I am asking this because I am seeing a lot of people saying we need to immediately fire both, but not a single person has provided us with any realistic alternative. Meaning, a coach and GM who are available and who would be an upgrade vs who we have now.
So, now is your chance to make that John Mara decision and make your selection.
Who do you want? The choices cannot already be employed as a GM or head coach.
But even more critical than the names is that the structure must be overhauled.
The staff, and system, blows.
The arrow is pointing downward.
It had to be pointing upwards at the end of 2019 and there's no way that's happening now.
Chuck Pagano
Mike Munchak
Leslie Frazier
As GM. I actually like Gettleman and his approach. But I’ve always been intrigued with Todd McShay ability to be a GM. I like talent evaluators.
They need a new HC with the autonomy to bring in his own staff. I’d prefer a defensive minded HC — the DC from SF or maybe Ricard from Dallas. I wouldn’t mind Roman out of Baltimore either.
Neither Macadoo not the shurm believe in using line run action to improve line outcomes on pass plays.
That's the antiquated Achilles heel of the past so many years and broadly speaking where to start, even if not the shanny tree, at least a head coach and OC who get that concept broadly speaking.
Off the top of my head, I believe SF, Seattle, and Oakland have essentially all done that.
Pass hard, his passing offense is straight out of the 80's.
Matt Eberflus
Robert Saleh
Give HC free reign to locate a GM other than themself who HC can work with to build the franchise
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...have picked their own GM?
Off the top of my head, I believe SF, Seattle, and Oakland have essentially all done that.
Gase
He is also a crappy HC who has benefited from a great OL and Defensive Coordinator to feast on NFC East. His team was the only other one to lose to the Jets
He has to go. He is so bad.
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In comment 14673492 BillKo said:
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...have picked their own GM?
Off the top of my head, I believe SF, Seattle, and Oakland have essentially all done that.
Gase
Oakland has it because of the name, Gruden.
San Fran has made it work.
Are we sure Carrol has that choice when he was first there? I tend to doubt it.....he sorta made his mark as his tenure went on there.
Gase? F'ing joke to let a guy like that pick.
I guess the point is, only 4 of 32 teams are doing it.........
I don't agree with giving a HC that sorta power unless he's an established guy with a winning history.
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Pass hard, his passing offense is straight out of the 80's.
He won a Super Bowl only a few years ago. That's good enough for me.
Something like this makes sense.
Giving a young college guy full control I believe is not prudent at all.
The first issue is, guy feels the pressure and bolts back to college, you're screwed.
You need a solid GM. I think DG is the guy - and just because he picked the wrong coach - doesn't mean he can't pick the right one next time.
He probably looked at Shurmur as a guy who could go to school on what he did wrong in Cleveland and get it right this time..........obviously, that's not happening and he needs to be fired.
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...have picked their own GM?
Off the top of my head, I believe SF, Seattle, and Oakland have essentially all done that.
KC. Remember Reid got Dorsey fired in the power struggle over the roster. O’Brien won a power struggle in Houston. Kingsbury basically has de facto power in Arizona now over Keim with his shaky status and with being able to be going to ownership.
Pats obviously are another with Belichick and his crew. Peyton has a lot of influence now and larger share of decision making power in NO.
The Giants are operating like it’s 1985.
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In comment 14673492 BillKo said:
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...have picked their own GM?
Off the top of my head, I believe SF, Seattle, and Oakland have essentially all done that.
KC. Remember Reid got Dorsey fired in the power struggle over the roster. O’Brien won a power struggle in Houston. Kingsbury basically has de facto power in Arizona now over Keim with his shaky status and with being able to be going to ownership.
Pats obviously are another with Belichick and his crew. Peyton has a lot of influence now and larger share of decision making power in NO.
The point here, most of those guys mentioned have LONG legacies.
If you do it that way, hire that type of guy.
But, who like that is really avaiable?
Matt Rhule
Greg Roman
I wouldn't even go looking for the next big thing coordinator-wise. I'd find someone who's good at management (I think this is why so many people point to former ST coaches as highly effective HCs). Give them the keys, get them to hire coordinators, some scouts that know what kind of players they're looking for, and make them fully accountable. Here's 3 years - if you aren't making progress you're not getting a 4th (or seeing all 3 if you're moving backwards).
The football lifecycle is too short now - careers are relatively short, roster turnover is high in FA. There's no sense in having a GM up top looking after the long term health of the franchise anymore, because it can all change within a season or two. The stability offered by having a separated GM/HC structure has been offset by the instability introduced by miscommunication and lack of coordination on the vision.
If the Giants share your mentality they'll never get out of the cellar.
Matt, totally agree.
You need that hierarchy and chain of command.
My feeling is, we are looking for something outside the box because of our situation from 2013 thru current.
To me, a SYSTEM and STAFF are the most imporant things to winning football games.
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Second, I don't love every move Gettleman has made. But his drafts have been strong and he at least accomplished gutting this roster. Now, we need an entirely new coaching staff and Mara nowhere near the personnel.
Matt, totally agree.
You need that hierarchy and chain of command.
My feeling is, we are looking for something outside the box because of our situation from 2013 thru current.
To me, a SYSTEM and STAFF are the most imporant things to winning football games.
Where are these solid drafts coming from? If they happened, and these rookie and 1 year vet players are solid, why the hell is the team as bad as it is?
You guys are going on paper, not results. So far, Gettleman's results have been awful, with his former strength of selecting FAs being even worse than his drafts. Preserving this hierarchy just means more losing.
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but also a few BS responses like BB and others who are already head coaches with other teams.
If the Giants share your mentality they'll never get out of the cellar.
You just don't understand my thoughts on this. It is easy to say fire the coach or GM but you need a plan. I mean, we get on the team's leadership for making it seem like they dont have a plan for the team. So, if you are going to fire these two guys, I want to hear your plan first.
Surely you have one right? Which two guys are out there right now who will do a better job if we fire both before this Sunday?
And anybody who thinks Todd McShay is a good talent evaluator must believe in fairies and the Great Pumpkin. McShay is the fucking pits.
John Fox
Wade Phillips
And have an OC that removes runs from the shotgun from the playbook. Insert play action passes and pitches to the running back. Learn to execute screen plays. Lean to tackle. Go back to a 4-3. Actually have a fullback that can block.
Stop having cornerbacks ten yards off the line of scrimmage. Draft in the first two rounds competent OL ,DE & LB players.
Get back the NY Giants roots D-fence!!!!
John Fox
Wade Phillips
And have an OC that removes runs from the shotgun from the playbook. Insert play action passes and pitches to the running back. Learn to execute screen plays. Lean to tackle. Go back to a 4-3. Actually have a fullback that can block.
Stop having cornerbacks ten yards off the line of scrimmage. Draft in the first two rounds competent OL ,DE & LB players.
I think John Fox is done coaching. My opinion anyway. I am okay with Pepper or Wade as the DC, not the head coach.
I am surprised nobody said Jim Harbaugh yet.
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In comment 14673520 Anakim said:
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Pass hard, his passing offense is straight out of the 80's.
He won a Super Bowl only a few years ago. That's good enough for me.
Are you serious? That was one of the best defenses in this Era.
If that doesn't work? Go outside the comforts of this organization. Hire a consultant, that isn't a former employee, to help you identify somebody like Bill and give him the keys to build the whole thing. A single chain of command that is responsible for all hires and is solely accountable for the teams success and failures. Change the way this organization is structured because the insulated personnel vs coaching departments is antiquated and outdated.
Get a coach who wears both hats...
Get a coach who wears both hats...
When has that ever worked? It is hard enough to do one job well let alone both. Not to mention GM/HC combinations tend to get too attached to the players they brought in because they don’t want to look like a fool for bringing in those guys.
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the separate GM and HC positions.
Get a coach who wears both hats...
When has that ever worked? It is hard enough to do one job well let alone both. Not to mention GM/HC combinations tend to get too attached to the players they brought in because they don’t want to look like a fool for bringing in those guys.
That's silly - you think that doesn't apply to a GM, who at the end of the day decides who to keep and who to cut?
If anything - removing that plausible deniability for poor performance means the HC/GM combo is more likely to cut an underperforming player because he's got nobody to blame but himself.
Gm- promote someone from the pats, Steelers, Seattle, kc
Coach- promote a college coach who can bring in a coordinator with a track record of working with new qbs
Aces, respectfully I am not accepting it because the chances that Bill B would leave New England for this shit show WHILE he is still under contract is the same long shot as the Giants actually winning the Superbowl this year. He has that organization running like a fine tuned machine.
Do I like your idea? Absolutely! sign me up.. but it isn't realistic.
I am also okay with the rest of your ideas but again no names are attached.
And I have yet to see a name that's available that could handle both.
It can't be college guy or even a young hot shot assistant. It's just too much.
LOL...who?
1000%
Head Coach- I feel like I'm going to be in the minority with this but I'd love Jim Harbaugh. He turned SF around and took them to a SB. He is a CEO type of head coach- not some clown like Shurmur or McAdoo whos head is too far up his own ass to realize there is more to the team than just offense/QB play.
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I'm not having any difficulty, you just can't accept my answer. My plan would be contact Bill Belichick's people and to offer him whatever the hell he wants to get him here.
Aces, respectfully I am not accepting it because the chances that Bill B would leave New England for this shit show WHILE he is still under contract is the same long shot as the Giants actually winning the Superbowl this year. He has that organization running like a fine tuned machine.
Do I like your idea? Absolutely! sign me up.. but it isn't realistic.
I am also okay with the rest of your ideas but again no names are attached.
Bill has a history of being an opportunist and being a HC somewhere else hasn't stopped him from jumping ship in the past. If he likes Jones and Brady goes, this is a better opportunity. It's not as much of a longshot as people think.
I'm not qualified to give you names. There are people out there that are though. Gettleman/Shurmur ain't it, I know that much.
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In comment 14673530 Zeke's Alibi said:
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In comment 14673520 Anakim said:
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Pass hard, his passing offense is straight out of the 80's.
He won a Super Bowl only a few years ago. That's good enough for me.
Are you serious? That was one of the best defenses in this Era.
Okay? And? They also had the #4 scoring offense.
I'm not qualified to give you names. There are people out there that are though. Gettleman/Shurmur ain't it, I know that much.
I agree that Shurmur is not the guy. For me, the jury is still out on Gettleman.
I am still challenging the arm chair owners out there who are quick to fire these two guys without naming REALISTIC replacements who can take this team and turn it into a winner.
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the separate GM and HC positions.
Get a coach who wears both hats...
When has that ever worked? It is hard enough to do one job well let alone both. Not to mention GM/HC combinations tend to get too attached to the players they brought in because they don’t want to look like a fool for bringing in those guys.
It has worked. Worked for Mike Shanahan in Denver. Works with Belichick.
Unfortunately, the system is so etched in how the league has worked that it's just assumed to be the right way to do business.
If I were a coach, I wouldn't want someone else picking my players. College coaches pick their own players. They don't have the AD do it...
I'd let the HC be the GM, pick his capoligist, pick his scouting director, scouts etc.
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I'm not qualified to give you names. There are people out there that are though. Gettleman/Shurmur ain't it, I know that much.
I agree that Shurmur is not the guy. For me, the jury is still out on Gettleman.
I am still challenging the arm chair owners out there who are quick to fire these two guys without naming REALISTIC replacements who can take this team and turn it into a winner.
My "realistic" choice would be Matt Rhule if I'm forced to give you one. He has NFL experience and has built up two programs in Temple and Baylor that were in really ugly spots before his arrival. He also turned down the Jets because they wouldn't allow him to pick his staff - that shows balls as well as the desire to have control over his own success or failure. From my perspective, that shows that he gets it to a degree.
But again, nobody on this board has the kind of information at their disposal to give you a real answer. We don't have references or contacts in the industry. I have absolutely no idea who the impressive front office assistants are or who the faceless assistant coach that can be the next John Harbaugh. You're asking fans on a message board to identify a guy for a position that is intangible driven. We don't have the resources to do that but the Giants and outside consulting firms do.
It only works if you strike gold with someone like BB or Parcells. Huge gamble.
Philly tried it and it probably would’ve wrecked their franchise if GM didn’t stick around.
Last, if you get rid of the coach, get rid of the GM. They made that mistake getting rid of Coughlin
Total offense. Yes. And BTW, that "all-decade" Broncos D wasn't even top-3 in the NFL that year
Point is that Kubiak has an advantage over all of these names: he has a Super Bowl to his name.
As for coach, whoever fits what the GM wants, is looking for, and program he is trying to implement.
As for coach, whoever fits what the GM wants, is looking for, and program he is trying to implement.
All good thoughts.
But we all know who is warming up in the Giants Way bullpen to relieve Gettleman - Kevin Abrams...
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Total offense. Yes. And BTW, that "all-decade" Broncos D wasn't even top-3 in the NFL that year
Point is that Kubiak has an advantage over all of these names: he has a Super Bowl to his name.
4.4 yards per play!!! Nuff fucking said.
His drafts have been pretty good. Considering he's held the 2nd and 6th slots, you'd expect them to be.
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Total offense. Yes. And BTW, that "all-decade" Broncos D wasn't even top-3 in the NFL that year
Point is that Kubiak has an advantage over all of these names: he has a Super Bowl to his name.
Gettleman has something like 7. I forget, but I'm sure he will remind us all at some point.
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Second, I don't love every move Gettleman has made. But his drafts have been strong and he at least accomplished gutting this roster. Now, we need an entirely new coaching staff and Mara nowhere near the personnel.
His drafts have been pretty good. Considering he's held the 2nd and 6th slots, you'd expect them to be.
Well I suppose it is easier to find a good player when you draft that high, but there have been plenty of picks in this league in the top 10 that turned into a bust.
We even have people now (after the past two weeks) hinting at Barkley being a bust.
I do think part of our problem at offensive line is coaching. There is no way we can go all of these years without finding ONE guy who can play on the line (sans Hernandez). Something else has to be happening here.