Dave Gettleman was all about "building from the inside out" and the now infamous Hog Mollies comments (which is starting to get into "The Duke" territory, endearing if you win but annoying when we're this pile of dung.)
At this point, DG paid for Solder, Drafted Hernandez, traded for Zeitler, and brought in Remmers. Halapio has been re-signed twice by DG.
When made, most of these moves were considered perhaps not great, but at least getting us better players than what we had. At the time Zeitler was seen as a good pickup for the OL by almost everyone. Remmers this summer was seen as stopgap but a solid journeyman if healthy. Hernandez a road grader with a mean streak who would develop. Solder was perhaps overpaid, but the best available LT we could get and certainly better than Flowers. Some felt a bad value, but few thought "he's going to be Flowers level horrible!"
But I continue to see a line that looks WORSE than the sum of its parts. Each move should have made us incrementally better, but the OL still sucks terribly. Zeitler may be banged up, but I'm not seeing the rash of injuries we sometimes get at a position.
So, I'd really like to know what DG thinks. One of 3 things has to be true here:
1) He did a poor job evaluating these guys
2) The coaches are doing a poor job of coaching them (scheme, technique, motivation, communication, getting the most out of them)
3) All of the above
One or two misses, I think DG puts on himself. I think Omameh was like that, DG cut bait pretty quick. But I wonder if DG is getting to the point where THIS many misses, with guys that played at least average elsewhere, seems more on coaching. Which is weird because Shurmur WAS an OL player. And if DG sees this to be the case, what does he do about it? Is the answer more new players or new coaching? (I presume we always will add more players, but how much to invest. If Zeitler, Solder, and Remmers came here and looked crappy, how much more FA money do we want to invest if talent is not the main issue?)
It still doesn't explain how every lineman seems to have regressed as a player.
It still doesn't explain how every lineman seems to have regressed as a player.
It's a mystery.
I think he'd say I can't believe, given the track records of these players, we would be this bad and regressed so much.
Is it the players, or scheme?
I'm falling off the Shurmur wagon, but can't believe scheme is the culprit.
DJ doesn't call protection...
Halapio does. That has been one of my major beefs with Halapio.
He's mentioned nowhere near as much as he should be, and it's to the point I wonder if I made him up in my head. What else could explain the simultaneous regression of all the ol? It's not even like they're getting better as they play more together.
You look at Scarnecchia and it doesn't matter who he puts out there, it's insane. There's no reason he should be here next year. What is the downside in replacing him??
They need to go all in for a top offensive line coach this offseason. Bill Callahan is at the top of my list. I wish they would call Russ Grimm to try to lure him out of retirement. I still don't know why they didn't make an offer to Mike Munchak last year. He's the second best OL coach in football and he was free to sign anywhere but the Giants didn't show any interest despite having Hal Hunter as the OL coach. That's alarming to me.
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They are not calling out protection well.
DJ doesn't call protection...
Halapio does. That has been one of my major beefs with Halapio.
But you can't absolve the quarterback; line calls are not the same as setting protection.
The QB is going to set protection based on big picture (identifying MIKE, blitzes showing, back protecting, etc.) and the C will make the line calls/adjustments based on the MIKE ID and the protection set.
There are times I think DJ has a bit too much on his plate, and he's missing things that he can probably check out of, or change protection into, to avoid free rushers, especially off the edge. You aren't counting on your center to see those things and make calls on that.
In a week or two I would insert Nick Gates or Chad Slade at RT. Remmers is clearly not going to be back and they need to see if either of these two can surprise. Gates was the biggest surprise of camp for me as he looked solid at both guard and tackle in the preseason.
How hard is it to understand that when DG took over this team it needed 20 new starters including a new franchise QB. So far he's got some pieces and not others. That shouldn't be surprising. He's has some guys who seem like hits (Lawrence, Barkley, Jones) and a some guys who don't, (Solder, Peppers)and some guys we just don't know about yet. Is that a surprise a year and a half in?
Our offensive line, we all know, has a hard time reading blitzes, stunts, loops, holding blocks, etc. They need some upside. I have complete confidence Gettleman will address at least the right tackle position and either center/left tackle or both.
Would anyone think otherwise? There's no way Gettleman is happy with the OL play.
It still doesn't explain how every lineman seems to have regressed as a player.
Hal Hunter
It is what surprised me the most. Pat's been in the league for a long time. He certainly should have a network of colleagues that he could have tapped into. But instead, Hal gets the call.
yep, every great coach had amazing assistants. Shurmur has none, the ST coach is the most impressive and Gettlemen hired him not Shurmur,
He's mentioned nowhere near as much as he should be, and it's to the point I wonder if I made him up in my head. What else could explain the simultaneous regression of all the ol? It's not even like they're getting better as they play more together.
You look at Scarnecchia and it doesn't matter who he puts out there, it's insane. There's no reason he should be here next year. What is the downside in replacing him??
This guy’s a loser. Amazing how they’ve assembled a staff entirely filled with losers. Seriously, have any of these coaches won at any level?
...both sides of the ball.
Pat Shurmur and his illustrious staff are gone at the end of this season.
And if Gettleman doesn't fix the line of scrimmage by the end of next season, he will follow Shurmur out the door one year later.
They need to go all in for a top offensive line coach this offseason. Bill Callahan is at the top of my list. I wish they would call Russ Grimm to try to lure him out of retirement. I still don't know why they didn't make an offer to Mike Munchak last year. He's the second best OL coach in football and he was free to sign anywhere but the Giants didn't show any interest despite having Hal Hunter as the OL coach. That's alarming to me.
The repeated mistake the Giants make in sticking with the familiar (who has failed miserably over and over( instead of bringing in a well-respected and highly qualified “stranger”) seems to be this organization’s greatest downfall and it seems to be a flaw that rears its ugly head from top to bottom in all parts of the franchise. The idea that “the giant way” will always be best, when I don’t know if anyone even knows what that means anymore. Why can’t Mike Munchak be part of the “Giant way”? Does every coach have to start as the team water boy in 1981 just to get/keep a coaching job?
So, does DG believe he brought in deficient talent, but saw it as better but still flawed so he’s not surprised? Or does he think the guys he got SHOULD be doing better so he’s got to be pretty pissed at someone - Shurmur, Hal, both because this OL’s play makes him, Mr Hog Mollie who drafted a RB and QB at the top look like shit as neither can perform as well as possible behind this OL.
When do we realize is not the players? How many years or decades will it take?
They need to go all in for a top offensive line coach this offseason. Bill Callahan is at the top of my list. I wish they would call Russ Grimm to try to lure him out of retirement. I still don't know why they didn't make an offer to Mike Munchak last year. He's the second best OL coach in football and he was free to sign anywhere but the Giants didn't show any interest despite having Hal Hunter as the OL coach. That's alarming to me.
I've been pounding away at this for basically a year. I just don't see why Hunter was hired and, now, why he's still in the job. A horrible hire.
I do think it's likely more the talent, which is an indictment on DG's evaluation. But Hunter seems to have done nothing material to further develop what we have...
They need to go all in for a top offensive line coach this offseason. Bill Callahan is at the top of my list. I wish they would call Russ Grimm to try to lure him out of retirement. I still don't know why they didn't make an offer to Mike Munchak last year. He's the second best OL coach in football and he was free to sign anywhere but the Giants didn't show any interest despite having Hal Hunter as the OL coach. That's alarming to me.
Agree 1000%.
Trouble is Shurmur hired Hunter.
To get rid ofHunter you have to get rid ofShurmur which isn't such a bad idea.
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Why he was hired in the first place blows my mind. He was the OL coach of a line that gave up over 60 sacks in a season. Take a look at the line and try to name one player that has improved over the past two years? They've invested money (Solder, Zeiter) and a 2nd round pick in the line and it's still among the league's worst.
They need to go all in for a top offensive line coach this offseason. Bill Callahan is at the top of my list. I wish they would call Russ Grimm to try to lure him out of retirement. I still don't know why they didn't make an offer to Mike Munchak last year. He's the second best OL coach in football and he was free to sign anywhere but the Giants didn't show any interest despite having Hal Hunter as the OL coach. That's alarming to me.
Agree 1000%.
Trouble is Shurmur hired Hunter.
To get rid ofHunter you have to get rid ofShurmur which isn't such a bad idea.
+1
When do we realize is not the players? How many years or decades will it take?
Maybe you've been living underground too long?
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They are not calling out protection well.
DJ doesn't call protection...
Halapio does. That has been one of my major beefs with Halapio.
I mentioned this all offseason, and people just ignored it. Halapio is not an NFL Center - regardless of his blocking prowess - because he is unable to identify basic blocking principles.
It is also incredible to me that people here simply went with what Shurmur and Gettleman preached in the offseason about these guys because they were "football people". Am I entitled to call Gettleman "DSG" yet?
So, does DG believe he brought in deficient talent, but saw it as better but still flawed so he’s not surprised? Or does he think the guys he got SHOULD be doing better so he’s got to be pretty pissed at someone - Shurmur, Hal, both because this OL’s play makes him, Mr Hog Mollie who drafted a RB and QB at the top look like shit as neither can perform as well as possible behind this OL.
They need to go all in for a top offensive line coach this offseason. Bill Callahan is at the top of my list. I wish they would call Russ Grimm to try to lure him out of retirement. I still don't know why they didn't make an offer to Mike Munchak last year. He's the second best OL coach in football and he was free to sign anywhere but the Giants didn't show any interest despite having Hal Hunter as the OL coach. That's alarming to me.
This x1000000000
If Hal Hunter isn’t gone at least as part of this team’s yearly half measures then God help us all.
He probably felt like the unit was good enough to get by with until he could bring in younger guys, but they've been really bad. Solder's been bad, but Remmers is absolutely awful. He was a low-risk signing, but DG has to get a replacement ASAP.
he wanted to be in Denver for family reasons
the guy looks like he's forgotten how to play football. its coaching. our OL can't be this fuckin bad. the players can't be this terrible. in fact, we've gone through how many configurations of an OL in 2 years? all terrible?
it makes no sense.
the guy looks like he's forgotten how to play football. its coaching. our OL can't be this fuckin bad. the players can't be this terrible. in fact, we've gone through how many configurations of an OL in 2 years? all terrible?
it makes no sense.
This!
Unfortunately his one big FA acquisition was Solder to help rebuild the line. It's not working out. The contract probably dictates we ride it out with him until after the 2020 season. maybe we can move him off the blindside if we can find the right players in the Draft and FA this coming ooffseason.