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Jones this, Jones that... the DEFENSE sucks

Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/10/2019 5:50 pm
It gave up 27 points to the Jets.

Again, 27 points to the Jets.

No turnovers. Again.

As predicted, we got Sam Darnold back on his feet.
It’s unbelievable how bad they are  
Jim in Forest Hills : 11/10/2019 5:51 pm : link
It’s hard to watch
Been the story of the season.  
Emil : 11/10/2019 5:52 pm : link
Bettcher can’t possibly survive can he?


Oh, and the Run Blocking is atrocious!!
RE: Been the story of the season.  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/10/2019 5:52 pm : link
In comment 14673255 Emil said:
Quote:
Bettcher can’t possibly survive can he?


Oh, and the Run Blocking is atrocious!!


Our running backs rushed for 3 yards. THREE.
It is absolutely true...  
EricJ : 11/10/2019 5:52 pm : link
this team could have won a few more games despite our horrible OL IF the defense was just mediocre
Beyond sucks  
AnnapolisMike : 11/10/2019 5:53 pm : link
This is one of the worst defenses I have seen. And it should not be, that is the problem.
Jones is the only guy on the team  
Justlurking : 11/10/2019 5:53 pm : link
Who doesn’t suck. He is getting killed and making plays.
They stripped it bare and forgot that in a pass first league  
jcn56 : 11/10/2019 5:54 pm : link
you actually need pass rushers. Go figure.
Bettecher  
NewBlue : 11/10/2019 5:54 pm : link
Is not coordinating anything......I think the players are unsure of their responsibilities and this late in the season there is no excuse for this, they actually seem to be getting worse as the year goes on.
People are desperate for silver linings,  
Go Terps : 11/10/2019 5:55 pm : link
and yeah I guess Jones looks good... But it doesn't matter.

There is no silver lining. This organization is dysfunctional and incapable of operating in the modern day NFL.
RE: RE: Been the story of the season.  
Emil : 11/10/2019 5:55 pm : link
In comment 14673258 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14673255 Emil said:


Quote:


Bettcher can’t possibly survive can he?


Oh, and the Run Blocking is atrocious!!



Our running backs rushed for 3 yards. THREE.


Please don’t say it out loud! It hurts too much.

So is it scheme or OL talent??? How many runs out of shotgun can you run for negative yards before you cut it out and put the QB under center.
I think it is pretty obvious as this point  
Red Dog : 11/10/2019 5:58 pm : link
that the entire coaching staff has to go.

McGaughey is the only one with any shred of positivity this season, and his units have turned down in recent weeks.
are betcher's position coordinators  
mdc1 : 11/10/2019 5:58 pm : link
his guys or is the typical patchwork quilt of unknowns and nobodies that make it impossible to get on the same page. Couple that with what could dumbasses that cannot communicate among themselves with what I have heard to be a complicated scheme and you have a disaster.
As soon as the Giants got the lead  
McNally's_Nuts : 11/10/2019 5:59 pm : link
at 27-21 they just went into an offensive and defensive shell.

Pathetic Excuse For Supposed  
Bernie : 11/10/2019 5:59 pm : link
Ogletree and Bethea are done. The vaunted D-Line that is full of 1st and 2nd round draft picks act like they would break out in a rash if they controlled the line of scrimmage. And the young defensive backs cover as if they will catch the flu if they get too close to the opposition receivers. I'm nauseous once again after watching that farce.

Hey John, is the team making progress?
I never thought I'd see a worse Giants defense than  
truebluelarry : 11/10/2019 5:59 pm : link
the one they fielded in 2015, but this 2019 unit flat out blows. Can't cover, can't tackle, can't force a takeaway, they barely slow the opposition down. It comes down to hoping the other team makes a mistake and beats themselves.

I am so glad next week is a bye, I need the break as badly as they do.
RE: People are desperate for silver linings,  
Justlurking : 11/10/2019 6:00 pm : link
In comment 14673271 Go Terps said:
Quote:
and yeah I guess Jones looks good... But it doesn't matter.

There is no silver lining. This organization is dysfunctional and incapable of operating in the modern day NFL.


100%. But hopefully they did one thing right.
We gave up 30+ not 27  
GiantTuff1 : 11/10/2019 6:02 pm : link
But the defense does suck.

Love how we give the games away trailing 14-0 every single week.
Eric, In Your View  
Trainmaster : 11/10/2019 6:03 pm : link
all of the items listed below are factors, but how much of the woes of the defense this season are due to:


1) Inexperience among the multiple rookies on the DL and secondary?
2) Lack of talent in the linebacking corps?
3) Poor defensive design, playcalling and lack of adjustments?



Issue 1) somewhat gets solved "organically" as rookies gain more experience (i.e. doesn't need more talent or a coaching change)

Issue 2) gets solved with new players by free agency and / or new draft picks

Issue 3) only gets solved with a DC or HC & DC change



I think issue 3) is the most serious issue and will be with us all year unless there is a mid-season firing(s). Issue 2) is with us all year. Issue 1) may get better as the season progresses (e.g. Lawrence, Ximenes, Baker, Ballentine, Beal and Love get more playing time and experience).

Don't worry though - they gave up a 3rd and a 4th  
jcn56 : 11/10/2019 6:03 pm : link
for the right to pay Leonard Williams $14M a year.
Still rebuilding .....  
short lease : 11/10/2019 6:06 pm : link

need talent on both sides. The DL seems to be ahead of the OL though.

Not saying much.


We need a couple more drafts where we pick in the top 5.


I also think that some guys (who have brilliant football minds) .... are just not born leaders and make batter co-ordinators.

Not saying Parcells didn't know his Football but, his genius (imo) was motivation. He could get his guys to run through a wall for him. Belechick is the same way. He intimidates with his silence. The Patriots are not the most talented team ever. How can they be when they draft 31 or 32 every year? But, they work hard to be perfect - because they are afraid of little Bill.

Not sure Shurmur has that quality. I don't think they hate Shurmur but, they sure do not seem afraid of him.
RE: We gave up 30+ not 27  
LarmerTJR : 11/10/2019 6:06 pm : link
Well, no. The defense did not give up the sack/fumble return for a TD, so they gave up 27 points.

In comment 14673300 GiantTuff1 said:
Quote:
But the defense does suck.

Love how we give the games away trailing 14-0 every single week.
How do you think the OLINE played?  
giantstock : 11/10/2019 6:07 pm : link
They played against a lousy defense. What are we going to say when they get shutdown coldly vs a good defense?
Honestly, that 2009 defense was BAD and may have been the worst  
BestFeature : 11/10/2019 6:07 pm : link
I've seen, but this is close. Only reason we're not giving up as many points is I feel like our offense is actually playing better. That team would lose by like 30 on a weekly basis is seemed.
New guys have not helped like we had hoped  
Vanzetti : 11/10/2019 6:09 pm : link
Lawrence started off well but his play has
Leveled off

Peppers plays hard but takes himself out of plays

Baker is just a bad player. Dumb and gives little effort too often

Big Leonard has flashed but not consistent. Ditto for Carter.

BJ fell off a cliff

Thought they got good pressure on Darnold  
UberAlias : 11/10/2019 6:10 pm : link
And shit down Bell. Darnold played well.
Need Linebackers badly and safety  
giantstock : 11/10/2019 6:11 pm : link
Got to have both. If you go to a 3-4 our linebackers are NOTHING.

Thank God we traded for Ogeltree (sarcasm). And I'm psyched Solder has been such a big help (s...).
Run the ball. Nope  
Les in TO : 11/10/2019 6:13 pm : link
Stop the run. Nope
Rush the passer. Nope
On average  
Sy'56 : 11/10/2019 6:15 pm : link
It took the Jets 3 games to score over 26 points this season.
The defense  
WillVAB : 11/10/2019 6:16 pm : link
Has talent to build around. They shouldn’t look this bad on a weekly basis.
RE: The defense  
jcn56 : 11/10/2019 6:18 pm : link
In comment 14673348 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Has talent to build around. They shouldn’t look this bad on a weekly basis.


Bettcher had a good D in Arizona. It's possible they overachieved, but it's a lot more likely the talent he's dealing with here just isn't very good.
I think the Giants  
AcesUp : 11/10/2019 6:18 pm : link
have the 2nd or 3rd lowest cap allocation alloted to their defense in the entire NFL and the guys juicing that number up are Ogletree and Jenkins.

You get what you pay for.
Actually  
AcesUp : 11/10/2019 6:20 pm : link
I'm fairly certain we have more allocated to dead money and the bench than we do to our defense.
The 2-4-5 does suck  
idiotsavant : 11/10/2019 6:24 pm : link
And especially with mediocre or smaller linebackers. I mean, they swarmed ok at times...I just think it's too easy to run on once you get a guard on an ogletree, for example. That should not happen .

I don't know how you don't put the bigs out there, when it's possibly our only decent unit, the actual D tackles.

But there's a reason we wanted ILBs and free safeties early and often last years draft. It's glaring.

The weak corner play from rookies - I can live with, presuming there's some simplification in assignments and better preparation going forward.

But how they ignore free safety for 30 years is just a mystery.

DG has some  
Gmen703 : 11/10/2019 6:29 pm : link
Explaining to do. I mean, these are his guys on defense. Hand selected, draft-pick traded, FA acquisitions.
Between the defense and the offensive line...  
JohnG in Albany : 11/10/2019 6:31 pm : link
It's like watching a three and a half hour car crash with no air bags.
Both on offense and defense  
idiotsavant : 11/10/2019 6:31 pm : link
It seems like high risk high reward systems. Which reeks of a lack of humility.

One thing about the shanny stuff I've been ranting about since before macdoo. It's humble enough to admit that you want to raise the floor by leveraging system to enhance less that stellar players.

High floor low ceiling.

Whereas we rip off amazing plays once in a while going back to gilbrude but when it all doesn't line up perfectly it doesn't function.

Low floor high ceiling .
Persinaliy  
idiotsavant : 11/10/2019 6:37 pm : link
I'd prefer high floor low ceiling system centric offense (shanny) or running QB version of that (Ravens) or heavy rpo system with actual runs..even if it's gimmicky and only lasts a few years.

Because while that's going you can draft the fuck outta your defense.

Contrast that with a system that's nearly i.posdible to do on OL (our Packers lite system since forever) and all the wasted assets that entails including draft.
On a day where  
gmenatlarge : 11/10/2019 6:40 pm : link
SB gets ONE FREAKING YARD on 13 carries, you’re gonna blame just the defense, this is 9ne terrible team all around!
RE: On a day where  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/10/2019 6:41 pm : link
In comment 14673399 gmenatlarge said:
Quote:
SB gets ONE FREAKING YARD on 13 carries, you’re gonna blame just the defense, this is 9ne terrible team all around!


Yes, I am clearly blaming just the defense. (sarcasm off)
...  
christian : 11/10/2019 6:43 pm : link
Of the starting players under contract next year, these are core players who I think will be part of the next playoff appearance:

Lawrence
Tomlinson
Peppers
Baker
Ballentine

Williams and Golden are targets to retain.

I believe the Giants upgrades of 3 new linebackers, 1 corner, and free safety from the regular starters this year.

Maybe some of those guys are on the roster, but scarily maybe not.

Two years into a rebuild this is concerning.
RE: RE: The defense  
WillVAB : 11/10/2019 6:46 pm : link
In comment 14673353 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14673348 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Has talent to build around. They shouldn’t look this bad on a weekly basis.



Bettcher had a good D in Arizona. It's possible they overachieved, but it's a lot more likely the talent he's dealing with here just isn't very good.


I like the DL and the secondary flashes. The DL is getting good push vs the run and pass. The LBs suck and the secondary can’t cover slot receivers but the defense overall shouldn’t be this bad. This is ‘15 level bad and that defense was terrible everywhere.

This coaching staff is getting the least out of its players.
To be fair...  
bw in dc : 11/10/2019 6:56 pm : link
the D only gave up 27 points. ;)

The Adams play shouldn't count against the D. They really need to carve those types of plays out of defensive stats. It's just a truer way to assess points actually allowed...
You cannot have it all.  
idiotsavant : 11/10/2019 6:56 pm : link
1. Free agency:

I'd be going center and or right tackle and or one more decent system wr via free agency.

2. You need a totally different offensive method to enhance OL outcomes. No more Packers lite madness expecting different outcomes.

3. Draft:

TWO.. TWO...very speedy FREE safeties.

The rare Blue goose ILB (actually pass defends and also doesn't get pushed around up front ..rare and fast, possibly move Carter to.
ilb as well.if you get an edge player' in the draft)

An edge. (Resign golden and williams)

A big assed 280lb blocking tight end suitable for heavy zone run blocking assignments
Slot also  
idiotsavant : 11/10/2019 7:06 pm : link
Problem is that whereas JJ could play slit he's a little small vs the run.

And the other slot guy is no good vs pass and yet can tackle rbs. So the idea with drafting 2 or 3 great free safeties is one is a slot pd/run D hybrid type.

Your deep free safety. Your slit free safety corner hybrid and your lb/s hybrid but not the jag version we have now . The blue goose one size and speed combo

Ballentine looks more like an outside man cover type , not a twitchy hops inside pd player.
Eric, there's a lot of blame to go around...  
gmen4ever : 11/10/2019 7:11 pm : link
but not once in any game I have seen from the Giants this year, nor many in recent years, has the defense held and dominated consistently when the game was on the line. Today, playing a team that was as bad as the Jets we should have held them to much less than 27 points (measured against their offense). The fact that we didn't points squarely at defensive scheme, personnel (talent and execution) and play calling. Betcher needs to go and likely Shurmur. If the ownership doesn't make these changes, we are doomed to sub 500 foot ball for many more years unfortunately.
Betcher  
cjac : 11/10/2019 7:13 pm : link
Has got to get fired tomorrow right?

You can’t keep this guy as the DC
The D is absolutely horrible, most notably  
Matt M. : 11/10/2019 7:20 pm : link
the back 7. At some point, is a coach going to tell Baker to turn around and look for the ball? He had good coverage, but never turned for the ball. It was a ticky tack penalty, but if turned his head, no flag. Both Bethea and Peppers are liabilities in coverage and Bethea has missed a ton of tackles.

They need 2 Safeties, better LBs, and an entirely new defensive coaching staff.

On the other side of the ball, 3 OL. It is ridiculous how they have gotten worse, not better, as the season has gone on.
Considering the 3 OL  
Daniel in MI : 11/10/2019 10:12 pm : link
out, the passing game was almost competent until the end. The run game was a disaster and there felt like nothing creative was being done to try and right that ship.

But the D has just been pathetic, game in and game out. We're constantly behind. When we finally get a lead, we give it back asap. We don't cover, we don't stop the run consistently, and we are inconsistent with the pass rush.

I honestly can't remember a D this bad for this long.
Considering the 3 OL  
Daniel in MI : 11/10/2019 10:12 pm : link
out, the passing game was almost competent until the end. The run game was a disaster and there felt like nothing creative was being done to try and right that ship.

But the D has just been pathetic, game in and game out. We're constantly behind. When we finally get a lead, we give it back asap. We don't cover, we don't stop the run consistently, and we are inconsistent with the pass rush.

I honestly can't remember a D this bad for this long.
It all sucks atm  
Torrag : 11/10/2019 10:15 pm : link
Offense, defense and special teams as well. Usually it's a coaching issue when things get this ugly across the board and that's the case this time around as well.
RE: RE: RE: The defense  
jcn56 : 11/10/2019 10:18 pm : link
In comment 14673411 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14673353 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 14673348 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Has talent to build around. They shouldn’t look this bad on a weekly basis.



Bettcher had a good D in Arizona. It's possible they overachieved, but it's a lot more likely the talent he's dealing with here just isn't very good.



I like the DL and the secondary flashes. The DL is getting good push vs the run and pass. The LBs suck and the secondary can’t cover slot receivers but the defense overall shouldn’t be this bad. This is ‘15 level bad and that defense was terrible everywhere.

This coaching staff is getting the least out of its players.


The DL is getting good push? No, it's not - and the opponent's passer rating is 104, good for 27th overall. Yards per rush? Mediocre, coming in at 15th overall.

The LBs are terrible - but they're made to look worse because backs are making it to the second level cleanly. The lack of a pass rush is making a bad secondary look worse.

Overall - the defensive talent on the team is horrendous. Bettcher is probably no better than average as a DC, but hand him crap for talent and you're going to get crap back.
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