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Yes...Jones is LOSING Games for The Giants

Rafflee : 11/6/2019 8:06 am
He has a lot of help in that, but this is a league of Assignments and Effort and Mistakes. He's making lot's of Mistakes...too much trading 3 spectacular plays for one error. Too Much Contact...I'm referring to the contact that is under his control and also the contact that is the result of the play design itself.

I really like Jones...even more and more, mistakes and all. Let's see him limit the errors....give his team a chance to win Late..steal a few games. He needs to begin playing like a guy who's capable of leading a MUCH BETTER 2020 Squad.

Goooooooooooo Giiiiaaannntttsssss!!!!!!!
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He's a rookie.  
Britt in VA : 11/6/2019 8:59 am : link
.
RE: Until Jones goes through his progression quicker  
Canton : 11/6/2019 9:04 am : link
In comment 14666523 since1925 said:
Quote:
He will be ineffective. Right now he goes (with a few exceptions) from his primary to the check down.

That is NOT a major sin for a rookie. That's why you play him. It's called growing pains. Anyone who thought the Giants would win a bunch of games with Jones at QB was not being realistic.


When you're line is giving him zero time to get rid of the ball..

Of course he's going to look at his first read and then dump off. If the line would afford him the extra 2 seconds he can go to his second and third read.

He has no confidence in that line line now. Just like Eli didn't. So now you're seeing Jones do what Eli had done before him.

It's not rocket science. The line has to play MUCH better for him to be effective.
RE: RE: Until Jones goes through his progression quicker  
jonnyess : 11/6/2019 9:11 am : link
In comment 14666566 Canton said:
Quote:
In comment 14666523 since1925 said:


Quote:




It's not rocket science. The line has to play MUCH better for him to be effective.



Unfortunately, I see the OL losing individual battles on every play, often two or three simultaneously. Very few schemes will fix this...it's a dearth of talent/ability issue.

On defense...Ive never seen a team so collectively unable to get off their blocks. It's like an epidemic of incompetence.

Skill players aside, this team simply does not have the roster talent to compete on most Sundays.

Like the stages of grief...I've come to accept this I'm afraid.
QBs  
Gruber : 11/6/2019 9:14 am : link
It's impossible to be a good QB if your OL sucks. Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson play on teams with decent offensive lines. DJ, Darnold, Rosen all play on teams whose OLs are poor, leading to many panicked plays.
And Baker Mayfield is an arrogant prick who needs to grow up, though he's also not alone on the Browns in having an attitude problem. If he can do that (big "if", Baker!), he can also be a decent QB.
I dont recall ever seeing an NFL QB  
cjac : 11/6/2019 9:16 am : link
fumble as much as he does.

I mean he's averaging 2 fumbles a game

However, and its prob because i hate him, i'm going to blame Shurmur. A good coach would coach him out of it.
It is what rookies and  
JonC : 11/6/2019 9:16 am : link
bad football teams do, they help beat themselves.
RE: .  
BlueLou'sBack : 11/6/2019 9:17 am : link
In comment 14666485 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Yeah, it's called being a rookie QB in the NFL.

They make mistakes.

Jones isn't "LOSING" us games any more than the incompetent HC, DC, horrendous defense, awful offensive line or general lack of talent are.


I almost never disagree with arcs, but this time I take the disenting POV. Jones is hurting the Giants in far more ways than most realize or at least acknowledge.

But it's par for the course for a rookie QB. As for the "awful" OL discussed in many threads, this exact group of OL, if they were playing for Belichick in NE and in front of Tom Brady running the team on the field, they would be more than adequate.
RE: I dont recall ever seeing an NFL QB  
arcarsenal : 11/6/2019 9:18 am : link
In comment 14666597 cjac said:
Quote:
fumble as much as he does.

I mean he's averaging 2 fumbles a game

However, and its prob because i hate him, i'm going to blame Shurmur. A good coach would coach him out of it.


He's not averaging two fumbles a game.

He's fumbling too much, but we don't need to exaggerate to make the point. He's started 7 games and fumbled 10 times.

Far too much. But, he doesn't have 14.
RE: RE: .  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/6/2019 9:19 am : link
In comment 14666600 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 14666485 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Yeah, it's called being a rookie QB in the NFL.

They make mistakes.

Jones isn't "LOSING" us games any more than the incompetent HC, DC, horrendous defense, awful offensive line or general lack of talent are.



I almost never disagree with arcs, but this time I take the disenting POV. Jones is hurting the Giants in far more ways than most realize or at least acknowledge.

But it's par for the course for a rookie QB. As for the "awful" OL discussed in many threads, this exact group of OL, if they were playing for Belichick in NE and in front of Tom Brady running the team on the field, they would be more than adequate.


If the OL was playing better than it appeared to be, then I feel like you'd at least see it in the run game.

An inexperienced QB can make an offensive line look bad, but then how do we explain a consistent failure to block for Barkley?
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 11/6/2019 9:20 am : link
In comment 14666600 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 14666485 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Yeah, it's called being a rookie QB in the NFL.

They make mistakes.

Jones isn't "LOSING" us games any more than the incompetent HC, DC, horrendous defense, awful offensive line or general lack of talent are.



I almost never disagree with arcs, but this time I take the disenting POV. Jones is hurting the Giants in far more ways than most realize or at least acknowledge.

But it's par for the course for a rookie QB. As for the "awful" OL discussed in many threads, this exact group of OL, if they were playing for Belichick in NE and in front of Tom Brady running the team on the field, they would be more than adequate.


Which ways would those be?

The proof is in the pudding. He's had less time to throw the football than just about any other QB in the league. These guys would magically all be good in New England?

The Patriots are a lazy example - I hate even bringing them up in discussions like these. They're just unprovable throwaway points.

If Belichick was the coach, we'd have a better record too. We don't have Bill and our OL doesn't play in Foxboro.

This offensive line is horrid. I have no idea how anyone could argue otherwise. It's every bit as bad as it was when Gettleman got here.
he also won us 2 games virtually on his own  
UConn4523 : 11/6/2019 9:21 am : link
and put us in position to win some of the games he's lost.

He's making a bunch of really good plays mixed with some bad mistakes. Shit happens but he isn't the problem with this team.
He's a  
charlito : 11/6/2019 9:21 am : link
Rookie 🤷‍♂️Peyton had 31 turnovers his first year.
RE: I dont recall ever seeing an NFL QB  
Big Rick in FL : 11/6/2019 9:25 am : link
In comment 14666597 cjac said:
Quote:
fumble as much as he does.

I mean he's averaging 2 fumbles a game

However, and its prob because i hate him, i'm going to blame Shurmur. A good coach would coach him out of it.


Lamar Jackson had 13 in 8 games as a starter last year (including playoffs) and another 2 in games he wasn't a starter.

Goff had 12 last year. Minshew has 11 this year. Josh Allen has 10.
To TTH who mentioned how badly the Giants are  
BlueLou'sBack : 11/6/2019 9:32 am : link
"running the ball".

IDK, but at some point early during Monday night's game the stat flashed that showed Barkley averaging 5.0 ypc.


Barkley has looked tentative at times this year, and in an effort to "follow his blockers" is freelancing less and therefore NOT generating the big hit plays he ran for last year when bouncing things outside. He also misses Sterling Sheppard's (and maybe OBJ's too) blocking in the run game that helped extend his runs 10+ yards downfield. Look for it and you'll see.

Still, he's averaging 5.0 yards per carry. This OL isn't as awful as many are making out!

Allstarjim and Cosmicjc have noted it as well.

The naysayers see what they want...
If we had a good defense  
bradshaw44 : 11/6/2019 9:39 am : link
Jones wouldn't be so pressed to always try and make something happen.
Jones is a rookie, and he is making rookie mistakes  
Mike from Ohio : 11/6/2019 9:45 am : link
You have to expect that. He has talent and we all need to be a little patient while he grows into being an NFL QB. What I think are his two biggest issues so far are 1) holding onto the ball to long and not realizing when to throw it away or tuck the ball and go to the ground; and 2) the fumbles.

Item #1 is something you expect a bright guy to correct with experience. Eli struggled a little with it his whole career because he didn't seem to have the ability to give up on plays until the end of his career. Hopefully Jones learns it more quickly.

Item #2 is more concerning as it is not the same problem exactly as Tiki had with where and how to hold the ball when running. You can't hold the ball high and tight in the pocket when you are looking to throw. But he has to be able to better feel the rush, and secure the ball when the protection and throw just aren't there.
RE: To TTH who mentioned how badly the Giants are  
Jay on the Island : 11/6/2019 9:46 am : link
In comment 14666633 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
"running the ball".

IDK, but at some point early during Monday night's game the stat flashed that showed Barkley averaging 5.0 ypc.


Barkley has looked tentative at times this year, and in an effort to "follow his blockers" is freelancing less and therefore NOT generating the big hit plays he ran for last year when bouncing things outside. He also misses Sterling Sheppard's (and maybe OBJ's too) blocking in the run game that helped extend his runs 10+ yards downfield. Look for it and you'll see.

Still, he's averaging 5.0 yards per carry. This OL isn't as awful as many are making out!

Allstarjim and Cosmicjc have noted it as well.

The naysayers see what they want...

Do you think last season's offensive line was good? I think we can all agree that the line was terrible last season and Barkley averaged 5.0 yards per carry. Barkley is an elite talent who will perform regardless of the players around him. Barkley averaging 5 yards per carry doesn't prove that the offensive line is good at pass blocking.
RE: To TTH who mentioned how badly the Giants are  
Big Rick in FL : 11/6/2019 9:47 am : link
In comment 14666633 BlueLou'sBack said:
[quote] "running the ball".

IDK, but at some point early during Monday night's game the stat flashed that showed Barkley averaging 5.0 ypc.


Barkley has looked tentative at times this year, and in an effort to "follow his blockers" is freelancing less and therefore NOT generating the big hit plays he ran for last year when bouncing things outside. He also misses Sterling Sheppard's (and maybe OBJ's too) blocking in the run game that helped extend his runs 10+ yards downfield. Look for it and you'll see.

Still, he's averaging 5.0 yards per carry. This OL isn't as awful as many are making out!

Allstarjim and Cosmicjc have noted it as well.

The naysayers see what they want... [/quote

Saquon is at 4.6 YPC for the season. His last 4 games he's averaging 1.2, 4, 3.4 and 2.0.

Gallman has had 5 or more carries in two games. In those two games he's averaging 3.5 and 2.

As of the Lions game he was the most pressured QB in the NFL. By a significant margin.
Daniel Jones has shown more this season that I expected  
Jay on the Island : 11/6/2019 9:48 am : link
I am confident that his fumbling issues will be fixed in time. He's a 22 year old rookie trying to do too much to compensate for the lack of talent around him.
RE: To TTH who mentioned how badly the Giants are  
Big Rick in FL : 11/6/2019 9:54 am : link
In comment 14666633 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
"running the ball".

IDK, but at some point early during Monday night's game the stat flashed that showed Barkley averaging 5.0 ypc.


Barkley has looked tentative at times this year, and in an effort to "follow his blockers" is freelancing less and therefore NOT generating the big hit plays he ran for last year when bouncing things outside. He also misses Sterling Sheppard's (and maybe OBJ's too) blocking in the run game that helped extend his runs 10+ yards downfield. Look for it and you'll see.

Still, he's averaging 5.0 yards per carry. This OL isn't as awful as many are making out!

Allstarjim and Cosmicjc have noted it as well.

The naysayers see what they want...



Saquon is at 4.6 YPC for the season. His last 4 games he's averaging 1.2, 4, 3.4 and 2.0.

Gallman has had 5 or more carries in two games. In those two games he's averaging 3.5 and 2.

As of the Lions game he was the most pressured QB in the NFL. By a significant margin.
Jones has  
Daniel in MI : 11/6/2019 9:58 am : link
Looked way better than Eli did as a rookie, or a lot of others. But yes, the fumbling is a problem (I can live with some INTs, hes a rookie, better than gun shy). Some is holding the ball to long, some is shitty OL play, and some is him needing to be more aware. It probably has helped cost us games but so has a lot of other stuff. The main thing is that he learns and corrects it as much as possible.
The mistakes are why he needed to play this year  
Rudy5757 : 11/6/2019 10:09 am : link
Our roster sucks right now. We may as well get the QB mistakes out and learn from them this season so he can move forward in year 2. if we had a great roster I could see him sitting and learning. But in our case, he is not costing us any meaningful games so it doesnt matter. he can make mistakes and learn from them.
Its amazing what a little mobility does for the nyg fan base  
djm : 11/6/2019 10:10 am : link
look Jones should be starting right now. And hes doing fine for a rookie, but hes not putting any yardage. Eli and the giants averaged well over 400 yards of offense through the first 2 games and that was against two good defenses in Dallas and buffalo.

Eli wasnt the problem here folks. He may not have been the solution but manning wasnt holding this shit show back. Many of us shouted this from the rooftops for months or years.

Jones has a lot of work to do. I love his ability, aura and demeanor and I think we got a great young qb but the giants can certainly ruin him just like they ruined Eli. Who we gonna blame in 2 years?

Jones has the goods, he is our franchinse QB  
gtt350 : 11/6/2019 10:20 am : link
Some of his mistakes are because he's trying to make plays because everyone else fucked up. He wouldn't be running if the line blocked and the receivers got open, oh and maybe catch the ball right in your hands
To be expected...  
GA5 : 11/6/2019 10:24 am : link
Once the team benched Eli, they basically threw in the towel on the season. And since they were now giving the new quarterback on the job training, fan expectations for the season were immediately lowered, taking the team off the hook for its other shortcomings, and subsequent lack of success this year. It's all about perception.
RE: Its amazing what a little mobility does for the nyg fan base  
arcarsenal : 11/6/2019 10:29 am : link
In comment 14666704 djm said:
Quote:
look Jones should be starting right now. And hes doing fine for a rookie, but hes not putting any yardage. Eli and the giants averaged well over 400 yards of offense through the first 2 games and that was against two good defenses in Dallas and buffalo.

Eli wasnt the problem here folks. He may not have been the solution but manning wasnt holding this shit show back. Many of us shouted this from the rooftops for months or years.

Jones has a lot of work to do. I love his ability, aura and demeanor and I think we got a great young qb but the giants can certainly ruin him just like they ruined Eli. Who we gonna blame in 2 years?


Eli also wasn't the solution. You conveniently also neglected to mention the difference in salary or his age.

Here's the stat that matters against DAL/BUF.

0-2.

We scored 17 and 14 points in those two games with Manning. The Giants scored more points in Jones' first start (32) than each of the first two weeks combined. So, forget the yardage stuff - it's a weak, nonsense argument and a small sample size that we can do all sorts of twisting and turning on.

Barkley's ankle is still very clearly not right. So, Manning is the only one of the two who had 100% Saquon Barkley this year. Jones played half his games without Barkley entirely, and he's looked like 85% of the guy he was before since he's been back.
A little  
GiantsRage2007 : 11/6/2019 10:43 am : link
Better ball security and pocket awareness for the rush and he'll be very good.

OL improvement will help him along with both of these btw

RE: RE: I dont recall ever seeing an NFL QB  
joeinpa : 11/6/2019 10:44 am : link
In comment 14666603 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14666597 cjac said:


Quote:


fumble as much as he does.

I mean he's averaging 2 fumbles a game

However, and its prob because i hate him, i'm going to blame Shurmur. A good coach would coach him out of it.



He's not averaging two fumbles a game.

He's fumbling too much, but we don't need to exaggerate to make the point. He's started 7 games and fumbled 10 times.

Far too much. But, he doesn't have 14.


I d argue not all of those fumbles were his fault. He had 13 fumbles in his career at Duke. Fumbling has not been a significant problem for him until this season.

Every confidence he will fix it
Jones  
Archer : 11/6/2019 10:51 am : link
Can we stop assigning blame to Jones. He is a rookie QB trying to make plays.

This is an awful team and any QB would look bad playing for the Giants.

Jones has receivers who cannot separate, run wrong routes, and have limited receiving ability.
He has played with his top receiver sidelined most of the season.
The Giants receivers are at the bottom of the league with 2 yards average separation.

The offensive line has allowed 31 sacks in (8) games.
Jones has a 48% completion rate when under duress, but a 70% completion when he has a clean pocket.

The play calling is abysmal. last year Barkley had over 2,000 total yards including 721 yards receiving. I know that Barkley has been injured (which also hurt Jones) but what happened to the wheel route and spreading Barley out?

Jones is making making rookie mistakes but most are due to Jones trying to make a play. Diving forward while running for a first down, standing in the pocket too long, throwing into tight windows.

I would not be happy if Jones did not try to extend plays
I do not want a facilitator at QB. The Giants are building toward the future and allowing Jones to grow.
He is not the problem but part of the solution.

OP  
ryanmkeane : 11/6/2019 10:51 am : link
Jones is a rookie QB. This is how it goes. As fans we have to be patient. The guy is 22 years old, starting as a rookie QB on a bad team. If not for him, we might actually be winless.
I agree  
Amtoft : 11/6/2019 10:58 am : link
it's so weird. He is playing like he is some kind of rookie or something being thrown into playing the hardest position in football. Can't believe he is making mistakes.
Rookie QB's do not win.  
Torrag : 11/6/2019 11:08 am : link
It's extremely rare statistically. This is why I wanted them to commit to half a season for Eli. DJ should have sat about 8 games both for his own good and to see what an experienced pro could do over a reasonable stretch of games.

Just one more among way too many bad decisions by Shurmur.

RE: RE: I dont recall ever seeing an NFL QB  
cjac : 11/6/2019 11:16 am : link
In comment 14666603 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14666597 cjac said:


Quote:


fumble as much as he does.

I mean he's averaging 2 fumbles a game

However, and its prob because i hate him, i'm going to blame Shurmur. A good coach would coach him out of it.



He's not averaging two fumbles a game.

He's fumbling too much, but we don't need to exaggerate to make the point. He's started 7 games and fumbled 10 times.

Far too much. But, he doesn't have 14.


10, is that fumbles lost? or fumbles?

serious question.
forget it  
cjac : 11/6/2019 11:24 am : link
I found it
I retract my original statement  
cjac : 11/6/2019 11:24 am : link
i replace it with

he's averaging 1.25 fumbles a game
when your defense gives up  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 11/6/2019 11:31 am : link
28+ points a game you have to do whatever you can.

The only TO that was his fault the other night was the fumble on the scramble.

The INT should have been a Knee to end the half but our HC is worthless.

The other fumble he was hit while trying to throw due to our very poor OL.

The kid is making mistakes most QB's make...

Take a look at the Manning Bros....
So ridiculous that 2020 is supposed to be  
Leg of Theismann : 11/6/2019 11:35 am : link
This team's "breakout" year. It was supposed to set up for us to compete in 2020-22. Does anyone see this team doing that? Even with some random assortment of FAs signed in the offseason? Does anyone have faith in DG's ability to properly assess FAs and spend the money wisely? As opposed to dumping some massive $70M contract on a 32 year old guy who was good like 3 years ago?
RE: RE: I dont recall ever seeing an NFL QB  
Bleedin Blue : 11/6/2019 11:38 am : link
In comment 14666603 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14666597 cjac said:


Quote:


fumble as much as he does.

I mean he's averaging 2 fumbles a game

However, and its prob because i hate him, i'm going to blame Shurmur. A good coach would coach him out of it.




He's not averaging two fumbles a game.

He's fumbling too much, but we don't need to exaggerate to make the point. He's started 7 games and fumbled 10 times.

Far too much. But, he doesn't have 14.


Id go as far as saying his last fumble wasnt on him! The Edge Rusher came in untouched as he was throwing! Give the kid a break! It sucks but this is him getting experience, if he continues then go ahead and rip the shit out of him!
I like some of what I see  
rocco8112 : 11/6/2019 12:12 pm : link
,but the turnovers are absurd and must stop. Jury still way out on him.
So Jones is losing games for the Giants  
Junior22 : 11/6/2019 12:20 pm : link
But Eli was not his fault and Reese and DG are to blame for the last 10 years...Damm I bet Jones hopes to get the same type of defense from the fanbase that Eli enjoyed
RE: .  
Matt G : 11/6/2019 12:21 pm : link
In comment 14666485 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Yeah, it's called being a rookie QB in the NFL.

They make mistakes.

Jones isn't "LOSING" us games any more than the incompetent HC, DC, horrendous defense, awful offensive line or general lack of talent are.

^this
what is scary is the lack of pocket awareness  
mdc1 : 11/6/2019 12:27 pm : link
. He can move, but he is not a natural. Not sure this can be coached out. Turnovers lose games, end of story. And we do not have a juggernaut offense to make up for it.
RE: what is scary is the lack of pocket awareness  
BocaGiants91 : 11/6/2019 12:39 pm : link
In comment 14667006 mdc1 said:
Quote:
. He can move, but he is not a natural. Not sure this can be coached out. Turnovers lose games, end of story. And we do not have a juggernaut offense to make up for it.


I agree. He needs to improve on ball security and pocket awareness. As we have seen, ball security can be coached. I am not so sure about pocket awareness.

I watched Ryan Tannehill down here for 6(he missed a whole season with an ACL tear, or it would be 7) seasons have zero pocket awareness every year he played, and NEVER improved on it. Everyone knew it was a problem. Pocket awareness is something you either have or don't and I think some QBs can develop this by reps, but its just not easy to coach it.

I still like what I see from DJ8. If hes going to make mistakes, get them out of the way this year, get better in the offseason, be ready to roll next year.
Sy called it  
Vanzetti : 11/6/2019 12:54 pm : link
Jones has trouble processing quickly, which leads to his holding the ball, which leads to hits, which leads to turnovers
DJ  
gerry123 : 11/6/2019 1:54 pm : link
DJ has several possible shortcomings beyond the speed of the game as a rookie.


1) he is robotic not intuitive

2) he does not seem to be able to parallel process information (as in 1)

3) his eyes are too closely spaced which limits his short distance range of peripheral vision

Net always hopeful but never sucesssful
For BigRickinFla...  
BlueLou'sBack : 11/6/2019 1:56 pm : link
You didn't provide a link for your assertion that Jones "is the most pressured QB in football".

There are lots of ways to skin a cat, and if you don't provide the link to the stat you quoted it's meaningless.

For example: is he "the most pressured QB" based on the total # of sacks, pressures, and hurries? Is that then divided by the # if pass attempts?

Most importantly, if the time that he's holding the ball hasn't been factored into that stat then its meaning isn't terribly robust as a measure of the OL...

Jones is probably better than any qB in the last 2 drafts  
Carl in CT : 11/6/2019 2:03 pm : link
Other than Mr. Raven who is fighting for MVP and still gets shit on. No WR deep threat and a line that causes most of his fumbles. This is one thing the Giants got right. It just baffles me the lack of knowledge by some posters. The kid is a gamer!
Do you think the time he holds the ball is affected  
Carl in CT : 11/6/2019 2:05 pm : link
Because none of our WRs are able to get open? We play WRs off the scrap heap week in and week out.
No doubt in my mind  
Bill L : 11/6/2019 4:18 pm : link
that he's going to be the next great NYG QB. One of the best in the league when he hits his stride.
RE: Sy called it  
BlueLou'sBack : 11/7/2019 2:45 am : link
In comment 14667054 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
Jones has trouble processing quickly, which leads to his holding the ball, which leads to hits, which leads to turnovers


At loved Rosen, too, who seems destined to be a backup QB in the NFL unless someone right now not in coaching takes a chance and miraculously coaches him up into Brett Favre.


Sy has holes in his game, too, maybe?
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