I feel the main reason we need to overhaul the coaching staff when *this* season is over is due our position with the cap going into the 2020 offseason. I feel the 2020 offseason is a uniquely pivotal time for this organizaton, and it is key we get the decision regarding the HC going forward correct as soon as possible. This may seem obvious, but let me explain:
We are about to spend a lot of money this offseason and saddle this team with some large long-term salaries (most likely) and I think we need to know the coach and system that will be in place in 2020 and going forward before we make these decisions. We've talked about Ogletree, Jackrabbit, and possibly even Solder being cut/traded in the offseason and that will create even more cap space, and on top of that we'll have another top 5-10 pick, so before we make any of these pivotal decisions about the draft or use of cap space, I think we need to cut ties with Shurmur and Bettcher before we invest in a ton of assets and then realize a year later oh actually we have to completely change the system.
I think Shurmur has shown us enough that he does not have the skills it takes from a general game-management and play-calling standpoint, and he is simply not a "Leader of Men" who automatically commands respect from players, staff, media, and fans the way Parcells and Coughlin were. Shurmur has an awful career HC record with no proven track record. I really don't need to get into all the reasons why we don't have faith in Shurmur, but I see no reason why we should "give him another chance" with the ton of freed up cap space we have.
If Shurmur had shown us enough to say "OK, he's not winning games because of a lack of talent and that is due our bad cap situation the last couple years, but we can see he the potential for greatness when he's done x y z, etc.," then I think we'd all be okay with giving him a shot. But I don't think he has made a good impression on anyone so far. I don't think adding talent via big splashes in free agency is going to suddenly make this guy a super bowl winning HC. I just don't see it and I know a lot of people on this board agree with that assessment 1.5 years into this regime.
Mike Tomlin is 4-4 right now and look at the roster and injuries and adversity he's had to face in Pitt this year. Sure the Steelers won't win the super bowl this year, but right there is an example of a coach who can at least make his team competitive with very little at his disposal and in the midst of fans and media calling for him to fired.
Shurmur seems to be the type of coach who actually listens too much to the media and lets it affect his decisions, causing him to make the decision he should made a week ago a week too late. See for instance: NOT going for it on 4th and 2 down 2 scores in the 4th quarter to the Pats, being questioned relentlessly about it, but then going for it on 4th and 15 the next week? That's one example but there are tons of examples of him seeming to want to appease the media after he's already messed up and it makes the situation twice as bad; that's something you never see Tomlin do, something you never saw Coughlin do when they were calling for his job every season, and something you can't see any successful HC do in the NFL especially not in NY.
I'm getting off-topic here, and I am not trying to make this another thread that's just about why Shurmur is the worst. I mainly just wanted to make this point: we are about to have a ton of cap space in 2020 and an opportunity to shape this team however we'd like for the next 3-4 years. Do we want to give the keys for that car to the current regime? Do we think they are just a little talent away from competing? I've been back and forth, but my honest assessment right now is that I think Gettleman has done ENOUGH to show us he deserves a shot at building a team with a full cap, and I think he's had ENOUGH success in his career to be given the chance to do that without us dumping him so quickly, but I think Shurmur has NOT shown us enough as a HC (and nor has Bettcher as DC) to give them the chance to build a team with the favorable cap and draft position we will be in come 2020 offseason.
So again-- my main point is I think this is a pivotal turning point and the decisions we make in FA in 2020 with all this cap $ will have a huge impact on our cap going forward, and the last thing any of us want to see if having to change system and coaching 1-2 years from now and therefore having to reconstruct the roster with a ton of money already tied up in players who were brought in for Shurmur's and Bettcher's system. The NFL is all about getting the right players for the right system. You need good players, and a good system, but the third thing you need is the perfect fit of the 2 as well. By throwing a bunch of money at FAs in 2020 trying to fit one system and then having to turn around and change the system a year or 2 later is a perfect way to continue spinning our wheels for another half-decade.
So I don't think this is a matter of just "well let's give him another year and see what happens we can always get a new coach in 2021." Rather I think the decisions we make in free agency in 2020 will have major impact on the next 5 years of Giants football and they will be hugely dependent on the coaching staff and their system in place; therefore I do think entering this offseason we are at a pivotal point and whatever we do with regards to Shurmur, Bettcher, and free agency will shape how Giants football for much of the 2020s will look.
So you guys agree that this is a more pivotal offseason than others for the reasons I've laid out, or do you think I'm being dramatic and whether we fire Shurmur this year or next year doesn't really impact the future of the franchise a whole lot?
The same can be said regarding Jones: I think we need a coach with a system that fits his talents and abilities since he is our guy going forward, I just don't think it should be Shurmur.
So we can try to make HC/OC/DC hires somewhat based on what we already have, but the deeper we get into shaping the roster around Shurmur/Bettcher the harder it will be to unravel when we realize they won't be the guys to get the job done. So the point is: in 2020, we are about to get deep into the weeds with the large splashes in FA we are fixing to make.
Are you saying this because you think he hasn't been given a fair shot? If so, I can sort of see what you're saying, but I think we have to ask: based on what we've seen from Shurmur, perhaps he will do better with better talent, but is he a championship-winning HC? Is he truly just a little better talent away from being a truly successful HC? IMO, from what I've seen, I don't believe he is.
I'm not a huge Gettleman fan, but I think he's at least shown some promise with some of the moves he's made and some of the players he's drafted. Enough so that I don't think he deserves to be fired 2 years in and does deserve a crack at this with some cap space available to him. And I do actually like his attitude of sticking to his guns /cutting ties as soon as he knows something isn't working without caring what the media or fans think. That's a trait you need in NY. I don't think Shurmur has that trait. I think he's thin-skinned and is not a strong enough personality for this job or any NFL HC job.
I think DG has shown some promise here and there as a GM, and at least he was the man in charge when Carolina went to the super bowl, so he has SOMEWHAT of a track record of success (you can argue he didn't build that roster etc. but still he has had some success in this league in the position he is in right now). I think Shurmur has shown incompetence and made some bewildering decisions/calls the last 1.5 seasons and I don't see him as a championship HC. I don't believe he deserves a crack at this no matter how much our cap space issues may have hindered him the past 2 years.
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Gettleman to pick the players regardless of the coach?
I'm not a huge Gettleman fan, but I think he's at least shown some promise with some of the moves he's made and some of the players he's drafted. Enough so that I don't think he deserves to be fired 2 years in and does deserve a crack at this with some cap space available to him. And I do actually like his attitude of sticking to his guns /cutting ties as soon as he knows something isn't working without caring what the media or fans think. That's a trait you need in NY. I don't think Shurmur has that trait. I think he's thin-skinned and is not a strong enough personality for this job or any NFL HC job.
I think DG has shown some promise here and there as a GM, and at least he was the man in charge when Carolina went to the super bowl, so he has SOMEWHAT of a track record of success (you can argue he didn't build that roster etc. but still he has had some success in this league in the position he is in right now). I think Shurmur has shown incompetence and made some bewildering decisions/calls the last 1.5 seasons and I don't see him as a championship HC. I don't believe he deserves a crack at this no matter how much our cap space issues may have hindered him the past 2 years.
I agree with all of this.
DG with another draft, another FA class with more $$, and another Head coach gives me hope.
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but see the 2020 cap space as the one valid reason to keep Shurmur on.
Are you saying this because you think he hasn't been given a fair shot? If so, I can sort of see what you're saying, but I think we have to ask: based on what we've seen from Shurmur, perhaps he will do better with better talent, but is he a championship-winning HC? Is he truly just a little better talent away from being a truly successful HC? IMO, from what I've seen, I don't believe he is.
Yes - he has one of the poorest rosters in the NFL right now - almost all of his talent is extremely young (remember the rookie snap count figures from a week ago?). The talent that was here was all stripped off and sold at a discount, much of it before he had a chance to work with them. Here's just some of the talent that helped make the 2016 defense one of the best.
JPP, Snacks, Vernon, Collins, DRC, Kennard, Okwara, Wynn, Apple - several perennial pro-bowler types, other valuable depth, all gone. Replaced by who?
The promise of this year was that the team would play young talent they were acquiring, suffer from growing pains, clear cap space, and be ready to compete for FA next year to fill in the rest of the holes created by the roster purge.
Unfair to only expect success this year.
the facts are we signed him for 5 years. we're still paying mcadoo this season, he comes off the books next year. if we cut him now we'd have to pay him for the next 3 years.
lets hope gettleman picks up scheme neutral young talent. if shurmur has a winning season in 2020 we're stuck with him. chances are unless he makes serious changes to his coaching style we're not going to be a contender sadly.
here's to 2021 being a bounce back year under a young, smart, head coach we can have for the next 2 decades lol
If you didn't like Shurmur or were on the fence, it's easy to understand how you view the results so far as evidence for getting rid of him.
When considering Giants ownership, they were clearly sold on him. I think if they let him go after this season there better be a significant and OBVIOUS upgrade available. Without that, you are looking at either having unreasonable expectations for the 2019 season or basing your business strategic decisions on the whims of the fickle fans/mob.
The fact that there is an opportunity to significantly improve the roster by this time next year is the biggest reason for keeping him on, imo.
Shurmur is NOT the guy to right this ship.
He has a 29% winning percentage as a Head Coach.
I can go one but it would be a broken record on here.
The Giants have over 60 mil in space right now and can create an additional 31 mil in space by cutting Jenkins, Ogletree, Martin, Ellison, and Bethea. They’ll have over 90 mil in space even with Solder’s shitty deal on the books.
They have no one to re-sign in-house besides Williams. The Giants will be in a very healthy cap position in 20 and moving forward.
Yeah you can tag him but that is not going to help work the cap properly at al
Fixing the OL and getting a WR and decent 2 way TE are major priorities. I think EE gets traded during the draft or just before.
The D has an incompetent DC the FACT that 1/2 way thru he season players don't get the scheme nor playbook vets and rookies alike says a lot about the coach. Not to mention it took forever to get Haley out of there .... just plain stubbornness.
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Disagree that they are a play or two away. Carl Banks said it best a couple weeks ago. "They're always a few plays away from... being a few plays away."
I don't think Shurmur has this team as close as some would like to believe. Too many on this board are impressed with the fact that we only get blown out in the 2nd half, but keep the 1st half competitive. That's a lot of NFL games, though, honestly, if you watch around the league on Sundays.
We had a number of opportunities against Dallas, but Shurmur's red zone offense has been absolutely putrid the past 2 years. PUTRID. The reason TC called it "the green zone" is because that is literally where you make your money. 80% of effort/talent pays off in the last 20 yards of the field. Moving the ball between the 20s is not impressive if you can't punch the ball in the endzone when everything gets exponentially tighter near the goal line. It's challenge, but the great ones can get it done, and IMO with a dynamic back like Barkley, a big target like Engram, and a QB who has shown tremendous ball placement in tight windows, I see no reason why Shurmur hasn't been able to improve that aspect of the offense. He's simply an uninspiring play-caller and play-designer compared to the rest of the modern-day NFL.
People seem to think that as long as we're not losing by 30 points per game, then hell Shurmur must be doing something right, right? Wrong. It's the little things he is missing and is way behind on. Better talent might get us closer, but Shurmur will forever be out-coached just enough miss out on success. I'm taking that one to the bank. I guarantee you he is not HC material for the NFL of the 2020s.
JPP, Snacks, Vernon, Collins, DRC, Kennard, Okwara, Wynn, Apple - several perennial pro-bowler types, other valuable depth, all gone. Replaced by who?
Dexter Lawrence, Markus Golden, Lorenzo Carter, Jabrill Peppers, Deandre Baker, Ryan Connelly, Leonard Williams, Sam Beal, Ballentine, BJ Hill, Ximines.
And DRC basically has 1 foot in retirement and the other on an operating table, so I wouldn't call him valuable depth and certainly not a pro bowler. Okwara and Wynn have less than 1 sack between them this year (Vernon and Kennard 3 each). Eli Apple and Landon Collins have 0 INTs combined. If any of these guys are going to Hawaii after the season it's on their own dime.
There's plenty to be critical of with this organization but cutting bait with the older and more expensive guys who played central roles in the 2017 and 2018 disasters is not one of them. And I'd guess there are more favorable reviews of their replacements than unfavorable.
2016 - Giants defense 3rd in points allowed. Playoffs made. Unprecedented six Giants make first or second team All Pro - a bigger honor than Pro.
2019 - Gettleman finishes demolition of the defense of all Pro-Bowl except Jenkins - and I'm sure he's been trying. Also got rid of JPP and Apple. Apple 10th overall pick in the draft. After a promising rookie season he didn't look as good on a 2 win team where the whole team faced chaos all season.
Colling has no picks. Yeah, but like everywhere he goes he's leading the team in solo tackles by 13 and has six tackles for a loss. The stiffs on this defense can't tackle. Apple has no picks, but he's the starting corner on a 6-1 team. Do you think he might play better than that rookie who gets thrown at on every play.
Result: Giants are third worst in point allowed.
It's so simple. Cause and effect.