the coordinators are fired (I think that's a very likely scenario), who would be the most ideal candidates at this point, and then the most realistic candidates?
The problem here is Shurmur has horrific track record, unlike Tom Coughlin who had taken both the Jaguars and Giants to the playoffs. Shurmur winning percentage is horrific, worse than Handley and McAdoo.
I'd clean house if they go this route. What's the upside to keeping Shurmur?
Is out. He has to show improvement over last year. He wont. Schedule is tough the rest of the year. Players to be FA next year will make business decisions the rest of this year.
Yes another half-assed disorganizational move like Â
but he's halfway through his second season, it's time to show results, and the results aren't showing up. I cut the offense some slack for having a rookie QB doing rookie QB things, but that's not the whole problem on offense. The defense is the same mess it always seems to be, year after goddam year. It's depressing.
I'm running out of patience with this regime and this organization. Give me something to get excited about, guys, or go away.
Coughlin was a proven winner, a championship-level assistant with Parcells and the Giants had wanted him for years and years. They were willing to give him every chance to succeed.
What is Shurmur? A lifetime loser, a guy they settled on following a set of criteria defined by the complete train wreck of a coach they felt forced to fire early.
That beings said, Mara is such a predictable below average owner and he will run his playbook chasing the success of the past. Same as he did with Coughlin/Reese/Eli/etc.
Coughlin was a proven winner, a championship-level assistant with Parcells and the Giants had wanted him for years and years. They were willing to give him every chance to succeed.
What is Shurmur? A lifetime loser, a guy they settled on following a set of criteria defined by the complete train wreck of a coach they felt forced to fire early.
That beings said, Mara is such a predictable below average owner and he will run his playbook chasing the success of the past. Same as he did with Coughlin/Reese/Eli/etc.
Fully agree. Coughlin had already one the NFC East and was in the playoffs twice. He was also coaching against Reid, Parcells and Gibbs. If Mara uses that as a template I hope Tisch fires Mara.
I just don't see any scenario that Shurmur will be here next year unless he finds a way of winning at least 3 more games... And that's not gonna happen. I'm almost praying for a loss to the Jets, but that goes against my fandom. If we do lose to the Jets he is as good we gone.... Book that! Winning is hard in the NFL.... Almost impossible when Shurmur is your head coach.
this is a very likely scenario. John Mara may follow his father's footsteps in 2006.
That said, if you were a rising OC or DC, would you want to sign here with Shurmur being on such shaky ground?
As mentioned by madgiantscow above, I would think it would be the quickest way to consideration as a HC. An OC wouldn't want to be here as Shurmur is the defacto OC. But if Pat was stripped of play-calling duties and the OC is allowed full autonomy to implement their own playbook, then I could see it as attractive. A DC should be eager to take over. With the talent on the defensive side, we should not be that bad. The bar is set low. A DC with an eye towards a HC role only needs to demonstrate middle of the pack consistency. Around here, that would pass for the '85 Bears. It's been a really long time since defense and the Giants were synonymous.
Shurmur will be here. He has a 5 year contract. No way they Â
It isn’t like last year where they finished respectably.
There is no element that looks even passable.
I am only partly laughing when I say that linebacker is the only position showing improvement, because Golden is doing his job and Mayo looks like he can be a decent backup next year.
They need to get the ball to Barkley in space. He needs touches. It sounds crazy but Barkley needs to be the first option on every pass play.
Yeah, I get it, Shurmur runs his own offense. However, if given the edict to hire a true OC, Gruden runs a QB friendly system and is very knowledgeable about the NFC East.
I don't think there can be any chance they allow Shurmur to continue to call plays and remain HC. Very few Head Coaches can do it well, and Shurmur needs to focus on the game and whole team more.
Gruden needs to rebuild his resume. What a better way to do it than to work with a 2nd year QB, and get to stick it to your former employer twice a year?
Yeah, I get it, Shurmur runs his own offense. However, if given the edict to hire a true OC, Gruden runs a QB friendly system and is very knowledgeable about the NFC East.
I don't think there can be any chance they allow Shurmur to continue to call plays and remain HC. Very few Head Coaches can do it well, and Shurmur needs to focus on the game and whole team more.
Gruden needs to rebuild his resume. What a better way to do it than to work with a 2nd year QB, and get to stick it to your former employer twice a year?
So, Jones will have to learn 3 different offenses in 3 years then, because Shurmur and his staff will be fired after 2020 in that scenario.
Yeah, I get it, Shurmur runs his own offense. However, if given the edict to hire a true OC, Gruden runs a QB friendly system and is very knowledgeable about the NFC East.
I don't think there can be any chance they allow Shurmur to continue to call plays and remain HC. Very few Head Coaches can do it well, and Shurmur needs to focus on the game and whole team more.
Gruden needs to rebuild his resume. What a better way to do it than to work with a 2nd year QB, and get to stick it to your former employer twice a year?
So, Jones will have to learn 3 different offenses in 3 years then, because Shurmur and his staff will be fired after 2020 in that scenario.
They can't/wouldn't go into that decision believing it will fail. They have to believe any moves they make will help the team to win, thus negating the thought of terminating Shurmur.
pivot point offseason. The talent base has to increase significantly again regardless of whose coach. Several FA moves and draft picks will be needed to increase the talent level and depth quality.
In terms of coaches it comes down to conviction and what the eye test tells you on what the coaches have done or aren’t doing.
I don’t see a team that is really well prepared, organized and clean in its execution outside of specials. The OL really just is a mess still in how it plays functionally as a unit in the run game and that it’s got turnstiles at tackle positions. I don’t see how you can keep the OL coach into next year. Hunter has not done a good job coaching and preparing or adjusting.
Jones development to me is questionable as I don’t know what Shula or Shurmur are doing to help him individually or schematically. I think he would benefit from a QB coach who played QB and can work on awareness and fundamentals in the pocket. Shurmurs decisions and futile efforts on in game adjustments leave lot to be desired.
On defense, I’m just kind of disappointed in Bettcher and I think that’s almost a definite there’s a new DC here next year. Regardless of the talent I don’t think you can excuse some of the glaring problems in terms of game planning and adjustments here.
First guy to get fired will be Hal Hunter. OL has been atrocious.
They need to bring in a new OC- someone who can figure out how to use Saquon/Engram.
Betcher and the defense has been pitiful. But...I think Betcher is back. The Giants have invested al ot into finding players to fit his scheme (Lawrence, Peppers, Williams, Baker). Think they give him one more shot rather than scraping everything and starting over. The defense has played a bit better over the last 5 or 6 weeks. The talent level is also really low.
Yeah, I get it, Shurmur runs his own offense. However, if given the edict to hire a true OC, Gruden runs a QB friendly system and is very knowledgeable about the NFC East.
I don't think there can be any chance they allow Shurmur to continue to call plays and remain HC. Very few Head Coaches can do it well, and Shurmur needs to focus on the game and whole team more.
Gruden needs to rebuild his resume. What a better way to do it than to work with a 2nd year QB, and get to stick it to your former employer twice a year?
Gruden would be high on my wishlist for OC. It might also help lure Bill Callahan also to take over as the OL coach.
...interesting question, but IMO a little besides the point since the odds are very great that Pat Shurmur will be fired at the end of this season.
Based on the remaining games, I see our Head Coach ending up -- at best -- with a career record of 19-46 (.292 winning percentage), at which time he will be shown the door.
After that, Pat Shurmur will never get another sniff at an NFL Head Coaching position.
Shurmur another year and replace the coordinators he needs to give playcalling up to the new OC and the DC needs to be an absolute hit. And he needs an Asst HC or some sort of game manager. Or maybe they should just replace him as well.
Yeah, I get it, Shurmur runs his own offense. However, if given the edict to hire a true OC, Gruden runs a QB friendly system and is very knowledgeable about the NFC East.
I don't think there can be any chance they allow Shurmur to continue to call plays and remain HC. Very few Head Coaches can do it well, and Shurmur needs to focus on the game and whole team more.
Gruden needs to rebuild his resume. What a better way to do it than to work with a 2nd year QB, and get to stick it to your former employer twice a year?
So, Jones will have to learn 3 different offenses in 3 years then, because Shurmur and his staff will be fired after 2020 in that scenario.
What about Mike Shula as interim coach if Giants parts way with Shurmur.
Jone is familiar with him as is Shula with Jones.
So, Danny doesn’t need to learn another offense just tweak what he knows.
Thoughts...
Yeah, I get it, Shurmur runs his own offense. However, if given the edict to hire a true OC, Gruden runs a QB friendly system and is very knowledgeable about the NFC East.
I don't think there can be any chance they allow Shurmur to continue to call plays and remain HC. Very few Head Coaches can do it well, and Shurmur needs to focus on the game and whole team more.
Gruden needs to rebuild his resume. What a better way to do it than to work with a 2nd year QB, and get to stick it to your former employer twice a year?
So, Jones will have to learn 3 different offenses in 3 years then, because Shurmur and his staff will be fired after 2020 in that scenario.
What about Mike Shula as interim coach if Giants parts way with Shurmur.
Jone is familiar with him as is Shula with Jones.
So, Danny doesn’t need to learn another offense just tweak what he knows.
Thoughts...
name ONE coach that’s here, who had any kind of positive performance from his past resume. (Bettcher does but AZ looks like an aberration). No reason to retain anyone here. They will because John Mara is too conservative, too loyal and too scared to admit they screwed up- again.
Terps is right. This shouldn’t be that hard a decision for Mara. But he has NEVER shown he can make it. If Shurmur gets canned I will be absolutely stunned.
name ONE coach that’s here, who had any kind of positive performance from his past resume. (Bettcher does but AZ looks like an aberration). No reason to retain anyone here. They will because John Mara is too conservative, too loyal and too scared to admit they screwed up- again.
Terps is right. This shouldn’t be that hard a decision for Mara. But he has NEVER shown he can make it. If Shurmur gets canned I will be absolutely stunned.
I get your overall point, but there is only a single coach out of this regime that I would like see retained and that is Thomas McGaughey - Special Teams.
10-6 for six straight seasons just to get to a .500 career record!
Exactly.
Every time I read someone saying "Shurmur needs to X or Y to save his job" I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. How can his job possibly be saved at this point?
That said, if you were a rising OC or DC, would you want to sign here with Shurmur being on such shaky ground?
The problem here is Shurmur has horrific track record, unlike Tom Coughlin who had taken both the Jaguars and Giants to the playoffs. Shurmur winning percentage is horrific, worse than Handley and McAdoo.
I'd clean house if they go this route. What's the upside to keeping Shurmur?
There are only so many NFL OC and DC jobs out there.
Plus, it worked out pretty good for MacAdoo.
Quote:
are right on
Shurmur winning percentage is horrific, worse than Handley and McAdoo.
Pretty much worse than anyone not named Hue Jackson, Steve Spagnuolo, and Gus Bradley.
I'm running out of patience with this regime and this organization. Give me something to get excited about, guys, or go away.
That said, if you were a rising OC or DC, would you want to sign here with Shurmur being on such shaky ground?
I doubt this. Shurmur ain’t Coughlin.
I doubt this. Shurmur ain’t Coughlin.
There is some merit to this, I think.
Coughlin was a proven winner, a championship-level assistant with Parcells and the Giants had wanted him for years and years. They were willing to give him every chance to succeed.
What is Shurmur? A lifetime loser, a guy they settled on following a set of criteria defined by the complete train wreck of a coach they felt forced to fire early.
That beings said, Mara is such a predictable below average owner and he will run his playbook chasing the success of the past. Same as he did with Coughlin/Reese/Eli/etc.
Quote:
I doubt this. Shurmur ain’t Coughlin.
There is some merit to this, I think.
Coughlin was a proven winner, a championship-level assistant with Parcells and the Giants had wanted him for years and years. They were willing to give him every chance to succeed.
What is Shurmur? A lifetime loser, a guy they settled on following a set of criteria defined by the complete train wreck of a coach they felt forced to fire early.
That beings said, Mara is such a predictable below average owner and he will run his playbook chasing the success of the past. Same as he did with Coughlin/Reese/Eli/etc.
Fully agree. Coughlin had already one the NFC East and was in the playoffs twice. He was also coaching against Reid, Parcells and Gibbs. If Mara uses that as a template I hope Tisch fires Mara.
That said, if you were a rising OC or DC, would you want to sign here with Shurmur being on such shaky ground?
maybe if you wanted to be on a fast track to the head coach of the NYG.
Pat gets fired mid-season and all of the sudden you are the interm head coach.
That said, if you were a rising OC or DC, would you want to sign here with Shurmur being on such shaky ground?
As mentioned by madgiantscow above, I would think it would be the quickest way to consideration as a HC. An OC wouldn't want to be here as Shurmur is the defacto OC. But if Pat was stripped of play-calling duties and the OC is allowed full autonomy to implement their own playbook, then I could see it as attractive. A DC should be eager to take over. With the talent on the defensive side, we should not be that bad. The bar is set low. A DC with an eye towards a HC role only needs to demonstrate middle of the pack consistency. Around here, that would pass for the '85 Bears. It's been a really long time since defense and the Giants were synonymous.
We need a winner first and formost
From rumblings, Bettcher's job is far from safe..
From rumblings, Bettcher's job is far from safe..
Thanks for the info. I suspect Shurmur is safe, but am hoping that he is stripped of the play-calling duties at a minimum. Bettcher should be gone.
There is no element that looks even passable.
I am only partly laughing when I say that linebacker is the only position showing improvement, because Golden is doing his job and Mayo looks like he can be a decent backup next year.
They need to get the ball to Barkley in space. He needs touches. It sounds crazy but Barkley needs to be the first option on every pass play.
I don't tho k it's beyo d the realm of possible that we are looking for a new HC.
From rumblings, Bettcher's job is far from safe..
Then we're locked in for 5-11 in 2020, and Mara remains lost.
The scenario I can see Shurmur returning is if they go 6-10 (maybe 5-11) where the “arrow is pointing up” talk with start again.
The issue is, with games against NYJ, Mia & Wsh it’s not impossible.
The scenario I can see Shurmur returning is if they go 6-10 (maybe 5-11) where the “arrow is pointing up” talk with start again.
The issue is, with games against NYJ, Mia & Wsh it’s not impossible.
Fans are pretty gullible. Last December we had posters preaching optimism based on the offense later in the season.
PS will be no different.
I don't think there can be any chance they allow Shurmur to continue to call plays and remain HC. Very few Head Coaches can do it well, and Shurmur needs to focus on the game and whole team more.
Gruden needs to rebuild his resume. What a better way to do it than to work with a 2nd year QB, and get to stick it to your former employer twice a year?
PS will be no different.
...but you are cheering for Jones to progress in year 2 ...correct?
I don't think there can be any chance they allow Shurmur to continue to call plays and remain HC. Very few Head Coaches can do it well, and Shurmur needs to focus on the game and whole team more.
Gruden needs to rebuild his resume. What a better way to do it than to work with a 2nd year QB, and get to stick it to your former employer twice a year?
So, Jones will have to learn 3 different offenses in 3 years then, because Shurmur and his staff will be fired after 2020 in that scenario.
Quote:
Yeah, I get it, Shurmur runs his own offense. However, if given the edict to hire a true OC, Gruden runs a QB friendly system and is very knowledgeable about the NFC East.
I don't think there can be any chance they allow Shurmur to continue to call plays and remain HC. Very few Head Coaches can do it well, and Shurmur needs to focus on the game and whole team more.
Gruden needs to rebuild his resume. What a better way to do it than to work with a 2nd year QB, and get to stick it to your former employer twice a year?
So, Jones will have to learn 3 different offenses in 3 years then, because Shurmur and his staff will be fired after 2020 in that scenario.
They can't/wouldn't go into that decision believing it will fail. They have to believe any moves they make will help the team to win, thus negating the thought of terminating Shurmur.
In terms of coaches it comes down to conviction and what the eye test tells you on what the coaches have done or aren’t doing.
I don’t see a team that is really well prepared, organized and clean in its execution outside of specials. The OL really just is a mess still in how it plays functionally as a unit in the run game and that it’s got turnstiles at tackle positions. I don’t see how you can keep the OL coach into next year. Hunter has not done a good job coaching and preparing or adjusting.
Jones development to me is questionable as I don’t know what Shula or Shurmur are doing to help him individually or schematically. I think he would benefit from a QB coach who played QB and can work on awareness and fundamentals in the pocket. Shurmurs decisions and futile efforts on in game adjustments leave lot to be desired.
On defense, I’m just kind of disappointed in Bettcher and I think that’s almost a definite there’s a new DC here next year. Regardless of the talent I don’t think you can excuse some of the glaring problems in terms of game planning and adjustments here.
First guy to get fired will be Hal Hunter. OL has been atrocious.
They need to bring in a new OC- someone who can figure out how to use Saquon/Engram.
Betcher and the defense has been pitiful. But...I think Betcher is back. The Giants have invested al ot into finding players to fit his scheme (Lawrence, Peppers, Williams, Baker). Think they give him one more shot rather than scraping everything and starting over. The defense has played a bit better over the last 5 or 6 weeks. The talent level is also really low.
I don't think there can be any chance they allow Shurmur to continue to call plays and remain HC. Very few Head Coaches can do it well, and Shurmur needs to focus on the game and whole team more.
Gruden needs to rebuild his resume. What a better way to do it than to work with a 2nd year QB, and get to stick it to your former employer twice a year?
Gruden would be high on my wishlist for OC. It might also help lure Bill Callahan also to take over as the OL coach.
...interesting question, but IMO a little besides the point since the odds are very great that Pat Shurmur will be fired at the end of this season.
Based on the remaining games, I see our Head Coach ending up -- at best -- with a career record of 19-46 (.292 winning percentage), at which time he will be shown the door.
After that, Pat Shurmur will never get another sniff at an NFL Head Coaching position.
Eff it, bring in Rex Ryan!!!!
Quote:
Yeah, I get it, Shurmur runs his own offense. However, if given the edict to hire a true OC, Gruden runs a QB friendly system and is very knowledgeable about the NFC East.
I don't think there can be any chance they allow Shurmur to continue to call plays and remain HC. Very few Head Coaches can do it well, and Shurmur needs to focus on the game and whole team more.
Gruden needs to rebuild his resume. What a better way to do it than to work with a 2nd year QB, and get to stick it to your former employer twice a year?
So, Jones will have to learn 3 different offenses in 3 years then, because Shurmur and his staff will be fired after 2020 in that scenario.
What about Mike Shula as interim coach if Giants parts way with Shurmur.
Jone is familiar with him as is Shula with Jones.
So, Danny doesn’t need to learn another offense just tweak what he knows.
Thoughts...
Quote:
Yeah, I get it, Shurmur runs his own offense. However, if given the edict to hire a true OC, Gruden runs a QB friendly system and is very knowledgeable about the NFC East.
I don't think there can be any chance they allow Shurmur to continue to call plays and remain HC. Very few Head Coaches can do it well, and Shurmur needs to focus on the game and whole team more.
Gruden needs to rebuild his resume. What a better way to do it than to work with a 2nd year QB, and get to stick it to your former employer twice a year?
So, Jones will have to learn 3 different offenses in 3 years then, because Shurmur and his staff will be fired after 2020 in that scenario.
What about Mike Shula as interim coach if Giants parts way with Shurmur.
Jone is familiar with him as is Shula with Jones.
So, Danny doesn’t need to learn another offense just tweak what he knows.
Thoughts...
Terps is right. This shouldn’t be that hard a decision for Mara. But he has NEVER shown he can make it. If Shurmur gets canned I will be absolutely stunned.
Terps is right. This shouldn’t be that hard a decision for Mara. But he has NEVER shown he can make it. If Shurmur gets canned I will be absolutely stunned.
I get your overall point, but there is only a single coach out of this regime that I would like see retained and that is Thomas McGaughey - Special Teams.
Exactly.
Every time I read someone saying "Shurmur needs to X or Y to save his job" I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. How can his job possibly be saved at this point?