Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Had the Giants committed to Jones from the beginning

Bubba : 11/7/2019 4:32 pm
having a full training camp and preseason working with the ones, would it have made a difference?
no  
jestersdead : 11/7/2019 4:35 pm : link
he started and they went 2-0. Since then 0-5. The NFL has adapted to Jones at QB and the lack of skill players around him + a terrible HC and poor D is the reason why they are 2-7
Difference in what?  
DC Gmen Fan : 11/7/2019 4:35 pm : link
The guy has performed as well as you can expect a rookie too. He'll get the ball security issues under control and his pocket awareness will improve with experience. If by this time next year we're talking about the same issues, then maybe it's time to be concerned.
You mean like cutting Eli and using that cap  
90.Cal : 11/7/2019 4:38 pm : link
To add to this team?
DC  
Bubba : 11/7/2019 4:39 pm : link
Good point about the ball security issue. This is something that may have been worked in the preseason.
The difference  
MotownGIANTS : 11/7/2019 4:40 pm : link
would have been starting the rebuild last yr vs thinking Eli had anything left in the tank. That was and is the biggest mistake.
RE: You mean like cutting Eli and using that cap  
djm : 11/7/2019 4:45 pm : link
In comment 14668574 90.Cal said:
Quote:
To add to this team?


This place is precious. The second the giants throw big money at a FA half this place gets the vapors over the guaranteed money. Shit some here are STILL losing sleep over the big bad Vernon contract yet Vernon helped this team get to the playoffs, something we rarely see, and then his horrible, cap crunching, soul crushing contract was traded for Zietler. Was the contract REALLY that bad?

Get over the fucking Eli money already.
Who knows?  
jcn56 : 11/7/2019 4:49 pm : link
It's really something we can't answer - based on how much Eli vs. Jones at QB factored into the roster composition and playbook development, there would either be limited impact or it could be a big deal.

Would knowing that Jones would be out there for every snap have changed how they approached the OL? Who they signed for WRs/TEs? It's hard to imagine the planning would have been exactly the same whether a 15 year vet pocket passing QB was under center rather than a mobile rookie taking his first snaps.
RE: RE: You mean like cutting Eli and using that cap  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/7/2019 4:49 pm : link
In comment 14668581 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 14668574 90.Cal said:


Quote:


To add to this team?



This place is precious. The second the giants throw big money at a FA half this place gets the vapors over the guaranteed money. Shit some here are STILL losing sleep over the big bad Vernon contract yet Vernon helped this team get to the playoffs, something we rarely see, and then his horrible, cap crunching, soul crushing contract was traded for Zietler. Was the contract REALLY that bad?

Get over the fucking Eli money already.

How about this scenario instead - the Giants take that money and instead of renegotiating the cadavers of Solder and Ellison, they just absorb cap space this year in a lost season and maximize their cap room and flexibility going forward?

Is that too difficult to understand, Mr. Pom Poms? Do you want me to rewrite it using only monosyllabic words?
Working as the quasi starter all off season  
ron mexico : 11/7/2019 5:18 pm : link
With a vet stop gam couldnít have hit his development, but probably would make enough of a difference to turn these losses into wins.
Not binary, Very gray  
V.I.G. : 11/7/2019 5:50 pm : link
Pro
All that extra camp time and reps for him
Extra '19 cap space

Con
There's no way watching Eli's professionalism didn't help
Still continuing with the bbi thought  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 11/7/2019 6:04 pm : link
we just need a qb with mobility, they dont need oline or receivers.

Much deeper problems with the team.
Eli bashers are back  
Tim in VA : 11/7/2019 6:18 pm : link
It's the same loser team as when Eli was at the helm, and the same ugly losses week after week. Yet it's clear that he is done? To me it's clear that Eli being done was a red herring.
RE: Eli bashers are back  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/7/2019 6:33 pm : link
In comment 14668644 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
It's the same loser team as when Eli was at the helm, and the same ugly losses week after week. Yet it's clear that he is done? To me it's clear that Eli being done was a red herring.

You're probably right. 39 year old QBs never decline. In fact, I don't know why we didn't consider giving the QB job back to Simms instead of going with the kid.

What color is the sky in your world? And what do you do with the money that ordinary people spend on life insurance in your universe where people never age?

This version of Eli apologia is just sad. The fact that you're using a rookie QB going through his growing pains as your baseline for why Eli could still be effective just doesn't seem real.
RE: Eli bashers are back  
uther99 : 11/7/2019 7:12 pm : link
In comment 14668644 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
It's the same loser team as when Eli was at the helm, and the same ugly losses week after week. Yet it's clear that he is done? To me it's clear that Eli being done was a red herring.


If Eli is not done, then waive the no trade clause and go, only one stopping it is Eli and the fact that no team wants him
How Many Starting QBs...  
Jim in Tampa : 11/7/2019 7:44 pm : link
Have played poorly at ages 36, 37 and 38 and then had a bounce back year at age 39 or 40?

The answer is zero.

My guess is that Eli still wants to play, but won't find any takers this off season and he'll retire as a Giant.
RE: RE: You mean like cutting Eli and using that cap  
Jimmy Googs : 11/7/2019 9:25 pm : link
In comment 14668581 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 14668574 90.Cal said:


Quote:


To add to this team?



This place is precious. The second the giants throw big money at a FA half this place gets the vapors over the guaranteed money. Shit some here are STILL losing sleep over the big bad Vernon contract yet Vernon helped this team get to the playoffs, something we rarely see, and then his horrible, cap crunching, soul crushing contract was traded for Zietler. Was the contract REALLY that bad?

Get over the fucking Eli money already.


Man, you really suck at this. But Gatorade is on you like white on rice so I wonít pile on...
RE: Eli bashers are back  
Jimmy Googs : 11/7/2019 9:28 pm : link
In comment 14668644 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
It's the same loser team as when Eli was at the helm, and the same ugly losses week after week. Yet it's clear that he is done? To me it's clear that Eli being done was a red herring.


Yeah letís resurrect Eli and get him on the field ASAP. That should help this team move in the right direction...
I love Eli, but I think  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/7/2019 9:32 pm : link
our record would be even worse if he was the starting QB. We don't win that Tampa game with Eli as the starter, maybe not even the Skins game.
RE: RE: RE: You mean like cutting Eli and using that cap  
Scuzzlebutt : 11/7/2019 9:35 pm : link
In comment 14668585 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14668581 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 14668574 90.Cal said:


Quote:


To add to this team?



This place is precious. The second the giants throw big money at a FA half this place gets the vapors over the guaranteed money. Shit some here are STILL losing sleep over the big bad Vernon contract yet Vernon helped this team get to the playoffs, something we rarely see, and then his horrible, cap crunching, soul crushing contract was traded for Zietler. Was the contract REALLY that bad?

Get over the fucking Eli money already.


How about this scenario instead - the Giants take that money and instead of renegotiating the cadavers of Solder and Ellison, they just absorb cap space this year in a lost season and maximize their cap room and flexibility going forward?

Is that too difficult to understand, Mr. Pom Poms? Do you want me to rewrite it using only monosyllabic words?


Spending big bucks in FA is what got us Solder and Ellison (and Vernon for that matter). FA is best used to plug holes - not to assemble a team.
RE: RE: Eli bashers are back  
Scuzzlebutt : 11/7/2019 9:37 pm : link
In comment 14668763 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14668644 Tim in VA said:


Quote:


It's the same loser team as when Eli was at the helm, and the same ugly losses week after week. Yet it's clear that he is done? To me it's clear that Eli being done was a red herring.



Yeah letís resurrect Eli and get him on the field ASAP. That should help this team move in the right direction...


That wasnít his point, but Iím not surprised you didnít get it.
The point is, for the past 2 years  
Tim in VA : 11/7/2019 9:42 pm : link
You dipshits bandied about like Eli was holding us back, that those of us complaining about the shit offensive line, shit run game, shit defense and shit coaching were simply making excuses for Eli.

Well you got what you wanted dipshits, now what? Oh....now the offensive line ducks, now the defense sucks, now the coaching sucks.

Way to catch up, dipshits.
Did I mention you're dipshits?
Tim in VA...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/7/2019 9:44 pm : link
Relax dude. You're coming off like a jackass.
SFG  
Tim in VA : 11/7/2019 9:46 pm : link
Go to your safe space
Okay pal.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/7/2019 9:48 pm : link
You seem like a ton of fun.
And you seem like a vagina  
Tim in VA : 11/7/2019 9:54 pm : link
Do you have anything of substance to add to the conversation?
RE: RE: RE: Eli bashers are back  
Jimmy Googs : 11/7/2019 9:55 pm : link
In comment 14668775 Scuzzlebutt said:
Quote:
In comment 14668763 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 14668644 Tim in VA said:


Quote:


It's the same loser team as when Eli was at the helm, and the same ugly losses week after week. Yet it's clear that he is done? To me it's clear that Eli being done was a red herring.



Yeah letís resurrect Eli and get him on the field ASAP. That should help this team move in the right direction...



That wasnít his point, but Iím not surprised you didnít get it.


Apologies. Enlighten me as to the point?
RE: And you seem like a vagina  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/7/2019 10:05 pm : link
In comment 14668796 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
Do you have anything of substance to add to the conversation?


Yeah. Eli isn't the answer. This team would be even worse with him behind center.
jones never fumbled in college?  
Platos : 11/7/2019 11:21 pm : link
am i reading this right? thats amazing. maybe he's just making up for lost time lol
I'm starting to think  
cjac : 11/8/2019 8:23 am : link
maybe Eli benched himself. Who the fuck would want to be at the helm of this shitty team.
RE: The point is, for the past 2 years  
KingBlue : 11/8/2019 8:26 am : link
In comment 14668782 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
You dipshits bandied about like Eli was holding us back, that those of us complaining about the shit offensive line, shit run game, shit defense and shit coaching were simply making excuses for Eli.

Well you got what you wanted dipshits, now what? Oh....now the offensive line ducks, now the defense sucks, now the coaching sucks.

Bravo

Way to catch up, dipshits.
Did I mention you're dipshits?
RE: The point is, for the past 2 years  
KingBlue : 11/8/2019 8:27 am : link
In comment 14668782 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
You dipshits bandied about like Eli was holding us back, that those of us complaining about the shit offensive line, shit run game, shit defense and shit coaching were simply making excuses for Eli.

Well you got what you wanted dipshits, now what? Oh....now the offensive line ducks, now the defense sucks, now the coaching sucks.

Way to catch up, dipshits.
Did I mention you're dipshits?


Bravo!
RE: The point is, for the past 2 years  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/8/2019 8:38 am : link
In comment 14668782 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
You dipshits bandied about like Eli was holding us back, that those of us complaining about the shit offensive line, shit run game, shit defense and shit coaching were simply making excuses for Eli.

Well you got what you wanted dipshits, now what? Oh....now the offensive line ducks, now the defense sucks, now the coaching sucks.

Way to catch up, dipshits.
Did I mention you're dipshits?

The team around Eli sucked. And Eli also sucked.

Good enough for you, dipshit?
Gatorade  
Tim in VA : 11/8/2019 11:09 am : link
Close enough I guess. Except I think maybe having a crap team can make any QB look sucky, as we're seeing now with Jones. Personally I think it makes it very difficult to accurately evaluate a quarterback, but I guess you're the expert.
Threy should have done the reverse. Played Eli longer...  
Torrag : 11/8/2019 11:32 am : link
...to give the season a chance. Rookies don't win. The number of rookie QB's that came in and made a playoff run can be counted on one hand.
The season never had a chance  
Jimmy Googs : 11/8/2019 11:36 am : link
which is why you play the rookie.

You guys with this view of a playoff run in 2019 are absolutely classic...
Drafting a QB at #6 and paying Eli was schoolboy shit from Gettleman  
Go Terps : 11/8/2019 11:50 am : link
If Mara was requiring Gettleman to pay Eli drafting a quarterback at 6 should have been taken off the board entirely. I like Jones, but he's not some Elway type prospect that comes around once in a generation. This upcoming draft has several QB prospects that would grade similarly to our better than Jones; we could have used that 6 to get another player and then drafted any of Tua, Herbert, Burrow, or Fromm in 2020.

Just amateur hour from the Giants. Completely amateur.
RE: And you seem like a vagina  
section125 : 11/8/2019 12:15 pm : link
In comment 14668796 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
Do you have anything of substance to add to the conversation?


You certainly don't.

Terps was always right on this. Eli should have been gone January 15th and all that money saved. Maybe even the year before, but is really very hard for a team icon to be summarily dismissed. Yankees did not do it with CC, even extending him when anybody with half of a baseball mind knew he was torched by Oct 2018.

Without having a definite QB in hand, I can understand, a little bit, keeping him this year. But they could have grabbed a less expensive vet to start the year...
RE: Gatorade  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/8/2019 1:06 pm : link
In comment 14669194 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
Close enough I guess. Except I think maybe having a crap team can make any QB look sucky, as we're seeing now with Jones. Personally I think it makes it very difficult to accurately evaluate a quarterback, but I guess you're the expert.

Jones is a rookie who has started seven games. It's ok if he sucks, and it's not all because of the team around him.

Eli is in his 15th season and being paid like a franchise QB - it's not ok for him to suck.

Look at the bright side - if you honestly believe that it's just the supporting cast and not the QB himself that has any responsibility for the team's struggles, then we're in great shape having gotten much younger and cheaper at the QB position and can now focus on using the extra cap room from Eli's contract expiring to build the supporting cast that is the only thing that you're suggesting is holding back Jones the way it held back Eli.

Or, you can be realistic and give some thought to the idea that 22 year old QBs tend to improve, whereas 39 year old QBs tend to decline.
RE: RE: And you seem like a vagina  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 11/8/2019 2:05 pm : link
In comment 14668810 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
In comment 14668796 Tim in VA said:


Quote:


Do you have anything of substance to add to the conversation?



Yeah. Eli isn't the answer. This team would be even worse with him behind center.

Eli isn't a turnover machine. The stat with the greatest correlation to wins is TO difference. Belichik rates a defense (1) Points allowed (so duh people often overlook the fact) (2) TOs (3) Yards.
well here is a reality  
mdc1 : 11/8/2019 6:12 pm : link
it does not matter if Jones has the ability to play at high levels if he fumbles the ball away 2-3 times a game. Can't win with turnovers and those players do not belong on the field if habitual.
RE: well here is a reality  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/8/2019 6:41 pm : link
In comment 14669740 mdc1 said:
Quote:
it does not matter if Jones has the ability to play at high levels if he fumbles the ball away 2-3 times a game. Can't win with turnovers and those players do not belong on the field if habitual.

Weird, but I'm pretty sure we won the SB twice with the QB who had more turnovers than anyone else in the NFL for the length of his career, and led the league in INTs during one of the championship seasons.

I do agree that Jones needs to clean it up, but it's weird to see so many people act like we haven't had turnover issues at QB in the not-so-distant past.
RE: The point is, for the past 2 years  
HomerJones45 : 11/8/2019 6:54 pm : link
In comment 14668782 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
You dipshits bandied about like Eli was holding us back, that those of us complaining about the shit offensive line, shit run game, shit defense and shit coaching were simply making excuses for Eli.

Well you got what you wanted dipshits, now what? Oh....now the offensive line ducks, now the defense sucks, now the coaching sucks.

Way to catch up, dipshits.
Did I mention you're dipshits?
+1. Go get 'em man. They will learn nothing unless someone points out their fallacies.

There are only two reasons great qb's pack it in: they start getting hurt all the time or their arms are gone. Neither applies to Manning and it would not surprise me one bit to see him in Indy or Foxboro or Pittsburgh next season. These guys don't forget how to play qb.
RE: RE: RE: And you seem like a vagina  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/8/2019 6:54 pm : link
In comment 14669456 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:


Eli isn't a turnover machine.


He's still currently the active NFL leader in career fumbles and career interceptions.
RE: RE: And you seem like a vagina  
HomerJones45 : 11/8/2019 7:02 pm : link
In comment 14669285 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14668796 Tim in VA said:


Quote:


Do you have anything of substance to add to the conversation?



You certainly don't.

Terps was always right on this. Eli should have been gone January 15th and all that money saved. Maybe even the year before, but is really very hard for a team icon to be summarily dismissed. Yankees did not do it with CC, even extending him when anybody with half of a baseball mind knew he was torched by Oct 2018.

Without having a definite QB in hand, I can understand, a little bit, keeping him this year. But they could have grabbed a less expensive vet to start the year...
To do what? Let Dave spend it on more Solders, Remmers, Stewarts and Omemahs (or whatever his name was)? Please.

What they should have done is take Josh Allen, let Manning play out his contract and enter the qb bonanza in the next draft. They'd have the money, a qb they could start immediately and a star edge rusher. Instead they spent the Manning money anyway, ended up with Danny Turnover and spent a 3 and 5 in order to pay big dollars to a guy the Jets didn't want any longer.

Someone has to work at it for an organization to be this inept. Amazingly, this is the avenue you are all advocating to take.
RE: RE: RE: RE: And you seem like a vagina  
HomerJones45 : 11/8/2019 7:04 pm : link
In comment 14669770 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14669456 Coach Red Beaulieu said:


Quote:




Eli isn't a turnover machine.



He's still currently the active NFL leader in career fumbles and career interceptions.
When you play 15 years, you are going to accumulate some stats. He's also thrown for 56000 yards and 362 td passes. Wake us all when Danny Turnover gets close.
I can't believe we are still bashing each other over Eli  
.McL. : 11/8/2019 7:16 pm : link
I've said this many times over the past 2 seasons. It really doesn't matter if Eli could still play at a good enough level last year or this year. There was absolutely zero chance that either team was going to be any good.

By the time the rest of the team is good enough to be competitive, Eli will be long done. That makes him irrelevant in any discussion of how to build the team going forward. With the possible exception of having cut him earlier and save the cap money this year. Again, having him or not would not make a significant difference in the team's fortunes. Maybe a draft spot or two if not.
This is the correct take  
IIT : 11/8/2019 8:07 pm : link
Quote:
I've said this many times over the past 2 seasons. It really doesn't matter if Eli could still play at a good enough level last year or this year. There was absolutely zero chance that either team was going to be any good.

By the time the rest of the team is good enough to be competitive, Eli will be long done. That makes him irrelevant in any discussion of how to build the team going forward. With the possible exception of having cut him earlier and save the cap money this year. Again, having him or not would not make a significant difference in the team's fortunes. Maybe a draft spot or two if not.


Trouble is very, very few were framing their objections to Eli this way over the past two years. The vast majority of the mob were the same dipshits Tim is railing about.
RE: This is the correct take  
jcn56 : 11/8/2019 8:24 pm : link
In comment 14669805 IIT said:
Quote:


Quote:


I've said this many times over the past 2 seasons. It really doesn't matter if Eli could still play at a good enough level last year or this year. There was absolutely zero chance that either team was going to be any good.

By the time the rest of the team is good enough to be competitive, Eli will be long done. That makes him irrelevant in any discussion of how to build the team going forward. With the possible exception of having cut him earlier and save the cap money this year. Again, having him or not would not make a significant difference in the team's fortunes. Maybe a draft spot or two if not.



Trouble is very, very few were framing their objections to Eli this way over the past two years. The vast majority of the mob were the same dipshits Tim is railing about.


The majority of complaints about the team sticking with Eli had as much to do with the team's setup as they did with Eli's skill.

The problem is on the other side you had people who were unwilling to consider that maybe Father Time had caught up with Eli, and that the game had changed enough to the point where he just couldn't be effective anymore.

And even after the Giants proved that to be the case one more time, here's another thread pages deep with people still refusing to believe that it's over for Eli, and has been for some time.

Nobody wanted him to get old, the same way nobody wanted to see LT or Strahan go. They all do at some point, and some of them hang on for too long.
RE: And you seem like a vagina  
santacruzom : 11/9/2019 3:36 am : link
Ah, so THAT'S why you find him repugnant.

NTTAWWT.
I didn't expect this to turn into anything other than my  
Bubba : 11/9/2019 7:25 am : link
original question. Just wondering if Jones was the starter from the beginning would, for example, the fumbling issues have been resolved in camp? Similar to the way they fixed Tiki's fumbling when TC and company came on board.

Let's keep the focus on Jones please.
RE: RE: RE: And you seem like a vagina  
section125 : 11/9/2019 7:50 am : link
In comment 14669778 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:


What they should have done is take Josh Allen, let Manning play out his contract and enter the qb bonanza in the next draft. They'd have the money, a qb they could start immediately and a star edge rusher. Instead they spent the Manning money anyway, ended up with Danny Turnover and spent a 3 and 5 in order to pay big dollars to a guy the Jets didn't want any longer.

Someone has to work at it for an organization to be this inept. Amazingly, this is the avenue you are all advocating to take.


That's a brilliant plan...keep putting off that QB debate so you can hope the guy you want is still there in 2020...
Perhaps he would be more comfortable  
ron mexico : 11/10/2019 6:14 am : link
Under center if he got to work with Pio all summer.
RE: RE: You mean like cutting Eli and using that cap  
EricJ : 11/10/2019 6:22 am : link
In comment 14668581 djm said:
Quote:


Get over the fucking Eli money already.


Agree 100%... everyone here is so critical of the money we spend. Still laughing at the critics who want Collins back instead of Peppers.
Seems to be a lot of care-free laughing at a deadbeat  
Jimmy Googs : 11/10/2019 7:48 am : link
2-7 team that is paying a ton of money for whole lot of guys not starting the game in a few hours.

In fact, the only thing this team is a 2019 NFL league leader in is dead money.

So I ask the question, what's so funny?
Back to the Corner