One tackle, 2 assists, no sacks yesterday. I know it's only been 2 games, and I suppose he helped add to the run stuffing yesterday by the DL, but can someone please tell me what is so special about this guy that Gettleman just had to have him in the middle of a losing season? The Jets sure didn't seem to miss him yesterday.
Much better than BJ Hill.
Now we'll have to see if they re-sign him before he hits the open market, which would be another reason to deal for him in season.
The Giants D-line is pretty solid now but they don't have an impact pass rusher. Golden's ok, but he's not enough.j
How do you know he's here next year? He is free to sign with anyone next year.
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constant pressure yesterday and you dont think hes doing anything?! Its nice to not have to worry about our Dline this off-season. LBers are the critical component of a 3-4 Base D and we need to invest moreso now in that unit.
How do you know he's here next year? He is free to sign with anyone next year.
Until March, he can only sign with the Giants.
right you are!
👆🏻This...very unlikely any 3rd pick will be better 👆🏻
The Giants D-line is pretty solid now but they don't have an impact pass rusher. Golden's ok, but he's not enough.j
Good value to use a high 3rd and 4th to sign a free agent a big $ ?
Being the best player on this defense isn't exactly saying much.
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But he's arguably the best player on this D already and if you watched yesterday's game and weren't impressed by him, then I'm not sure what you were watching. 4 QBHits, drew a penalty and was stout against the run.
Being the best player on this defense isn't exactly saying much.
Agreed. But for a 34 defense, a DL built around Williams, Tomlinson, and Lawrence with Hill keeping them fresh and providing depth is a solid core. And all <25 so once Williams is locked up, they'll have something to build around.
Hopefully Beal, Baker, and Ballentine can develop into quality CBs.
Then they'll just need 4 LBs and a FS going forward (Carter's looking more like good depth and Golden's a UFA).
Williams 78.6 pass-rush grade is his best game grade since week 10 of 2017
I've seen this before with Vernon... lots of pressure and hurries but little to show for in the stat columns for sacks (Vernon was a guy that never got hurt also until he put on blue).
I like a strong DL and what we were building towards. I know Williams is going to be better than any 3rd round pick but we need those picks for depth. In the end, having Williams hasn't changed our trajectory and there is still no guarantee he resigns.
The line is missing a game-changer. I hope Lawrence can turn into that but what we have on tape with Willams tells us that he's good but can't change a game by himself. I'm under no illusions that LT is walking through the door but nice pieces aren't going to get this defense fixed.
PFF Williams 78.6 pass rush grade is his best game grade since week 10 of 2017 - ( New Window )
Sure. He doesnt warrant 6th pick in draft
But thats not on us
If he is solid with some additional upside and u can sign him to a reasonable extension then do it
He is still young. Been healthy etc
3rd and maybe 4th rd pick? Rounds are a crapshoot anyway
Better than trading that instead of a 29 yr old who peaked and may be on downside
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Leonard Williams did not have a box score performance but he graded at an elite 90 overall with 6 total pressures against his former team.
Williams 78.6 pass-rush grade is his best game grade since week 10 of 2017
I've seen this before with Vernon... lots of pressure and hurries but little to show for in the stat columns for sacks (Vernon was a guy that never got hurt also until he put on blue).
I like a strong DL and what we were building towards. I know Williams is going to be better than any 3rd round pick but we need those picks for depth. In the end, having Williams hasn't changed our trajectory and there is still no guarantee he resigns.
The line is missing a game-changer. I hope Lawrence can turn into that but what we have on tape with Willams tells us that he's good but can't change a game by himself. I'm under no illusions that LT is walking through the door but nice pieces aren't going to get this defense fixed. PFF Williams 78.6 pass rush grade is his best game grade since week 10 of 2017 - ( New Window )
I think the "front 7" is missing that game changer and more specifically we need an elite (or even great) edge rusher at OLB. Golden would be great as your #2 rusher, but they need someone at least as good, if not a notch better opposite him. That combined with Williams/Lawrence collapsing the middle would be formidable.
Basically a guy like Za'Darius Smith.
You're not getting a gamebreaker for a 3rd and 5th though. And the odds of getting a player like that in the 3rd is <1%.
Williams is a legit building block though and the Giants D needs good-to-great players to build around.
I tend to give a lot of points to QB pressures/hurry ups.
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or game-changer. He's not going to take over a game. And that's exactly the kind of guy this defense is missing right now. I think that's part of what makes people scratch their head with this trade. We need that one gamebreaker on the DL, and Williams isn't that.
You're not getting a gamebreaker for a 3rd and 5th though. And the odds of getting a player like that in the 3rd is <1%.
Williams is a legit building block though and the Giants D needs good-to-great players to build around.
An early 3rd round draft pick on a team that has a ton of holes is something I find valuable.
A complementary player who they locked themselves into paying a lot of money to.
This. He pressured Darnold all day.
A complementary player who they locked themselves into paying a lot of money to.
It is clearly not the same situation as Vernon. Vernon is an edge rusher, Williams got just as much pressure as vernons best game from the 3 technique position. I dont know if you realize how much of a luxury that is in the NFL. Once we get a valid edge rusher on this team it is lights out for this defense. Were doing it the right way on defense, set up your interior rush first and then get your edge, just like the current 49ers with deforest Buckner and the late 49ers with Justin Smith. Our last three technique with this kind of pass rushing ability was Fred Robbins. The D isnt finished being built and all I can do is hope we finish the process.
They are going to have to shell out $15M+ for a player who is good, but inconsistent, and for a position where we already have solid quality...and cheap.
I like the Williams, but the LAST thing we should be doing this year was buying at the trade deadline instead of selling...
They are going to have to shell out $15M+ for a player who is good, but inconsistent, and for a position where we already have solid quality...and cheap.
I like the Williams, but the LAST thing we should be doing this year was buying at the trade deadline instead of selling...
I see what ur saying but lets say we do give him 15 mil a year, let Golden walk and possibly get a 3 for him, and have chase young for 7 mil a year. Thats 25 mil for a top pass rush unit in the NFL for the next 4 years. We can sign an ilb like Schobert, a fs like Justin Simmons, let Jenkins and ogletree go and still be waaaay under the cap. Its not dreaming its actually somewhat of a reality
Williams applied a lot of pressure yesterday - failure to contain and getting out of pass rushing lanes cost them big time.
In fact, David Diehl asked why they didn't try to trade for and edge rusher - maybe someone like Bud Dupree - fills a bigger need and less expensive
To fill the position it's effectively taking 2 3rds, a 4th, and a top end contract.
I know it seems ridiculous but that is the only reason that makes sense of trading for him rather than simply signing him as a free agent. DG was trying to turn it around this season
Williams did all of this.
If they awarded a third for Preston Smith last year, wouldnt it be a third or fourth for Golden, obviously theyll sign people and itll be moot but the initial projection seems fine
Williams did all of this.
And now they're going to have to pay a very large amount of money for a player who isn't a premier pass rusher. That's the issue. It's always a question of value. There's only so much money to be spent, and this is a team with a ton of holes to fill.
He was an up and down player for the Jets that was made expendable because he wasn't really a scheme fit (at least for a big contract) in Greg Williams system. The good news is that he's a fantastic scheme fit for this team. The bad news is that half the people singing the praises of this trade want Bettcher's head on a pike. What happens if the Giants make the coaching switch that this board has been clamoring for since Week 1? Compounding that, we're a team with holes everywhere and we're throwing both draft and cap currency at the one spot that was actually a strength. He's relegating one promising and cost controlled starter with 3 years left on a rookie deal to a 25% snap share. McIntosh has flashed but is now seeing ~15% snaps. Yet Mayo is still playing 60%. That's not the coaching either, it's the personnel. We're way too overweight at a non-critical position that is easy to scheme off the field. The deal doesn't work for us, there's way more downside than upside here given all the factors.
He was an up and down player for the Jets that was made expendable because he wasn't really a scheme fit (at least for a big contract) in Greg Williams system. The good news is that he's a fantastic scheme fit for this team. The bad news is that half the people singing the praises of this trade want Bettcher's head on a pike. What happens if the Giants make the coaching switch that this board has been clamoring for since Week 1? Compounding that, we're a team with holes everywhere and we're throwing both draft and cap currency at the one spot that was actually a strength. He's relegating one promising and cost controlled starter with 3 years left on a rookie deal to a 25% snap share. McIntosh has flashed but is now seeing ~15% snaps. Yet Mayo is still playing 60%. That's not the coaching either, it's the personnel. We're way too overweight at a non-critical position that is easy to scheme off the field. The deal doesn't work for us, there's way more downside than upside here given all the factors.
Fair analysis, I cant wait for the day I see good lb play in a Giant uniform, Connelly was a tease
No competent GM would trade draft picks for a player whos a free agent at the end of the season on team thats clearly out of playoff contention. This trade makes zero sense. It was a blunder of monumental and incomprehensible stupidity. In fact, the better LW plays, the worse this trade is for the Giants. Dumbest trade I can remember by any team in the NFL.
No competent GM would trade draft picks for a player whos a free agent at the end of the season on team thats clearly out of playoff contention. This trade makes zero sense. It was a blunder of monumental and incomprehensible stupidity. In fact, the better LW plays, the worse this trade is for the Giants. Dumbest trade I can remember by any team in the NFL.
You do realize he can get franchised right?
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You guys debating the quality of play by LW or his position value or upside in the future or whatever are completely missing the only important point in this trade. Unless you thought LW was the difference between making a playoff run or not, there was absolutely no good reason to trade anything for LW. (Please note, if at any time during this season you thought the Giants were in the hunt for a playoff spot you need to immediately seek the help of a qualified mental health professional.)
No competent GM would trade draft picks for a player whos a free agent at the end of the season on team thats clearly out of playoff contention. This trade makes zero sense. It was a blunder of monumental and incomprehensible stupidity. In fact, the better LW plays, the worse this trade is for the Giants. Dumbest trade I can remember by any team in the NFL.
You do realize he can get franchised right?
I do. Do you have any idea what his tag number would be vs FA value? Its a dumb trade and the tag doesnt change that fact. Further, do you really see LW as someone to tag on the Giants? I certainly do not.
All that said - he had a very good game. Good enough to justify giving up a 3rd and a 4th and paying him $12-15M a season? No way.
But the Giants will, because, well, they're the Giants.
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In comment 14676430 trueblueinpw said:
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You guys debating the quality of play by LW or his position value or upside in the future or whatever are completely missing the only important point in this trade. Unless you thought LW was the difference between making a playoff run or not, there was absolutely no good reason to trade anything for LW. (Please note, if at any time during this season you thought the Giants were in the hunt for a playoff spot you need to immediately seek the help of a qualified mental health professional.)
No competent GM would trade draft picks for a player whos a free agent at the end of the season on team thats clearly out of playoff contention. This trade makes zero sense. It was a blunder of monumental and incomprehensible stupidity. In fact, the better LW plays, the worse this trade is for the Giants. Dumbest trade I can remember by any team in the NFL.
You do realize he can get franchised right?
I do. Do you have any idea what his tag number would be vs FA value? Its a dumb trade and the tag doesnt change that fact. Further, do you really see LW as someone to tag on the Giants? I certainly do not.
Youre using dumb and fact in the same sentence and its hurting my brain. Dumb is an opinion, your opinion. Furthermore, the franchise would be temporary to secure a long term deal and would turn the 4th into a 5th. Were not at the point where we need all our players to be cost controlled, we have a rookie qb, pay to get some guys in here so we can turn the corner, thats how Im looking at this trade. Houston didnt want clowney because of scheme, doesnt mean clowney isnt a good player and Seattle wasted picks. Yes, theyre contending and were not, different context, bullshit, good teams get good players and keep them there.
This move is part of the big picture, just have to resign him.
Those saying he is better than a 3rd tou Dee are missing the point. We could have attempted to sign him via FA and retained our 3rd found at the top of the round in a year when we need to fill many holes. Now, we lose a valuable pick for the right to grossly overpay a good, not great, player.
Someone suggested maybe Gettleman was trying to win now in a bad division. If so, that makes this trade even worse and shows his ignorance and lack of awareness on full display.
Those saying he is better than a 3rd tou Dee are missing the point. We could have attempted to sign him via FA and retained our 3rd found at the top of the round in a year when we need to fill many holes.
Someone suggested maybe Gettleman was trying to win now in a bad division. If so, that makes this trade even worse and shows his ignorance and lack of awareness on full display.
Your post is a contradiction. You said "his trade only makes sense if we re-sign him." -- SO there really isn't much more to add. You and I don't know that while he wants to stya in NY - it doesn't mean he would. If the GMEN sign him, do we know if this move was a big reason in keeping him? You must know that some of these players are extremely sensitive in their belief they want to wanted / appreciated or feel dissed at any moment. Look at how much Adams went off the rails. As a result, GMEN think they have an advantage of signing him by doing this vs waiting.
I hate DG but imo he isn't even that stupid (considering he has made some moronic fa and trades) thinking that he could have won the division. But anyhow - I think ti comes down to as you say- they need to sign him.
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In comment 14676458 aGiantGuy said:
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In comment 14676430 trueblueinpw said:
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You guys debating the quality of play by LW or his position value or upside in the future or whatever are completely missing the only important point in this trade. Unless you thought LW was the difference between making a playoff run or not, there was absolutely no good reason to trade anything for LW. (Please note, if at any time during this season you thought the Giants were in the hunt for a playoff spot you need to immediately seek the help of a qualified mental health professional.)
No competent GM would trade draft picks for a player whos a free agent at the end of the season on team thats clearly out of playoff contention. This trade makes zero sense. It was a blunder of monumental and incomprehensible stupidity. In fact, the better LW plays, the worse this trade is for the Giants. Dumbest trade I can remember by any team in the NFL.
You do realize he can get franchised right?
I do. Do you have any idea what his tag number would be vs FA value? Its a dumb trade and the tag doesnt change that fact. Further, do you really see LW as someone to tag on the Giants? I certainly do not.
Youre using dumb and fact in the same sentence and its hurting my brain. Dumb is an opinion, your opinion. Furthermore, the franchise would be temporary to secure a long term deal and would turn the 4th into a 5th. Were not at the point where we need all our players to be cost controlled, we have a rookie qb, pay to get some guys in here so we can turn the corner, thats how Im looking at this trade. Houston didnt want clowney because of scheme, doesnt mean clowney isnt a good player and Seattle wasted picks. Yes, theyre contending and were not, different context, bullshit, good teams get good players and keep them there.
If you honestly think that LW is worthy of tag status and money then theres no sense in my writing anything further. Ive still seen nothing on this trade, from experts to posters who registered here last week, to make any semblance of an argument for this trade. Remains the dumbest trade Ive ever seen.