I keep hearing the Giants are 3-4 years away. I also hear Gettleman deserves at minimum 3 years to see this through - I think all of that is bullshit.
The Raiders sold off their team LAST YEAR. Everyone here wanted no part of trading for David Carr (so, dont tell me the Raiders were super talented). Yet, they are 5-4 one year later with a good chance to make the playoffs.
Are we all so beaten down as a fan base where we keep saying this is a 4-5 year rebuild & Gettleman needs more time? Look around the NFL - it should NOT take this long to be competitive (this team doesnt even compete in losses). We are in worse shape than we were in 2017!!
Look at the Raiders. It should not take this long to be competitive.
I don't. I think it's going to result in another Shurmur.
I don't. I think it's going to result in another Shurmur.
This is why Gettleman will fight like hell with one more year WITH Shurmur. No coach is walking into this situation with Gettleman as a lame duck.
2. Keeping Eli (twice) AND drafting a quarterback in 2019 #6 overall
3. Signing Beckham and trading him a year later
That isn't hindsight, because I called all three of them before they happened. I'm just an asshole on a message board and I have had more foresight on the critical decisions than the people running the Giants. How is that not fireable?
My opinio granted.. But I would add these:
1) Horrendous self scouting. The belief that the Giants had enough to contend for something particularly last year, and to a lesser extent this year.
2) The absence of OL draft picks (a #2 and a #7 are not enough) when you come in knowing you need 5 new OL players. And building the OL was part of the mandate.
3) Its again my opinion of course, and has been hotly debated, but I would add picking Barkley at a time when the team had so many holes as to make any possible greatness on his part meaningless to overall success, even if you believe in RBs having position value. Of course, items 1 and 2 are major factors in diminishing any value SB might have had.
Do you guys agree?
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as much as it is a yin to other posters yang.
Perhaps...
You are an optimist Britt, and you don't defend DG to the same level. You have acknowledged that its been a mixed bag.
The thing is most of the DG critics will agree that its been a mixed bag. It's just which parts of the bag the individual think is more important and deserves to be emphasized.
I don't have the same impression from FMiC. Maybe, I am wrong, maybe he can clarify.
Fatman doesn't need me to back him up at all...
But his response above is consistent with the way I've viewed his posts the whole time. He's not defending as much as he's calling out inaccuracies in regards to things people are using as "facts" to bash Gettleman. Things that are in most cases subjective and in others flat out wrong.
Do you guys agree?
I don't. There are problems that should have been identified early and haven't been improved upon. I'll name one huge one:
Where are the analytics experts to help Shurmur in real time with game management decisions? Why hasn't Gettleman prioritized this?
2. Keeping Eli (twice) AND drafting a quarterback in 2019 #6 overall
3. Signing Beckham and trading him a year later
That isn't hindsight, because I called all three of them before they happened. I'm just an asshole on a message board and I have had more foresight on the critical decisions than the people running the Giants. How is that not fireable?
The fact that some are defending it shouldn't be surprising it. The "not so bad" crowd. However, going by their track record these past several years with predictions and whatnot, I guess it shouldn't be surprising.
My point to Greg is a common one to posters here - Gettleman gets absolutely no credence from some of these posters. And they often intentionally dismiss his career accomplishments. Greg doesn't give a shit about Gettleman being a scout for several SB teams. OK. He also doesn't give him any credit for going to a SB as a GM?? It doesn't make sense.
I'm providing a counter-point for the people who made their minds up from the method in which Gettleman was hired that he wasn't a good choice or he is incompetent. And when I say he deserves better, there are obtuse posters who say he doesn't and never has. It's complete bullshit.
Go Terps likes to say that Gettleman has committed a number of "fireable offenses", yet if one were to look at moves made by John Lynch, thoose same moves that are fireable offenses for one man are championship-type moves for another. It's illogical. I'm sure he'll post Gettleman's record here as proof though (inconveniently not posted Gettleman's record as Carolina's GM).
Even in the analytics discussion - why was I drawn into it? Because of the flat out lie that Gettleman shuns analytics and didn't use them in Carolina. Again - that is directed more at NGD, but it is yet another instance of people taking quotes out of context and not even doing precursory research to see that a point is full of shit.
Instead of wondering why a poster on a Giants fan board challenges those statements, you should be wondering why exaggeration and hyperbole is used to bash the GM. There are legitimate points when Gettleman hasn't done well (and I have no idea where I've defended his FA moves), but to come on weekly after a loss and have several "Fire Gettleman" threads or have posters who l;iterally say he hasn't done a single thing well it is madness. Hell, even today there was a post saying that Gettleman's drafts have even sucked.
Frustration shouldn't be an excuse for people to sound idiotic and illogical.
I won't deny there are plenty of dumb takes on here. Somebody today suggested that Reese purposely sabotaged 2015 (eye roll). And another that claimed that Mara is a eunuch.
At this point, to take a step back and assess what DG has done in 2 years and come away wanting is not an unreasonable take. You may disagree, but it isn't unreasonable.
As much of a critic of DG as I have been, I don't know if you recall, but I was still advocating patience at the start of this season and that DG needed more time. As the season has gone on, and we have gotten more information, I have moved to the no more patience side of the equation. I think Terps is right, it will be near impossible to attract a good HC with DG in place.
Furthermore, we can now evaluate more of his moves.
The 2018 draft while not sucking, has only been average in its returns considering the team picked at the top of each round.
I give DG credit for the Jones pick, Lawrence looks good and Slayton seems to be the first real bargain pick.
Overall, we haven't gotten enough of a return from these drafts yet. And the lack of OL considering the need is fireable on its own. Maybe getting a QB overshadows anything else in some people's minds, IDK.
Perhaps you are not saying this, but your post suggests that you think his drafts are above criticism, when there is reasonable criticism that can be leveled.
Self scouting and FA have been poor to say the least.
The team is getting worse not better.
Ok there is a ton of frustration, and a ton of it is directed at DG. Maybe some folks are not clear eyed about exactly what they are criticizing.
That said, there is no doubt that the team is not moving in the right direction and DG has to shoulder a large part of that blame. I don't see that you are willing to even acknowledge that much.
Jesus H Christ it never ends. What would we do without such a neutral voice telling us who the real Dave Gettleman is.
Greg rightly points out that Gettleman was essentially a passenger when the Panthers got to the SB. That roster was built already. In essence, he was the Barry Switzer of GMs. He was keeping the lights on and making sure the trains ran on time. So what did Carolina do AFTER the SB while Gettleman was in charge? Answer - absolutely nothing noteworthy. Go look at his drafts and report back to me how high his hit rate was...
We were told by the Gettlemanites like Factman that Gettleman has this great skill of focusing and building great interior lines. Okay, so where are they? It's been two year of personnel changes with Gettleman's finger prints. But our OL still stinks and apparently we have the Fearsome Foursome DL waiting in the wings. Just give them more time to develop with the great coaching staff DG hired.
And Factman is still actually gullible enough to believe that Gettleman was hired because he was the best GM for the job. He totally eschews the fact that Accorsi was brought in to do the job search as just coincidence that Accorsi was a lifetime member of Jints Central, and that we should overlook that as inconsequential.
But as soon as Accorsi was announced, most of us quickly predicted that Gettleman would be the choice, not because of merit, but because of the ties that bind - a loyalist to the "Giants Way".
And here we are 2 years into the Gettleman Era and we are what are record says we are - a poorly coached and a poorly managed team. ALL under Gettleman's watch. But hey, let's give him more time because the "Reese left such a massive mess" excuse seems to have no statute of limitations.
I'm sure the Factman acolytes will now show up to parrot their leader...
So we're just lining this up for Shurmur to take Reese's place as the Boogeyman that's at the cause of all the problems?
We're doing this again?
Ok there is a ton of frustration, and a ton of it is directed at DG. Maybe some folks are not clear eyed about exactly what they are criticizing.
That said, there is no doubt that the team is not moving in the right direction and DG has to shoulder a large part of that blame. I don't see that you are willing to even acknowledge that much.
I have acknowledged that some moves made have failed. I've questioned the direction. But we can look directly at examples of other teams that posters use as possible models to emulate that looked similarly bleak as the Giants. We can't be told that having significant assets tied up in the RB position makes it impossible to compete when a team that just suffered their first loss has more $$$ tied to the position than any other team.
This thread is proof of the one-sidedness. People were convinced last season that Gruden was done. That the Raiders were wayward. And a year later, we look at them as a rebuild that can happen. That should give people pause when stating assertively that our team is getting worse and that there "is no doubt" the team is moving in the wrong direction.
My counterpoint is that you cannot have posters acknowledge that we are coming off a several year stretch of historically bad drafts and expect a quick turnaround. And that is what people expected.
And that's putting aside narratives that aren't fact based or used erroneously. The latest one that keeps being said is that no good coach will work with Gettleman. Just another knife in his back that is stated as fact - and likely isn't true at all.
If the team was moving in the right direction talentwise, with the same coaching staff in place, then the record should not be moving backwards.
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The right direction talent wise while simultaneously going in the wrong direction with coaching and player development.
If the team was moving in the right direction talentwise, with the same coaching staff in place, then the record should not be moving backwards.
Perhaps, but it isn't that simple to me. Young talent typically goes through ups and downs before you find out what you have. Highs and Lows
We certainly should ponder how much of a negative impact this CS is having on the young players. I feel that is a relevant point.
They told you it was going to happen definitively, or they explained why it could happen?
Stupid prediction threads aside to avoid the poster that likes to tell me all the time I predicted 10-6 and therefore every thing I've said since is not credible (disclaimer, I did in fact post 10-6 in that thread. With no other context. Just "10-6", and that resonated with certain posters....)
The age of NFL Parity is designed to level the playing field so that teams can go from worst to first with a good draft, some shrewd FA signings, and some luck (couple of lucky bounces here and there).
It's not insane to assume the positive can happen. Just because it didn't doesn't mean people are nuts. Did anybody point to San Fran this year as doing what they are doing PRIOR to this season? I don't remember it. I see a lot about it now, but I don't recall many predicting it then. They were 4-12 last year. 6-10 the year before, and 2-14 the year before that. You can do that with different teams every year. Why not the Giants?
I like to listen to people that have well reasoned opinions one way or the other.
For all the sh-t I took over the Eli stuff for the past couple of years, it was never really about defending him as much as it was I understood the reasoning why they did it. And it was defensible. It's not a fact it was the wrong move to keep him or not keep him was a mistake. It's still not a fact, even in hindsight, unless you know exactly how the alternative would have played out. It's an opinion.
I'll agree with FMIC on one thing - there's a one sidedness here that dictates the argument.
7-19. Two seasons over before Halloween.
Fatman, you were one of the people who said there were no more lengthy rebuilds. I think many of us here were hunkered down for a 2-3 year stretch of building once DG was hired. Gettleman seemed to put that off by a year by misjudging the team.
Giants Got Solder - ( New Window )
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The team is getting worse not better.
Ok there is a ton of frustration, and a ton of it is directed at DG. Maybe some folks are not clear eyed about exactly what they are criticizing.
That said, there is no doubt that the team is not moving in the right direction and DG has to shoulder a large part of that blame. I don't see that you are willing to even acknowledge that much.
I have acknowledged that some moves made have failed. I've questioned the direction. But we can look directly at examples of other teams that posters use as possible models to emulate that looked similarly bleak as the Giants. We can't be told that having significant assets tied up in the RB position makes it impossible to compete when a team that just suffered their first loss has more $$$ tied to the position than any other team.
This thread is proof of the one-sidedness. People were convinced last season that Gruden was done. That the Raiders were wayward. And a year later, we look at them as a rebuild that can happen. That should give people pause when stating assertively that our team is getting worse and that there "is no doubt" the team is moving in the wrong direction.
My counterpoint is that you cannot have posters acknowledge that we are coming off a several year stretch of historically bad drafts and expect a quick turnaround. And that is what people expected.
And that's putting aside narratives that aren't fact based or used erroneously. The latest one that keeps being said is that no good coach will work with Gettleman. Just another knife in his back that is stated as fact - and likely isn't true at all.
I think you conflating some things. Yes there have been a bunch of posters who have had higher expectations than have been warranted. In fact, the vast majority of those posters were optimists. Perhaps now many of them a really pissed, and feel betrayed and have made some acerbic posts. But don't mix that crowd with the long term critics.
I think there are plenty of people who never expected a quick turnaround. I don't think Terps, bw, GD, Googs, myself or any number of other critical posters expected a quick turn around. In fact, most of us, myself included, were telling folks to tamp down expectations, this team isn't there yet.
I know I went into this season looking for improvement in individual areas. Seeing some of the young players become something. The problem is that there is no improvement anywhere with 1 exception. The only good thing to come out of this year has been the development and play of DJ (and the jury is still out on him). Every other position group is playing worse. You can argue that its coaching (which is bad), but the same coaches were here last year.
Apples and oranges. The argument with Coughlin never made sense; Coughlin was a good coach with a track record. Also, players will generally follow the money.
We're talking about a head coach hire here though. We want a program builder - can someone come in and implement his program if his job is contingent on Gettleman having major say in his program?
Also, why are we separating Gettleman from Shurmur? Where are Gettleman's successes if it's just Shurmur's failures holding us back?
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There's plenty of idiocy on both sides, but we had plenty of people telling us this was a playoff team this year. We also had plenty of people telling us the idea of a multiyear rebuild was silly.
They told you it was going to happen definitively, or they explained why it could happen?
Stupid prediction threads aside to avoid the poster that likes to tell me all the time I predicted 10-6 and therefore every thing I've said since is not credible (disclaimer, I did in fact post 10-6 in that thread. With no other context. Just "10-6", and that resonated with certain posters....)
The age of NFL Parity is designed to level the playing field so that teams can go from worst to first with a good draft, some shrewd FA signings, and some luck (couple of lucky bounces here and there).
It's not insane to assume the positive can happen. Just because it didn't doesn't mean people are nuts. Did anybody point to San Fran this year as doing what they are doing PRIOR to this season? I don't remember it. I see a lot about it now, but I don't recall many predicting it then. They were 4-12 last year. 6-10 the year before, and 2-14 the year before that. You can do that with different teams every year. Why not the Giants?
I like to listen to people that have well reasoned opinions one way or the other.
For all the sh-t I took over the Eli stuff for the past couple of years, it was never really about defending him as much as it was I understood the reasoning why they did it. And it was defensible. It's not a fact it was the wrong move to keep him or not keep him was a mistake. It's still not a fact, even in hindsight, unless you know exactly how the alternative would have played out. It's an opinion.
That's a useless semantic argument - people predicted playoffs and they were dumb for doing so.
I don't follow SF closely enough to have a good view.
I also think parity in the NFL is overstated.
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My counterpoint is that you cannot have posters acknowledge that we are coming off a several year stretch of historically bad drafts and expect a quick turnaround. And that is what people expected.
Fatman, you were one of the people who said there were no more lengthy rebuilds. I think many of us here were hunkered down for a 2-3 year stretch of building once DG was hired. Gettleman seemed to put that off by a year by misjudging the team.
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I've been saying this for awhile now, but there are no more lengthy rebuilds in the NFL anymore. With the cap - you only have windows to work in - and in those windows, you try to shore up areas of weakness, add depth when possible and hope injuries don't wipe out all of that work.
Giants Got Solder - ( New Window )
Nice catch Brett...
As I said, he is somehow conflating the expectation of a quick turn around that one side of this debate had, and blaming the other side for it.
I think the critics have been pretty darn consistent in their evaluation of this team's suckitude.
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A time when good fa's wouldn't want to sign here because of Coughlin. The point is that we don't know. If you want to speculate that, fine, but to say it as if it's foolish to doubt such an opinion isn't reasonable imo
Apples and oranges. The argument with Coughlin never made sense; Coughlin was a good coach with a track record. Also, players will generally follow the money.
We're talking about a head coach hire here though. We want a program builder - can someone come in and implement his program if his job is contingent on Gettleman having major say in his program?
Also, why are we separating Gettleman from Shurmur? Where are Gettleman's successes if it's just Shurmur's failures holding us back?
I didn't say it was JUST Shurmur. My point is, player evaluation can be thrown off by bad coaching staffs. I don't think bad coaching staffs typically put their players in positions to succeed, I don't think bad coaching staffs do an adequate job with player development.
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In comment 14677578 BrettNYG10 said:
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There's plenty of idiocy on both sides, but we had plenty of people telling us this was a playoff team this year. We also had plenty of people telling us the idea of a multiyear rebuild was silly.
They told you it was going to happen definitively, or they explained why it could happen?
Stupid prediction threads aside to avoid the poster that likes to tell me all the time I predicted 10-6 and therefore every thing I've said since is not credible (disclaimer, I did in fact post 10-6 in that thread. With no other context. Just "10-6", and that resonated with certain posters....)
The age of NFL Parity is designed to level the playing field so that teams can go from worst to first with a good draft, some shrewd FA signings, and some luck (couple of lucky bounces here and there).
It's not insane to assume the positive can happen. Just because it didn't doesn't mean people are nuts. Did anybody point to San Fran this year as doing what they are doing PRIOR to this season? I don't remember it. I see a lot about it now, but I don't recall many predicting it then. They were 4-12 last year. 6-10 the year before, and 2-14 the year before that. You can do that with different teams every year. Why not the Giants?
I like to listen to people that have well reasoned opinions one way or the other.
For all the sh-t I took over the Eli stuff for the past couple of years, it was never really about defending him as much as it was I understood the reasoning why they did it. And it was defensible. It's not a fact it was the wrong move to keep him or not keep him was a mistake. It's still not a fact, even in hindsight, unless you know exactly how the alternative would have played out. It's an opinion.
That's a useless semantic argument - people predicted playoffs and they were dumb for doing so.
I don't follow SF closely enough to have a good view.
I also think parity in the NFL is overstated.
There is 1 team that has debunked parity...
2 or 3 more teams that have been consistent winners of the past 20 years.
And a handful of bottom feeders that have provided the counterpoint.
For the the rest of the 24 or so teams in the middle, parity is a real thing.
If you ask me, that's what the giants tried to do last season. They were screwed by historically poor drafts and massive overpays for players in 2016. They tried to give it a go because that's really the only viable option. And there's a significant difference in the perception of that. You have posters killing Gettleman for giving it a go as if the impact was lasting and devastating. It wasn't. The dead money was going to be the dead money. You had to eat those contracts at some point. So you are still working with a pie that have a bunch of slices missing and bites out of the remaining pieces.
Historically, teams with dead money do poorly - and the Giants weren't an exception. When Gettleman took over in Carolina, he inherited the worst cap situation in the NFL and he turned that situation around in 18 months, but he still had a core group of players who were relatively cheap to build around. He didn't have that here in NY.
He's done the majority of the tear down and next year is when he has complete ownership on the state of the team. When I said there were no lengthy rebuilds, it was often in response to people saying we were fucked for the next 10 years.
What Gettleman has tried to do is completely revamp a team in 2 years. He's done it - and the question that looms is - will it provide results? THat's where we are at - and this is the same view that JonC, Eric and others have pointed out time and again.
I bashed McAdoo in 2017 because my expectations were much, much higher. I thought they were woefully under-performing the team's potential. Yet DG seems to be defended by those who thought we'd do well.
I think a lot of posters are claiming more time for the GM to take on a task that required multiple seasons to accomplish.
Many of us were prepared for a tear down. My biggest criticism of DG is that I don't think his actions in 2018 seemed to move in that direction.
The actions in 2019 do. I'm fine with the strategy this year - whether it pays off, I'm not sure. DG has lost a lot of my confidence due to poor self-scouting and failures along the OL.
I'm not as harsh or strongly against DG as Go Terps is, for example. But my leash is short.
I bashed McAdoo in 2017 because my expectations were much, much higher. I thought they were woefully under-performing the team's potential. Yet DG seems to be defended by those who thought we'd do well.
Because they seen a plan. Look at mort's post from yesterday.
The results haven't been there, but maybe they will be next year.
Again, look at San Fran: 2-14, 6-10, 4-12.... This year, 8-1. It happens.
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They tried to give it a go because that's really the only viable option.
Many of us were prepared for a tear down. My biggest criticism of DG is that I don't think his actions in 2018 seemed to move in that direction.
The actions in 2019 do. I'm fine with the strategy this year - whether it pays off, I'm not sure. DG has lost a lot of my confidence due to poor self-scouting and failures along the OL.
I'm not as harsh or strongly against DG as Go Terps is, for example. But my leash is short.
He gave it a go, and then pivoted midseason and did the tear down. I actually respect that.
Some people preferred that he start that way. I say, what was lost? About 8 games as I see it. But at least we knew. Gettleman, through his actions, has shown the ability to admit mistakes and cut losses. I like that. He might not have done it on your schedule, but he did do it, and has been proactive since.
If they go 5-11, I imagine we'll hear more bullshit about how it's part of the rebuild.
Bottom line - he's done a lousy job to date.
Yep. When the scenario they predicted didn't come to pass (at ALL), they simply shifted gears and claimed that this was all part of a master plan.
Our situation is entirely different. Gettleman/Shurmur do not have that kind of leash & Shurmur doesnt have say in personnel decisions.
If they go 5-11, I imagine we'll hear more bullshit about how it's part of the rebuild.
Even more reason to cheer the team on. :)
I'm not as harsh or strongly against DG as Go Terps is, for example. But my leash is short.
Especially when looking at the body of work of the HC. The failures on the OL are legitimate issues too. I don't disagree with that.
Just like I tried to explain to McL's question to me above - I'm not some guy waving pom-poms for Gettleman. I'm just not swinging a pitchfork at him for each and every move. That's a key difference. I also don't dismiss why people act as if his entire career has been terrible when it hasn't, and in order to crap on him here, they crap on him for Carolina - which is pretty inexplicable to me, especially when he is looked very fondly by the fans here.
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Fatman, I don't agree with this at all:
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They tried to give it a go because that's really the only viable option.
Many of us were prepared for a tear down. My biggest criticism of DG is that I don't think his actions in 2018 seemed to move in that direction.
The actions in 2019 do. I'm fine with the strategy this year - whether it pays off, I'm not sure. DG has lost a lot of my confidence due to poor self-scouting and failures along the OL.
I'm not as harsh or strongly against DG as Go Terps is, for example. But my leash is short.
He gave it a go, and then pivoted midseason and did the tear down. I actually respect that.
Some people preferred that he start that way. I say, what was lost? About 8 games as I see it. But at least we knew. Gettleman, through his actions, has shown the ability to admit mistakes and cut losses. I like that. He might not have done it on your schedule, but he did do it, and has been proactive since.
I don't respect it at all - it was a massive failure in self-scouting.
We also signed Solder, kept Eli on, and wasted picks on Ogletree (and that's off the top of my head). We wasted cap space on resources meant to win today that we could have rolled forward.
I was fine with the DG hire. I was not thrilled, but fine. I give him credit for CAR's success - just like I give Reese for his success here. I was alarmed when he made moves I thought were made with the intent of winning now. I was also alarmed that much of the scouting infrastructure remained in place.
I did not like picking a RB at #2. I do very much like that he ignored the calls for a QB in 2018 and picked an unpopular one in 2019 - and is seemingly right in that approach so far. I wanted a QB in 2018, but I don't watch college football so I don't know who was actually good. The stars seemed to align. I admire him ignoring that and then going after his guy the following year.
I think his FA's have been atrocious. I'm far more cautious on his drafts than others. They still need time.
So I agree, a mixed bag. I'm fine with another year from him.
I was 100% wrong on Shurmur, though. I wanted him hired and he is brutal.
I fully admit to being disgusted by Gettleman being hired in the first place so yeah, my views are undoubtedly colored by that. Still, given what we've seen so far, he's given me few reasons to reconsider that judgment. Jones has been better than expected, Connelly looked decent in the brief time he played, Lawrence could be very good, Hernandez has shown some promise (although he hasn't progressed at all from last year to this year), Slayton's been a pleasant surprise. That's pretty much it as far as positives go, and there is a mountain of negatives outweighing them.
Hernandez - in particular - is often sold as a sure thing along the lines when I think he's struggled wildly at times. He's not 05 Chris Snee yet.
We don't have Mayock running our draft and we don't have a good coach.
And our owner is absolutely clueless.
I don't think thats necessarily true. Our record is worse, but its a completely different team with a rookie QB who is turning over the ball at an alarming rate. Some of these things are TBD, but its really splitting hairs I guess. We're bottom of the league bad.