Leonard Williams: Why?

In comment 14675552 5BowlsSoon said:

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We didn�t lose because of him. I�m sure he is better than any 3rd pick we would make.

👆🏻This...very unlikely any 3rd pick will be better 👆🏻

But I rather have a top 70 pick who is 5 years younger.

if you are defending the player in question. if you are not, then its sacks only!

In comment 14675594 81_Great_Dane said:

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But he's looking like he's the same player he was with the Jets: Stout against the run, good at pressuring the QB, not a sack master. Useful player. The Jets used an early first-rounder on him, and he seemed like a disappointment to them. For the Giants to use a future 3rd and a later 4th/5th on him is pretty good value ��depending on whether they sign him and what he ends up costing. The Giants D-line is pretty solid now but they don't have an impact pass rusher. Golden's ok, but he's not enough.j

Good value to use a high 3rd and 4th to sign a free agent a big $ ?

In comment 14675615 giants#1 said:

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But he's arguably the best player on this D already and if you watched yesterday's game and weren't impressed by him, then I'm not sure what you were watching. 4 QBHits, drew a penalty and was stout against the run.

Being the best player on this defense isn't exactly saying much.

In comment 14675678 Dave in Hoboken said:

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In comment 14675615 giants#1 said: Quote: But he's arguably the best player on this D already and if you watched yesterday's game and weren't impressed by him, then I'm not sure what you were watching. 4 QBHits, drew a penalty and was stout against the run. Being the best player on this defense isn't exactly saying much.

Agreed. But for a 34 defense, a DL built around Williams, Tomlinson, and Lawrence with Hill keeping them fresh and providing depth is a solid core. And all <25 so once Williams is locked up, they'll have something to build around.

Hopefully Beal, Baker, and Ballentine can develop into quality CBs.

Then they'll just need 4 LBs and a FS going forward (Carter's looking more like good depth and Golden's a UFA).

but he's a legit NFL starter. Probably an above average one with some more upside. We need those around here. Hopefully they can extend him at a reasonable rate over the bye week.

but in two years we'll be talking about how much dead money we're going to have to eat to get rid of him.

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Leonard Williams did not have a �box score� performance but he graded at an elite 90 overall with 6 total pressures against his former team. Williams� 78.6 pass-rush grade is his best game grade since week 10 of 2017

I've seen this before with Vernon... lots of pressure and hurries but little to show for in the stat columns for sacks (Vernon was a guy that never got hurt also until he put on blue).

I like a strong DL and what we were building towards. I know Williams is going to be better than any 3rd round pick but we need those picks for depth. In the end, having Williams hasn't changed our trajectory and there is still no guarantee he resigns.

The line is missing a game-changer. I hope Lawrence can turn into that but what we have on tape with Willams tells us that he's good but can't change a game by himself. I'm under no illusions that LT is walking through the door but nice pieces aren't going to get this defense fixed.
PFF Williams� 78.6 pass rush grade is his best game grade since week 10 of 2017 - ( New Window )

Of hopefully some day a good defense
Sure. He doesn�t warrant 6th pick in draft
But that�s not on us
If he is solid with some additional upside and u can sign him to a reasonable extension then do it
He is still young. Been healthy etc
3rd and maybe 4th rd pick? Rounds are a crapshoot anyway
Better than trading that instead of a 29 yr old who peaked and may be on downside

In comment 14675743 bumpsinthenight said:

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Quote: Leonard Williams did not have a �box score� performance but he graded at an elite 90 overall with 6 total pressures against his former team. Williams� 78.6 pass-rush grade is his best game grade since week 10 of 2017 I've seen this before with Vernon... lots of pressure and hurries but little to show for in the stat columns for sacks (Vernon was a guy that never got hurt also until he put on blue). I like a strong DL and what we were building towards. I know Williams is going to be better than any 3rd round pick but we need those picks for depth. In the end, having Williams hasn't changed our trajectory and there is still no guarantee he resigns. The line is missing a game-changer. I hope Lawrence can turn into that but what we have on tape with Willams tells us that he's good but can't change a game by himself. I'm under no illusions that LT is walking through the door but nice pieces aren't going to get this defense fixed. PFF Williams� 78.6 pass rush grade is his best game grade since week 10 of 2017 - ( New Window )

I think the "front 7" is missing that game changer and more specifically we need an elite (or even great) edge rusher at OLB. Golden would be great as your #2 rusher, but they need someone at least as good, if not a notch better opposite him. That combined with Williams/Lawrence collapsing the middle would be formidable.

Basically a guy like Za'Darius Smith.

Was going to be good this year you guys was delusional the Giants is building something good that defensive line is going to be great once they get an edge rusher this team has been so bad for so long that is going to take time for the GM the rebuilding we gave up basically a fifth round pick to get Leonard Williams because if you leave in free agency we are going to get a 3rd round pick in compensation and Leonard Williams is better that any third round d-tackle we can get in this upcoming draft

or game-changer. He's not going to take over a game. And that's exactly the kind of guy this defense is missing right now. I think that's part of what makes people scratch their head with this trade. We need that one gamebreaker on the DL, and Williams isn't that.

Did you watch the game? He did everything a DT stud is supposed to do, which for some of you does not necessarily mean sacks. Their is no "fantasy football" mentality when it comes to Defensive Tackles.

Was going to be good this year you guys was delusional the Giants is building something good that defensive line is going to be great once they get an edge rusher. This team has been so bad for so long that it's going to take time for the GM to rebuilding. We gave up basically a fifth round pick to get Leonard Williams because if he leave in free agency we are going to get a 3rd round pick in compensation and Leonard Williams is better that any third round d-tackle we can get in this upcoming draft

In comment 14675785 Dave in Hoboken said:

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or game-changer. He's not going to take over a game. And that's exactly the kind of guy this defense is missing right now. I think that's part of what makes people scratch their head with this trade. We need that one gamebreaker on the DL, and Williams isn't that.

You're not getting a gamebreaker for a 3rd and 5th though. And the odds of getting a player like that in the 3rd is <1%.

Williams is a legit building block though and the Giants D needs good-to-great players to build around.

In comment 14675666 hitdog42 said:

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if you are defending the player in question. if you are not, then its sacks only!

I tend to give a lot of points to QB pressures/hurry ups.

On this defense, that s why

Maybe the dumbest trade in NFL history. You guys realize he only under contract until the end of the season? If he had 5 sacks and an INT yesterday this would still be a monumentally dumb trade. The Giants aren�t in the hunt, the better we finish the worse our draft pick. The better LW plays, the more likely the Giants will overpay him. This trade makes no sense and hasn�t since DG made the mistake. It amazes me how people can�t see this for the monumental blunder that it so clearly is. And in all the posts about this trade, I have yet to read a single one which makes an argument for trading draft picks for a player who�s a FA in a few games with a team that�s already out of playoff contention.

In comment 14675800 giants#1 said:

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In comment 14675785 Dave in Hoboken said: Quote: or game-changer. He's not going to take over a game. And that's exactly the kind of guy this defense is missing right now. I think that's part of what makes people scratch their head with this trade. We need that one gamebreaker on the DL, and Williams isn't that. You're not getting a gamebreaker for a 3rd and 5th though. And the odds of getting a player like that in the 3rd is <1%. Williams is a legit building block though and the Giants D needs good-to-great players to build around.

An early 3rd round draft pick on a team that has a ton of holes is something I find valuable.

He can rush the passer, but if he's your best pass rusher, you don't have a good pass rush.

A complementary player who they locked themselves into paying a lot of money to.

In comment 14675552 5BowlsSoon said:

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We didn�t lose because of him. I�m sure he is better than any 3rd pick we would make.

This. He pressured Darnold all day.

In comment 14675927 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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He can rush the passer, but if he's your best pass rusher, you don't have a good pass rush. A complementary player who they locked themselves into paying a lot of money to.

It is clearly not the same situation as Vernon. Vernon is an edge rusher, Williams got just as much pressure as vernon�s best game from the 3 technique position. I don�t know if you realize how much of a luxury that is in the NFL. Once we get a valid edge rusher on this team it is lights out for this defense. We�re doing it the right way on defense, set up your interior rush first and then get your edge, just like the current 49ers with deforest Buckner and the late 49ers with Justin Smith. Our last three technique with this kind of pass rushing ability was Fred Robbins. The D isn�t finished being built and all I can do is hope we finish the process.

dumb one.

They are going to have to shell out $15M+ for a player who is good, but inconsistent, and for a position where we already have solid quality...and cheap.

I like the Williams, but the LAST thing we should be doing this year was buying at the trade deadline instead of selling...

In comment 14676044 bw in dc said:

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dumb one. They are going to have to shell out $15M+ for a player who is good, but inconsistent, and for a position where we already have solid quality...and cheap. I like the Williams, but the LAST thing we should be doing this year was buying at the trade deadline instead of selling...

I see what ur saying but let�s say we do give him 15 mil a year, let Golden walk and possibly get a 3 for him, and have chase young for 7 mil a year. That�s 25 mil for a top pass rush unit in the NFL for the next 4 years. We can sign an ilb like Schobert, a fs like Justin Simmons, let Jenkins and ogletree go and still be waaaay under the cap. It�s not dreaming it�s actually somewhat of a reality

when he's leading team in sacks ? Don't break the bank - okay. But, I wouldn't write him off.

Williams applied a lot of pressure yesterday - failure to contain and getting out of pass rushing lanes cost them big time.

DL is probably only spot that had solid talent - DT, Hill, and Lawrence.

In fact, David Diehl asked why they didn't try to trade for and edge rusher - maybe someone like Bud Dupree - fills a bigger need and less expensive

But I think Golden will want the bank broken at 13 million +. That�s a decision for Gettleman to make but 13 mil seems like a mistake for an older edge rusher.

The shame is Hill isn't very good, and is getting replaced.

To fill the position it's effectively taking 2 3rds, a 4th, and a top end contract.

pick. LMAO

DG was trying to win this season. Giants were 2-6 but only two behind division leader with five games left in the division,

I know it seems ridiculous but that is the only reason that makes sense of trading for him rather than simply signing him as a free agent. DG was trying to turn it around this season

and has been inconsistent this year. I seriously doubt the jury is in re: his ability.

Vernon was an edge rusher, they are supposed to get sacks (as a part of their play). Williams is an inside DT like guy. He is supposed to clog everything up on the run, keep the OL off of the LB's, and get pressure up the middle on the passes. This makes the QB really uncomfortable, and hopefully doesn't allow him to step up. If he gets the sack great, but I don't think its his top goal. Also if he can demand double teams inside that opens up space for the edge guys and LB's to get to the QB or RB.

Williams did all of this.

In comment 14676082 XBRONX said:

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pick. LMAO

If they awarded a third for Preston Smith last year, wouldn�t it be a third or fourth for Golden, obviously they�ll sign people and it�ll be moot but the initial projection seems fine

In comment 14676096 PatersonPlank said:

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Vernon was an edge rusher, they are supposed to get sacks (as a part of their play). Williams is an inside DT like guy. He is supposed to clog everything up on the run, keep the OL off of the LB's, and get pressure up the middle on the passes. This makes the QB really uncomfortable, and hopefully doesn't allow him to step up. If he gets the sack great, but I don't think its his top goal. Also if he can demand double teams inside that opens up space for the edge guys and LB's to get to the QB or RB. Williams did all of this.

And now they're going to have to pay a very large amount of money for a player who isn't a premier pass rusher. That's the issue. It's always a question of value. There's only so much money to be spent, and this is a team with a ton of holes to fill.

many an analysis ( not that many analytics in football should be listened to) suggests that pressure up the middle alters a lot of passing plays turning them into unsuccessful plays and increasing the odds of turnovers.

But he won't be playing the Jets OL every week. I'd like the deal if we were in a different situation and had a fair contract in place prior to the deal. But we don't.
He was an up and down player for the Jets that was made expendable because he wasn't really a scheme fit (at least for a big contract) in Greg Williams system. The good news is that he's a fantastic scheme fit for this team. The bad news is that half the people singing the praises of this trade want Bettcher's head on a pike. What happens if the Giants make the coaching switch that this board has been clamoring for since Week 1? Compounding that, we're a team with holes everywhere and we're throwing both draft and cap currency at the one spot that was actually a strength. He's relegating one promising and cost controlled starter with 3 years left on a rookie deal to a 25% snap share. McIntosh has flashed but is now seeing ~15% snaps. Yet Mayo is still playing 60%. That's not the coaching either, it's the personnel. We're way too overweight at a non-critical position that is easy to scheme off the field. The deal doesn't work for us, there's way more downside than upside here given all the factors.

He had Olivier Vernon type pressure. Looked like one of our top two rushers to me.

In comment 14676252 AcesUp said:

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But he won't be playing the Jets OL every week. I'd like the deal if we were in a different situation and had a fair contract in place prior to the deal. But we don't. He was an up and down player for the Jets that was made expendable because he wasn't really a scheme fit (at least for a big contract) in Greg Williams system. The good news is that he's a fantastic scheme fit for this team. The bad news is that half the people singing the praises of this trade want Bettcher's head on a pike. What happens if the Giants make the coaching switch that this board has been clamoring for since Week 1? Compounding that, we're a team with holes everywhere and we're throwing both draft and cap currency at the one spot that was actually a strength. He's relegating one promising and cost controlled starter with 3 years left on a rookie deal to a 25% snap share. McIntosh has flashed but is now seeing ~15% snaps. Yet Mayo is still playing 60%. That's not the coaching either, it's the personnel. We're way too overweight at a non-critical position that is easy to scheme off the field. The deal doesn't work for us, there's way more downside than upside here given all the factors.

Fair analysis, I can�t wait for the day I see good lb play in a Giant uniform, Connelly was a tease

You guys debating the quality of play by LW or his position value or upside in the future or whatever are completely missing the only important point in this trade. Unless you thought LW was the difference between making a playoff run or not, there was absolutely no good reason to trade anything for LW. (Please note, if at any time during this season you thought the Giants were in the hunt for a playoff spot you need to immediately seek the help of a qualified mental health professional.)

No competent GM would trade draft picks for a player who�s a free agent at the end of the season on team that�s clearly out of playoff contention. This trade makes zero sense. It was a blunder of monumental and incomprehensible stupidity. In fact, the better LW plays, the worse this trade is for the Giants. Dumbest trade I can remember by any team in the NFL.

In comment 14676430 trueblueinpw said:

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You guys debating the quality of play by LW or his position value or upside in the future or whatever are completely missing the only important point in this trade. Unless you thought LW was the difference between making a playoff run or not, there was absolutely no good reason to trade anything for LW. (Please note, if at any time during this season you thought the Giants were in the hunt for a playoff spot you need to immediately seek the help of a qualified mental health professional.) No competent GM would trade draft picks for a player who�s a free agent at the end of the season on team that�s clearly out of playoff contention. This trade makes zero sense. It was a blunder of monumental and incomprehensible stupidity. In fact, the better LW plays, the worse this trade is for the Giants. Dumbest trade I can remember by any team in the NFL.

You do realize he can get franchised right?

In comment 14676458 aGiantGuy said:

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In comment 14676430 trueblueinpw said: Quote: You guys debating the quality of play by LW or his position value or upside in the future or whatever are completely missing the only important point in this trade. Unless you thought LW was the difference between making a playoff run or not, there was absolutely no good reason to trade anything for LW. (Please note, if at any time during this season you thought the Giants were in the hunt for a playoff spot you need to immediately seek the help of a qualified mental health professional.) No competent GM would trade draft picks for a player who�s a free agent at the end of the season on team that�s clearly out of playoff contention. This trade makes zero sense. It was a blunder of monumental and incomprehensible stupidity. In fact, the better LW plays, the worse this trade is for the Giants. Dumbest trade I can remember by any team in the NFL. You do realize he can get franchised right?

I do. Do you have any idea what his tag number would be vs FA value? It�s a dumb trade and the tag doesn�t change that fact. Further, do you really see LW as someone to tag on the Giants? I certainly do not.

keep him. Otherwise this was really fucking stupid.

The Jets OL stinks and he's very familiar with them, not to mention he went in as motivated as he'll ever be playing against the team that traded him.

All that said - he had a very good game. Good enough to justify giving up a 3rd and a 4th and paying him $12-15M a season? No way.

But the Giants will, because, well, they're the Giants.

In comment 14676491 trueblueinpw said:

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In comment 14676458 aGiantGuy said: Quote: In comment 14676430 trueblueinpw said: Quote: You guys debating the quality of play by LW or his position value or upside in the future or whatever are completely missing the only important point in this trade. Unless you thought LW was the difference between making a playoff run or not, there was absolutely no good reason to trade anything for LW. (Please note, if at any time during this season you thought the Giants were in the hunt for a playoff spot you need to immediately seek the help of a qualified mental health professional.) No competent GM would trade draft picks for a player who�s a free agent at the end of the season on team that�s clearly out of playoff contention. This trade makes zero sense. It was a blunder of monumental and incomprehensible stupidity. In fact, the better LW plays, the worse this trade is for the Giants. Dumbest trade I can remember by any team in the NFL. You do realize he can get franchised right? I do. Do you have any idea what his tag number would be vs FA value? It�s a dumb trade and the tag doesn�t change that fact. Further, do you really see LW as someone to tag on the Giants? I certainly do not.

You�re using dumb and fact in the same sentence and it�s hurting my brain. Dumb is an opinion, your opinion. Furthermore, the franchise would be temporary to secure a long term deal and would turn the 4th into a 5th. We�re not at the point where we need all our players to be cost controlled, we have a rookie qb, pay to get some guys in here so we can turn the corner, that�s how I�m looking at this trade. Houston didn�t want clowney because of scheme, doesn�t mean clowney isn�t a good player and Seattle wasted picks. Yes, they�re contending and we�re not, different context, bullshit, good teams get good players and keep them there.

Looking at the metrics - our defensive pressures have increased significantly in the past 2 weeks and we are in the top 10 now (from the bottom 10). We have blitz abit more, but pressure is up significantly in a short while.

This move is part of the big picture, just have to resign him.

First, they played a team on Sunday with an OL as bad as ours. But, his play on the field,best player on the D, etc. means nothing because we are going nowhere this year. This trade only makes sense if we re-sign him. But, even then, we are talking about a guy that wanted to remain in N.Y. and was not wanted by the Jets.

Those saying he is better than a 3rd tou Dee are missing the point. We could have attempted to sign him via FA and retained our 3rd found at the top of the round in a year when we need to fill many holes. Now, we lose a valuable pick for the right to grossly overpay a good, not great, player.

Someone suggested maybe Gettleman was trying to win now in a bad division. If so, that makes this trade even worse and shows his ignorance and lack of awareness on full display.

Did someone actually mention this? Why in Hell would anyone want to pay top 5 $ at the position for a guy who has underachieved thus far in his career?

In comment 14676637 Matt M. said:

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This trade only makes sense if we re-sign him. But, even then, we are talking about a guy that wanted to remain in N.Y. and was not wanted by the Jets. Those saying he is better than a 3rd tou Dee are missing the point. We could have attempted to sign him via FA and retained our 3rd found at the top of the round in a year when we need to fill many holes. Someone suggested maybe Gettleman was trying to win now in a bad division. If so, that makes this trade even worse and shows his ignorance and lack of awareness on full display.

Your post is a contradiction. You said "his trade only makes sense if we re-sign him." -- SO there really isn't much more to add. You and I don't know that while he wants to stya in NY - it doesn't mean he would. If the GMEN sign him, do we know if this move was a big reason in keeping him? You must know that some of these players are extremely sensitive in their belief they want to wanted / appreciated or feel dissed at any moment. Look at how much Adams went off the rails. As a result, GMEN think they have an advantage of signing him by doing this vs waiting.

I hate DG but imo he isn't even that stupid (considering he has made some moronic fa and trades) thinking that he could have won the division. But anyhow - I think ti comes down to as you say- they need to sign him.

In comment 14676608 aGiantGuy said:

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In comment 14676491 trueblueinpw said: Quote: In comment 14676458 aGiantGuy said: Quote: In comment 14676430 trueblueinpw said: Quote: You guys debating the quality of play by LW or his position value or upside in the future or whatever are completely missing the only important point in this trade. Unless you thought LW was the difference between making a playoff run or not, there was absolutely no good reason to trade anything for LW. (Please note, if at any time during this season you thought the Giants were in the hunt for a playoff spot you need to immediately seek the help of a qualified mental health professional.) No competent GM would trade draft picks for a player who�s a free agent at the end of the season on team that�s clearly out of playoff contention. This trade makes zero sense. It was a blunder of monumental and incomprehensible stupidity. In fact, the better LW plays, the worse this trade is for the Giants. Dumbest trade I can remember by any team in the NFL. You do realize he can get franchised right? I do. Do you have any idea what his tag number would be vs FA value? It�s a dumb trade and the tag doesn�t change that fact. Further, do you really see LW as someone to tag on the Giants? I certainly do not. You�re using dumb and fact in the same sentence and it�s hurting my brain. Dumb is an opinion, your opinion. Furthermore, the franchise would be temporary to secure a long term deal and would turn the 4th into a 5th. We�re not at the point where we need all our players to be cost controlled, we have a rookie qb, pay to get some guys in here so we can turn the corner, that�s how I�m looking at this trade. Houston didn�t want clowney because of scheme, doesn�t mean clowney isn�t a good player and Seattle wasted picks. Yes, they�re contending and we�re not, different context, bullshit, good teams get good players and keep them there.

If you honestly think that LW is worthy of tag status and money then there�s no sense in my writing anything further. I�ve still seen nothing on this trade, from experts to posters who registered here last week, to make any semblance of an argument for this trade. Remains the dumbest trade I�ve ever seen.