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Daniel Jones Fumbling is Insane

BigBlueDownTheShore : 11/10/2019 5:37 pm
He kept us in the game, but he put us farther in a hole with his fumbling.

Sy's evaluation of him has been spot on. He takes forever to read a defense. That's turning into more sacks and fumbles.

The fumbles aren't just normal fumbles either, they are the back-breaking kinds where 7 points are picked up by the opposing teams more times than not.
the crazy thing is Cutcliffe spent about 15 minutes  
Platos : 11/10/2019 5:38 pm : link
in some interview/speech about how strong his hands were.

unbelievable, that prick jinxed us
Sorry but Syís  
Jolly Blue Giant : 11/10/2019 5:40 pm : link
Evaluation was not spot on. Read it again....also, donít confuse WRs not being able to get open with being unable to read defenses.
He takes forever to read a defense  
Big Rick in FL : 11/10/2019 5:40 pm : link
Or he takes time waiting for his shitty WRs to get open?
He still might break Kerryís NFL record of 23  
Vanzetti : 11/10/2019 5:40 pm : link
Even though he was not the QB, the first two games

When you are fumbling at an historically unprecedented rate, it is obviously not just a rookie issue. Itís a problem
Takes forever  
lax counsel : 11/10/2019 5:41 pm : link
To read a defense? Heís hanging in the pocket because it takes take the receivers forever to get an inch of separation, and when they do he finds them. If you want to argue that he needs to navigate the pocket better, fine but itís not lack of reading a defense.
Hes a rookie  
Bigbluebrethren : 11/10/2019 5:41 pm : link
I think the positives far outweigh the negatives.
Solder and Barkley embarrassed themselves on the first and second  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 11/10/2019 5:41 pm : link
fumbles. I have no problem criticizing Jones, but blaming the QB because he can't hold up when someone else shits their pants seems like a missing the real issue.
RE: He still might break Kerryís NFL record of 23  
Big Rick in FL : 11/10/2019 5:42 pm : link
In comment 14673188 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
Even though he was not the QB, the first two games

When you are fumbling at an historically unprecedented rate, it is obviously not just a rookie issue. Itís a problem


Lamar Jackson fumbled 15 times in 9 starts last year. Never heard a word about it. He played on a team with a good OL.
Needs one of these for Christmas  
widmerseyebrow : 11/10/2019 5:42 pm : link
He is one tough mother f-cker...  
bw in dc : 11/10/2019 5:42 pm : link
in the pocket. As they say in boxing, he has a good chin...

the thing I don't see  
huygens20 : 11/10/2019 5:42 pm : link
is urgency when his first 1 or 2 reads go bad


a lot of times you'll see goff, wentz, actally whoever-- doesn't matter


they will preemptively take off or roll out when their second read doesn't produce a throw. they do this because they won't take their eyes off downfield and know where the escape route is while they are still trying to make a play


DJ doesn't do this... he'll just sit in the pocket until he gets blasted.
Eli used to get captain checkdown because that's all he did  
BestFeature : 11/10/2019 5:43 pm : link
Jones doesn't do that and tries to make plays, now he's getting killed for that too.
Jones  
PaulN : 11/10/2019 5:44 pm : link
Is a rookie for Pete's sake, the morons that wanted to blame it all on Eli are back blaming it all on Jones now, LOL. Idiots stay that way.
RE: RE: He still might break Kerryís NFL record of 23  
BestFeature : 11/10/2019 5:44 pm : link
In comment 14673199 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
In comment 14673188 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


Even though he was not the QB, the first two games

When you are fumbling at an historically unprecedented rate, it is obviously not just a rookie issue. Itís a problem



Lamar Jackson fumbled 15 times in 9 starts last year. Never heard a word about it. He played on a team with a good OL.


To be fair he ran a lot and exposed himself to that more. Also, he had a decent team. We're 2-8 so we have to blame someone.
Shurmur panicked  
LauderdaleMatty : 11/10/2019 5:45 pm : link
He needed some more time but it is what it is. Heís got a ton of upsideof they can fix that They needed to draft 3 OL. Not 3 DBs.

This year they need to sign 2 OL at least as well as cluster draft at that position.
His receivers are actually above average  
Vanzetti : 11/10/2019 5:45 pm : link
Tate, Shep, Engram, Slayton and Barkley is a good receiving corps.

Injuries have been an issue. But every team has injuries

Play calling has also been an issue, along with poor pass protection

But he is fumbling at the highest rate n history so it is obviously also a QB problem
On NFLN pre-game show, Mooch was showing the play  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 11/10/2019 5:45 pm : link
in which Dallas forced the fumble last week and returned it for a TD. Tate gets past the LB and snaps his head around because there's a little space between the LB and safety to get the ball. Jones sees it too. He winds up and.... gets hit in the back (fumbles) because Solder can't do his job even remotely well.

There are even more plays out there to be made that simply can't be because the o-line, tight ends, and now the running back can't give him any time.
If they found someone  
MickeyRibs : 11/10/2019 5:47 pm : link
to fix Tiki's fumbling, they can find a competent coach to fix Jones' fumbling as well. Unfortunately, he's not on the staff currently.
BigBlueDownTheShore  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/10/2019 5:47 pm : link
You saw a different game than I did.

Jones isn't taking his time. He's getting hit right away. He got clobbered 10 times officially in this game. Look at the six sacks and they were almost instantly in his face.
RE: BigBlueDownTheShore  
bw in dc : 11/10/2019 5:49 pm : link
In comment 14673226 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Comment deleted from thread 590334You saw a different game than I did.

Jones is taking his time. He's getting hit right away. He got clobbered 10 times officially in this game. Look at the six sacks and they were almost instantly in his face.


No, not instantly. He had time to get rid of the ball on a few of those sacks.
The OL is shit but I think Jones has two main issues  
bigbluescot : 11/10/2019 5:50 pm : link
one you'd hope is rookie mental processing, he's slow at reading the field. You'd expect that, it should get better, it might not but it should improve.

The other issue is while he's mechanically pretty decent, he's got a horrible habit of patting the ball while going through his reads, if a receive is open or becomes open, that patting motion can add half a second or more to his action when he re-cocks to throw. That's putting him in some bad body positions to be tackled.
Jones desperately needs good NFL coaching  
arniefez : 11/10/2019 5:50 pm : link
So does Barkley. If they are both stuck with Shurmur for another year they may never be winning NFL players
it's an issue  
fkap : 11/10/2019 5:51 pm : link
but with anything resembling pass protection, it wouldn't be such a glaring issue.
RE: RE: He still might break Kerryís NFL record of 23  
Vanzetti : 11/10/2019 5:51 pm : link
In comment 14673199 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
In comment 14673188 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


Even though he was not the QB, the first two games

When you are fumbling at an historically unprecedented rate, it is obviously not just a rookie issue. Itís a problem



Lamar Jackson fumbled 15 times in 9 starts last year. Never heard a word about it. He played on a team with a good OL.


He ran the ball 147 times and 12 of his fumbles are listed on running plays, Not really a comparable situation


We will always have people here who don't understand the game...  
EricJ : 11/10/2019 5:51 pm : link
no matter how many years they watch on TV
Its unbeliavable  
Giantfan21 : 11/10/2019 5:52 pm : link
Barkley just had the worst game i have ever seen from a RB including horrible pass blocking that got jones killed and yet the majority of posts are about jones and his fumbles, even though he also threw for 300 yards , 4 TD , was missing his top 2 weapons, had no running game, OL is terrible , and playcalling is atrocious .

Some people are ridiculous . Harping on jones who was the only reason the game was even close and barely a peep about barkley except making excuses for him
RE: RE: BigBlueDownTheShore  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 11/10/2019 5:55 pm : link
In comment 14673235 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14673226 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Comment deleted from thread 590334You saw a different game than I did.

Jones is taking his time. He's getting hit right away. He got clobbered 10 times officially in this game. Look at the six sacks and they were almost instantly in his face.



No, not instantly. He had time to get rid of the ball on a few of those sacks.


This looks pretty GODdamn instantaneous to me.

3 plays into the game
RE: Takes forever  
AcidTest : 11/10/2019 5:57 pm : link
In comment 14673194 lax counsel said:
Quote:
To read a defense? Heís hanging in the pocket because it takes take the receivers forever to get an inch of separation, and when they do he finds them. If you want to argue that he needs to navigate the pocket better, fine but itís not lack of reading a defense.


^This. Nobody gets open.
RE: BigBlueDownTheShore  
AcidTest : 11/10/2019 5:59 pm : link
In comment 14673229 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
You saw a different game than I did.

Jones isn't taking his time. He's getting hit right away. He got clobbered 10 times officially in this game. Look at the six sacks and they were almost instantly in his face.


Also agree. At this point, I'm concerned he'll become David Carr.
Insanity  
Fearless : 11/10/2019 6:00 pm : link
Itís really insanity to think Daniel Jones is THE problem for fumbling so often.

1. After todayís game heís probably leading the league in sacks. He had the 5th highest number of sacks before todayís game, behind Winston, Murray and Flacco before the 6 sacks in the todayís game. Heís also probably played in fewer games. Itís obvious that heís not getting sufficient protection.

2. How can anyone say the reason for his fumbles are heís taking too much time to pickup open receivers when the receiving core heís working with is so weak. The star has become Slayton, a rookie, and the former #1 Shepherd and #2 Tate, and #? Engram have missed several games, and heís working with a receiver that was cut earlier in the year.

3. How can anyone say he fumbles too much, when heís always playing from behind and needs to make things happen playing catch up all the time?



RE: the crazy thing is Cutcliffe spent about 15 minutes  
UConn4523 : 11/10/2019 6:01 pm : link
In comment 14673177 Platos said:
Quote:
in some interview/speech about how strong his hands were.

unbelievable, that prick jinxed us


I donít think hand strength has much to do with it. Heís getting hit a lot from his blind side and heís sticking in there to try and make a play. While admirable he needs to get rid of the ball quicker. That said this offense likely doesnít move forward at all if heís just checking down so itís a bit of a catch 22. We canít run the ball either so I canít get on him that much for trying to make plays.
Shurmur  
BleedBlue76 : 11/10/2019 6:01 pm : link
What baffles me is Shurmur being a so called qb guru and week in week out we see Jones make same mistakes. I just wanna see improvement from Jones. Jones has no pocket po presence
RE: the thing I don't see  
section125 : 11/10/2019 6:02 pm : link
In comment 14673203 huygens20 said:
Quote:
is urgency when his first 1 or 2 reads go bad


a lot of times you'll see goff, wentz, actally whoever-- doesn't matter


they will preemptively take off or roll out when their second read doesn't produce a throw. they do this because they won't take their eyes off downfield and know where the escape route is while they are still trying to make a play


DJ doesn't do this... he'll just sit in the pocket until he gets blasted.


This I believe is correct. He waits far to long to get the ball to the checkdown. By the time he goes there. he either is sacked or the RB is covered with no room to run.
RE: Hes a rookie  
mdc1 : 11/10/2019 6:03 pm : link
In comment 14673197 Bigbluebrethren said:
Quote:
I think the positives far outweigh the negatives.


not in this league.
RE: Solder and Barkley embarrassed themselves on the first and second  
NJ-GMenFan : 11/10/2019 6:04 pm : link
In comment 14673198 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
fumbles. I have no problem criticizing Jones, but blaming the QB because he can't hold up when someone else shits their pants seems like a missing the real issue.


Barkley and Solder did NOT stop the rusher bit ultimately is on him to hold the damn ball. That strip by Adams was pathetic
RE: RE: Solder and Barkley embarrassed themselves on the first and second  
Fearless : 11/10/2019 6:12 pm : link
In comment 14673310 NJ-GMenFan said:
Quote:
In comment 14673198 shockeyisthebest8056 said:


Quote:


fumbles. I have no problem criticizing Jones, but blaming the QB because he can't hold up when someone else shits their pants seems like a missing the real issue.



Barkley and Solder did NOT stop the rusher bit ultimately is on him to hold the damn ball. That strip by Adams was pathetic


Ultimately itís a team game. Ultimately if the protection is breaking down as often as it does with theGiants, the qb will fumble, get sacked or throw an interception. Any qb.
I see other games where the QB is in the pocket with little  
Blue21 : 11/10/2019 6:17 pm : link
pressure or all day to throw as they say. Not so with Jones. Pockets constantly collapses on him very quickly. Are the fumbles his fault? Sure he needs to hang onto the ball but this Oline makes it very difficult for him. I see strip sacks all the time on other teams and I realize not to the extent we see with Jones but his play for a rookie far exceeds what I expected. Get a better oline and we'll see improvement with him.
I'll say this -- his habit  
David B. : 11/10/2019 6:42 pm : link
of using a rhythm pat before he releases the ball is HELPING defenses strip the ball from him.

When DJ decides he's gonna throw it, he takes the left hand off the ball briefly and gives the ball a quick pat before going into his release motion. Today, during that time interval, he got he ball stripped. And it's not the first time. That hitch in his delivery is causing problems because the OL sucks.

He has to LOSE that habit. Keep two hands on the ball, and when it's time to throw it, just rip it -- all in one quick motion.

Some QB mechanics gurus are ok with the rhythm pat. Some QBs can get away with it with better protection, but the Giants don't have that ant it's ultimately better to lose that hitch -- just keep your hands on it, till you're going to throw, then rip it.
This is really insane...  
GiantEgo : 11/10/2019 6:48 pm : link
.
Insanity - ( New Window )
he has fumbling issues  
mphbullet36 : 11/10/2019 6:50 pm : link
but both those fumbles were on barkley. I know he's the golden boy and can do no wrong but he was obliterated twice by Adams and maybe Jones is assuming those blitzes get picks up.

Barkley is an amazing talent but if he's playing hurt its clearly showing right now because he doesn't look good at the moment.
One thing I hated about Eli in the past 2-3 seasons was  
CT Charlie : 11/10/2019 6:53 pm : link
how he went down early and often. But clearly it was a defense mechanism to keep him from getting the ball stripped or just getting crushed. Earlier in his career, he was willing to stand tall for longer, but as the OL got worse, Eli adapted. Sadly, Jones will need to learn to hit the ground quicker, too.
RE: I'll say this -- his habit  
Zeke's Alibi : 11/10/2019 6:59 pm : link
In comment 14673405 David B. said:
Quote:
of using a rhythm pat before he releases the ball is HELPING defenses strip the ball from him.

When DJ decides he's gonna throw it, he takes the left hand off the ball briefly and gives the ball a quick pat before going into his release motion. Today, during that time interval, he got he ball stripped. And it's not the first time. That hitch in his delivery is causing problems because the OL sucks.

He has to LOSE that habit. Keep two hands on the ball, and when it's time to throw it, just rip it -- all in one quick motion.

Some QB mechanics gurus are ok with the rhythm pat. Some QBs can get away with it with better protection, but the Giants don't have that ant it's ultimately better to lose that hitch -- just keep your hands on it, till you're going to throw, then rip it.


Good post and while I agree, thats tough to coach out of guys. I'd say the vast majority of fumbles are primarily a strength issue though, for the most part he does a good job of keeping two hands on the ball fairly high.
RE: he has fumbling issues  
since1925 : 11/10/2019 7:00 pm : link
In comment 14673423 mphbullet36 said:
Quote:
but both those fumbles were on barkley. I know he's the golden boy and can do no wrong but he was obliterated twice by Adams and maybe Jones is assuming those blitzes get picks up.

Barkley is an amazing talent but if he's playing hurt its clearly showing right now because he doesn't look good at the moment.


He fumbled a perfect snap. He was lucky to get it back. That was Barkley's fault?
Itís gotten so bad with the fumbling itís almost funny  
Jim in Forest Hills : 11/10/2019 7:00 pm : link
Stared with the strip sack

Then when heís running

Now he got pickpocketed

Next week, expect a defender to just take the handoff from Danny
Phi Simms fumbled at a historic rate in 1985..  
BillKo : 11/10/2019 7:16 pm : link
.....it happens. It was corrected.

But it's something work on for DJ, no doubt.

However, anyone who thinks most of these fumbles aren't breakdowns in the blocking scheme......I mean, DJ has guys on him before he's getting to that 2nd and 3rd read.

Those last two drives, what really was he supposed to do?

RE: RE: he has fumbling issues  
BillKo : 11/10/2019 7:18 pm : link
In comment 14673452 since1925 said:
Quote:
In comment 14673423 mphbullet36 said:


Quote:


but both those fumbles were on barkley. I know he's the golden boy and can do no wrong but he was obliterated twice by Adams and maybe Jones is assuming those blitzes get picks up.

Barkley is an amazing talent but if he's playing hurt its clearly showing right now because he doesn't look good at the moment.



He fumbled a perfect snap. He was lucky to get it back. That was Barkley's fault?


Nope, and he threw it away which was a good play that started as bad one.
RE: I'll say this -- his habit  
NikkiMac : 11/10/2019 7:33 pm : link
In comment 14673405 David B. said:
Quote:
of using a rhythm pat before he releases the ball is HELPING defenses strip the ball from him.

When DJ decides he's gonna throw it, he takes the left hand off the ball briefly and gives the ball a quick pat before going into his release motion. Today, during that time interval, he got he ball stripped. And it's not the first time. That hitch in his delivery is causing problems because the OL sucks.

He has to LOSE that habit. Keep two hands on the ball, and when it's time to throw it, just rip it -- all in one quick motion.

Some QB mechanics gurus are ok with the rhythm pat. Some QBs can get away with it with better protection, but the Giants don't have that ant it's ultimately better to lose that hitch -- just keep your hands on it, till you're going to throw, then rip it.


Exactly .......
RE: Itís gotten so bad with the fumbling itís almost funny  
Danny Dimes : 11/10/2019 7:38 pm : link
In comment 14673453 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
Stared with the strip sack

Then when heís running

Now he got pickpocketed

Next week, expect a defender to just take the handoff from Danny


True. And the one the Jets challenged towards the end...that's gatta be the worse looking fumble if it was overturned
...  
christian : 11/10/2019 7:59 pm : link
This is one of those situations where it takes a lot of things going wrong to be this bad:

1) The Giants have a lot of straight line speed at the skill positions, but no experienced outside or downfield threats

2) The pass from every level is garbage

3) Jones has a fumbling problem
RE: RE: He still might break Kerryís NFL record of 23  
Nine-Tails : 11/10/2019 8:19 pm : link
In comment 14673199 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
In comment 14673188 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


Even though he was not the QB, the first two games

When you are fumbling at an historically unprecedented rate, it is obviously not just a rookie issue. Itís a problem



Lamar Jackson fumbled 15 times in 9 starts last year. Never heard a word about it. He played on a team with a good OL.


Some just want to point at every mistake to pump their chest and go see he's a bust.
RE: His receivers are actually above average  
Nine-Tails : 11/10/2019 8:21 pm : link
In comment 14673221 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
Tate, Shep, Engram, Slayton and Barkley is a good receiving corps.

Injuries have been an issue. But every team has injuries

Play calling has also been an issue, along with poor pass protection

But he is fumbling at the highest rate n history so it is obviously also a QB problem


Well they never all played together and we dont even use Barkley in the passing game, so moot point
Holy shit  
Giants in 07 : 11/10/2019 8:22 pm : link
People really have no idea what they are watching
RE: RE: RE: He still might break Kerryís NFL record of 23  
PatersonPlank : 11/10/2019 8:25 pm : link
In comment 14673775 Nine-Tails said:
Quote:
In comment 14673199 Big Rick in FL said:


Quote:


In comment 14673188 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


Even though he was not the QB, the first two games

When you are fumbling at an historically unprecedented rate, it is obviously not just a rookie issue. Itís a problem



Lamar Jackson fumbled 15 times in 9 starts last year. Never heard a word about it. He played on a team with a good OL.



Some just want to point at every mistake to pump their chest and go see he's a bust.


Most of us really like Jones. However this is nothing wrong with pointing out he needs to stop fumbling. Its pretty obvious. I don't understand why some here attack anyone who says anything negative about the kid.
Jones  
Marty866b : 11/10/2019 8:28 pm : link
Has good straight line speed but he doesn't see the rush, slide in the pocket, or do a very good job of getting away a player of his athleticism you would hope,could do. I know the line is crap, the receivers don't get much separation but I'd like to see something really special in Jones play. I think it's just too difficult his performance right now in this shitfest. One big positive about him, he's as tough as I have ever seen. Reminds me Simms the way he would just hang in there and take one hellacious hit after another.
RE: RE: RE: RE: He still might break Kerryís NFL record of 23  
Nine-Tails : 11/10/2019 8:30 pm : link
In comment 14673791 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
In comment 14673775 Nine-Tails said:


Quote:


In comment 14673199 Big Rick in FL said:


Quote:


In comment 14673188 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


Even though he was not the QB, the first two games

When you are fumbling at an historically unprecedented rate, it is obviously not just a rookie issue. Itís a problem



Lamar Jackson fumbled 15 times in 9 starts last year. Never heard a word about it. He played on a team with a good OL.



Some just want to point at every mistake to pump their chest and go see he's a bust.



Most of us really like Jones. However this is nothing wrong with pointing out he needs to stop fumbling. Its pretty obvious. I don't understand why some here attack anyone who says anything negative about the kid.


I agree there. Jones has some flaws and I'm concerned about how they're continuing. Points to a coaching problem as well

But on the game thread look at the posts after he fumbles, it gets real bad
The Adams fumble  
hitdog42 : 11/10/2019 8:35 pm : link
Was mostly because Hernandez got walked back right into Jones lane to step up. For a guy that is supposed to be strong he got mauled
RE: Jones  
M.S. : 11/10/2019 8:53 pm : link
In comment 14673797 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Has good straight line speed but he doesn't see the rush, slide in the pocket, or do a very good job of getting away a player of his athleticism you would hope,could do. I know the line is crap, the receivers don't get much separation but I'd like to see something really special in Jones play. I think it's just too difficult his performance right now in this shitfest. One big positive about him, he's as tough as I have ever seen. Reminds me Simms the way he would just hang in there and take one hellacious hit after another.

You hit the nail on the head!

If his pocket presence doesn't improve, and if he doesn't learn to feel/see pressure and continues to stand there like a statue with his eyes glued downfield... well, then, IMO he will become a journeyman QB. And the Giants will be set back another 3-5 years.
RE: RE: Hes a rookie  
Bigbluebrethren : 11/10/2019 9:43 pm : link
In comment 14673308 mdc1 said:
Quote:
In comment 14673197 Bigbluebrethren said:


Quote:
I'm lost on what you mean here.

I think the positives far outweigh the negatives.



not in this league.
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