I get the doom and gloom. I get that it looks bad and it is bad. I completely get the attitude towards Shurmur. I kind of get that Gettleman doesn't have the equity from most of you to get the benefit of the doubt even if a reading of his record might show he does deserve better. I am a little less understanding of vitriol towards John Mara but so be it. This post is not about the owner, the GM or even the HC. It is about personnel.
First, it is important to recognize that the team that Gettleman inherited was in a lot worse shape than anyone wants to recognize. The talent was poor in many places. But somewhat worse is that where there was talent, it was not foundational talent. It wasn't talent that you build around, it wasn't talent that would lead the team forward. OBJ, Snacks, Jenkins, even Collins are examples. They are not necessarily bad people. But they were islands at best. To the extent they were leaders, they were leaders in the wrong way. The locker room was rotten, the talent was weak, the resources to improve were not there.
People point to San Fran as an example but this is year 3 of their regime and they had been bad for years before that too. So have we? Yes but the picks made by the last GM proved useless to this regime. In San Fran, they are using at least SOME players from before they got there in big roles. Gettleman could not do that here. Apple and Flowers were busts for various reasons, the 2nd rounders were by and large non-existent as well and the talented, productive 1st rounder in OBJ was a drain and poor alpha.
But the truth is that there is some young talent here that could be the foundation of the next good Giants teams.
If you go position by position, you will see guys who you feel pretty darn good about, others you think might be answers, some you aren't sure about and others you know you need to replace. Maybe we differ on some of those categories but I doubt by too much.
Pretty darn good/think they might be answers
Offense:
QB: Jones
RB: Barkley
TE: Engram
WR: Shepard
LG: Hernandez
RG: Zeitler
WR: Slayton
Notes: I know Shepard is a question mark but he is an answer if healthy. Slayton and Shep are answers to 2 of the top 3-4 WRs.
What's missing? Center, RT, LT and probably a red chip WR.
Defense:
DL: Tomlinson
DL: Williams
DL: Lawrence
DL: Hill
Edge: Golden
LB: Connelly
LB/Edge: Carter
LB/Edge: Ximines
S: Peppers
*CB: Baker
*CB: Beal
*S/CB: Love
*CB: Ballantine
Notes: I am assuming resignings for this exercise. Really, the only one who might not be back is Golden. Williams will be tagged if we don't get a deal done.
The DL is pretty stocked. The LB position is lacking next to Connelly but Carter and X-Man have both shown a lot to like if they are allowed to play to their strengths. But they are a little bit of a projection. The asterisks are the larger projection. It's been open season on Baker and I get it. And Beal has not played. So projections on those guys are probably more in we don't know yet. But the pedigree is fairly good and the skillsets are fairly good. So if you are a glass half full guy, you say at least 2 of the 4 CBs come through. Maybe 3. And if you aren't, CB is a need.
So what are the needs on defense? I see the major need for a blue chip pass rusher who will push Williams, Golden, Carter, Lawrence and X-Man down a notch and by doing so, making them much more effective. A great pass rusher takes attention and allows more favorable matchups for those other guys. He creates pressure which means that those guys get home because the QB has to escape but if Williams and Lawrence are pushing the pocket, he can't move up. And Golden, X-Man, Carter coming from the other side make it an avalanche.
Even so, this depends on CBs covering for some time at least. We haven't seen that this year. So a lot hinges on their improvement. Many rookies struggle and then improve. Many don't. So yes, optimism that our needs are not huge depends on some of those 4 becoming players we can depend on.
What I see missing? The top edge guy, a LB to play with Connelly, a safety and a CB to hedge my bets.
Combined with the offense needs, there is still a nice sized list. But it isn't insurmountable. It might need 2 more offseasons. But with the cap space and a high pick, we should make major inroads this offseason and begin to see improvement next year. I figure with resigning Williams and Golden, we may make 2 bigger signings as FAs. In this, I give some possibles for RT and for ILB next to Connelly.
RT: Williams or Conklin are options
C: I think this is a bridge guy still unless we get someone in the 3rd/4th round.
LT: Either the high first round pick (Thomas??) or the 2nd round pick (maybe a tradeup). The draft has a number of well regarded tackles.
WR: You could list Amare Cooper and pine for him but I think we spend our money closer to the ball like at the tackle or LB positions. My guess is we go for a bridge type vet and hit this in the draft again, probably 3rd-5th round.
Edge: Same as LT. Either the high first round pick (Young) or we see about trading up from the top of the 2nd.
LB: Joe Schobert or Blake Martinez are options
S: Justin Simmons would be one option on one tier. Karl Joseph is a different type option on a different tier.
CB: You could list Byron Jones but I don't think we play at that level. I think more realistic options are guys like Kendall Fuller (for nickelback), Daryl Worley, James Bradbury (former DG picks) and a couple of others with the hopes/belief that our guys take big steps forward for next year and after.
Lastly, on STs, Rosas is going through a not atypical kicker's year. The best guys figure a way to minimize the variation from year to year. Rosas now has to do that. But like relievers in baseball, there is a lot of year to year variability in production. There is reason to believe he will be better next year so let's consider PK a filled job. But at Punter, Dixon is a UFA. I would definitely love to upgrade to a guy who is top notch. Paying punter top dollar is not a huge investment and I would look into Tress Way as he is a UFA this offseason.
Bottom line to me: There is a realistic path to fill many of the needs this offseason with real talent. The biggest needs are the tackles and top pass rusher to me. The 1st round pick will fill one of LT or pass rusher and free agency should give us an opportunity to get the RT. The 3rd major need (LT or pass rusher) will depend to some degree on how the draft falls. Almost every other position will get a lot better when those needs are filled and by growth from year 1 to year 2 or year 2 to year 3. And the other needs are not major. If we draft well, we should get a LB, center, safety and/or WR who can contribute after the 1st two rounds or as a bridge in FA.
Lastly, every player but Engram, Shepard and Tomlinson that I listed in the positions roundup as "Pretty darn good/think they might be answers" was acquired by Gettleman. If you think about that and the fact that there aren't more players from before that we could tab as likely (or even possible answers), that tells you just how huge the job is that Gettleman inherited. For those of you who are impatient, you can't fill 22 starters (really about 30 starters when you add in 3rd and 4th WR, 2nd TE, nickleback, dimeback, rotation DLinemen and even punter and PK) in 2 offseasons. You just can't. If there were holdovers worth keeping, the job would be quicker. But there weren't and aren't. Guys like Kennard and Okwara are ok but they aren't difference makers in Detroit. Apple was rotten. Flowers stunk and was rotten. OBJ and Collins are the ones that were and are debatable but the team didn't feel they were worth the trouble and/or money.
There are positives, you just have to know where to look.
With optimism.
I don't think Golden stays past this year. He will get overpaid. BJ Hill has disappeared this year. Tomlinson is nothing but a run plugger who you let go in his contract year. He is very replaceable.
The only pieces in place that I see are
Jones, Barkley, Slayton, Hernandez, Zeitler
Lawrence, Williams (if re-signed) Connelly, Peppers
Everyone else is either unproven or injury prone.
Oh and by the way we also have no 3rd or 4th/5th rounder to help with the rebuild process
I'm frustrated about the lousy football as well, but I honestly think that their roster had and currently has a lot of hole and wi take at least another offseason or two to get it on track. If we are being honest with ourselves as fans we would have to acknowledge that this is probably a 3 to 4 year rebuild.
I'm a little bit more patient in that I'd like to see Shurmur coach with a more competitve roster but if they are this bad again next year, then I think it's safe to conclude that he won't be able to turn it around.
good post mort!!!
1 more FA period and solid draft could set a foundation that gets this team competitive for years.
Losing sucks but it is part of the equation for building a better roster.
Chase Young would be a great building block next year.
When he's not being picked on the Defense can actually look good.
I don't think Golden stays past this year. He will get overpaid. BJ Hill has disappeared this year. Tomlinson is nothing but a run plugger who you let go in his contract year. He is very replaceable.
The only pieces in place that I see are
Jones, Barkley, Slayton, Hernandez, Zeitler
Lawrence, Williams (if re-signed) Connelly, Peppers
Everyone else is either unproven or injury prone.
Oh and by the way we also have no 3rd or 4th/5th rounder to help with the rebuild process
Golden can leave and it might not make a difference if we get the big time Chase Young prize. Williams and Lawrence will still be there and X-Man was drafted to be that 2nd guy on the outside. And Carter can bring it at times as well though I like him better as an all around type. As for Hill and Tomlinson, I disagree. Hill has been the same player mostly. The sacks aren't there but the play is pretty much the same. And Tomlinson is a superlative run player and getting better.
If you don't have the right men making decisions all the talent in the world won't win.
fingers crossed.
The problem is you need to "fix" multiple positions (you have 3 on o-line alone) and that assume you are correct about every single "answer" you list. You assume the young guys will progress, there will be no attrition through injuries or disaffection or free agent losses and no regression. In truth, at least some of your "safe" plays will be lost through that attrition so you have even more spots to "fix" and you have 7 picks and whatever you can scramble up on the FA market and we are down two picks with the Williams deal regardless of whether he signs, is tagged or leaves.
And that also assumes they are well taught and well coached.
This is a huge task and we need to be very fortunate to find so many players that quickly.
The problem is you need to "fix" multiple positions (you have 3 on o-line alone) and that assume you are correct about every single "answer" you list. You assume the young guys will progress, there will be no attrition through injuries or disaffection or free agent losses and no regression. In truth, at least some of your "safe" plays will be lost through that attrition so you have even more spots to "fix" and you have 7 picks and whatever you can scramble up on the FA market and we are down two picks with the Williams deal regardless of whether he signs, is tagged or leaves.
And that also assumes they are well taught and well coached.
This is a huge task and we need to be very fortunate to find so many players that quickly.
You are counting your chickens early on this year's draft class, and overestimating a lot of the others.
With good fortune on a lot of these youngsters stepping up to the plate, we can rise to being ok - mediocre.
The OL sucks. Hernandez may be ok, but he hasn't shown to be any kind of anchor. Ditto Zeitler. The other 3 are pathetic.
The WR is meh. Nothing there that says it is going to be more than that.
On D, rising to sub mediocrity will take a LOT of good fortune. some of the ones you list as being part of a solid foundation haven't shown much of anything toward realizing that hope.
It's good to be optimistic, but with good fortune of past and future drafts, 2 more years might see us well on our way, at which point you have to spend resources replacing or retaining the early part of the rebuild. The margin for error is slim.
Plus, do we know that all these decent players jettisoned for culture were really bad seeds? Or was the coaching unable to control the negativity?
I kind of feel like even with the lack of talent, a better coaching staff could've gotten at least a couple more wins out of this team, probably against the weaker teams like Arizona, Detroit and Jets. 5-5 would've been kind of expected at this point.
for example outside of us not being able to afford another GAFF and miss at OL, what makes Hernandez a top OL? he isn't or hasn't shown he is. Because he is a "tough" guy it gets over looked but he is over powered often on run plays. Not sold on this guy but again we already have 3 OL holes so I guess have to see if he can rebound next year with a better center next to him
agree on TE . we need a real TE who can block and catch. Engram is an off/on TE that is really a WR and needs to be used to match up against LBs
I think with a real safety and a pass rush we will be OK at DB . I do remember how much better Webster got when magically we had more of a pass rush and he had his second year under him . Maybe the D backfield will be similar
What is his plan with Barkley? His awe shucks attitude coupled with DG's smudge, "smartest guy in the room act," has run its course for me.
Let's swap Tomlin and his staff for Shurmur and his come January. Next year the Steelers will be 2-8 and we'll be 6-4 with the same personel.
It seems to me that the solid players you list are being coached poorly. Both sides of the ball. Fundamentals are bad both tackling/blocking and being in the right place to make a play like the Pats always are.
We just can't enjoy some nice wins.
The comment about 3/5 of the OL is certainly noted but with so many holes inherited by Gettleman, who would you have taken or signed instead at the time? And what other holes would we now have instead? Basically he took over a team that had only 3 people he regards as keepers if you go by what is left. So about 24 starters were needed (if you count some of those role players as essentially a starter) with minimal cap room available. In two offseasons, he is down to maybe 10-12 spots with cap room coming and another draft to come this offseason.
We all want results and want them quickly but the bottom line is that you only have so many top draft picks and if you have no cap space, you have to hit them all plus the lower round picks. Nobody in the history of the league has a perfect batting record in personnel even counting only 1st and 2nd rounders.
You are counting your chickens early on this year's draft class, and overestimating a lot of the others.
With good fortune on a lot of these youngsters stepping up to the plate, we can rise to being ok - mediocre.
The OL sucks. Hernandez may be ok, but he hasn't shown to be any kind of anchor. Ditto Zeitler. The other 3 are pathetic.
The WR is meh. Nothing there that says it is going to be more than that.
On D, rising to sub mediocrity will take a LOT of good fortune. some of the ones you list as being part of a solid foundation haven't shown much of anything toward realizing that hope.
It's good to be optimistic, but with good fortune of past and future drafts, 2 more years might see us well on our way, at which point you have to spend resources replacing or retaining the early part of the rebuild. The margin for error is slim.
Plus, do we know that all these decent players jettisoned for culture were really bad seeds? Or was the coaching unable to control the negativity?
On the players sent away, OBJ went through 3 HCs. I am pretty good saying it was him. Snacks was who he was. He said he wasn't interested in leading. And he had a huge cap hit. He was a leader by example though and his example was one of being an individual in a team game. Not selfish, just not a great example. And so on.
If I am counting my chickens early on this draft class (a fair criticism) then anyone indicting Gettleman on the same class is guilty of same. Point being, we don't know. So the assumption is that we made some good picks and I think there is basis there for it (feel good about Jones and Big Dex, unsure about Baker, cautiously optimistic about Ximines, Connelly, Slayton, no data on Love and happy with the chances of Ballantine outperforming his draft position).
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Shep and EE are huge question marks
I don't think Golden stays past this year. He will get overpaid. BJ Hill has disappeared this year. Tomlinson is nothing but a run plugger who you let go in his contract year. He is very replaceable.
The only pieces in place that I see are
Jones, Barkley, Slayton, Hernandez, Zeitler
Lawrence, Williams (if re-signed) Connelly, Peppers
Everyone else is either unproven or injury prone.
Oh and by the way we also have no 3rd or 4th/5th rounder to help with the rebuild process
Shep and Engram are injury questions, yes. But not talent. If either has to be replaced, it adds to the list. But if it's Shep, a lot of cap space is now cleared. And if it's Engram, it might have an upside in letting us switch to more of an all around type TE.
Golden can leave and it might not make a difference if we get the big time Chase Young prize. Williams and Lawrence will still be there and X-Man was drafted to be that 2nd guy on the outside. And Carter can bring it at times as well though I like him better as an all around type. As for Hill and Tomlinson, I disagree. Hill has been the same player mostly. The sacks aren't there but the play is pretty much the same. And Tomlinson is a superlative run player and getting better.
The Shep and EE injuries are real. And they can't be relied on long-term because of them, so to me they are not foundation players. This would be 2 more positions you need to spend resources to fix.
I appreciate you trying to be positive, but I personally don't see it.
What I will say in a positive note is this. Players may look worse than they are because of the current coaching staff. So with a new coaching staff, things could look better in a hurry.
This team is a shitfest with no light at the end of the tunnel I'm afraid. Seven of the last eight years we have been witnessing horrible football. How some of you here have rose colored glasses on, and believe that we are on the right track, good for you.
It takes time to rebuild a roster.
especially when you forecast out to 2020/1...
"Pretty darn good/think they might be answers"
Agree:
RG: Zeitler
WR: Slayton
DL: Williams
S: Peppers
CB: Ballantine
Let's see:
LB: Connelly (quickness his best physical trait now w/ ACL)
CB: Baker (mental midget, maybe figures it out ~corey webster)
CB: Beal (if he can a) produce b) stay healthy
Disagree:
TE: Engram - too injury prone and we'll have to pay him soon
WR: Shepard - too injury prone, a #2 receiver at best
LG: Hernandez - Need more from the #34 overall, 2 yrs from his payday
DL: Tomlinson - good but he'll get paid and walk
DL: Hill - a JAG-
Edge: Golden - he's gone
Edge: Carter - JAG
Edge: Ximines - JAG-
S/CB: Love - can't see the field w/ Haley and Bethea
So in conclusion we need to fill all of
-LT,RT,CT, FS, ER, LB
---with depth
-----while likely losing a DT, ER, TE to FA
\_(ツ)_/
It takes time to rebuild a roster.
And Gettleman created a few holes when he got here. The first rule of getting out of a hole is to quit digging. He traded and cut a bunch of guys who are playing elsewhere and then hired a coach with a 30% winning percentage. When we start talking about the hole, take a look at the guy holding the shovel.
On the year the Giants for total Sacks T15
Wonder what the numbers are on QB hits and QB pressures?
They're not pathetic.
Players also age and become has beens. What is very terrifying are the holes we have on oline, linebackers and secondary. That is core football that we are not executing on and many wonder why we do not win games.
But for this team to actually take the next step and stop the consistent losing the 2 most important goals for talent acquisition during the next year are:
1) protect and provide Jones and Barkley (our two most valuable assets) with more competent O-Lineman to allow them to produce and reach their potential
and
2) get off the field on 3rd down which ultimately requires a strong edge rusher and an impact middle linebacker
You all can put whatever lists together you want but I will go to the mattresses with anyone who doesn't agree with the two goals above.
Everything this front office has to do, now and for the next 6 months, should revolve around figuring out what pieces are going to come from Free Agency vs the Draft with an emphasis on true experience (versus developmental) because there is little confidence we have developed anybody of value at these positions for years.
everything...
There are positives, you just have to know where to look.
1) Golden. He should be looking to max out his earnings. It will be the last opportunity for him to do so. If he is resigned, it should only be at reasonable cost. He isn't a difference maker and shouldn't be paid top dollar.
2)Edge via draft - Chase Young. Many see him as the prize, but I don't see how Washington passes up on him. I don't see us picking ahead of Washington. I presume that we'll be picking #3 or #4. The Bengals should have the top pick. Miami can't even tank properly.
3)Edge via FA - If we aren't in position to pick Young, then we need to fill the need via FA. If we resign Golden, it is because his production leveled off and is unable to earn max dollar. I would be very interested in signing Yannick Ngakoue. Josh Allen is his replacement in Jax.
4) Engram is not a building piece. He is a good player with moderate production that is acceptable on his rookie deal. But next May is the deadline to elect the 5th year option which will guarantee $8.4M. His agent knows the FT for TE is $10.6M. Any extension for Engram starts with guaranteed money of $19M. A guy who misses games; who can't block despite his best effort; is strictly a one dimensional player - a receiving TE (He is not a WR despite BBI wanting to move him since he was drafted). If a player is one dimensional, then they better be exceptional at what they do. He is not, despite BBI's proclamation that he is a match-up nightmare. He is a 590 yards/4 TDs per year player (Average over 3 years; Total 1766 yards/12 TDs).
I want to see this personnel in routine press coverage and the ERs selling out to rush the passer. In particular, I believe the ERs are a development and scheme problem, not an acquisition problem. Same at DL.
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you listed basically the entire starting defense. And our defense is absolutely terrible. Maybe these players aren't as good as we think they are.
As I said, getting the big time pass rusher has a trickle down effect but it also hinges on the CBs being what we drafted and this being rookie year struggles. A plausible though not assured assumption.
You listed Carter and XMan as "showing a lot to like" then say that they need more pass rushers. These two guys are supposed to be pass rushers and they've shown next to nothing.
Many people pointed this out at the time. Gettleman did not behave like he agreed. I don't believe the teardown/rebuild started until a quarter into last season. It's a massive failure in self-scouting. I see many of the same people who told us the Giants could compete last year now defend Gettleman using this argument.
Further, much of the 'Giants infrastructure' during the Reese years remains in place. Scouts, etc. I don't believe we got the fresh eyes we needed.
With that said, Jones looks incredible. Passing on the 2018 QBs and selecting Jones seems to be a great decision.
+1. The entire defense is nowhere near set.
--Why should the Giants overpay 2020 FA players the caliber of 2016 Snacks, Vernon and Jenkins if they came to regret their 2016 price tags?
--What's the point of cutting JJ to save $11.25m in order to overpay a CB at $15m? Beal and Baker haven't demonstrated CB1 skills and there are too many greater needs to be addressed in the draft. (Is a 1 in 3 success rate on overpaid FAs acceptable?)
--The Gettleman plan is to build through the draft, which is what makes giving up a 3rd Rd pick (~65-70) for Williams (who will be overpaid) so curious. I'd LIKE to think that DG, now armed at QB, will embrace trading down from the top 5 to one of the QB needy teams for multiple picks now that he's shorter on draft capital. Unless Chase Young is available. MIA, winning and loaded with draft assets, is suddenly a very compelling possibility as a trade partner.
Bottom line, I have low expectations for multiple, high priced FA signings. I see DG looking for the next Markus Golden and Shaq Barrett at 2019 prices. I was hoping the team would be further along than it is and be ready to compete in 2020, but I think it's an additional year away.
The Giants have way too many holes/needs to be optimistic yet.
When he's not being picked on the Defense can actually look good.
Years ago I remember when Brent Grimes was just beginning to start for the Falcons. Everyone picked on him. Next year he came back and became one of the fines D Backs in the league. Hopefully this is the plan for Baker. Only thing that bothers me is he doesn't seem to have the mentality to be an NFL star
Then you have teams like the Colts who everyone wrote off when Luck retired and are competitive because the coaching staff knows how to utilize their roster. They aren't the most talented team in the league, but they are competitive every week.
Most here will agree the only competitive games we have left are against the dolphins and redskins.
It can't be that there were no other options for LT. Gettleman's top OL target two offseasons ago was Norwell, not Solder. He must have had a plan for LT if he had signed Norwell, right? So was that plan to just trot out Flowers again?
Here's where every defense of Gettleman disintegrates: you either need to acknowledge that there was another option besides Solder that Gettleman could have opted for but went for the splash instead, or you have to at least consider the notion that the new smartest guy in the room was on the verge of bring Flowers back at LT.
Which option do you prefer to defend?
Oh, and Halapio is NOT average. He's bad.
This team is a shitfest with no light at the end of the tunnel I'm afraid. Seven of the last eight years we have been witnessing horrible football. How some of you here have rose colored glasses on, and believe that we are on the right track, good for you.
Great post. For the most part, the Giants have been very bad for a long time now. I am done with speculating. They appear to be regressing under Gettleman and Shurmur (which is remarkable). Wins will convince me they are on the right track - nothing else. The organization hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt.
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They have a couple of players left before McDermott got there. They have a great young roster and should make the playoffs this year.
It takes time to rebuild a roster.
or maybe they just know what they are doing. Weve had very little evidence that is the case here.
3 winning seasons this century; none with double digit wins.
Then, fix the lines. That will make everything easier, especially on offense.
Not sure what to fix on defense, it seems like outside of the dl,everything is a need. maybe safety, since we can't stop the pass.
I'm okay with gm for now, but we better do better in free agency.
The path to the Giants being good in 2020 is pretty simple:
1. Find a quality HC and staff. This alone will equal wins even with the roster as is.
2. Fix the offensive line. They need to land one of the top FA RTs Conklin, Bulaga, etc. Id also keep an eye out for who shakes loose at LT and C. In the draft look for prospects to compete at C and LT. Trade down and load up on OL if Young is off the board.
3. Improve the pass rush. Bud Dupree should be a target in FA. If the Giants get Chase Young, problem solved. If they get both even better.
Honorable Mention: Cutting Ogletree in favor of a competent LB in FA. The rest is more want than need in terms of wins and losses.
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The choice was made to bridge the OL. We overpaid for hoped for competency at LT when there were no other options and went with a 1 year bridge at RT this year after the inherited guys (Wheeler, Flowers) proved incapable. The center has been average.
It can't be that there were no other options for LT. Gettleman's top OL target two offseasons ago was Norwell, not Solder. He must have had a plan for LT if he had signed Norwell, right? So was that plan to just trot out Flowers again?
Here's where every defense of Gettleman disintegrates: you either need to acknowledge that there was another option besides Solder that Gettleman could have opted for but went for the splash instead, or you have to at least consider the notion that the new smartest guy in the room was on the verge of bring Flowers back at LT.
Which option do you prefer to defend?
Oh, and Halapio is NOT average. He's bad.
I havent found anyone answer this question yet either...
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In comment 14675967 mort christenson said:
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The choice was made to bridge the OL. We overpaid for hoped for competency at LT when there were no other options and went with a 1 year bridge at RT this year after the inherited guys (Wheeler, Flowers) proved incapable. The center has been average.
It can't be that there were no other options for LT. Gettleman's top OL target two offseasons ago was Norwell, not Solder. He must have had a plan for LT if he had signed Norwell, right? So was that plan to just trot out Flowers again?
Here's where every defense of Gettleman disintegrates: you either need to acknowledge that there was another option besides Solder that Gettleman could have opted for but went for the splash instead, or you have to at least consider the notion that the new smartest guy in the room was on the verge of bring Flowers back at LT.
Which option do you prefer to defend?
Oh, and Halapio is NOT average. He's bad.
I havent found anyone answer this question yet either...
Sadly, I think DG would have used Flowers... Think about that for a bit.
good post mort!!!
100% convinced Mort works for DG.
No matter what or who we are! - ( New Window )
And as stated on my own thread acknowledging Gettleman, folks shitting on him are clueless as to the fine job he's done revamping the roster to this point.
Yes Solder was a whiff, Remmers merely a stop gap, and some other vets he brought in atrocious - Stewart, Ogletree, Bethea, and one other vet I'm not particularly pleased with is at best an "OK" - Tate.
But there are a reasonable wad of franchise "foundation pieces" in place now to move forward. There really weren't, before and Pugh and Richburg were both part of that "weren't long term foundation pieces" group.
Very well laid out IMO.
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In comment 14676303 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14675967 mort christenson said:
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The choice was made to bridge the OL. We overpaid for hoped for competency at LT when there were no other options and went with a 1 year bridge at RT this year after the inherited guys (Wheeler, Flowers) proved incapable. The center has been average.
It can't be that there were no other options for LT. Gettleman's top OL target two offseasons ago was Norwell, not Solder. He must have had a plan for LT if he had signed Norwell, right? So was that plan to just trot out Flowers again?
Here's where every defense of Gettleman disintegrates: you either need to acknowledge that there was another option besides Solder that Gettleman could have opted for but went for the splash instead, or you have to at least consider the notion that the new smartest guy in the room was on the verge of bring Flowers back at LT.
Which option do you prefer to defend?
Oh, and Halapio is NOT average. He's bad.
I havent found anyone answer this question yet either...
Sadly, I think DG would have used Flowers... Think about that for a bit.
I don't. I am not a big fan of DG's decisions but that would be an egregious one. I think DG would have selected what was available in Rd 2 (instead of Hernandez) or try to move up into back half of Rd 1 and pick a left tackle.
The point though is to refute this ridiculous stance by many, many posters that DG's hands were tied and he had to go Solder and make him the highest paid LT.
And I am being nice with ridiculous...
Quote:
The choice was made to bridge the OL. We overpaid for hoped for competency at LT when there were no other options and went with a 1 year bridge at RT this year after the inherited guys (Wheeler, Flowers) proved incapable. The center has been average.
It can't be that there were no other options for LT. Gettleman's top OL target two offseasons ago was Norwell, not Solder. He must have had a plan for LT if he had signed Norwell, right? So was that plan to just trot out Flowers again?
Here's where every defense of Gettleman disintegrates: you either need to acknowledge that there was another option besides Solder that Gettleman could have opted for but went for the splash instead, or you have to at least consider the notion that the new smartest guy in the room was on the verge of bring Flowers back at LT.
Which option do you prefer to defend?
Oh, and Halapio is NOT average. He's bad.
There probably was "other" options. There had to be some LT's available, but the question for me is, were they more of a risk than a player like solder? They would have been much cheaper, but would they just be another flowers? I don't think the answer to this question is so simple.
So, what about trading for an LT? Well, I'm sure someone was willing to part with an older proven tackle for the right price, or willing to move a younger inexperienced tackle that really didn't have any game tape on them.
I don't really see this Solder situation as a simple glaring, easy to identify mistake. Was it a mistake? In some context, sure. The giants have not received close to what they are paying solder in game performance. To me that also shows how possibly thin available talent is available at the LT position, premium position.
Lastly, I don't get why opinions around here are necessarily labeled as a defense or an attack on Gettleman. I don't see Mort post very often, so to me I don't know if he is defending Gettleman vs explaining their POV.
I also have to confess I have gone after posters wrongly regarding Gettleman. I have labeled posters as Gettleman bashers when I didn't know their true intention.
It can be quite difficult to have a discussion while remembering that we don't know people's intentions.
What was the solution?
Then, fix the lines. That will make everything easier, especially on offense.
Not sure what to fix on defense, it seems like outside of the dl,everything is a need. maybe safety, since we can't stop the pass.
I'm okay with gm for now, but we better do better in free agency.
What is this, Homecoming Week on BBI?
Nice to see a lot of old handles popping up.
So your problem isn't the play of Solder, just the money?
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average just like Solder for a lot less money. Preferably younger as well in case something could be developed there.
So your problem isn't the play of Solder, just the money?
I said it was a mistake in every way you can look at it, including restructuring his deal.
You want to debate this or is there something else that is confusing?
Or he miscalculated how bad the team he had was including keeping an immobile Eli, he entered his free agency and lost out on his first choice Norwell, he had to calm his new boss and Eli because he promised he was going to fix the line, Solder was a name out there which would be very expensive despite him being average and getting worse, and DG became desperate. All that adds up.
good enough for you?
That makes this not reasonable. For you maybe but not an experienced General Manager...
Quote:
I don't really see this Solder situation as a simple glaring, easy to identify mistake.
Yes, I outlined why in a reasonable manner. That doesn't mean that I think my way is absolute.
You assumed snarkiness. Absolutely none on my end in any of my responses. Although I doubt that you trust what I say, which is fine.
I felt you were clearly being snarky, if I was wrong, apologize.
That's a recurring theme with DG in FA. Regardless of whether or not the price is too high, the talent acquired turns out to be too low, often shockingly low.
As everyone who ever signed a contract realizes.
The GM signed a contract assuming Performance
Solder signed assuming his Performance
If Solder was not injured or performed 15-20% better...is this a big problem for the team?
Any Gm is only responsible for a decision with risk (all decisions have a lot risk). The player has to perform and injuries have to be minimal. Its a ratio of price to performance.
To paraphrase Gisele, is he supposed to thrown the ball and catch the ball?
What I don't get is not the critique of the decision but the:
1) "Halo Effect" thinking
2) Absolutism otherwise known as dogma
3) Arrogance towards anyone who points out anything mitigating the group think associated
4) Snide accusations towards anyone who isn't following the dogma that Solders performance is convincing proof that DG is worse than the poster would be at being a GM.
The first rule of being a repeatedly good problem solver is to ruthlessly self assess all you do not know.
And then seek to understand more.
Then generate alternatives.
Then propose a solution and wait for the opposing feedback.
In my experience, guys who cant think and are nervous that its noticeable or wish they were smarter are default to arrogant polemic. Arrogant guys are needy guys
Ten years x 32 teams x 16 games is 5,120 games. GM's are winning 53% of the time.
No one on BBI was part of winning one game. Ever.
Does that mean we cant critique GM's or that we didn't see that Reese was a disaster? Does that mean we cant analyze how Dg is doing? Not at all. Not at all
But some humility about how much we don't know would actually help us better analyze what we are seeing.
For me, watching the team is enough of a dose of stupid.
But I don't get how NFL GMS compile a combined 53% Ws!!!!
Quote:
In comment 14675967 mort christenson said:
Quote:
The choice was made to bridge the OL. We overpaid for hoped for competency at LT when there were no other options and went with a 1 year bridge at RT this year after the inherited guys (Wheeler, Flowers) proved incapable. The center has been average.
It can't be that there were no other options for LT. Gettleman's top OL target two offseasons ago was Norwell, not Solder. He must have had a plan for LT if he had signed Norwell, right? So was that plan to just trot out Flowers again?
Here's where every defense of Gettleman disintegrates: you either need to acknowledge that there was another option besides Solder that Gettleman could have opted for but went for the splash instead, or you have to at least consider the notion that the new smartest guy in the room was on the verge of bring Flowers back at LT.
Which option do you prefer to defend?
Oh, and Halapio is NOT average. He's bad.
There probably was "other" options. There had to be some LT's available, but the question for me is, were they more of a risk than a player like solder? They would have been much cheaper, but would they just be another flowers? I don't think the answer to this question is so simple.
So, what about trading for an LT? Well, I'm sure someone was willing to part with an older proven tackle for the right price, or willing to move a younger inexperienced tackle that really didn't have any game tape on them.
I don't really see this Solder situation as a simple glaring, easy to identify mistake. Was it a mistake? In some context, sure. The giants have not received close to what they are paying solder in game performance. To me that also shows how possibly thin available talent is available at the LT position, premium position.
Lastly, I don't get why opinions around here are necessarily labeled as a defense or an attack on Gettleman. I don't see Mort post very often, so to me I don't know if he is defending Gettleman vs explaining their POV.
I also have to confess I have gone after posters wrongly regarding Gettleman. I have labeled posters as Gettleman bashers when I didn't know their true intention.
It can be quite difficult to have a discussion while remembering that we don't know people's intentions.
I can appreciate your take here, Crick. As Jimmy mentioned above, the point isn't who the other LT options were in the 2018 offseason, just that so many rationalize the Solder signing (and the albatross that the contract has become) by framing the transaction with a context that cannot possibly be true: that Gettleman had no other choice but to sign Solder. For anyone who genuinely believes that, it would necessarily follow that his initial intention to pursue Norwell would amount to a professional malfeasance because it would have precluded Gettleman from signing the ONLY left tackle option available.
It has always been obvious that there were other options. For whatever reasons, Gettleman landed on Solder, but it wasn't because that was the only choice available to him.
Once we get that critical element settled, we can actually discuss what might have gone wrong:
Did Solder decline more rapidly than anyone could have foreseen (probably, although I specifically remember at least one poster here on BBI noting that Solder had started to allow more pressures in his last season with the Pats, so there were warning signs)?
Did our pro personnel scouting fail Gettleman? This one seems pretty likely since there have been a number of other really mediocre (and overpaid for that mediocrity) free agents signed recently.
Did Gettleman act out of desperation because of a mandate from ownership to surround Eli with veteran talent for one more attempt at a playoff run? This one feels likely even if it's a little bit conspiracy theory-ish.
Did Gettleman misjudge the talent level of the roster of his own accord? This one is the key question, IMO. This one goes right to the crux of whether DG is going to be an advantage or a liability going forward. So far, it does feel like he has a bit of a blind spot when self-scouting, that he perhaps overestimates the talent level of his own roster. If that is the case, this rebuild will take an exceedingly long time and if it ever does bear fruit, will be, to some degree, by accident.
We'll learn a lot more about the answers to those questions above when we see how DG approaches free agency this coming offseason, armed with a fair amount of cap room and what should be an obvious familiarity with the strengths and weaknesses of his own roster. Let's see how he addresses it.
Thanks again.
Memories light the corners of my mind
Misty water-colored memories of the way we were
Scattered pictures of the smiles we left behind
Smiles we gave to one another for the way we were
Can it be that it was all so simple then
Or has time rewritten every line
And if we had the chance to do it all again
Just tell me, tell me, would we, would we?
Could we, could we?
As everyone who ever signed a contract realizes.
The GM signed a contract assuming Performance
Solder signed assuming his Performance
If Solder was not injured or performed 15-20% better...is this a big problem for the team?
Any Gm is only responsible for a decision with risk (all decisions have a lot risk). The player has to perform and injuries have to be minimal. Its a ratio of price to performance.
To paraphrase Gisele, is he supposed to thrown the ball and catch the ball?
What I don't get is not the critique of the decision but the:
1) "Halo Effect" thinking
2) Absolutism otherwise known as dogma
3) Arrogance towards anyone who points out anything mitigating the group think associated
4) Snide accusations towards anyone who isn't following the dogma that Solders performance is convincing proof that DG is worse than the poster would be at being a GM.
The first rule of being a repeatedly good problem solver is to ruthlessly self assess all you do not know.
And then seek to understand more.
Then generate alternatives.
Then propose a solution and wait for the opposing feedback.
In my experience, guys who cant think and are nervous that its noticeable or wish they were smarter are default to arrogant polemic. Arrogant guys are needy guys
Ten years x 32 teams x 16 games is 5,120 games. GM's are winning 53% of the time.
No one on BBI was part of winning one game. Ever.
Does that mean we cant critique GM's or that we didn't see that Reese was a disaster? Does that mean we cant analyze how Dg is doing? Not at all. Not at all
But some humility about how much we don't know would actually help us better analyze what we are seeing.
For me, watching the team is enough of a dose of stupid.
👍 cricknantarcticabrrr like's this
Quote:
In comment 14676303 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14675967 mort christenson said:
Quote:
The choice was made to bridge the OL. We overpaid for hoped for competency at LT when there were no other options and went with a 1 year bridge at RT this year after the inherited guys (Wheeler, Flowers) proved incapable. The center has been average.
It can't be that there were no other options for LT. Gettleman's top OL target two offseasons ago was Norwell, not Solder. He must have had a plan for LT if he had signed Norwell, right? So was that plan to just trot out Flowers again?
Here's where every defense of Gettleman disintegrates: you either need to acknowledge that there was another option besides Solder that Gettleman could have opted for but went for the splash instead, or you have to at least consider the notion that the new smartest guy in the room was on the verge of bring Flowers back at LT.
Which option do you prefer to defend?
Oh, and Halapio is NOT average. He's bad.
There probably was "other" options. There had to be some LT's available, but the question for me is, were they more of a risk than a player like solder? They would have been much cheaper, but would they just be another flowers? I don't think the answer to this question is so simple.
So, what about trading for an LT? Well, I'm sure someone was willing to part with an older proven tackle for the right price, or willing to move a younger inexperienced tackle that really didn't have any game tape on them.
I don't really see this Solder situation as a simple glaring, easy to identify mistake. Was it a mistake? In some context, sure. The giants have not received close to what they are paying solder in game performance. To me that also shows how possibly thin available talent is available at the LT position, premium position.
Lastly, I don't get why opinions around here are necessarily labeled as a defense or an attack on Gettleman. I don't see Mort post very often, so to me I don't know if he is defending Gettleman vs explaining their POV.
I also have to confess I have gone after posters wrongly regarding Gettleman. I have labeled posters as Gettleman bashers when I didn't know their true intention.
It can be quite difficult to have a discussion while remembering that we don't know people's intentions.
I can appreciate your take here, Crick. As Jimmy mentioned above, the point isn't who the other LT options were in the 2018 offseason, just that so many rationalize the Solder signing (and the albatross that the contract has become) by framing the transaction with a context that cannot possibly be true: that Gettleman had no other choice but to sign Solder. For anyone who genuinely believes that, it would necessarily follow that his initial intention to pursue Norwell would amount to a professional malfeasance because it would have precluded Gettleman from signing the ONLY left tackle option available.
It has always been obvious that there were other options. For whatever reasons, Gettleman landed on Solder, but it wasn't because that was the only choice available to him.
Once we get that critical element settled, we can actually discuss what might have gone wrong:
Did Solder decline more rapidly than anyone could have foreseen (probably, although I specifically remember at least one poster here on BBI noting that Solder had started to allow more pressures in his last season with the Pats, so there were warning signs)?
Did our pro personnel scouting fail Gettleman? This one seems pretty likely since there have been a number of other really mediocre (and overpaid for that mediocrity) free agents signed recently.
Did Gettleman act out of desperation because of a mandate from ownership to surround Eli with veteran talent for one more attempt at a playoff run? This one feels likely even if it's a little bit conspiracy theory-ish.
Did Gettleman misjudge the talent level of the roster of his own accord? This one is the key question, IMO. This one goes right to the crux of whether DG is going to be an advantage or a liability going forward. So far, it does feel like he has a bit of a blind spot when self-scouting, that he perhaps overestimates the talent level of his own roster. If that is the case, this rebuild will take an exceedingly long time and if it ever does bear fruit, will be, to some degree, by accident.
We'll learn a lot more about the answers to those questions above when we see how DG approaches free agency this coming offseason, armed with a fair amount of cap room and what should be an obvious familiarity with the strengths and weaknesses of his own roster. Let's see how he addresses it.
Well said GD...
I think a number of the Gentleman critics point to self scouting, and pro player scouting as his biggest weaknesses. Which leads to the inevitable fears that giving him 60M to spend in FA will turn out to be an utter disaster. It plays into the 2 areas that he has so far displayed as his Achilles heals.