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Remind me why we traded a Day 2 pick for an impending FA

Anakim : 11/10/2019 4:29 pm
Leonard Williams is a fine player. I still think he has potential to be a very good player in this league, but why the fuck would you trade a Day 2 pick WHEN YOU'RE NOT EVEN SNIFFING THE PLAYOFFS? Couple that with the fact that he's going to want big bucks in the offseason...

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but how the hell could ownership sign off on this? It's malpractice. Even if you don't believe in building through the draft, how could you draft ANYTHING, let alone a Day 2 pick, for an impending free agent IN A WASTED SEASON?



Clean the house. Get rid of the coaching staff and front office. Mismanagement all around.
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He's a perfect scheme fit  
AcesUp : 11/10/2019 5:18 pm : link
For our DC that is probably a coin flip to be coaching here in December. Now LW and his agent have the Giants and DG over a barrell to sign him to a top of the market deal when there's a high likelihood we'll be playing in a completely different scheme (and possibly position) next year.

I initially thought that they had backchannelled a contract and he'd be signed shortly after the trade, with this being a vote of confidence for the coaching staff. However, I don't think DG looks at all the angles when making his moves. It's all about the player and he gets tunnel vision. He's a scout.
transition tag  
George from PA : 11/10/2019 5:19 pm : link
Guys, we wont be losing him next year
RE: RE: RE: How about we wait and see if we sign him before judging the trade  
JesseS : 11/10/2019 5:24 pm : link
In comment 14672710 steve in ky said:
Quote:
In comment 14672689 Anakim said:


Quote:


In comment 14672676 steve in ky said:


Quote:


.



I don't care if he balls out for the rest of the season. This team is going nowhere and they NEED draft capital, especially Day 2 picks.


Why couldn't we sign him in free agency? You think whichever team traded for him would franchise him? Williams was sure to hit the open market.



Surely you are smart enough to understand a team that trades for him likely has an inside track at signing him long term.


There's a reason this isn't common practice. Off the top of my head, I just don't recall this happening. Have the Giants found a loophole in acquiring talent or it it likely that other teams don't use draft capital for this for a reason. I'm going with Occam's razor here.
RE: This move looks worse and worse every week.  
Go Terps : 11/10/2019 5:26 pm : link
In comment 14672944 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
Fireable offense??


There have been so many fireable offenses from Gettleman at this point that you have to think he won't be fired.
would YOU sign with the Giants?  
Kanavis : 11/10/2019 5:31 pm : link
After they loose to the Jets? After they get blown out repeatedly playing any of the good teams remaining on the schedule. After they fire Betcher, the person who's scheme you fit.

I wouldn't. I am not sure he will. I don't think this was a good move. If so, you would see better franchises doing this more regularly.

We gave up a 3rd and a 5th for no reason.
RE: How about we wait and see if we sign him before judging the trade  
Justlurking : 11/10/2019 5:32 pm : link
In comment 14672676 steve in ky said:
Quote:
.


Why? Made no sense then, now or ever. Enough with this “how about we wait” bullshit. This franchise is a fucking DISASTER.
RE: It gives the Giants  
jcn56 : 11/10/2019 5:34 pm : link
In comment 14672852 fkap said:
Quote:
to right to be the first team to throw oodles of money at him. It has to be at the higher end of what he thinks he can get in FA, or he won't sign the deal.

Is it really worth a very high 3rd and a likely 4th for that right?

It is a highly questionable trade.

A single 4th, maybe. Not the package given up.


Not even the 4th. What it basically gives them above any other participant in the FA market is the ability to tag him.

Leonard Williams' play to date hasn't been worth a tag of any sort.

You could say that the audition might be worth the 4th - but considering the fact that the team has been lousy with 3rd and 4th round picks forever, a big part of why they currently stink, giving up those two picks for a guy who likely could have been acquired with cash only is ridiculous.
RE: would YOU sign with the Giants?  
mdc1 : 11/10/2019 6:23 pm : link
In comment 14673134 Kanavis said:
Quote:
After they loose to the Jets? After they get blown out repeatedly playing any of the good teams remaining on the schedule. After they fire Betcher, the person who's scheme you fit.

I wouldn't. I am not sure he will. I don't think this was a good move. If so, you would see better franchises doing this more regularly.

We gave up a 3rd and a 5th for no reason.


This is going to become a looming problem in the future if we keep Shurmur and Dave, many do not want to come to the stinch of a losing culture. The NFL should have a website like Glassdoor that allows players to describe their environment as places to work....would be interesting and cut through the BS and facts.

RE: RE: Because they’re going to sign him  
Mr. Bungle : 11/10/2019 6:28 pm : link
In comment 14672712 Stan in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 14672687 Giants in 07 said:


Quote:


.


AND he won't count against FA signings for comp. picks now.

So you cough up draft picks to avoid...not gettimg a draft pick?

Sounds brilliant.
RE: RE: How about we wait and see if we sign him before judging the trade  
steve in ky : 11/10/2019 7:41 pm : link
In comment 14673137 Justlurking said:
Quote:
In comment 14672676 steve in ky said:


Quote:


.



Why? Made no sense then, now or ever. Enough with this “how about we wait” bullshit. This franchise is a fucking DISASTER.


Why should their losing effect ones ability to wait until all information is in prior to forming a final opinion about whether or not a trade was worth it?

I get the frustration but it should negate common sense.
It made no sense  
pjcas18 : 11/10/2019 7:51 pm : link
to make this trade. I was very critical of it and got blasted by the ball washers because of course fans can't possibly know more than the professionals.
Don't be surprised  
Marty866b : 11/10/2019 8:43 pm : link
If (when)Williams doesn't sign with the Giants. Leonard is probably tired of losing and sees their is no future of winning anything with the Giants and will most likely look around fielding offers after the season. Some folks think he will go back to the west coast because he is a USC guy, but, Leonard is actually a Florida kid.
BTW, Gettleman is an idiot. I wish DG nothing but the best of health and to retire to a nice senior community somewhere.
mph  
XBRONX : 11/10/2019 8:47 pm : link
buy some glasses
This..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/10/2019 8:49 pm : link
thread continues the push to over-exaggerate everything.

The term "fireable offense" loses more meaning every time Go Terps uses it.

At this point, it's basically become a compliment, because it is said weekly as if being over the top is somehow supposed to strengthen a point.

Very few GM's or coaches have singular events that are "fireable offenses", especially when seen through the lens of immediate judgment.
RE: This..  
Go Terps : 11/10/2019 8:52 pm : link
In comment 14673853 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
thread continues the push to over-exaggerate everything.

The term "fireable offense" loses more meaning every time Go Terps uses it.

At this point, it's basically become a compliment, because it is said weekly as if being over the top is somehow supposed to strengthen a point.

Very few GM's or coaches have singular events that are "fireable offenses", especially when seen through the lens of immediate judgment.


I don't think you're in any position to talk about any other posters, as wrong as you've been on Gettleman. Might want to just stick to starting threads whining about the refs.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/10/2019 9:01 pm : link
We already have a "right" and "wrong" on Gettleman?

That's part of the fucking problem.

My goal isn't to be right. I'm a fan of the team and want them to succeed. Is throwing invective at everyone in the organization going to change that?

The real truth is that nobody here is right. And people bitching for the past two years that we didn't draft a QB don't earn special points. People saying that Gettleman was a sham hire and here to be a yes man don't get a special reward.

You want a scorecard?? Fuck - you seemingly want to declare winners after the first drive of the game. Using that logic, the Giants had a great first two weeks of the season!

Based on your checklist of "fireable offenses", John Lynch would've been fired last season. That's why immediacy is the folly of morons.
Your Defender of the Faith jacket  
Jimmy Googs : 11/10/2019 9:03 pm : link
must be back from the cleaners...
Yeah I don't understand how you can judge Gettleman yet, PS  
Zeke's Alibi : 11/10/2019 9:03 pm : link
On the other hand its plain as day to me he's a bad coach. I did not get the vibe the Jets were more talented than us, quite the opposite in fact.
RE: LOL..  
Sean : 11/10/2019 9:05 pm : link
In comment 14673897 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
We already have a "right" and "wrong" on Gettleman?

That's part of the fucking problem.

My goal isn't to be right. I'm a fan of the team and want them to succeed. Is throwing invective at everyone in the organization going to change that?

The real truth is that nobody here is right. And people bitching for the past two years that we didn't draft a QB don't earn special points. People saying that Gettleman was a sham hire and here to be a yes man don't get a special reward.

You want a scorecard?? Fuck - you seemingly want to declare winners after the first drive of the game. Using that logic, the Giants had a great first two weeks of the season!

Based on your checklist of "fireable offenses", John Lynch would've been fired last season. That's why immediacy is the folly of morons.


Do you believe Shurmur & Gettleman will be here 3 years from now? We’re they hired with the intention that this was a 5 year plan with no threat of being fired?
If you want the Giants to succeed,  
Go Terps : 11/10/2019 9:07 pm : link
than go whatever you can to get Gettleman the hell out of the building, because he sucks at his job.
*do  
Go Terps : 11/10/2019 9:08 pm : link
.
I believe..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/10/2019 9:10 pm : link
Shurmur will be fired.

I don't think Gettleman should.

I'm not going to re-gurgitate it again, but he inherited a team that had a historic stretch of bad drafts. Not poor ones - drafts that have been considered some of the least successful in NFL history. And yet you still have people saying in year 2 it is all on Gettleman now.

The lack of perspective here is likely out of frustration, but The GM appears to have gotten us a QB and RB to build around. I think he'll have another draft and offseason to do it.
RE: Your Defender of the Faith jacket  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/10/2019 9:11 pm : link
In comment 14673909 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
must be back from the cleaners...


Seeing you still aren't adding anything useful, I assume your jacket with "Security" taped on the back never went to the cleaners....
RE: I believe..  
Sean : 11/10/2019 9:13 pm : link
In comment 14673948 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Shurmur will be fired.

I don't think Gettleman should.

I'm not going to re-gurgitate it again, but he inherited a team that had a historic stretch of bad drafts. Not poor ones - drafts that have been considered some of the least successful in NFL history. And yet you still have people saying in year 2 it is all on Gettleman now.

The lack of perspective here is likely out of frustration, but The GM appears to have gotten us a QB and RB to build around. I think he'll have another draft and offseason to do it.


The concern is the structure. GM & HC should not be 2 separate entities, prospective HC’s will want say in personnel decisions.
They can't just fire Shurmur  
Go Terps : 11/10/2019 9:13 pm : link
No good coach is going to want to work with Gettleman.
And by the way,  
Go Terps : 11/10/2019 9:14 pm : link
Gettleman helped hire Shurmur. How is that not something held against him?

Enough fucking excuses for any of these people already.
RE: They can't just fire Shurmur  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/10/2019 9:15 pm : link
In comment 14673964 Go Terps said:
Quote:
No good coach is going to want to work with Gettleman.


Is this going to be the new narrative that has no evidence behind it??

Ron Rivera had no problem working with Gettleman.
How posters here defend Gettleman  
Marty866b : 11/10/2019 9:16 pm : link
Is beyond ridiculous. This is HIS team. This team has actually gotten worse under this GM which is incredibly difficult to do.
Go Terps has this right.
What narrative would you like to discuss FMiC  
Jimmy Googs : 11/10/2019 9:17 pm : link
what will make you happy on this new BBI?
New narrative?  
Go Terps : 11/10/2019 9:18 pm : link
McDaniels didn't take the job because of Gettleman.

Did Gettleman hire Rivera?
...  
christian : 11/10/2019 9:19 pm : link
Gettleman deserves 3 offseasons.

But if he's had 3 offseasons and 2 head coaches, the Giants need to be deeply in the playoff picture.

By that time he will have 5 1st round picks (3 top 10), 2 2nd round picks, and 4 3rd picks.

He'll have a 2nd year top 10 pick QB, an All Pro RB, and have had 3 consecutive offseasons with plenty of cap space to make big moves.
Googs..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/10/2019 9:20 pm : link
discuss anything that adds to the discussion. Anything.

Several threads now where you've not made a single comment about the topic.

I think you like the current act:
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/10/2019 9:23 pm : link
McDaniels didn't take the job because of Gettleman. He was offered the job??

Is that why Patricia turned down the job too?

Anyone else turned the job down??

Maybe you can give a reason why McDaniels accepted then reneged on the Colts job? The GM too??
RE: ...  
Sean : 11/10/2019 9:24 pm : link
In comment 14673987 christian said:
Quote:
Gettleman deserves 3 offseasons.

But if he's had 3 offseasons and 2 head coaches, the Giants need to be deeply in the playoff picture.

By that time he will have 5 1st round picks (3 top 10), 2 2nd round picks, and 4 3rd picks.

He'll have a 2nd year top 10 pick QB, an All Pro RB, and have had 3 consecutive offseasons with plenty of cap space to make big moves.


So, we fire Shurmur & give Gettleman one more year? What happens if we go 5-11 next year? If we are only going to fire Shurmur, might as well just keep both for 2020. I don’t want to see a situation where we have HC/GM on different schedules.
This thread has gone off topic, but it was about trading  
jcn56 : 11/10/2019 9:24 pm : link
a 3rd and a 4th for the ability to lock up Leonard Williams to a good sized contract.

That particular move is indefensible, IMO - Williams has never lived up to his draft position and the Giants are positioning themselves to pay him well after giving up picks for the rights to do so.

Blowing through those picks was the knock on Reese and why he's not here - and Gettleman hasn't done any better. When he's not giving them away he's drafting guys that haven't done much.
Anything back on those x-rays yet?  
Jimmy Googs : 11/10/2019 9:24 pm : link
.
Listened to the joint  
Ned In Atlanta : 11/10/2019 9:26 pm : link
Jets/Giants Athletic podcast. Connor Hughes (Jets beat writer) predicted Williams would have a good game against the Jets, sign a big deal and then underwhelm. Not a ringing endorsement from someone very familiar with the player. Also, agree 100% with OP. Guys going to be a UFal
RE: ...  
Jimmy Googs : 11/10/2019 9:33 pm : link
In comment 14673987 christian said:
Quote:
Gettleman deserves 3 offseasons.

But if he's had 3 offseasons and 2 head coaches, the Giants need to be deeply in the playoff picture.



Think about how far this team needs to rise up to get "deeply in the playoff picture" in that time frame.

That would be a monumental turnaround.

Not even the Defenders could imagine that...even Mr X-ray.
RE: This thread has gone off topic, but it was about trading  
steve in ky : 11/10/2019 9:36 pm : link
In comment 14674004 jcn56 said:
Quote:
When he's not giving them away he's drafting guys that haven't done much.


I think his drafts have been pretty good.
RE: Listened to the joint  
jcn56 : 11/10/2019 9:36 pm : link
In comment 14674013 Ned In Atlanta said:
Quote:
Jets/Giants Athletic podcast. Connor Hughes (Jets beat writer) predicted Williams would have a good game against the Jets, sign a big deal and then underwhelm. Not a ringing endorsement from someone very familiar with the player. Also, agree 100% with OP. Guys going to be a UFal


The only Jets fan I know that I'd actually listen to said that Williams disappears for long stretches, and that he expected the same. He also predicted that the Jets wouldn't miss him.

They do have other players on the line, but a player worthy of that compensation should leave a noticeable hole in his absence.
RE: Listened to the joint  
bw in dc : 11/10/2019 9:39 pm : link
In comment 14674013 Ned In Atlanta said:
Quote:
Jets/Giants Athletic podcast. Connor Hughes (Jets beat writer) predicted Williams would have a good game against the Jets, sign a big deal and then underwhelm. Not a ringing endorsement from someone very familiar with the player. Also, agree 100% with OP. Guys going to be a UFal


And he's going to get $15M+ per year.

Here's the real problem - we have a decent supply of DLs. Why waste more money on another? It was like a "BPA for trades" move...

There are/were more pressing needs - like the LBs and secondary.

Bottom line is we should have been sellers at the trade deadline. Not buyers.

Just a baffling.
If the team signs Williams  
ghost718 : 11/10/2019 9:45 pm : link
and he continues this type of play

Does it matter?
RE: If the team signs Williams  
bw in dc : 11/10/2019 9:49 pm : link
In comment 14674068 ghost718 said:
Quote:
and he continues this type of play

Does it matter?


Yes. We haven't had an issue with the DL so far. It's been one of the few bright spots on the D.

So why waste money on that position?

Here's an idea - use the money to solve more pressing needs like LB and OL.

I definitely thought Williams played better this week  
Jimmy Googs : 11/10/2019 9:49 pm : link
but I just still don't see letting the draft pick investment go out the door.

DG keeps playing with future collateral while losing at a horrific rate today...
RE: RE: If the team signs Williams  
ghost718 : 11/10/2019 9:54 pm : link
In comment 14674076 bw in dc said:
Yes. We haven't had an issue with the DL so far. It's been one of the few bright spots on the D.

So why waste money on that position?

Here's an idea - use the money to solve more pressing needs like LB and OL.
[/quote]

If it hasn't been an issue they wouldn't have made the move.They had Ximenes,an OLB, playing over the guard a few weeks ago.
RE: RE: RE: If the team signs Williams  
jcn56 : 11/10/2019 10:06 pm : link
In comment 14674091 ghost718 said:
Quote:

If it hasn't been an issue they wouldn't have made the move.They had Ximenes,an OLB, playing over the guard a few weeks ago.


That's assuming competent leadership in the FO - considering the other FA moves they've made, you'd be much better off assuming they're totally incompetent.
...  
christian : 11/10/2019 10:18 pm : link
The Giants picked Hill and McIntosh last year. I'd much have preferred they were given more rope and hopefully turn the corner.

Gettleman has picked a lot of defensive players in the top 100 and only Lawrence is doing well.
Hill and McIntosh  
Marty866b : 11/10/2019 10:21 pm : link
Do nothing. Hill is a major disappointment.
RE: Hill and McIntosh  
christian : 11/10/2019 10:28 pm : link
In comment 14674157 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Do nothing. Hill is a major disappointment.

Absolutely. Just in a lost season I'd rather give him every chance before moving on.
A GM, or a HC  
fkap : 11/10/2019 10:51 pm : link
should get more than 2 years after inheriting a crappy team...
unless they're showing no aptitude for the job.

Shurmur is definitely showing that a good case can be made to move on.

Gettleman, IMO, is not looking all that promising in his first couple of years, but has not been bad enough to dump. I have no confidence in him, but he should get another year or two to see if things show any sign of improvement.
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