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Leonard Williams: Why?

looie : 11/11/2019 1:25 pm
One tackle, 2 assists, no sacks yesterday. I know it's only been 2 games, and I suppose he helped add to the run stuffing yesterday by the DL, but can someone please tell me what is so special about this guy that Gettleman just had to have him in the middle of a losing season? The Jets sure didn't seem to miss him yesterday.
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RE: A third round  
aGiantGuy : 11/11/2019 5:15 pm : link
In comment 14676082 XBRONX said:
Quote:
pick. LMAO

If they awarded a third for Preston Smith last year, wouldn’t it be a third or fourth for Golden, obviously they’ll sign people and it’ll be moot but the initial projection seems fine
RE: Some people don't seem to understand the different positions on the DL  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/11/2019 6:32 pm : link
In comment 14676096 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
Vernon was an edge rusher, they are supposed to get sacks (as a part of their play). Williams is an inside DT like guy. He is supposed to clog everything up on the run, keep the OL off of the LB's, and get pressure up the middle on the passes. This makes the QB really uncomfortable, and hopefully doesn't allow him to step up. If he gets the sack great, but I don't think its his top goal. Also if he can demand double teams inside that opens up space for the edge guys and LB's to get to the QB or RB.

Williams did all of this.


And now they're going to have to pay a very large amount of money for a player who isn't a premier pass rusher. That's the issue. It's always a question of value. There's only so much money to be spent, and this is a team with a ton of holes to fill.
eh  
Bill2 : 11/11/2019 6:58 pm : link
many an analysis ( not that many analytics in football should be listened to) suggests that pressure up the middle alters a lot of passing plays turning them into unsuccessful plays and increasing the odds of turnovers.



He had a great game  
AcesUp : 11/11/2019 7:51 pm : link
But he won't be playing the Jets OL every week. I'd like the deal if we were in a different situation and had a fair contract in place prior to the deal. But we don't.
He was an up and down player for the Jets that was made expendable because he wasn't really a scheme fit (at least for a big contract) in Greg Williams system. The good news is that he's a fantastic scheme fit for this team. The bad news is that half the people singing the praises of this trade want Bettcher's head on a pike. What happens if the Giants make the coaching switch that this board has been clamoring for since Week 1? Compounding that, we're a team with holes everywhere and we're throwing both draft and cap currency at the one spot that was actually a strength. He's relegating one promising and cost controlled starter with 3 years left on a rookie deal to a 25% snap share. McIntosh has flashed but is now seeing ~15% snaps. Yet Mayo is still playing 60%. That's not the coaching either, it's the personnel. We're way too overweight at a non-critical position that is easy to scheme off the field. The deal doesn't work for us, there's way more downside than upside here given all the factors.
Do we even watch the same games?  
Darth Paul : 11/11/2019 7:55 pm : link
He had Olivier Vernon type pressure. Looked like one of our top two rushers to me.
RE: He had a great game  
aGiantGuy : 11/11/2019 8:01 pm : link
In comment 14676252 AcesUp said:
Quote:
But he won't be playing the Jets OL every week. I'd like the deal if we were in a different situation and had a fair contract in place prior to the deal. But we don't.
He was an up and down player for the Jets that was made expendable because he wasn't really a scheme fit (at least for a big contract) in Greg Williams system. The good news is that he's a fantastic scheme fit for this team. The bad news is that half the people singing the praises of this trade want Bettcher's head on a pike. What happens if the Giants make the coaching switch that this board has been clamoring for since Week 1? Compounding that, we're a team with holes everywhere and we're throwing both draft and cap currency at the one spot that was actually a strength. He's relegating one promising and cost controlled starter with 3 years left on a rookie deal to a 25% snap share. McIntosh has flashed but is now seeing ~15% snaps. Yet Mayo is still playing 60%. That's not the coaching either, it's the personnel. We're way too overweight at a non-critical position that is easy to scheme off the field. The deal doesn't work for us, there's way more downside than upside here given all the factors.

Fair analysis, I can’t wait for the day I see good lb play in a Giant uniform, Connelly was a tease
It doesn’t matter how LW plays...  
trueblueinpw : 11/11/2019 10:22 pm : link
You guys debating the quality of play by LW or his position value or upside in the future or whatever are completely missing the only important point in this trade. Unless you thought LW was the difference between making a playoff run or not, there was absolutely no good reason to trade anything for LW. (Please note, if at any time during this season you thought the Giants were in the hunt for a playoff spot you need to immediately seek the help of a qualified mental health professional.)

No competent GM would trade draft picks for a player who’s a free agent at the end of the season on team that’s clearly out of playoff contention. This trade makes zero sense. It was a blunder of monumental and incomprehensible stupidity. In fact, the better LW plays, the worse this trade is for the Giants. Dumbest trade I can remember by any team in the NFL.
RE: It doesn’t matter how LW plays...  
aGiantGuy : 11/11/2019 10:51 pm : link
In comment 14676430 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
You guys debating the quality of play by LW or his position value or upside in the future or whatever are completely missing the only important point in this trade. Unless you thought LW was the difference between making a playoff run or not, there was absolutely no good reason to trade anything for LW. (Please note, if at any time during this season you thought the Giants were in the hunt for a playoff spot you need to immediately seek the help of a qualified mental health professional.)

No competent GM would trade draft picks for a player who’s a free agent at the end of the season on team that’s clearly out of playoff contention. This trade makes zero sense. It was a blunder of monumental and incomprehensible stupidity. In fact, the better LW plays, the worse this trade is for the Giants. Dumbest trade I can remember by any team in the NFL.

You do realize he can get franchised right?
RE: RE: It doesn’t matter how LW plays...  
trueblueinpw : 11/11/2019 11:20 pm : link
In comment 14676458 aGiantGuy said:
Quote:
In comment 14676430 trueblueinpw said:


Quote:


You guys debating the quality of play by LW or his position value or upside in the future or whatever are completely missing the only important point in this trade. Unless you thought LW was the difference between making a playoff run or not, there was absolutely no good reason to trade anything for LW. (Please note, if at any time during this season you thought the Giants were in the hunt for a playoff spot you need to immediately seek the help of a qualified mental health professional.)

No competent GM would trade draft picks for a player who’s a free agent at the end of the season on team that’s clearly out of playoff contention. This trade makes zero sense. It was a blunder of monumental and incomprehensible stupidity. In fact, the better LW plays, the worse this trade is for the Giants. Dumbest trade I can remember by any team in the NFL.


You do realize he can get franchised right?


I do. Do you have any idea what his tag number would be vs FA value? It’s a dumb trade and the tag doesn’t change that fact. Further, do you really see LW as someone to tag on the Giants? I certainly do not.
He's a good player and i think we got good value for him IF we can  
MM_in_NYC : 11/11/2019 11:52 pm : link
keep him. Otherwise this was really fucking stupid.
That's probably the best game you'll see out of Williams all year  
jcn56 : 11/12/2019 12:33 am : link
The Jets OL stinks and he's very familiar with them, not to mention he went in as motivated as he'll ever be playing against the team that traded him.

All that said - he had a very good game. Good enough to justify giving up a 3rd and a 4th and paying him $12-15M a season? No way.

But the Giants will, because, well, they're the Giants.
RE: RE: RE: It doesn’t matter how LW plays...  
aGiantGuy : 11/12/2019 5:39 am : link
In comment 14676491 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
In comment 14676458 aGiantGuy said:


Quote:


In comment 14676430 trueblueinpw said:


Quote:


You guys debating the quality of play by LW or his position value or upside in the future or whatever are completely missing the only important point in this trade. Unless you thought LW was the difference between making a playoff run or not, there was absolutely no good reason to trade anything for LW. (Please note, if at any time during this season you thought the Giants were in the hunt for a playoff spot you need to immediately seek the help of a qualified mental health professional.)

No competent GM would trade draft picks for a player who’s a free agent at the end of the season on team that’s clearly out of playoff contention. This trade makes zero sense. It was a blunder of monumental and incomprehensible stupidity. In fact, the better LW plays, the worse this trade is for the Giants. Dumbest trade I can remember by any team in the NFL.


You do realize he can get franchised right?



I do. Do you have any idea what his tag number would be vs FA value? It’s a dumb trade and the tag doesn’t change that fact. Further, do you really see LW as someone to tag on the Giants? I certainly do not.

You’re using dumb and fact in the same sentence and it’s hurting my brain. Dumb is an opinion, your opinion. Furthermore, the franchise would be temporary to secure a long term deal and would turn the 4th into a 5th. We’re not at the point where we need all our players to be cost controlled, we have a rookie qb, pay to get some guys in here so we can turn the corner, that’s how I’m looking at this trade. Houston didn’t want clowney because of scheme, doesn’t mean clowney isn’t a good player and Seattle wasted picks. Yes, they’re contending and we’re not, different context, bullshit, good teams get good players and keep them there.
defensive metrics  
stoneman : 11/12/2019 7:00 am : link
Looking at the metrics - our defensive pressures have increased significantly in the past 2 weeks and we are in the top 10 now (from the bottom 10). We have blitz abit more, but pressure is up significantly in a short while.

This move is part of the big picture, just have to resign him.
It is irrelevant how well he played or how well he continues to play  
Matt M. : 11/12/2019 7:29 am : link
First, they played a team on Sunday with an OL as bad as ours. But, his play on the field,best player on the D, etc. means nothing because we are going nowhere this year. This trade only makes sense if we re-sign him. But, even then, we are talking about a guy that wanted to remain in N.Y. and was not wanted by the Jets.

Those saying he is better than a 3rd tou Dee are missing the point. We could have attempted to sign him via FA and retained our 3rd found at the top of the round in a year when we need to fill many holes. Now, we lose a valuable pick for the right to grossly overpay a good, not great, player.

Someone suggested maybe Gettleman was trying to win now in a bad division. If so, that makes this trade even worse and shows his ignorance and lack of awareness on full display.
Oh...and franchise tag?!  
Matt M. : 11/12/2019 7:32 am : link
Did someone actually mention this? Why in Hell would anyone want to pay top 5 $ at the position for a guy who has underachieved thus far in his career?
RE: It is irrelevant how well he played or how well he continues to play  
giantstock : 11/12/2019 8:30 am : link
In comment 14676637 Matt M. said:
Quote:
This trade only makes sense if we re-sign him. But, even then, we are talking about a guy that wanted to remain in N.Y. and was not wanted by the Jets.

Those saying he is better than a 3rd tou Dee are missing the point. We could have attempted to sign him via FA and retained our 3rd found at the top of the round in a year when we need to fill many holes.

Someone suggested maybe Gettleman was trying to win now in a bad division. If so, that makes this trade even worse and shows his ignorance and lack of awareness on full display.


Your post is a contradiction. You said "his trade only makes sense if we re-sign him." -- SO there really isn't much more to add. You and I don't know that while he wants to stya in NY - it doesn't mean he would. If the GMEN sign him, do we know if this move was a big reason in keeping him? You must know that some of these players are extremely sensitive in their belief they want to wanted / appreciated or feel dissed at any moment. Look at how much Adams went off the rails. As a result, GMEN think they have an advantage of signing him by doing this vs waiting.

I hate DG but imo he isn't even that stupid (considering he has made some moronic fa and trades) thinking that he could have won the division. But anyhow - I think ti comes down to as you say- they need to sign him.
RE: RE: RE: RE: It doesn’t matter how LW plays...  
trueblueinpw : 11/12/2019 9:32 am : link
In comment 14676608 aGiantGuy said:
Quote:
In comment 14676491 trueblueinpw said:


Quote:


In comment 14676458 aGiantGuy said:


Quote:


In comment 14676430 trueblueinpw said:


Quote:


You guys debating the quality of play by LW or his position value or upside in the future or whatever are completely missing the only important point in this trade. Unless you thought LW was the difference between making a playoff run or not, there was absolutely no good reason to trade anything for LW. (Please note, if at any time during this season you thought the Giants were in the hunt for a playoff spot you need to immediately seek the help of a qualified mental health professional.)

No competent GM would trade draft picks for a player who’s a free agent at the end of the season on team that’s clearly out of playoff contention. This trade makes zero sense. It was a blunder of monumental and incomprehensible stupidity. In fact, the better LW plays, the worse this trade is for the Giants. Dumbest trade I can remember by any team in the NFL.


You do realize he can get franchised right?



I do. Do you have any idea what his tag number would be vs FA value? It’s a dumb trade and the tag doesn’t change that fact. Further, do you really see LW as someone to tag on the Giants? I certainly do not.


You’re using dumb and fact in the same sentence and it’s hurting my brain. Dumb is an opinion, your opinion. Furthermore, the franchise would be temporary to secure a long term deal and would turn the 4th into a 5th. We’re not at the point where we need all our players to be cost controlled, we have a rookie qb, pay to get some guys in here so we can turn the corner, that’s how I’m looking at this trade. Houston didn’t want clowney because of scheme, doesn’t mean clowney isn’t a good player and Seattle wasted picks. Yes, they’re contending and we’re not, different context, bullshit, good teams get good players and keep them there.


If you honestly think that LW is worthy of tag status and money then there’s no sense in my writing anything further. I’ve still seen nothing on this trade, from experts to posters who registered here last week, to make any semblance of an argument for this trade. Remains the dumbest trade I’ve ever seen.
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