Is it talent or coaching?

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I do know that it is hard to lose this many games. Teams usually get a couple fluke wins a year

But Coaching is definietly an issue when we see no improvement every week. And it isn't just the rookies screwing up. The defense in general is horrible and not just the young secondary. The two starting safeties are vets. All the LB'ers are vets. Dline is young yes as are the CB'ers for the most part. Oline sucks. But some of this is on the coaching. Constantly the same issues every week not getting fixed.

I think that there is some talent on the team but no one anywhere thinks that this staff is getting the most out of what talent that they do have.

PS has to go.

but the poor coaching is contributing heavily on gameday.

its hard to win with this many young players and lack of skill players at key spots.

I think most of us would be somewhat hopeful if we were seeing growth in team and individual play even if it didn't equate to wind. In reality, on the surface it looks like the exact opposite is happening.

And since it’s both, both DG and PS need to hit the bricks.

We desperately need an outside voice to come in.

No question. We need more talent.

But we would not be this bad with better coaching.

On offense or defense as the season goes. As Carl Banks was saying, how can they still be making the same mistakes on defense. Everyone still confused on what coverage they’re supposed to be in

BUT the coaching is awful... Center gives away snap count... No response.... Eli rolls out more than Jones...Galman gets carries only when Barkley is 100 percent.... Time managent.... Leaving a left tackle without help....not using Barkley correct when he was 100 percent... Letting a center go who was better than the next two... No emotion.... No anger.... Defensive game plans implemented only after we spot the other team 14 points... Dbacks playing 13 yards off the ball on 3rd and 10...trotting out a free safety who cannot run and is never even on the TV screen on deep passes.

And let's ponder thisittle nugget from Ed Valentine... Not exactly a harsh critic... Our replacement left tackle yesterday....Smith....had not been active for an NFL game before... And how was he prepared for LT during the week? He practiced the jumbo TE position. No prep at left tackle. That is just a great way to protect your new QB.

Our talent isn't good but how cna we even ego to ebuate it without an NFL coach or d coordinator.

With young players, not only do they need good coaching but they need to learn on the field.

I don’t know if you all realize this but there have been times when we had 4-5 rookies playing at the same time on defense. I cannot remember a time when this has ever happened.

Lawrence, Ximines, Baker, Connelly, Ballantine, Love all on the field simultaneously. That is a lot of youth and inexperience to deal with and it is showing up in the scoreboard.

The scheme maybe a little difficult to grasp as we have a bunch of former Bettcher players and they aren’t playing very well, except for Golden, whom I would RE-sign right now if I were Gettlemen

It seems that there is a disconnect between the type of players acquired and schemes that they are asked to play. The GM and the coaches are not on the same page. I guess it's just another indication of what a hot mess this team is.

But our coaching is dreadful so we are bottom barrel.

When you keep running him up the gut into Defenses designed to stop him, rather than lining him up as a receiver (until the D losesens up -- especially while Engram and Sheppard are out), that strikes me as coaching.

A good coach isn't bringing the roster to the playoffs, but they probably would have beaten the Jets and Cardinals.

This team is leading the division right now given the state of the rest of the division.

This team has holes but the talent gap isn’t as severe as the record indicates.

Howard Cross on the post game was talking about why plays were not called to help the offensive line by using more tight ends and chipping defensive opponents. Banks was agreeing with him.

One excuses the other

In comment 14674605 JonC said:

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but the poor coaching is contributing heavily on gameday.

Yes, and I think it is more coaching than talent. To keep on giving up 14 points every game to start, claw back in only to fall apart in the 4th quarter, IMHO, says coaching.

In comment 14674595 mattlawson said:

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+1

You get your ass kicked from time to time, just plain out physicalled usually. For almost all our losses we hung around but you get the feeling you will lose and do, that's coaching.

However, I would like to see some sign that the coaches are trying to adjust to compensate for the team's weaknesses.

I'm reminded of 2013, where the line disintegrated and the season went belly-up. The team changed up its offensive strategy in order to compensate. It didn't work out due to the lack of talent, but it was a clear change with the goal of overcoming a team deficiency.

I don't think I see much in the way of coaching adjustments here. Maybe my eyes just aren't trained well enough to spot it. However, when the stock answer from everybody is, "We just need to do better," it kinda seems like the coaches are just praying that these guys suddenly figure out how to play instead of trying something new that can help the younger players succeed.

We have maybe one more win with a different coach. If you could build a roster from our weekly starters and our opponents, there are very few giants on that hypothetical combined roster week to week.

In comment 14674742 mitch300 said:

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Howard Cross on the post game was talking about why plays were not called to help the offensive line by using more tight ends and chipping defensive opponents. Banks was agreeing with him.

Gibbs invented the 12 personnel to slow down an ER, what's his name, who demolish RB blocks, like 30 years ago. It's football 101. And Gase is out coaching Shemur going with 6 man fronts because he and everyone except Shemur knew Barkley was shot, go heavy with Gallman ffs.

the Cowboys organization. All the talent in the world, on both sides of the ball, and they have 3 more wins than the Giants and 4 of them were against the 3 worst teams in football. So my assumption is it is 85% coaching 15% talent.

Good coaching gets the most out of talent ... Here, our 2nd year guys have digressed and our rookies are not improving game to game.

Well coached teams show progress week to week ... clearly not happening.

Well coached teams have sound game strategies and play calling that overcomes weaknesses ...not here.

Both of our coordinators are clueless and the OL coach is so bad he’s even gotten Zeitler to play worse. ... sickening overall.

Look at what the Steelers are doing w/o Big Ben. Look at what the Browns are doing with all their talent. There’s other examples all around the league. Shurmur is a terrible coach and if you put him in charge of the Pats or the Chiefs or the Ravens or any other team, you’d see those teams turn to garbage almost immediately.

and it starts with the incompetence at the top and running unchecked without stern words from competent types for a decade now. That coughlin loop of him dissing mara should tell you all you need to know.

We have players who have had success at other clubs (and now mysteriously suck), and we have a bunch of young talented players who are getting better.

IMO, coaching is the issue.
- They don't seem to make anyone better
- They continually look to be out-schemed by the opposing coaching staff
- They look like they are demanding our players play their desired scheme, rather than look and see what would work best with the talent we have

These are all signs of lousy coaching

with young Baker -- how can you blame all of his miscues on coaching?

In comment 14674605 JonC said:

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but the poor coaching is contributing heavily on gameday.

Agreed.

for the minority that thinks it's coaching, how many more wins we would have with a different coach?

DJ8 throw into tight or double coverage wco spacing routes against Tampa 2, an obsolescent D except against Shormur. And of course watching yesterday Rodgers throw to a wide open Graham for huge yards with a seam hitch Cover 2 beater combo route which we never see with a team stacked with EE, SS, and GT.

In comment 14674935 V.I.G. said:

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for the minority that thinks it's coaching, how many more wins we would have with a different coach?

redo

please estimate for the minority that thinks it's *talent* - how many more wins with a different coach

But this coach is probably the worst in the NFL. And that's not an exaggeration. He is so over his head it's scary.

Rockythompson what he thinks.

In comment 14674947 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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But this coach is probably the worst in the NFL. And that's not an exaggeration. He is so over his head it's scary.

OK - how many more wins 1? 3?

DG's roster is
-underperforming
---has been
-----never was
--------trash

Thirds coaching one third talent. A lot of veterans who produced decently for other teams and were acquired by the Giants suddenly look like crap.

I also think there is a major philosophical misalignment between the type of team Gettleman wants to see (hard nosed 1990 ny giants rip out your lungs smash mouth) and the systems deployed by the coaches (west coast offense, finesse passing, trickery on defense). In short they’re not on the same page.

its fair to ask if this a young roster with a lot of talent? Or is this simply a young roster that isn't very talented?

Just using the defense as an example, outside of Lawrence, has the defensive line as a whole progressed from Week 1 to now? That's questionable.

Has the linebacker play....nevermind

The play of the cornerbacks. Have they grown? While Baker has been poor, part of me believes that on a better team, he would not have been given

The safeties. Do we just have JAGs back there? No one else is pushing these guys for playing time?

When that side of the ball is ready to "compete" on a serious level to win games, how many of these guys will even be starting or even on the roster? If after two years of roster turnover, we haven't identified 4 guys that would be starters, that means we are spinning our wheels.

Are we going to be forced to "buy" a defense again like in 2016?

In comment 14674935 V.I.G. said:

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for the minority that thinks it's coaching, how many more wins we would have with a different coach?

It’s a fair question, so I’ll ask it to you in slightly different form: how many wins does this Giants team have with Bill Belichick at the helm? Do you think Belichick would have started Eli in game one and given him the hook after two games with a depleted roster? You think this defense wouldn’t be better with the greatest defensive coach ever scheming it up and calling plays?

Coaching is what distinguishes teams in the NFL. If you have a good coach your team is in the hunt. Are there any lousy coaches with good teams that win? Not often. Belichick or any number of good coaches has this Giants team in the hunt for the division and the playoffs. Shurmur is among the very worst coaches in the history of the NFL. To deny this or his impact would be to ignore his record and that just doesn’t make any sense in a business where you’re won loss record is everything.

But more a lack of talent.

In comment 14674864 trueblueinpw said:

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Look at what the Steelers are doing w/o Big Ben. Look at what the Browns are doing with all their talent. There’s other examples all around the league. Shurmur is a terrible coach and if you put him in charge of the Pats or the Chiefs or the Ravens or any other team, you’d see those teams turn to garbage almost immediately.

The Steelers moved on from Brown in the offseason, Bell, Ben has been out for the season, and Conner missed the game yesterday and they have a 5-4 record after starting 1-4.

Is there any doubt that if Shurmur would have been given those same circumstances, not only would the record not be 5-4, but he would be using injuries as a crutch for the lack of victories?

Bad coaching not only hurts on gameday, but hurts from Monday through Saturday.

It is one or the other or both

Very young team and some of them just became starters. Overall I think the roster is improving so I have hope in that regard.

I've lost confidence in both shurmur and betcher.

In comment 14674977 Les in TO said:

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Thirds coaching one third talent. A lot of veterans who produced decently for other teams and were acquired by the Giants suddenly look like crap. I also think there is a major philosophical misalignment between the type of team Gettleman wants to see (hard nosed 1990 ny giants rip out your lungs smash mouth) and the systems deployed by the coaches (west coast offense, finesse passing, trickery on defense). In short they’re not on the same page.

If that is so Les (and I agree with you BTW), why when the initial candidates were being brought in for interviews, Shurmur got past the first round?

Gettleman (one would hope) knew the type of team he wanted to build structurally. The coach he was interviewing was a direct opposite of that.

How did it break down where he even got within sniffing distance to be the choice for coach?

Unless...powers above after interviewing Shurmur incorrectly talked themselves into thinking that they could work together.

In comment 14675003 trueblueinpw said:

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In comment 14674935 V.I.G. said: Quote: for the minority that thinks it's coaching, how many more wins we would have with a different coach? It’s a fair question, so I’ll ask it to you in slightly different form: how many wins does this Giants team have with Bill Belichick at the helm? Do you think Belichick would have started Eli in game one and given him the hook after two games with a depleted roster? You think this defense wouldn’t be better with the greatest defensive coach ever scheming it up and calling plays? Coaching is what distinguishes teams in the NFL. If you have a good coach your team is in the hunt. Are there any lousy coaches with good teams that win? Not often. Belichick or any number of good coaches has this Giants team in the hunt for the division and the playoffs. Shurmur is among the very worst coaches in the history of the NFL. To deny this or his impact would be to ignore his record and that just doesn’t make any sense in a business where you’re won loss record is everything.

Eli is not on the roster 2 years ago with BB. BB the best HC of all time could maybe get this roster at .500. The difference is BB as GM/HC has a much better roster...

for the first overall pick. The team is collapsing again and not putting together a real season. One win was a fluke and the team should be 1 - 9.

I think it has reached this low because of the HC. He is not getting it done. It is a very tough job, but all they do is lose and play WORSE when it is crunch time.

The team sucks. A good HC, they are hard to find, would not be at 1 - 9 with this group. Shurmur more than a year and a half here has given no signs this team can rise out of the ass of the NFL. Coaching is the biggest issue here and it becomes tough when you lose all the time because all players start realizing it is over and no longer give their all let alone the killer instinct for contact, hustle and heart that is needed to bang with the best, let alone the mediocre.

A roster will play better when it has a equal or winning record and there is something to play for and conversely a roster will play much worse when there is no hope and the season is dead.

The buck stops with Shurmur and he must go. Problem is, now the team tries for coach three. Who knows how that works out. Jettisoning Coughlin and promoting McAdoo was a demarcation point for the franchise and they chose poorly. Now is is the Coach Merry-Go-Round.

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one would think we would see at least some signs of the players improving as they gain experience and are coached up

on which the last 8 years of failure have been built. We drafted guys hoping and praying they could be coached up, horsed around with them for 3 or 4 seasons only to find out they were not NFL material. If a young player isn't forcing himself into the lineup by the beginning of year 2, he's probably not going to be starter material.

This team needs to evaluate its players better or more critically and not fall for the most optimistic and happy narrative.

Many of you are down on Barkley and gaga for Jones. Has anyone considered that teams are going all out to stop Barkley and not particularly worried about Jones? That may be the case, it may not be the case, but no one is even discussing it.

In comment 14674935 V.I.G. said:

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for the minority that thinks it's coaching, how many more wins we would have with a different coach?

I think ... with decent coaching we’re at least 5-5 ... we should have beaten the Lions, Cardinals and the Jests ... with a great coach, we also beat the Bills. Only with God could we have beaten the Cowboys, Patriots or Vikings.