I keep hearing the Giants are 3-4 years away. I also hear Gettleman deserves at minimum 3 years to see this through - I think all of that is bullshit.
The Raiders sold off their team LAST YEAR. Everyone here wanted no part of trading for David Carr (so, don’t tell me the Raiders were super talented). Yet, they are 5-4 one year later with a good chance to make the playoffs.
Are we all so beaten down as a fan base where we keep saying this is a 4-5 year rebuild & Gettleman needs more time? Look around the NFL - it should NOT take this long to be competitive (this team doesn’t even compete in losses). We are in worse shape than we were in 2017!!
Look at the Raiders. It should not take this long to be competitive.
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They tried to give it a go because that's really the only viable option.
Many of us were prepared for a tear down. My biggest criticism of DG is that I don't think his actions in 2018 seemed to move in that direction.
The actions in 2019 do. I'm fine with the strategy this year - whether it pays off, I'm not sure. DG has lost a lot of my confidence due to poor self-scouting and failures along the OL.
I'm not as harsh or strongly against DG as Go Terps is, for example. But my leash is short.
He gave it a go, and then pivoted midseason and did the tear down. I actually respect that.
Some people preferred that he start that way. I say, what was lost? About 8 games as I see it. But at least we knew. Gettleman, through his actions, has shown the ability to admit mistakes and cut losses. I like that. He might not have done it on your schedule, but he did do it, and has been proactive since.
If they go 5-11, I imagine we'll hear more bullshit about how it's part of the rebuild.
Bottom line - he's done a lousy job to date.
Yep. When the scenario they predicted didn't come to pass (at ALL), they simply shifted gears and claimed that this was all part of a master plan.
Our situation is entirely different. Gettleman/Shurmur do not have that kind of leash & Shurmur doesn’t have say in personnel decisions.
If they go 5-11, I imagine we'll hear more bullshit about how it's part of the rebuild.
Even more reason to cheer the team on. :)
I'm not as harsh or strongly against DG as Go Terps is, for example. But my leash is short.
Especially when looking at the body of work of the HC. The failures on the OL are legitimate issues too. I don't disagree with that.
Just like I tried to explain to McL's question to me above - I'm not some guy waving pom-poms for Gettleman. I'm just not swinging a pitchfork at him for each and every move. That's a key difference. I also don't dismiss why people act as if his entire career has been terrible when it hasn't, and in order to crap on him here, they crap on him for Carolina - which is pretty inexplicable to me, especially when he is looked very fondly by the fans here.
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Fatman, I don't agree with this at all:
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They tried to give it a go because that's really the only viable option.
Many of us were prepared for a tear down. My biggest criticism of DG is that I don't think his actions in 2018 seemed to move in that direction.
The actions in 2019 do. I'm fine with the strategy this year - whether it pays off, I'm not sure. DG has lost a lot of my confidence due to poor self-scouting and failures along the OL.
I'm not as harsh or strongly against DG as Go Terps is, for example. But my leash is short.
He gave it a go, and then pivoted midseason and did the tear down. I actually respect that.
Some people preferred that he start that way. I say, what was lost? About 8 games as I see it. But at least we knew. Gettleman, through his actions, has shown the ability to admit mistakes and cut losses. I like that. He might not have done it on your schedule, but he did do it, and has been proactive since.
I don't respect it at all - it was a massive failure in self-scouting.
We also signed Solder, kept Eli on, and wasted picks on Ogletree (and that's off the top of my head). We wasted cap space on resources meant to win today that we could have rolled forward.
I was fine with the DG hire. I was not thrilled, but fine. I give him credit for CAR's success - just like I give Reese for his success here. I was alarmed when he made moves I thought were made with the intent of winning now. I was also alarmed that much of the scouting infrastructure remained in place.
I did not like picking a RB at #2. I do very much like that he ignored the calls for a QB in 2018 and picked an unpopular one in 2019 - and is seemingly right in that approach so far. I wanted a QB in 2018, but I don't watch college football so I don't know who was actually good. The stars seemed to align. I admire him ignoring that and then going after his guy the following year.
I think his FA's have been atrocious. I'm far more cautious on his drafts than others. They still need time.
So I agree, a mixed bag. I'm fine with another year from him.
I was 100% wrong on Shurmur, though. I wanted him hired and he is brutal.
I fully admit to being disgusted by Gettleman being hired in the first place so yeah, my views are undoubtedly colored by that. Still, given what we've seen so far, he's given me few reasons to reconsider that judgment. Jones has been better than expected, Connelly looked decent in the brief time he played, Lawrence could be very good, Hernandez has shown some promise (although he hasn't progressed at all from last year to this year), Slayton's been a pleasant surprise. That's pretty much it as far as positives go, and there is a mountain of negatives outweighing them.
Hernandez - in particular - is often sold as a sure thing along the lines when I think he's struggled wildly at times. He's not 05 Chris Snee yet.
We don't have Mayock running our draft and we don't have a good coach.
And our owner is absolutely clueless.
I don't think thats necessarily true. Our record is worse, but its a completely different team with a rookie QB who is turning over the ball at an alarming rate. Some of these things are TBD, but its really splitting hairs I guess. We're bottom of the league bad.
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The actions in 2019 do. I'm fine with the strategy this year - whether it pays off, I'm not sure. DG has lost a lot of my confidence due to poor self-scouting and failures along the OL.
I'm not as harsh or strongly against DG as Go Terps is, for example. But my leash is short.
Especially when looking at the body of work of the HC. The failures on the OL are legitimate issues too. I don't disagree with that.
Just like I tried to explain to McL's question to me above - I'm not some guy waving pom-poms for Gettleman. I'm just not swinging a pitchfork at him for each and every move. That's a key difference. I also don't dismiss why people act as if his entire career has been terrible when it hasn't, and in order to crap on him here, they crap on him for Carolina - which is pretty inexplicable to me, especially when he is looked very fondly by the fans here.
I can only speak for myself, I never crapped on him for Carolina. I couldn't care less about Carolina. I judge him 100% on what he has done here with the Giants.
I do think there is a pivot going on here by those who used to say that the critics never gave him a chance, to that the critics aren't giving him enough of a chance.
I find it amazing how much credit he gets for cutting Omameh after signing him, and trading OBJ after signing him. Ok both the cutting and the trading were good moves. He gets a modicum of credit for them, but shouldn't the original mistake weight much more heavily? Ogletree, Stewart, Bethea, and Tate, are just more frustrating examples of FA/cap mistakes. Mistakes that idiots on fan boards had the foresight to see. Tate is a decent player, especially as a 2nd or 3rd option on a team with SB aspirations. He does nothing for the Giants.
To say that this team is not owned by Gettleman is just mouth breathing revisionist history.
The majority of the dead cap space this year was of his own making. Did you guys know that releasing Tanney, and the resigning him created 1.1M of dead cap? Releasing Pierre created another 1M. You can blame Vernon 8M, Harrison 3M and Apple 2M on Reese. The other ~24M is all Gettleman.
There are only 9 players left from before he got here.
Only 4 of these see significant snaps. Jenkins, Tomlinson, Engram and Shepard.
Gettleman participated in hiring Shurmur.
The product on the field is almost entirely the creation of Gettleman and this CS. How he is not to be held accountable until they suffer through yet another disastrous season is beyond my comprehension.
This thread is proof of the one-sidedness. People were convinced last season that Gruden was done. That the Raiders were wayward. And a year later, we look at them as a rebuild that can happen. That should give people pause when stating assertively that our team is getting worse and that there "is no doubt" the team is moving in the wrong direction.
How is the fact that the Raiders are moving in the right direction supposed to give us pause about the direction of the Giants?
The Raiders were arguably worse off talentwise than the Giants were last year.
And yet, they have made a number of moves that have made noticeable improvements in that team. Whether people thought Gruden was done or not, He and Mayock have given a reason to have confidence in what they are doing. Why should anybody have confidence in what the Giants are doing given what is happening on the field?
We would be wise to copy that move in way be shipping Barkley and Engram. Believe in the "RBs grow on trees" theory and it shouldn't be too challenging to find a solution for TE. We won't get the Mack package, but we could get something that gives us a chance to address a lot needs with young blood...
Of course, that assumes we have competent coaching to develop. So I realize I am making a leap... :)
We would be wise to copy that move in way be shipping Barkley and Engram. Believe in the "RBs grow on trees" theory and it shouldn't be too challenging to find a solution for TE. We won't get the Mack package, but we could get something that gives us a chance to address a lot needs with young blood...
Of course, that assumes we have competent coaching to develop. So I realize I am making a leap... :)
LOL, a huge leap...
But yeah, I would trade Barkley in a heartbeat for a decent package. Problem is I doubt we can get as much now as we could have gotten on draft day. I don't mind trading Engram either, he just can't stay healthy and this team doesn't know how to use him.
Look - a lot of it comes down to frustration. I said last year when people were bitching about the Barkley pick that if we had Darnold, we'd still suck. The response from many was that at least the arrow would be pointing up so watching the struggle would be OK. I said that was bullshit - and people would be bitching no matter what, simply because we are losing
Well here we are a year later and Eli was benched and Jones is starting and the team is struggling. Do people think the arrow is pointing up and they are fine with the losses??
The idea anyone here has the patience to let this play out is complete foolishness. Nobody this time last year thought the Raiders were going to turn things around. Now that they are mediocre, we have people acting like this was easily seen. I wonder if their fans want Mayock's head on a stick for trading for Antonio Brown? No. Why? Because they have won a few games and are competitive. And in the end of the season, it is still likely they will miss the playoffs. Yet - their rebuild is something at least a couple members of this board are keen on.
Look - a lot of it comes down to frustration. I said last year when people were bitching about the Barkley pick that if we had Darnold, we'd still suck. The response from many was that at least the arrow would be pointing up so watching the struggle would be OK. I said that was bullshit - and people would be bitching no matter what, simply because we are losing
Well here we are a year later and Eli was benched and Jones is starting and the team is struggling. Do people think the arrow is pointing up and they are fine with the losses??
The idea anyone here has the patience to let this play out is complete foolishness. Nobody this time last year thought the Raiders were going to turn things around. Now that they are mediocre, we have people acting like this was easily seen. I wonder if their fans want Mayock's head on a stick for trading for Antonio Brown? No. Why? Because they have won a few games and are competitive. And in the end of the season, it is still likely they will miss the playoffs. Yet - their rebuild is something at least a couple members of this board are keen on.
No progress is being made here. I’m surprised you are beating this drum. We just lost to the fucking Jets and Saquon gained 1 yard. After we go 3-13 you want to stay the course? Seriously?
So taking a RB at #24 is a bit more tolerable than one at #2.
Did people think the Raiders were making progress last season? Did people think the Niners were? They lost to us!!
You know who people lauded as making progress? The Browns. And the Bears.
It is the outcome of people needing immediate information and understanding. Power rankings, grades. Discussion of teams tanking. Think about it - if truly horrible teams are tanking for the draft, is the supposition that one player will make them contenders, or could they not be as horrible as portrayed?
What I know is that we lead the league in snaps by rookies by a pretty large margin. Mistakes will be made. The vast unknown is will it lead to improvement? Some of you are sure on the answer. Ask yourself if you were just as sure last season with other teams.
You know who people lauded as making progress? The Browns. And the Bears.
People's beliefs for all of those scenarios were completely flipped, which serves as a bit of a cautionary tale here, shouldn't it?
As bw said, #24 with other picks around it, is much more tolerable than #2, still not a fan, but its not egregious.
Look - a lot of it comes down to frustration. I said last year when people were bitching about the Barkley pick that if we had Darnold, we'd still suck. The response from many was that at least the arrow would be pointing up so watching the struggle would be OK. I said that was bullshit - and people would be bitching no matter what, simply because we are losing
Whenever we have this debate, you are always taking it back to Darnold. There were a bunch of folks including myself who were not enamored of the 2018 QBs who never wanted Darnold. The Giants never wanted him or any of the other 2018 QBs, so going back to this is just a red herring. IMO the right move (by far again IMO) was to trade down. Some would have drafted Nelson, some Chubb. Debating what the team would be with Darnold is pointless.
And you can't just take Barkley away without sufficient replacement. Which is th other thing that you do when we have this discussion. You will say, "Are you suggesting the team would be better without Barkley". NO, that is another red herring. But they would be better had they used that draft capital to fix other problems on the team.
Well here we are a year later and Eli was benched and Jones is starting and the team is struggling. Do people think the arrow is pointing up and they are fine with the losses??
Since it was never about Darnold as far as I am concerned, this is yet another red herring. I have given various scenarios where the Giants could have come away with at least 2 more strong OL players. Obviating the need to sign Solder, and having by now 4 or possibly 5 solid young players on the OL. If the team had that, I think everybody would be feeling much better about the "arrow", and even if the team was losing because the defense still sucked, at least we would be seeing solid play from the offense. That would give a lot more confidence in the direction of the team.
The idea anyone here has the patience to let this play out is complete foolishness. Nobody this time last year thought the Raiders were going to turn things around. Now that they are mediocre, we have people acting like this was easily seen. I wonder if their fans want Mayock's head on a stick for trading for Antonio Brown? No. Why? Because they have won a few games and are competitive. And in the end of the season, it is still likely they will miss the playoffs. Yet - their rebuild is something at least a couple members of this board are keen on.
I think you severely underestimate the patience that many people have for this rebuild. The problem is, even with patience, there should be signs of improvement. Those signs are not there. The list of needs never grows shorter. If there were signs of progress, I know I would have much more patience. When DG got here I was saying that 2020 would be the first possible year of being competitive. And 2021 would be the first year the team could be in contention for the SB. Those timelines seem wildly optimistic now. 2 years, and we seem no closer to being a SB contender now than we did when DG took over. That is going to cause impatience.
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Did people think the Raiders were making progress last season? Did people think the Niners were? They lost to us!!
You know who people lauded as making progress? The Browns. And the Bears.
People's beliefs for all of those scenarios were completely flipped, which serves as a bit of a cautionary tale here, shouldn't it?
Here's the cautionary tale: Jerry Reese in 2016. In an attempt to save his job Gettleman is about to engage in a Reese-like FA spending spree. It's already begun with the idiotic Williams trade.
What's past is prologue.
That’s fine, but you have also said Shurmur should be fired. That is counter to what you are saying here. Shouldn’t Shurmur then be given more time to see this through based on your logic?
Did people think the Raiders were making progress last season? Did people think the Niners were? They lost to us!!
The niners were in that game and nearly won with a 4th string UDFA QB in his first year on the 53 man roster.
I don't have patience for what the Giants did - try to compete and then decide to haphazardly rebuild once it was clear there was no other option. Even then, they kept Eli on - which was another mistake.
I do feel much better about this season than last season. Having a guy who looks like he can be a really good QB is thrilling.
But I don't have faith in the process/plan or ability of Gettleman & Co.
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before it's finished being written, as fans.
That’s fine, but you have also said Shurmur should be fired. That is counter to what you are saying here. Shouldn’t Shurmur then be given more time to see this through based on your logic?
I have personally soured on the guy but if they bring him back I understand why they would and am not going to go ballistic on this message board about it.
By far the loudest and most aggressive contingent were those who said that passing on a QB would set the franchise back years. We were regaled about it being the perfect time to move away from Eli and by not doing that - it was a "fireable offense" to use a tired phrase. Yes - there were people who wanted a trade down, but that wasn't the prevalent opinion.
You had posters months later talking about the historic QB class of 2018, with a couple of threads started asking if more HoF'ers would come from those QB's vs. 2004. After the Jets beat the Lions week 1, the Darnold posts were all over.
What is a red herring to you certainly wasn't for the majority of the board. Surely you realize that.
I don't have patience for what the Giants did - try to compete and then decide to haphazardly rebuild once it was clear there was no other option. Even then, they kept Eli on - which was another mistake.
I do feel much better about this season than last season. Having a guy who looks like he can be a really good QB is thrilling.
But I don't have faith in the process/plan or ability of Gettleman & Co.
And that is the problem, people have lost faith in DG & co. Outside of the Jones pick, he has inspired zero confidence that he has any idea how to build the rest of the team.
We are being asked to have patience in the face of nothing that warrants patience. Is there a single position group that has shown improved play in the last 2 years?
By far the loudest and most aggressive contingent were those who said that passing on a QB would set the franchise back years. We were regaled about it being the perfect time to move away from Eli and by not doing that - it was a "fireable offense" to use a tired phrase. Yes - there were people who wanted a trade down, but that wasn't the prevalent opinion.
You had posters months later talking about the historic QB class of 2018, with a couple of threads started asking if more HoF'ers would come from those QB's vs. 2004. After the Jets beat the Lions week 1, the Darnold posts were all over.
What is a red herring to you certainly wasn't for the majority of the board. Surely you realize that.
I will grant that there were loud contingents of groups of posters calling for drafting Darnold and Rosen, and to a lesser extent Allen.
That being said, it is a mistake by you to lump everybody you debate with into those categories. And at the end of the day, drafting one of those QBs was never going to happen, and as it turns out (with the exception of LJ who was on almost nobody's radar) probably rightfully so.
I am surprised to find that you were in favor of a trade down (so was Eric BTW). I don't recall your comments in general at the time, but you did take an opposing position with me at the time. I recall that.
Whether people predicted it or not is irrelevant. The Raiders are winning and we are losing. Again.
It seems they have capitalized at a much better rate than Jints Central in all markets - trades, free agency, and draft. And in a football infrastructure where the coach, Gruden, has ultimate say over all football operations.
Whether people predicted it or not is irrelevant. The Raiders are winning and we are losing. Again.
It seems they have capitalized at a much better rate than Jints Central in all markets - trades, free agency, and draft. And in a football infrastructure where the coach, Gruden, has ultimate say over all football operations.
My point was rebuilding doesn’t need to take long. We have posters saying the Giants won’t be good for another 4 years!!! That’s bullshit. Come up with a vision & see it through. I don’t see that with this regime.
What FMiC is missing - we aren’t even competitive. 2-8, 3-7 & 2-8 the last 3 years. The Raiders tore it down last year and are 5-4. We can’t even compete. We can’t even make it go Columbus Day.
The Dolphins are 2-7 and have gutted their roster - they are competing more than the Giants are.
Come on. How can anyone think otherwise?
bw in dc : 8:57 pm : link : reply
but I think the purpose of the OP's post was to explore why the Raiders have made this quick turnaround (to date - they could still slip).
So because they went from terrible to mediocre in one season, that's quick? Or is it that they are mediocre after having 6 of their last 7 seasons under .500, including three 4 win seasons and a 3 win season?
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I can't speak for everyone...
bw in dc : 8:57 pm : link : reply
but I think the purpose of the OP's post was to explore why the Raiders have made this quick turnaround (to date - they could still slip).
So because they went from terrible to mediocre in one season, that's quick? Or is it that they are mediocre after having 6 of their last 7 seasons under .500, including three 4 win seasons and a 3 win season?
They are a helluva lot further along than we are. And they are squarely in the playoff hunt. And, this it important, they have done this by being on the road for the last six weeks. They have to have more travel miles than any team in the NFL - by far.
I can imagine back to 2016. That sure was fun..... The ecstasy was palpitating.
Just like people proclaiming the Browns on the road to glory after finishing below .500 last season, how many examples of teams improving are we going to be shown as models that aren't anything tangible to follow? Or for that matter - be envious of.
I think a lot of the fanbase has gone down the same path as the organization: too comfortable with losing.
This board has been drowning in an ocean of excuses and rationalizations that all are in denial of the fact that the organization is broken. That seems too uncomfortable a thought for some.
In FMiC's eyes, luck is a huge element in the NFL. Other teams are just experiencing a run of better luck than we are for now. So let's keep our fingers crossed, rub some rabbit's feet, and avoid black cats, and eventually Gettleman will get it right.
How else can you explain the lengths he goes to every day to justify Gettleman's moves?
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I can't speak for everyone...
bw in dc : 8:57 pm : link : reply
but I think the purpose of the OP's post was to explore why the Raiders have made this quick turnaround (to date - they could still slip).
So because they went from terrible to mediocre in one season, that's quick? Or is it that they are mediocre after having 6 of their last 7 seasons under .500, including three 4 win seasons and a 3 win season?
No, they brought in a new regime at the same time we did. They tore the team down to the bones at the same time that we did.
As bw has said, we don't know how sustainable what they have built is, but they have shown clear improvement. The regime has given people a reason to believe that they are moving in the right direction and that they deserve more time.
What reasons do we have to believe in this regime?
I think a lot of the fanbase has gone down the same path as the organization: too comfortable with losing.
This board has been drowning in an ocean of excuses and rationalizations that all are in denial of the fact that the organization is broken. That seems too uncomfortable a thought for some.
I remember BBI when posters mocked Fassel for his incompetence. Until his last year, a Fassel led Giant team was never worse than 7-9. Think about that.
And that is the issue at hand.
So both teams started their rebuilding race basically side by side. The Raiders have been worse than the Giants over a longer period. Both teams had a severe lack of talent and needed to restock their shelves.
Both took lumps last year. The Raiders traded their best players both before and during the season.
Now this year in "Phase 2" for both teams, the Giants can't beat anyone. The Raiders, are 5-4, have had 10 rookies get significant snaps in games, and have the most TD's scored by rookies (12).
Maybe the Raiders are taking advantage of a softer than expected schedule. But that was the same rationale given during the summer by some fans for why the Giants might be able to stay competitive through Thanksgiving. Was asking for the team to be 4-6 or 5-5 at this moment all that unreasonable?
Oakland may make the playoffs while Giants fans are hoping to be high enough to get, at minimum, the #3 spot in the draft.
Raiders had to replace 3/5ths of its offensive line after having perhaps the best o-line in the NFL in 2016.
You can see some the players on the Raiders and pinpoint pieces that will be part of their future right on the field as they are making immediate contributions AND they have the additional draft capital in the bank so reinforcements are coming soon. They don't have to use the "We're playing rookies! What do you expect?" excuse.
Here, we can't even on ONE hand count the amount of offensive and defensive linemen we would even want to keep going into next season.
Raiders have given their fans legitimate hope. Giants are trying to sell you that things are not as bad as it looks.
I got trading OBJ, that’s a hit. And yeah I know he signed him first but then the interview where OBJ took a shit on the entire NYG organization came out. Good value, not great, sent a message, got some other personnel traded. A hit.
I won’t list Jones as a hit b/c it’s still way too soon to tell.
What else is a hit? Not saying there aren’t any, just that they aren’t jumping out at me.
Not really sure why anyone’s giving DG much credit for anything or the benefit of the doubt. The LW trade is just bizarre. He isn’t some kind of cap wizard. DG seems lost to me.
Legitimate? Let me guess, the Browns gave their fans legitimate hope last season, right? Legitimacy comes in the form of sustained winning or at least a couple years of it.
The Giants don't get credit for 2016. The Raiders, Browns and any other teams that may not even break .500 shouldn't either.