. He got hit a lot yesterday and actually didnt fumble getting hit in the pocket...So thats improvement.
I'd say it's the worst coaching I've ever seen - but it's still better than McAdoo and his 3 offensive plays. Get the OL down in 3 pt. stances, get Gates, Ellison & Penny on the field and make them stop Barkley, Gallman and whoever else we got over and over again. Build play action passes into these run plays - including creative ways to get Engram the ball.
We've seen none of this. It's almost like they're intentionally not using Barkley.
But he also wouldn't be anywhere near the QB he is presently if He was being coached Shurmur and playing behind this OL.
That's why DG
Zero.
Exactly those who watch Lamar play know that similar to Russell Wilson defenders just aren't able to square him up when they tried him. He avoids the big hit and regularly ducks out of bounds
DG says a lot of dumb things. This is one of them. By year 3 you should know if you like a guy.
His pocket awareness/handling pressure and turnovers were knocks on him coming in (referencing Sys scouting report on this), and the two issues go hand in hand. You can say that some of the fumbles arent his fault, its the OL, which certainly has merit. But theres several times this season Ive seen him hold onto the ball too long, THEN start his throwing motion well after the danger point of the pocket collapsing, putting himself at risk for turnovers. I know the thought of him needing to pull the ball down and take MORE sacks is nauseating, but its better than the alternative.
People also want to blame the WRs for not getting separation, which also has merit, but I think theres more to it than that. It seems, to the untrained eye, that some of these turnovers which result from him holding onto the ball and starting his throws late, may be symptomatic of him moving through his progressions at a slow pace. That gives credence to the Sys other claim from his pre-draft write up, that he doesnt process coverage quick enough. Its especially startling given how simplified this offense seems to be with him under center, and what hes been asked to do (ie: pre-snap adjustments).
Now, admittedly, I dont know enough about playing the position to know if these are correctable issues, but if so, it needs to be a point of emphasis. I keep hearing, He doesnt make the same mistake twice, but I see him continually making these mistake. To make matters worse, this coaching staff hasnt exactly instilled a lot of confidence in their ability to coach up a player.
Im not damning the kid. He shows some great qualities, but for perspective, even the biggest Eli fan (🙋🏻♂️) will concede that he had an atrocious rookie year. Comparatively, however, Eli (only?) yielded 11 turnovers in 9 games his rookie year. Those who are writing this off as being just being a rookie, are severely underestimating how real of an issue this is.
All that being said, Im not a chicken-little type of guy. Im very much of the mindset that outside of the rare Mahommess, Lucks, or Watsons of the world, it takes, at minimum, 3 years to truly evaluate a QB. Im certainly not ready to hit the eject button. Im also completely open to the idea that Im off base on my assessment. Obviously Im rooting for him. I just dont think we should be anointing him as a bonafide franchise QB, when his only real solid game was his first game where there was no film on him. From what I can tell, the flaws are demonstrable, not at the typical rate of rookies, and need to be fixed if hes to be considered the future of the franchise.