I keep hearing the Giants are 3-4 years away. I also hear Gettleman deserves at minimum 3 years to see this through - I think all of that is bullshit.
The Raiders sold off their team LAST YEAR. Everyone here wanted no part of trading for David Carr (so, dont tell me the Raiders were super talented). Yet, they are 5-4 one year later with a good chance to make the playoffs.
Are we all so beaten down as a fan base where we keep saying this is a 4-5 year rebuild & Gettleman needs more time? Look around the NFL - it should NOT take this long to be competitive (this team doesnt even compete in losses). We are in worse shape than we were in 2017!!
Look at the Raiders. It should not take this long to be competitive.
Coaching makes a huge difference
Gettleman has done an objectively terrible job.
Looks like that was a very smart move to ignite the rebuild.
And they are loaded with draft picks - high draft picks - in the next two drafts.
Still early, but looks like Mayock and Gruden had a plan and are executing it fairly well.
They have done a terrific job, btw, of building one of the best OLs in the NFL, too...
Coaching makes a huge difference
Thats the point. Rebuilds shouldnt take this long. Clear the deck & stop fucking around.
It shouldnt take
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We have a proven loser in Shurmur
Coaching makes a huge difference
Thats the point. Rebuilds shouldnt take this long. Clear the deck & stop fucking around.
Bingo.
Blow out this regime. The name of the game is to get better. We were 3-13 in 2017. The 5-11 last year was deceptive in that the NYG ran into some backup QBs (Fitz, Daniels, Sanchez). And, unless they shock us, this year will result in 4-12 at best. You can make the case the franchise is in worse shape now than it was when this crew showed up.
We are watching different games. Back in 2017 Id say those were competitive losses. Not this year.
which is why gettleman cannot be the one spending the money.
Dallas kicked the living shit out of us, both games.
Minny kicked the living shit out of us, as well as Buffalo.
And we were not competitive against the Patriots, a game in which our opponent doubled our total yardage (427 vs 213) and doubled our time of possession (39:36 vs 20:24).
We are being dominated, destroyed and savaged at the LOS, both sides of the ball. We can't stop anybody and we can't block anybody.
We need 6 - 8 solid new starters not currently on the roster, and we need a brand new coaching staff, preferably hired by new owners who are savvy-minded football people.
If there is not a radical make-over of this franchise from top-to-bottom, we could be looking at a decade of futility added to the last 6-7 years.
And he was looking for total control. Only Mark Davis was willing to agree to those terms.
Just think, the GM Mayock reports to Gruden...
Oline is the biggest issue facing the Giants on Offense....and has been since 2011. Fix it Gettleman...fix it now.
We had plenty of cap space last year to make moves, problem is the loser at GM and HC and ownership kept Eli on the roster.
The list of mistakes this current regime has made is very, very long.
They don't deserve another year. All that would be doing is delaying the real rebuild of this franchise by another year.
The Giants o-line and d-line are at best marginally better than it was when Gettleman got here.
There are huge holes at almost every premium position. He got the QB, that's about the extent of good things Gettleman has done. O-line stinks, d-line on the edge stinks, linebackers are awful, safeties are awful. Corner has huge question marks, same with WR.
Anyone who believes this team is even close to on the right track has no idea what the hell they are looking at.
The Dolphins are trying to lose, and they still have the same record as a Giants team that has a coach who is coaching for his job.
Gettleman sold everyone a fake bill of goods in the off-season.
There is zero reason to give either Gettleman or Shurmur another season. Get a real coach and a real GM in place and start to actually rebuild this thing. The only positive thing Gettleman has done is Jones.
Oline is the biggest issue facing the Giants on Offense....and has been since 2011. Fix it Gettleman...fix it now.
He's had 2 years to fix it and the line is at best marginally better than it was 2 years ago.
That was supposed to be his calling card, ability to identify offensive lineman.
Hernandez has been decent. Zetiler has been a disappointment. Solder and Remmers stink. So does Halapio.
Looks like that was a very smart move to ignite the rebuild.
And they are loaded with draft picks - high draft picks - in the next two drafts.
Still early, but looks like Mayock and Gruden had a plan and are executing it fairly well.
They have done a terrific job, btw, of building one of the best OLs in the NFL, too...
You cannot describe the difference between the Raiders and the Giants right now with just one player/move (i.e. Khalil Mack). The Giants similarly had an elite talent that they traded in Beckham and got back a 1st, a 3rd, and a guy who was a 1st rounder in 2017. I know the haul wasn't as massive as the Raiders got for Mack, but that's case and point right there: the Beckham trade it seems actually turned out well for NYG it appears. But one decent trade doesn't rebuild an entire team. This current roster has been constructed from top to bottom by one David Gettleman. And they suck. The team sucks. They are not 1-2 years of development away from winning, they will never be winners, because the team sucks. They have a few decent players but the team as a whole sucks and it's Dave Gettleman and Pat Shurmur and James Bettcher and John Mara's fault, not Jerry Reese and Ben McAdoo's fault, period.
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Antonio Brown, for example.
Oline is the biggest issue facing the Giants on Offense....and has been since 2011. Fix it Gettleman...fix it now.
He's had 2 years to fix it and the line is at best marginally better than it was 2 years ago.
That was supposed to be his calling card, ability to identify offensive lineman.
Hernandez has been decent. Zetiler has been a disappointment. Solder and Remmers stink. So does Halapio.
I think Zeitler is playing hurt (Shoulder). Yes, he is out there so he needs to perform, but certainly not able to play to his full capabilities.
I thought Nick Gates showed something yesterday. Maybe he can be another DG undrafted find?
Oh give me a fricking break. People on BBI are tripping over themselves to make excuses for DG at every turn. Gettleman has done absolutely nothing in his career to deserve the benefit of the doubt, he's not a certified loser like Shurmur but has nothing on his resume that should have people constantly making excuses for him
Why do you think Patricia and McDaniels didn't take the job? You think having Gettleman as your GM with personnel powers is an attractive prospect?
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was their third choice after McDaniels and Patricia. So you can partially give Gettleman a pass on that, it's not his fault the Giants franchise had become such a clusterf*ck all the good coaches wanted to go elsewhere.
Why do you think Patricia and McDaniels didn't take the job? You think having Gettleman as your GM with personnel powers is an attractive prospect?
Its laughable. The fucking guy is a buffoon and people here want to give him a pass for everything
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Khalil Mack.
Looks like that was a very smart move to ignite the rebuild.
And they are loaded with draft picks - high draft picks - in the next two drafts.
Still early, but looks like Mayock and Gruden had a plan and are executing it fairly well.
They have done a terrific job, btw, of building one of the best OLs in the NFL, too...
You cannot describe the difference between the Raiders and the Giants right now with just one player/move (i.e. Khalil Mack). The Giants similarly had an elite talent that they traded in Beckham and got back a 1st, a 3rd, and a guy who was a 1st rounder in 2017. I know the haul wasn't as massive as the Raiders got for Mack, but that's case and point right there: the Beckham trade it seems actually turned out well for NYG it appears. But one decent trade doesn't rebuild an entire team. This current roster has been constructed from top to bottom by one David Gettleman. And they suck. The team sucks. They are not 1-2 years of development away from winning, they will never be winners, because the team sucks. They have a few decent players but the team as a whole sucks and it's Dave Gettleman and Pat Shurmur and James Bettcher and John Mara's fault, not Jerry Reese and Ben McAdoo's fault, period.
I didn't draw a comparison between the Mack and the OBJ trade. They got a near king's ransom for Mack and that has set them up very well in the short and long term.
Holy shit! Another excuse for DG.
Hey I'm all for waiting after next year-- but holy shit posters like you are so blinded by your homerism.
That's a hell of a rebuild.
Not sure this is the model the NYG should be looking to replicate.
all its starters and When the Dolphins come to Met life and whip the giants who many have penciled in as a win will be the the Death knell on Shurmur
Bye bye Pat !
As a GM? Yes, I'm pretty sure. I don't give a wet shit how many Super Bowls teams that employed him as a scout went to.
Do you have some kind of a personal connection with Gettleman via the Panthers or something? I doubt his own lawyer defends him as ferociously as you do.
Do you have some kind of a personal connection with Gettleman via the Panthers or something? I doubt his own lawyer defends him as ferociously as you do.
That's a strange take - wondering why the GM is being defended. Why do you shit on him for everything, including minimizing that he had the best record of any GM in Carolina's history and went to a SB?
One needs to have a personal connection to refute consistently shitty takes?
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I say the vast majority of that team's talent was on the roster the day he was hired, you disagree.
Do you have some kind of a personal connection with Gettleman via the Panthers or something? I doubt his own lawyer defends him as ferociously as you do.
That's a strange take - wondering why the GM is being defended. Why do you shit on him for everything, including minimizing that he had the best record of any GM in Carolina's history and went to a SB?
One needs to have a personal connection to refute consistently shitty takes?
Fatman, I say this not trying to start or continue our foodfight.
But Greg is right, you do defend DG ferociously. It has gotten to the point where many posters are wondering why, not just Greg. There is plenty to criticize DG about, I think just about everybody would criticize him about how hwe has handled free agency, and has squandered chunks of cap space. He as also missed on a number of draft picks, and his trades have been up and down. There are debatable issues regarding his overall draft grades, draft strategy, team building philosophy, self scouting, use of new technology, data science, and analytics.
If anybody ventures into the debatable areas, you react with venom and call them shitty takes.
I have even seen you defend DG (perhaps a less so recently) regarding FA and cap space. Areas where there can be little doubt he has done poorly.
Your defense of DG is pretty much reflexive to the point where anybody reading would naturally have to question why, is there some unspoken connection there? I have certainly wondered that.
Call it whatever you want. The numbers don't lie: Gettleman is presiding over a team that is 7-19 in his tenure, and getting worse.
Perhaps...
You are an optimist Britt, and you don't defend DG to the same level. You have acknowledged that its been a mixed bag.
The thing is most of the DG critics will agree that its been a mixed bag. It's just which parts of the bag the individual think is more important and deserves to be emphasized.
I don't have the same impression from FMiC. Maybe, I am wrong, maybe he can clarify.
My point to Greg is a common one to posters here - Gettleman gets absolutely no credence from some of these posters. And they often intentionally dismiss his career accomplishments. Greg doesn't give a shit about Gettleman being a scout for several SB teams. OK. He also doesn't give him any credit for going to a SB as a GM?? It doesn't make sense.
I'm providing a counter-point for the people who made their minds up from the method in which Gettleman was hired that he wasn't a good choice or he is incompetent. And when I say he deserves better, there are obtuse posters who say he doesn't and never has. It's complete bullshit.
Go Terps likes to say that Gettleman has committed a number of "fireable offenses", yet if one were to look at moves made by John Lynch, thoose same moves that are fireable offenses for one man are championship-type moves for another. It's illogical. I'm sure he'll post Gettleman's record here as proof though (inconveniently not posted Gettleman's record as Carolina's GM).
Even in the analytics discussion - why was I drawn into it? Because of the flat out lie that Gettleman shuns analytics and didn't use them in Carolina. Again - that is directed more at NGD, but it is yet another instance of people taking quotes out of context and not even doing precursory research to see that a point is full of shit.
Instead of wondering why a poster on a Giants fan board challenges those statements, you should be wondering why exaggeration and hyperbole is used to bash the GM. There are legitimate points when Gettleman hasn't done well (and I have no idea where I've defended his FA moves), but to come on weekly after a loss and have several "Fire Gettleman" threads or have posters who l;iterally say he hasn't done a single thing well it is madness. Hell, even today there was a post saying that Gettleman's drafts have even sucked.
Frustration shouldn't be an excuse for people to sound idiotic and illogical.
2. Keeping Eli (twice) AND drafting a quarterback in 2019 #6 overall
3. Signing Beckham and trading him a year later
That isn't hindsight, because I called all three of them before they happened. I'm just an asshole on a message board and I have had more foresight on the critical decisions than the people running the Giants. How is that not fireable?
I don't. I think it's going to result in another Shurmur.
I don't. I think it's going to result in another Shurmur.
This is why Gettleman will fight like hell with one more year WITH Shurmur. No coach is walking into this situation with Gettleman as a lame duck.
2. Keeping Eli (twice) AND drafting a quarterback in 2019 #6 overall
3. Signing Beckham and trading him a year later
That isn't hindsight, because I called all three of them before they happened. I'm just an asshole on a message board and I have had more foresight on the critical decisions than the people running the Giants. How is that not fireable?
My opinio granted.. But I would add these:
1) Horrendous self scouting. The belief that the Giants had enough to contend for something particularly last year, and to a lesser extent this year.
2) The absence of OL draft picks (a #2 and a #7 are not enough) when you come in knowing you need 5 new OL players. And building the OL was part of the mandate.
3) Its again my opinion of course, and has been hotly debated, but I would add picking Barkley at a time when the team had so many holes as to make any possible greatness on his part meaningless to overall success, even if you believe in RBs having position value. Of course, items 1 and 2 are major factors in diminishing any value SB might have had.
Do you guys agree?
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as much as it is a yin to other posters yang.
Perhaps...
You are an optimist Britt, and you don't defend DG to the same level. You have acknowledged that its been a mixed bag.
The thing is most of the DG critics will agree that its been a mixed bag. It's just which parts of the bag the individual think is more important and deserves to be emphasized.
I don't have the same impression from FMiC. Maybe, I am wrong, maybe he can clarify.
Fatman doesn't need me to back him up at all...
But his response above is consistent with the way I've viewed his posts the whole time. He's not defending as much as he's calling out inaccuracies in regards to things people are using as "facts" to bash Gettleman. Things that are in most cases subjective and in others flat out wrong.
Do you guys agree?
I don't. There are problems that should have been identified early and haven't been improved upon. I'll name one huge one:
Where are the analytics experts to help Shurmur in real time with game management decisions? Why hasn't Gettleman prioritized this?
2. Keeping Eli (twice) AND drafting a quarterback in 2019 #6 overall
3. Signing Beckham and trading him a year later
That isn't hindsight, because I called all three of them before they happened. I'm just an asshole on a message board and I have had more foresight on the critical decisions than the people running the Giants. How is that not fireable?
The fact that some are defending it shouldn't be surprising it. The "not so bad" crowd. However, going by their track record these past several years with predictions and whatnot, I guess it shouldn't be surprising.
My point to Greg is a common one to posters here - Gettleman gets absolutely no credence from some of these posters. And they often intentionally dismiss his career accomplishments. Greg doesn't give a shit about Gettleman being a scout for several SB teams. OK. He also doesn't give him any credit for going to a SB as a GM?? It doesn't make sense.
I'm providing a counter-point for the people who made their minds up from the method in which Gettleman was hired that he wasn't a good choice or he is incompetent. And when I say he deserves better, there are obtuse posters who say he doesn't and never has. It's complete bullshit.
Go Terps likes to say that Gettleman has committed a number of "fireable offenses", yet if one were to look at moves made by John Lynch, thoose same moves that are fireable offenses for one man are championship-type moves for another. It's illogical. I'm sure he'll post Gettleman's record here as proof though (inconveniently not posted Gettleman's record as Carolina's GM).
Even in the analytics discussion - why was I drawn into it? Because of the flat out lie that Gettleman shuns analytics and didn't use them in Carolina. Again - that is directed more at NGD, but it is yet another instance of people taking quotes out of context and not even doing precursory research to see that a point is full of shit.
Instead of wondering why a poster on a Giants fan board challenges those statements, you should be wondering why exaggeration and hyperbole is used to bash the GM. There are legitimate points when Gettleman hasn't done well (and I have no idea where I've defended his FA moves), but to come on weekly after a loss and have several "Fire Gettleman" threads or have posters who l;iterally say he hasn't done a single thing well it is madness. Hell, even today there was a post saying that Gettleman's drafts have even sucked.
Frustration shouldn't be an excuse for people to sound idiotic and illogical.
I won't deny there are plenty of dumb takes on here. Somebody today suggested that Reese purposely sabotaged 2015 (eye roll). And another that claimed that Mara is a eunuch.
At this point, to take a step back and assess what DG has done in 2 years and come away wanting is not an unreasonable take. You may disagree, but it isn't unreasonable.
As much of a critic of DG as I have been, I don't know if you recall, but I was still advocating patience at the start of this season and that DG needed more time. As the season has gone on, and we have gotten more information, I have moved to the no more patience side of the equation. I think Terps is right, it will be near impossible to attract a good HC with DG in place.
Furthermore, we can now evaluate more of his moves.
The 2018 draft while not sucking, has only been average in its returns considering the team picked at the top of each round.
I give DG credit for the Jones pick, Lawrence looks good and Slayton seems to be the first real bargain pick.
Overall, we haven't gotten enough of a return from these drafts yet. And the lack of OL considering the need is fireable on its own. Maybe getting a QB overshadows anything else in some people's minds, IDK.
Perhaps you are not saying this, but your post suggests that you think his drafts are above criticism, when there is reasonable criticism that can be leveled.
Self scouting and FA have been poor to say the least.
The team is getting worse not better.
Ok there is a ton of frustration, and a ton of it is directed at DG. Maybe some folks are not clear eyed about exactly what they are criticizing.
That said, there is no doubt that the team is not moving in the right direction and DG has to shoulder a large part of that blame. I don't see that you are willing to even acknowledge that much.
Jesus H Christ it never ends. What would we do without such a neutral voice telling us who the real Dave Gettleman is.
Greg rightly points out that Gettleman was essentially a passenger when the Panthers got to the SB. That roster was built already. In essence, he was the Barry Switzer of GMs. He was keeping the lights on and making sure the trains ran on time. So what did Carolina do AFTER the SB while Gettleman was in charge? Answer - absolutely nothing noteworthy. Go look at his drafts and report back to me how high his hit rate was...
We were told by the Gettlemanites like Factman that Gettleman has this great skill of focusing and building great interior lines. Okay, so where are they? It's been two year of personnel changes with Gettleman's finger prints. But our OL still stinks and apparently we have the Fearsome Foursome DL waiting in the wings. Just give them more time to develop with the great coaching staff DG hired.
And Factman is still actually gullible enough to believe that Gettleman was hired because he was the best GM for the job. He totally eschews the fact that Accorsi was brought in to do the job search as just coincidence that Accorsi was a lifetime member of Jints Central, and that we should overlook that as inconsequential.
But as soon as Accorsi was announced, most of us quickly predicted that Gettleman would be the choice, not because of merit, but because of the ties that bind - a loyalist to the "Giants Way".
And here we are 2 years into the Gettleman Era and we are what are record says we are - a poorly coached and a poorly managed team. ALL under Gettleman's watch. But hey, let's give him more time because the "Reese left such a massive mess" excuse seems to have no statute of limitations.
I'm sure the Factman acolytes will now show up to parrot their leader...
So we're just lining this up for Shurmur to take Reese's place as the Boogeyman that's at the cause of all the problems?
We're doing this again?
Ok there is a ton of frustration, and a ton of it is directed at DG. Maybe some folks are not clear eyed about exactly what they are criticizing.
That said, there is no doubt that the team is not moving in the right direction and DG has to shoulder a large part of that blame. I don't see that you are willing to even acknowledge that much.
I have acknowledged that some moves made have failed. I've questioned the direction. But we can look directly at examples of other teams that posters use as possible models to emulate that looked similarly bleak as the Giants. We can't be told that having significant assets tied up in the RB position makes it impossible to compete when a team that just suffered their first loss has more $$$ tied to the position than any other team.
This thread is proof of the one-sidedness. People were convinced last season that Gruden was done. That the Raiders were wayward. And a year later, we look at them as a rebuild that can happen. That should give people pause when stating assertively that our team is getting worse and that there "is no doubt" the team is moving in the wrong direction.
My counterpoint is that you cannot have posters acknowledge that we are coming off a several year stretch of historically bad drafts and expect a quick turnaround. And that is what people expected.
And that's putting aside narratives that aren't fact based or used erroneously. The latest one that keeps being said is that no good coach will work with Gettleman. Just another knife in his back that is stated as fact - and likely isn't true at all.
If the team was moving in the right direction talentwise, with the same coaching staff in place, then the record should not be moving backwards.
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The right direction talent wise while simultaneously going in the wrong direction with coaching and player development.
If the team was moving in the right direction talentwise, with the same coaching staff in place, then the record should not be moving backwards.
Perhaps, but it isn't that simple to me. Young talent typically goes through ups and downs before you find out what you have. Highs and Lows
We certainly should ponder how much of a negative impact this CS is having on the young players. I feel that is a relevant point.
They told you it was going to happen definitively, or they explained why it could happen?
Stupid prediction threads aside to avoid the poster that likes to tell me all the time I predicted 10-6 and therefore every thing I've said since is not credible (disclaimer, I did in fact post 10-6 in that thread. With no other context. Just "10-6", and that resonated with certain posters....)
The age of NFL Parity is designed to level the playing field so that teams can go from worst to first with a good draft, some shrewd FA signings, and some luck (couple of lucky bounces here and there).
It's not insane to assume the positive can happen. Just because it didn't doesn't mean people are nuts. Did anybody point to San Fran this year as doing what they are doing PRIOR to this season? I don't remember it. I see a lot about it now, but I don't recall many predicting it then. They were 4-12 last year. 6-10 the year before, and 2-14 the year before that. You can do that with different teams every year. Why not the Giants?
I like to listen to people that have well reasoned opinions one way or the other.
For all the sh-t I took over the Eli stuff for the past couple of years, it was never really about defending him as much as it was I understood the reasoning why they did it. And it was defensible. It's not a fact it was the wrong move to keep him or not keep him was a mistake. It's still not a fact, even in hindsight, unless you know exactly how the alternative would have played out. It's an opinion.
I'll agree with FMIC on one thing - there's a one sidedness here that dictates the argument.
7-19. Two seasons over before Halloween.
Fatman, you were one of the people who said there were no more lengthy rebuilds. I think many of us here were hunkered down for a 2-3 year stretch of building once DG was hired. Gettleman seemed to put that off by a year by misjudging the team.
Giants Got Solder - ( New Window )
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The team is getting worse not better.
Ok there is a ton of frustration, and a ton of it is directed at DG. Maybe some folks are not clear eyed about exactly what they are criticizing.
That said, there is no doubt that the team is not moving in the right direction and DG has to shoulder a large part of that blame. I don't see that you are willing to even acknowledge that much.
I have acknowledged that some moves made have failed. I've questioned the direction. But we can look directly at examples of other teams that posters use as possible models to emulate that looked similarly bleak as the Giants. We can't be told that having significant assets tied up in the RB position makes it impossible to compete when a team that just suffered their first loss has more $$$ tied to the position than any other team.
This thread is proof of the one-sidedness. People were convinced last season that Gruden was done. That the Raiders were wayward. And a year later, we look at them as a rebuild that can happen. That should give people pause when stating assertively that our team is getting worse and that there "is no doubt" the team is moving in the wrong direction.
My counterpoint is that you cannot have posters acknowledge that we are coming off a several year stretch of historically bad drafts and expect a quick turnaround. And that is what people expected.
And that's putting aside narratives that aren't fact based or used erroneously. The latest one that keeps being said is that no good coach will work with Gettleman. Just another knife in his back that is stated as fact - and likely isn't true at all.
I think you conflating some things. Yes there have been a bunch of posters who have had higher expectations than have been warranted. In fact, the vast majority of those posters were optimists. Perhaps now many of them a really pissed, and feel betrayed and have made some acerbic posts. But don't mix that crowd with the long term critics.
I think there are plenty of people who never expected a quick turnaround. I don't think Terps, bw, GD, Googs, myself or any number of other critical posters expected a quick turn around. In fact, most of us, myself included, were telling folks to tamp down expectations, this team isn't there yet.
I know I went into this season looking for improvement in individual areas. Seeing some of the young players become something. The problem is that there is no improvement anywhere with 1 exception. The only good thing to come out of this year has been the development and play of DJ (and the jury is still out on him). Every other position group is playing worse. You can argue that its coaching (which is bad), but the same coaches were here last year.
Apples and oranges. The argument with Coughlin never made sense; Coughlin was a good coach with a track record. Also, players will generally follow the money.
We're talking about a head coach hire here though. We want a program builder - can someone come in and implement his program if his job is contingent on Gettleman having major say in his program?
Also, why are we separating Gettleman from Shurmur? Where are Gettleman's successes if it's just Shurmur's failures holding us back?
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There's plenty of idiocy on both sides, but we had plenty of people telling us this was a playoff team this year. We also had plenty of people telling us the idea of a multiyear rebuild was silly.
They told you it was going to happen definitively, or they explained why it could happen?
Stupid prediction threads aside to avoid the poster that likes to tell me all the time I predicted 10-6 and therefore every thing I've said since is not credible (disclaimer, I did in fact post 10-6 in that thread. With no other context. Just "10-6", and that resonated with certain posters....)
The age of NFL Parity is designed to level the playing field so that teams can go from worst to first with a good draft, some shrewd FA signings, and some luck (couple of lucky bounces here and there).
It's not insane to assume the positive can happen. Just because it didn't doesn't mean people are nuts. Did anybody point to San Fran this year as doing what they are doing PRIOR to this season? I don't remember it. I see a lot about it now, but I don't recall many predicting it then. They were 4-12 last year. 6-10 the year before, and 2-14 the year before that. You can do that with different teams every year. Why not the Giants?
I like to listen to people that have well reasoned opinions one way or the other.
For all the sh-t I took over the Eli stuff for the past couple of years, it was never really about defending him as much as it was I understood the reasoning why they did it. And it was defensible. It's not a fact it was the wrong move to keep him or not keep him was a mistake. It's still not a fact, even in hindsight, unless you know exactly how the alternative would have played out. It's an opinion.
That's a useless semantic argument - people predicted playoffs and they were dumb for doing so.
I don't follow SF closely enough to have a good view.
I also think parity in the NFL is overstated.
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My counterpoint is that you cannot have posters acknowledge that we are coming off a several year stretch of historically bad drafts and expect a quick turnaround. And that is what people expected.
Fatman, you were one of the people who said there were no more lengthy rebuilds. I think many of us here were hunkered down for a 2-3 year stretch of building once DG was hired. Gettleman seemed to put that off by a year by misjudging the team.
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I've been saying this for awhile now, but there are no more lengthy rebuilds in the NFL anymore. With the cap - you only have windows to work in - and in those windows, you try to shore up areas of weakness, add depth when possible and hope injuries don't wipe out all of that work.
Giants Got Solder - ( New Window )
Nice catch Brett...
As I said, he is somehow conflating the expectation of a quick turn around that one side of this debate had, and blaming the other side for it.
I think the critics have been pretty darn consistent in their evaluation of this team's suckitude.
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A time when good fa's wouldn't want to sign here because of Coughlin. The point is that we don't know. If you want to speculate that, fine, but to say it as if it's foolish to doubt such an opinion isn't reasonable imo
Apples and oranges. The argument with Coughlin never made sense; Coughlin was a good coach with a track record. Also, players will generally follow the money.
We're talking about a head coach hire here though. We want a program builder - can someone come in and implement his program if his job is contingent on Gettleman having major say in his program?
Also, why are we separating Gettleman from Shurmur? Where are Gettleman's successes if it's just Shurmur's failures holding us back?
I didn't say it was JUST Shurmur. My point is, player evaluation can be thrown off by bad coaching staffs. I don't think bad coaching staffs typically put their players in positions to succeed, I don't think bad coaching staffs do an adequate job with player development.
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In comment 14677578 BrettNYG10 said:
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There's plenty of idiocy on both sides, but we had plenty of people telling us this was a playoff team this year. We also had plenty of people telling us the idea of a multiyear rebuild was silly.
They told you it was going to happen definitively, or they explained why it could happen?
Stupid prediction threads aside to avoid the poster that likes to tell me all the time I predicted 10-6 and therefore every thing I've said since is not credible (disclaimer, I did in fact post 10-6 in that thread. With no other context. Just "10-6", and that resonated with certain posters....)
The age of NFL Parity is designed to level the playing field so that teams can go from worst to first with a good draft, some shrewd FA signings, and some luck (couple of lucky bounces here and there).
It's not insane to assume the positive can happen. Just because it didn't doesn't mean people are nuts. Did anybody point to San Fran this year as doing what they are doing PRIOR to this season? I don't remember it. I see a lot about it now, but I don't recall many predicting it then. They were 4-12 last year. 6-10 the year before, and 2-14 the year before that. You can do that with different teams every year. Why not the Giants?
I like to listen to people that have well reasoned opinions one way or the other.
For all the sh-t I took over the Eli stuff for the past couple of years, it was never really about defending him as much as it was I understood the reasoning why they did it. And it was defensible. It's not a fact it was the wrong move to keep him or not keep him was a mistake. It's still not a fact, even in hindsight, unless you know exactly how the alternative would have played out. It's an opinion.
That's a useless semantic argument - people predicted playoffs and they were dumb for doing so.
I don't follow SF closely enough to have a good view.
I also think parity in the NFL is overstated.
There is 1 team that has debunked parity...
2 or 3 more teams that have been consistent winners of the past 20 years.
And a handful of bottom feeders that have provided the counterpoint.
For the the rest of the 24 or so teams in the middle, parity is a real thing.
If you ask me, that's what the giants tried to do last season. They were screwed by historically poor drafts and massive overpays for players in 2016. They tried to give it a go because that's really the only viable option. And there's a significant difference in the perception of that. You have posters killing Gettleman for giving it a go as if the impact was lasting and devastating. It wasn't. The dead money was going to be the dead money. You had to eat those contracts at some point. So you are still working with a pie that have a bunch of slices missing and bites out of the remaining pieces.
Historically, teams with dead money do poorly - and the Giants weren't an exception. When Gettleman took over in Carolina, he inherited the worst cap situation in the NFL and he turned that situation around in 18 months, but he still had a core group of players who were relatively cheap to build around. He didn't have that here in NY.
He's done the majority of the tear down and next year is when he has complete ownership on the state of the team. When I said there were no lengthy rebuilds, it was often in response to people saying we were fucked for the next 10 years.
What Gettleman has tried to do is completely revamp a team in 2 years. He's done it - and the question that looms is - will it provide results? THat's where we are at - and this is the same view that JonC, Eric and others have pointed out time and again.
I bashed McAdoo in 2017 because my expectations were much, much higher. I thought they were woefully under-performing the team's potential. Yet DG seems to be defended by those who thought we'd do well.
I think a lot of posters are claiming more time for the GM to take on a task that required multiple seasons to accomplish.
Many of us were prepared for a tear down. My biggest criticism of DG is that I don't think his actions in 2018 seemed to move in that direction.
The actions in 2019 do. I'm fine with the strategy this year - whether it pays off, I'm not sure. DG has lost a lot of my confidence due to poor self-scouting and failures along the OL.
I'm not as harsh or strongly against DG as Go Terps is, for example. But my leash is short.
I bashed McAdoo in 2017 because my expectations were much, much higher. I thought they were woefully under-performing the team's potential. Yet DG seems to be defended by those who thought we'd do well.
Because they seen a plan. Look at mort's post from yesterday.
The results haven't been there, but maybe they will be next year.
Again, look at San Fran: 2-14, 6-10, 4-12.... This year, 8-1. It happens.
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They tried to give it a go because that's really the only viable option.
Many of us were prepared for a tear down. My biggest criticism of DG is that I don't think his actions in 2018 seemed to move in that direction.
The actions in 2019 do. I'm fine with the strategy this year - whether it pays off, I'm not sure. DG has lost a lot of my confidence due to poor self-scouting and failures along the OL.
I'm not as harsh or strongly against DG as Go Terps is, for example. But my leash is short.
He gave it a go, and then pivoted midseason and did the tear down. I actually respect that.
Some people preferred that he start that way. I say, what was lost? About 8 games as I see it. But at least we knew. Gettleman, through his actions, has shown the ability to admit mistakes and cut losses. I like that. He might not have done it on your schedule, but he did do it, and has been proactive since.
If they go 5-11, I imagine we'll hear more bullshit about how it's part of the rebuild.
Bottom line - he's done a lousy job to date.
Yep. When the scenario they predicted didn't come to pass (at ALL), they simply shifted gears and claimed that this was all part of a master plan.
Our situation is entirely different. Gettleman/Shurmur do not have that kind of leash & Shurmur doesnt have say in personnel decisions.
If they go 5-11, I imagine we'll hear more bullshit about how it's part of the rebuild.
Even more reason to cheer the team on. :)
I'm not as harsh or strongly against DG as Go Terps is, for example. But my leash is short.
Especially when looking at the body of work of the HC. The failures on the OL are legitimate issues too. I don't disagree with that.
Just like I tried to explain to McL's question to me above - I'm not some guy waving pom-poms for Gettleman. I'm just not swinging a pitchfork at him for each and every move. That's a key difference. I also don't dismiss why people act as if his entire career has been terrible when it hasn't, and in order to crap on him here, they crap on him for Carolina - which is pretty inexplicable to me, especially when he is looked very fondly by the fans here.
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Fatman, I don't agree with this at all:
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They tried to give it a go because that's really the only viable option.
Many of us were prepared for a tear down. My biggest criticism of DG is that I don't think his actions in 2018 seemed to move in that direction.
The actions in 2019 do. I'm fine with the strategy this year - whether it pays off, I'm not sure. DG has lost a lot of my confidence due to poor self-scouting and failures along the OL.
I'm not as harsh or strongly against DG as Go Terps is, for example. But my leash is short.
He gave it a go, and then pivoted midseason and did the tear down. I actually respect that.
Some people preferred that he start that way. I say, what was lost? About 8 games as I see it. But at least we knew. Gettleman, through his actions, has shown the ability to admit mistakes and cut losses. I like that. He might not have done it on your schedule, but he did do it, and has been proactive since.
I don't respect it at all - it was a massive failure in self-scouting.
We also signed Solder, kept Eli on, and wasted picks on Ogletree (and that's off the top of my head). We wasted cap space on resources meant to win today that we could have rolled forward.
I was fine with the DG hire. I was not thrilled, but fine. I give him credit for CAR's success - just like I give Reese for his success here. I was alarmed when he made moves I thought were made with the intent of winning now. I was also alarmed that much of the scouting infrastructure remained in place.
I did not like picking a RB at #2. I do very much like that he ignored the calls for a QB in 2018 and picked an unpopular one in 2019 - and is seemingly right in that approach so far. I wanted a QB in 2018, but I don't watch college football so I don't know who was actually good. The stars seemed to align. I admire him ignoring that and then going after his guy the following year.
I think his FA's have been atrocious. I'm far more cautious on his drafts than others. They still need time.
So I agree, a mixed bag. I'm fine with another year from him.
I was 100% wrong on Shurmur, though. I wanted him hired and he is brutal.
I fully admit to being disgusted by Gettleman being hired in the first place so yeah, my views are undoubtedly colored by that. Still, given what we've seen so far, he's given me few reasons to reconsider that judgment. Jones has been better than expected, Connelly looked decent in the brief time he played, Lawrence could be very good, Hernandez has shown some promise (although he hasn't progressed at all from last year to this year), Slayton's been a pleasant surprise. That's pretty much it as far as positives go, and there is a mountain of negatives outweighing them.
Hernandez - in particular - is often sold as a sure thing along the lines when I think he's struggled wildly at times. He's not 05 Chris Snee yet.
We don't have Mayock running our draft and we don't have a good coach.
And our owner is absolutely clueless.
I don't think thats necessarily true. Our record is worse, but its a completely different team with a rookie QB who is turning over the ball at an alarming rate. Some of these things are TBD, but its really splitting hairs I guess. We're bottom of the league bad.
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The actions in 2019 do. I'm fine with the strategy this year - whether it pays off, I'm not sure. DG has lost a lot of my confidence due to poor self-scouting and failures along the OL.
I'm not as harsh or strongly against DG as Go Terps is, for example. But my leash is short.
Especially when looking at the body of work of the HC. The failures on the OL are legitimate issues too. I don't disagree with that.
Just like I tried to explain to McL's question to me above - I'm not some guy waving pom-poms for Gettleman. I'm just not swinging a pitchfork at him for each and every move. That's a key difference. I also don't dismiss why people act as if his entire career has been terrible when it hasn't, and in order to crap on him here, they crap on him for Carolina - which is pretty inexplicable to me, especially when he is looked very fondly by the fans here.
I can only speak for myself, I never crapped on him for Carolina. I couldn't care less about Carolina. I judge him 100% on what he has done here with the Giants.
I do think there is a pivot going on here by those who used to say that the critics never gave him a chance, to that the critics aren't giving him enough of a chance.
I find it amazing how much credit he gets for cutting Omameh after signing him, and trading OBJ after signing him. Ok both the cutting and the trading were good moves. He gets a modicum of credit for them, but shouldn't the original mistake weight much more heavily? Ogletree, Stewart, Bethea, and Tate, are just more frustrating examples of FA/cap mistakes. Mistakes that idiots on fan boards had the foresight to see. Tate is a decent player, especially as a 2nd or 3rd option on a team with SB aspirations. He does nothing for the Giants.
To say that this team is not owned by Gettleman is just mouth breathing revisionist history.
The majority of the dead cap space this year was of his own making. Did you guys know that releasing Tanney, and the resigning him created 1.1M of dead cap? Releasing Pierre created another 1M. You can blame Vernon 8M, Harrison 3M and Apple 2M on Reese. The other ~24M is all Gettleman.
There are only 9 players left from before he got here.
Only 4 of these see significant snaps. Jenkins, Tomlinson, Engram and Shepard.
Gettleman participated in hiring Shurmur.
The product on the field is almost entirely the creation of Gettleman and this CS. How he is not to be held accountable until they suffer through yet another disastrous season is beyond my comprehension.
This thread is proof of the one-sidedness. People were convinced last season that Gruden was done. That the Raiders were wayward. And a year later, we look at them as a rebuild that can happen. That should give people pause when stating assertively that our team is getting worse and that there "is no doubt" the team is moving in the wrong direction.
How is the fact that the Raiders are moving in the right direction supposed to give us pause about the direction of the Giants?
The Raiders were arguably worse off talentwise than the Giants were last year.
And yet, they have made a number of moves that have made noticeable improvements in that team. Whether people thought Gruden was done or not, He and Mayock have given a reason to have confidence in what they are doing. Why should anybody have confidence in what the Giants are doing given what is happening on the field?
We would be wise to copy that move in way be shipping Barkley and Engram. Believe in the "RBs grow on trees" theory and it shouldn't be too challenging to find a solution for TE. We won't get the Mack package, but we could get something that gives us a chance to address a lot needs with young blood...
Of course, that assumes we have competent coaching to develop. So I realize I am making a leap... :)
We would be wise to copy that move in way be shipping Barkley and Engram. Believe in the "RBs grow on trees" theory and it shouldn't be too challenging to find a solution for TE. We won't get the Mack package, but we could get something that gives us a chance to address a lot needs with young blood...
Of course, that assumes we have competent coaching to develop. So I realize I am making a leap... :)
LOL, a huge leap...
But yeah, I would trade Barkley in a heartbeat for a decent package. Problem is I doubt we can get as much now as we could have gotten on draft day. I don't mind trading Engram either, he just can't stay healthy and this team doesn't know how to use him.
Look - a lot of it comes down to frustration. I said last year when people were bitching about the Barkley pick that if we had Darnold, we'd still suck. The response from many was that at least the arrow would be pointing up so watching the struggle would be OK. I said that was bullshit - and people would be bitching no matter what, simply because we are losing
Well here we are a year later and Eli was benched and Jones is starting and the team is struggling. Do people think the arrow is pointing up and they are fine with the losses??
The idea anyone here has the patience to let this play out is complete foolishness. Nobody this time last year thought the Raiders were going to turn things around. Now that they are mediocre, we have people acting like this was easily seen. I wonder if their fans want Mayock's head on a stick for trading for Antonio Brown? No. Why? Because they have won a few games and are competitive. And in the end of the season, it is still likely they will miss the playoffs. Yet - their rebuild is something at least a couple members of this board are keen on.
Look - a lot of it comes down to frustration. I said last year when people were bitching about the Barkley pick that if we had Darnold, we'd still suck. The response from many was that at least the arrow would be pointing up so watching the struggle would be OK. I said that was bullshit - and people would be bitching no matter what, simply because we are losing
Well here we are a year later and Eli was benched and Jones is starting and the team is struggling. Do people think the arrow is pointing up and they are fine with the losses??
The idea anyone here has the patience to let this play out is complete foolishness. Nobody this time last year thought the Raiders were going to turn things around. Now that they are mediocre, we have people acting like this was easily seen. I wonder if their fans want Mayock's head on a stick for trading for Antonio Brown? No. Why? Because they have won a few games and are competitive. And in the end of the season, it is still likely they will miss the playoffs. Yet - their rebuild is something at least a couple members of this board are keen on.
No progress is being made here. Im surprised you are beating this drum. We just lost to the fucking Jets and Saquon gained 1 yard. After we go 3-13 you want to stay the course? Seriously?
So taking a RB at #24 is a bit more tolerable than one at #2.
Did people think the Raiders were making progress last season? Did people think the Niners were? They lost to us!!
You know who people lauded as making progress? The Browns. And the Bears.
It is the outcome of people needing immediate information and understanding. Power rankings, grades. Discussion of teams tanking. Think about it - if truly horrible teams are tanking for the draft, is the supposition that one player will make them contenders, or could they not be as horrible as portrayed?
What I know is that we lead the league in snaps by rookies by a pretty large margin. Mistakes will be made. The vast unknown is will it lead to improvement? Some of you are sure on the answer. Ask yourself if you were just as sure last season with other teams.
You know who people lauded as making progress? The Browns. And the Bears.
People's beliefs for all of those scenarios were completely flipped, which serves as a bit of a cautionary tale here, shouldn't it?
As bw said, #24 with other picks around it, is much more tolerable than #2, still not a fan, but its not egregious.
Look - a lot of it comes down to frustration. I said last year when people were bitching about the Barkley pick that if we had Darnold, we'd still suck. The response from many was that at least the arrow would be pointing up so watching the struggle would be OK. I said that was bullshit - and people would be bitching no matter what, simply because we are losing
Whenever we have this debate, you are always taking it back to Darnold. There were a bunch of folks including myself who were not enamored of the 2018 QBs who never wanted Darnold. The Giants never wanted him or any of the other 2018 QBs, so going back to this is just a red herring. IMO the right move (by far again IMO) was to trade down. Some would have drafted Nelson, some Chubb. Debating what the team would be with Darnold is pointless.
And you can't just take Barkley away without sufficient replacement. Which is th other thing that you do when we have this discussion. You will say, "Are you suggesting the team would be better without Barkley". NO, that is another red herring. But they would be better had they used that draft capital to fix other problems on the team.
Well here we are a year later and Eli was benched and Jones is starting and the team is struggling. Do people think the arrow is pointing up and they are fine with the losses??
Since it was never about Darnold as far as I am concerned, this is yet another red herring. I have given various scenarios where the Giants could have come away with at least 2 more strong OL players. Obviating the need to sign Solder, and having by now 4 or possibly 5 solid young players on the OL. If the team had that, I think everybody would be feeling much better about the "arrow", and even if the team was losing because the defense still sucked, at least we would be seeing solid play from the offense. That would give a lot more confidence in the direction of the team.
The idea anyone here has the patience to let this play out is complete foolishness. Nobody this time last year thought the Raiders were going to turn things around. Now that they are mediocre, we have people acting like this was easily seen. I wonder if their fans want Mayock's head on a stick for trading for Antonio Brown? No. Why? Because they have won a few games and are competitive. And in the end of the season, it is still likely they will miss the playoffs. Yet - their rebuild is something at least a couple members of this board are keen on.
I think you severely underestimate the patience that many people have for this rebuild. The problem is, even with patience, there should be signs of improvement. Those signs are not there. The list of needs never grows shorter. If there were signs of progress, I know I would have much more patience. When DG got here I was saying that 2020 would be the first possible year of being competitive. And 2021 would be the first year the team could be in contention for the SB. Those timelines seem wildly optimistic now. 2 years, and we seem no closer to being a SB contender now than we did when DG took over. That is going to cause impatience.
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Did people think the Raiders were making progress last season? Did people think the Niners were? They lost to us!!
You know who people lauded as making progress? The Browns. And the Bears.
People's beliefs for all of those scenarios were completely flipped, which serves as a bit of a cautionary tale here, shouldn't it?
Here's the cautionary tale: Jerry Reese in 2016. In an attempt to save his job Gettleman is about to engage in a Reese-like FA spending spree. It's already begun with the idiotic Williams trade.
What's past is prologue.
Thats fine, but you have also said Shurmur should be fired. That is counter to what you are saying here. Shouldnt Shurmur then be given more time to see this through based on your logic?
Did people think the Raiders were making progress last season? Did people think the Niners were? They lost to us!!
The niners were in that game and nearly won with a 4th string UDFA QB in his first year on the 53 man roster.
I don't have patience for what the Giants did - try to compete and then decide to haphazardly rebuild once it was clear there was no other option. Even then, they kept Eli on - which was another mistake.
I do feel much better about this season than last season. Having a guy who looks like he can be a really good QB is thrilling.
But I don't have faith in the process/plan or ability of Gettleman & Co.
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before it's finished being written, as fans.
Thats fine, but you have also said Shurmur should be fired. That is counter to what you are saying here. Shouldnt Shurmur then be given more time to see this through based on your logic?
I have personally soured on the guy but if they bring him back I understand why they would and am not going to go ballistic on this message board about it.
By far the loudest and most aggressive contingent were those who said that passing on a QB would set the franchise back years. We were regaled about it being the perfect time to move away from Eli and by not doing that - it was a "fireable offense" to use a tired phrase. Yes - there were people who wanted a trade down, but that wasn't the prevalent opinion.
You had posters months later talking about the historic QB class of 2018, with a couple of threads started asking if more HoF'ers would come from those QB's vs. 2004. After the Jets beat the Lions week 1, the Darnold posts were all over.
What is a red herring to you certainly wasn't for the majority of the board. Surely you realize that.
I don't have patience for what the Giants did - try to compete and then decide to haphazardly rebuild once it was clear there was no other option. Even then, they kept Eli on - which was another mistake.
I do feel much better about this season than last season. Having a guy who looks like he can be a really good QB is thrilling.
But I don't have faith in the process/plan or ability of Gettleman & Co.
And that is the problem, people have lost faith in DG & co. Outside of the Jones pick, he has inspired zero confidence that he has any idea how to build the rest of the team.
We are being asked to have patience in the face of nothing that warrants patience. Is there a single position group that has shown improved play in the last 2 years?
By far the loudest and most aggressive contingent were those who said that passing on a QB would set the franchise back years. We were regaled about it being the perfect time to move away from Eli and by not doing that - it was a "fireable offense" to use a tired phrase. Yes - there were people who wanted a trade down, but that wasn't the prevalent opinion.
You had posters months later talking about the historic QB class of 2018, with a couple of threads started asking if more HoF'ers would come from those QB's vs. 2004. After the Jets beat the Lions week 1, the Darnold posts were all over.
What is a red herring to you certainly wasn't for the majority of the board. Surely you realize that.
I will grant that there were loud contingents of groups of posters calling for drafting Darnold and Rosen, and to a lesser extent Allen.
That being said, it is a mistake by you to lump everybody you debate with into those categories. And at the end of the day, drafting one of those QBs was never going to happen, and as it turns out (with the exception of LJ who was on almost nobody's radar) probably rightfully so.
I am surprised to find that you were in favor of a trade down (so was Eric BTW). I don't recall your comments in general at the time, but you did take an opposing position with me at the time. I recall that.
Whether people predicted it or not is irrelevant. The Raiders are winning and we are losing. Again.
It seems they have capitalized at a much better rate than Jints Central in all markets - trades, free agency, and draft. And in a football infrastructure where the coach, Gruden, has ultimate say over all football operations.
Whether people predicted it or not is irrelevant. The Raiders are winning and we are losing. Again.
It seems they have capitalized at a much better rate than Jints Central in all markets - trades, free agency, and draft. And in a football infrastructure where the coach, Gruden, has ultimate say over all football operations.
My point was rebuilding doesnt need to take long. We have posters saying the Giants wont be good for another 4 years!!! Thats bullshit. Come up with a vision & see it through. I dont see that with this regime.
What FMiC is missing - we arent even competitive. 2-8, 3-7 & 2-8 the last 3 years. The Raiders tore it down last year and are 5-4. We cant even compete. We cant even make it go Columbus Day.
The Dolphins are 2-7 and have gutted their roster - they are competing more than the Giants are.
Come on. How can anyone think otherwise?
bw in dc : 8:57 pm : link : reply
but I think the purpose of the OP's post was to explore why the Raiders have made this quick turnaround (to date - they could still slip).
So because they went from terrible to mediocre in one season, that's quick? Or is it that they are mediocre after having 6 of their last 7 seasons under .500, including three 4 win seasons and a 3 win season?
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I can't speak for everyone...
bw in dc : 8:57 pm : link : reply
but I think the purpose of the OP's post was to explore why the Raiders have made this quick turnaround (to date - they could still slip).
So because they went from terrible to mediocre in one season, that's quick? Or is it that they are mediocre after having 6 of their last 7 seasons under .500, including three 4 win seasons and a 3 win season?
They are a helluva lot further along than we are. And they are squarely in the playoff hunt. And, this it important, they have done this by being on the road for the last six weeks. They have to have more travel miles than any team in the NFL - by far.
I can imagine back to 2016. That sure was fun..... The ecstasy was palpitating.
Just like people proclaiming the Browns on the road to glory after finishing below .500 last season, how many examples of teams improving are we going to be shown as models that aren't anything tangible to follow? Or for that matter - be envious of.
I think a lot of the fanbase has gone down the same path as the organization: too comfortable with losing.
This board has been drowning in an ocean of excuses and rationalizations that all are in denial of the fact that the organization is broken. That seems too uncomfortable a thought for some.
In FMiC's eyes, luck is a huge element in the NFL. Other teams are just experiencing a run of better luck than we are for now. So let's keep our fingers crossed, rub some rabbit's feet, and avoid black cats, and eventually Gettleman will get it right.
How else can you explain the lengths he goes to every day to justify Gettleman's moves?
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I can't speak for everyone...
bw in dc : 8:57 pm : link : reply
but I think the purpose of the OP's post was to explore why the Raiders have made this quick turnaround (to date - they could still slip).
So because they went from terrible to mediocre in one season, that's quick? Or is it that they are mediocre after having 6 of their last 7 seasons under .500, including three 4 win seasons and a 3 win season?
No, they brought in a new regime at the same time we did. They tore the team down to the bones at the same time that we did.
As bw has said, we don't know how sustainable what they have built is, but they have shown clear improvement. The regime has given people a reason to believe that they are moving in the right direction and that they deserve more time.
What reasons do we have to believe in this regime?
I think a lot of the fanbase has gone down the same path as the organization: too comfortable with losing.
This board has been drowning in an ocean of excuses and rationalizations that all are in denial of the fact that the organization is broken. That seems too uncomfortable a thought for some.
I remember BBI when posters mocked Fassel for his incompetence. Until his last year, a Fassel led Giant team was never worse than 7-9. Think about that.
And that is the issue at hand.
So both teams started their rebuilding race basically side by side. The Raiders have been worse than the Giants over a longer period. Both teams had a severe lack of talent and needed to restock their shelves.
Both took lumps last year. The Raiders traded their best players both before and during the season.
Now this year in "Phase 2" for both teams, the Giants can't beat anyone. The Raiders, are 5-4, have had 10 rookies get significant snaps in games, and have the most TD's scored by rookies (12).
Maybe the Raiders are taking advantage of a softer than expected schedule. But that was the same rationale given during the summer by some fans for why the Giants might be able to stay competitive through Thanksgiving. Was asking for the team to be 4-6 or 5-5 at this moment all that unreasonable?
Oakland may make the playoffs while Giants fans are hoping to be high enough to get, at minimum, the #3 spot in the draft.
Raiders had to replace 3/5ths of its offensive line after having perhaps the best o-line in the NFL in 2016.
You can see some the players on the Raiders and pinpoint pieces that will be part of their future right on the field as they are making immediate contributions AND they have the additional draft capital in the bank so reinforcements are coming soon. They don't have to use the "We're playing rookies! What do you expect?" excuse.
Here, we can't even on ONE hand count the amount of offensive and defensive linemen we would even want to keep going into next season.
Raiders have given their fans legitimate hope. Giants are trying to sell you that things are not as bad as it looks.
I got trading OBJ, thats a hit. And yeah I know he signed him first but then the interview where OBJ took a shit on the entire NYG organization came out. Good value, not great, sent a message, got some other personnel traded. A hit.
I wont list Jones as a hit b/c its still way too soon to tell.
What else is a hit? Not saying there arent any, just that they arent jumping out at me.
Not really sure why anyones giving DG much credit for anything or the benefit of the doubt. The LW trade is just bizarre. He isnt some kind of cap wizard. DG seems lost to me.
Legitimate? Let me guess, the Browns gave their fans legitimate hope last season, right? Legitimacy comes in the form of sustained winning or at least a couple years of it.
The Giants don't get credit for 2016. The Raiders, Browns and any other teams that may not even break .500 shouldn't either.