Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

NGT: Russell - Mahomes - Lamar

AndyMilligan : 11/12/2019 12:19 am
These may very well be the three best players in the NFL. It would be great if the fan base acknowledges it and then maybe management will get the idea and get the next guy like this if he falls in our laps.

When Russell was allegedly available in the off-season many argued he wasn't worth it. Firstly, he was never really available. Only clueless people thought that was serious. he would be worth Barkley and another first.

And recently we had folks here (allstarjim) who doesn't think Lamar jackson is good. He wouldn't trade BArkley for Lamar Jackson and Nick Chubb (2 guys we could have had if we dealt the #2 pick for two firsts. I would trade Barkley for Lamar alone straight up. The point is if we acknowledge greatness, the players that make a difference, maybe one day management will see the light.

Jones might turn out fine. He won't be as great as these guys.
They're not similar players at all  
BestFeature : 11/12/2019 12:20 am : link
All they have in common is they're mobile, black, and good. Nor sure what you're getting at at all.
What about coaching  
adamg : 11/12/2019 12:21 am : link
All 3 of those guys have NFL level head coaches
Nice use of hindsight.  
smshmth8690 : 11/12/2019 12:23 am : link
.
RE: They're not similar players at all  
AndyMilligan : 11/12/2019 12:25 am : link
In comment 14676563 BestFeature said:
Quote:
All they have in common is they're mobile, black, and good. Nor sure what you're getting at at all.


they are all mobile, unconventional, play-makers out of structure, take the ball and win games. The Giants model is system QB. It would be nice to get a new age QB. Why do we have to be last to adopt the latest approach. Let's demand better.
RE: Nice use of hindsight.  
AndyMilligan : 11/12/2019 12:26 am : link
In comment 14676566 smshmth8690 said:
Quote:
.

so what? why shouldn't we point out what works, what is working, in an effort to make better decisions? the hindsight critique is a joke.. yea let's not look at what is working.
RE: RE: Nice use of hindsight.  
smshmth8690 : 11/12/2019 12:31 am : link
In comment 14676568 AndyMilligan said:
Quote:
In comment 14676566 smshmth8690 said:


Quote:


.


so what? why shouldn't we point out what works, what is working, in an effort to make better decisions? the hindsight critique is a joke.. yea let's not look at what is working.


Yeah Lamar Jackson is working for the Ravens, but even they passed him up with their first pick.
RE: RE: RE: Nice use of hindsight.  
AndyMilligan : 11/12/2019 12:39 am : link
In comment 14676570 smshmth8690 said:
Quote:
In comment 14676568 AndyMilligan said:


Quote:


In comment 14676566 smshmth8690 said:


Quote:


.


so what? why shouldn't we point out what works, what is working, in an effort to make better decisions? the hindsight critique is a joke.. yea let's not look at what is working.



Yeah Lamar Jackson is working for the Ravens, but even they passed him up with their first pick.


so what? the point is what should we do now? what should we look for in a QB going forward? Where is the NFL going? Where should we go?

If the draft were held today Lamar Jackson would be the first pick.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Nice use of hindsight.  
smshmth8690 : 11/12/2019 12:47 am : link
In comment 14676575 AndyMilligan said:
Quote:
In comment 14676570 smshmth8690 said:


Quote:


In comment 14676568 AndyMilligan said:


Quote:


In comment 14676566 smshmth8690 said:


Quote:


.


so what? why shouldn't we point out what works, what is working, in an effort to make better decisions? the hindsight critique is a joke.. yea let's not look at what is working.



Yeah Lamar Jackson is working for the Ravens, but even they passed him up with their first pick.



so what? the point is what should we do now? what should we look for in a QB going forward? Where is the NFL going? Where should we go?

If the draft were held today Lamar Jackson would be the first pick.


OK, so he'd be in Cleveland then.
I get it you don't like Jones, regardless he is the QB on the Giants, and they aren't going to be able to trade him for Jackson, Wilson, or Mahomes, and he will be the QB for the foreseeable future. It's your move, get to your point. If you were GM who would you dump Jones for?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Nice use of hindsight.  
AndyMilligan : 11/12/2019 1:30 am : link
In comment 14676579 smshmth8690 said:
Quote:
In comment 14676575 AndyMilligan said:


Quote:


In comment 14676570 smshmth8690 said:


Quote:


In comment 14676568 AndyMilligan said:


Quote:


In comment 14676566 smshmth8690 said:


Quote:


.


so what? why shouldn't we point out what works, what is working, in an effort to make better decisions? the hindsight critique is a joke.. yea let's not look at what is working.



Yeah Lamar Jackson is working for the Ravens, but even they passed him up with their first pick.



so what? the point is what should we do now? what should we look for in a QB going forward? Where is the NFL going? Where should we go?

If the draft were held today Lamar Jackson would be the first pick.



OK, so he'd be in Cleveland then.
I get it you don't like Jones, regardless he is the QB on the Giants, and they aren't going to be able to trade him for Jackson, Wilson, or Mahomes, and he will be the QB for the foreseeable future. It's your move, get to your point. If you were GM who would you dump Jones for?


i would like them to think ahead. think about the new world of the nfl. Of course they need to continue with Jones, try to make use of his mobility. Coach him up. I think he is fine. But if there is a QB with next level skills available to them, they need to think about it, maybe as soon as the 2020 draft.
Mahomes is way more similar to Aaron Rodgers  
Mike from SI : 11/12/2019 2:43 am : link
than he is to Lamar Jackson. Wilson's game has evolved kind of like McNabb's (before he fell off the cliff)--started out relying on his feet a lot but got better and better as a passer.

If you wanted to make the case that mobility is key, I'd sub out Mahomes for Deshaun Watson.

Jones has above average mobility for a QB, he's just never going to be confused with Deshaun or Lamar, but that's ok.

I think the RG3 shooting star / fiasco incorrectly turned a lot of people off to the idea that a mobile QB can win. Steve Young did it, Russ did it, Kaep was one play short of doing it, and I wouldn't be surprised if Lamar or Deshaun do it. Mitch Trubisky will not do it lol.
It's  
Toth029 : 11/12/2019 3:42 am : link
Extremely hard to get a quality coach(s) like John Harbaugh, Andy Reid, and Pete Carroll.

They don't grow on trees. Get a grip.
So youíre suggesting  
Giant John : 11/12/2019 4:41 am : link
We dump DJ to take a chance on someone new? How much though did you put into this idea?
How do you Jones  
giants_10_88 : 11/12/2019 5:49 am : link
won't end up as good as Wilson and Jackson?

Also Mahomes isn't as mobile as Wilson or Jackson.

Jones, Mahomes and Deshaun are closer to each other in mobility than either is to Wilson or Jackson.
RE: Mahomes is way more similar to Aaron Rodgers  
Drewcon40 : 11/12/2019 5:50 am : link
In comment 14676596 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
than he is to Lamar Jackson.


Mike great post - especially the Mahomes comparison.

I wonder if Ben McAdoo was able to convince the Giants to trade up and select Mahomes, how the dominoes would fall. I am not unhappy with Jones but if McAdoo had Mahomes, how would the Eli transition have gone and McAdoo coached Aaron for a bit. Would he have a more creative offense? It’s a bye week - just thinking of what if’s.
So the point here is for Giant fans to admire  
Jimmy Googs : 11/12/2019 5:59 am : link
the 3 best QBs and then our front office will recognize we want great players and find them?

Idk about everyone else  
mattnyg05 : 11/12/2019 6:09 am : link
But Jones kind of reminds me (a little!) of Russell Wilson in terms of being mobile and putting passes directly where they need to be. I donít think this thread is about actual on-field though if ya know what I mean...

I think we got our mobile qb of the future already.
RE: So the point here is for Giant fans to admire  
UConn4523 : 11/12/2019 6:26 am : link
In comment 14676611 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
the 3 best QBs and then our front office will recognize we want great players and find them?


Come on Jimmy itís like Christmas. Youíve been good all year and now itís time to write Santa...donít blow it!

Might be my favorite thread of the year.
RE: Mahomes is way more similar to Aaron Rodgers  
giants#1 : 11/12/2019 6:31 am : link
In comment 14676596 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
than he is to Lamar Jackson. Wilson's game has evolved kind of like McNabb's (before he fell off the cliff)--started out relying on his feet a lot but got better and better as a passer.

If you wanted to make the case that mobility is key, I'd sub out Mahomes for Deshaun Watson.

Jones has above average mobility for a QB, he's just never going to be confused with Deshaun or Lamar, but that's ok.

I think the RG3 shooting star / fiasco incorrectly turned a lot of people off to the idea that a mobile QB can win. Steve Young did it, Russ did it, Kaep was one play short of doing it, and I wouldn't be surprised if Lamar or Deshaun do it. Mitch Trubisky will not do it lol.


None of those guys belong with Lamar Jackson. Watson/Wilson are mobile QBs, Jackson is a running QB. Wilson averages 5.7 rushes/game, Watson 5.8 rpg, Jackson 10.1 and for reference a stationary QB like Brady averages 2.1 rpg (basically kneel downs and QB sneaks).

Jackson had 2 major concerns: 1) could he get his comp% to a respectable level (so far exceeding all expections here) and 2) could he stay healthy getting 10+ rpg?

For the latter question, the closest analogs are Newton (7.5 rpg) and Vick (~7.5 rpg at his peak). Newton was relatively healthy until the last couple years, missed only 2 games his first 5 seasons, whereas Vick was constantly banged up and missed a few games almost every year. We'll see how Jackson holds up over his career, but so far he's running it considerably more than even these 2.

As for Jones, attempts wise he's between the statues and mobile QBs with 3.6 rpg so far. But his y/a is better than Wilson's and Watson's career marks and his yards/game isn't far off. I don't think it's a stretch to say a better offensive scheme would have Jones getting an additional 1-2 carries/game like we saw against Dallas (6 att/54 yards).
RE: RE: They're not similar players at all  
FStubbs : 11/12/2019 6:41 am : link
In comment 14676567 AndyMilligan said:
Quote:
In comment 14676563 BestFeature said:


Quote:


All they have in common is they're mobile, black, and good. Nor sure what you're getting at at all.



they are all mobile, unconventional, play-makers out of structure, take the ball and win games. The Giants model is system QB. It would be nice to get a new age QB. Why do we have to be last to adopt the latest approach. Let's demand better.


Do you watch Giants games? Jones has these traits too, he just needs to work on ball security and needs an offensive line.
I believe  
LS : 11/12/2019 6:45 am : link
Jackson threw the slowest ball of the QBs at the combine. Wouldn't be a concern at the time?
Combine QB arm strength - ( New Window )
The OP is a dupe and/or troll  
GiantGolfer : 11/12/2019 6:51 am : link
Donít feed him.
Jones is like Wilson to me (hopefully will be as good)  
PatersonPlank : 11/12/2019 6:58 am : link
Mahomes is like Rodgers to me. Lamar is like Vick.

So what is the point, besides AndyMilligan thinks all black QB's are alike.
RE: RE: So the point here is for Giant fans to admire  
Jimmy Googs : 11/12/2019 7:00 am : link
In comment 14676614 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14676611 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


the 3 best QBs and then our front office will recognize we want great players and find them?




Come on Jimmy itís like Christmas. Youíve been good all year and now itís time to write Santa...donít blow it!

Might be my favorite thread of the year.


Dear Santa - Based on last evening I would like a Russell Wilson and a Jadeveon Clowney. Please deliver to Met Life stadium.

Oh, and a good bottle of 18 year old scotch. That goes to a different address...
Did Daniel Jones just throw for 4 TD's, 300 yards, and 0 INT's?  
Britt in VA : 11/12/2019 7:10 am : link
Plus rushed for a couple of first downs, missing 3 of his starting O-linemen, his starting TE, and one of his starting WR's?

What's wrong with what we've got? Put a fucking team around him.
Theyíre all great QBs  
Justlurking : 11/12/2019 7:13 am : link
But Jones is seriously the last thing Iím worried about when it comes to the raging dumpster fire that is the Giants. More more concerned with the lack of athleticism on defense, the horrid offensive linemen, the average ďhand of godĒ RB, the inability to use the Hand of God in space, the poor asset management/positional value, the clueless head coach and the worst coaching staff ever assembled.

Seriously, has there ever been a worse all around coaching staff than this? Every single guy is a loser except for (maybe) Tolbert.
I like Daniel Jones a whole lot  
Jimmy Googs : 11/12/2019 7:13 am : link
but if I am picking guys, yeah I will take Russell Wilson.

Don't get yourself all worked up...its a hypothetical thread for christ sake.
So we get to re draft?  
Boatie Warrant : 11/12/2019 7:47 am : link
Yes! We will go back in time and redraft the last 8 drafts but only we have today's knowledge.

While only picking players after our original picks. This is just our first, 1st round selections
2012 - Bobby Wagner
2013 - DeAndre Hopkins
2014 - Aaron Donald
2015 - Marcus Peters
2016 - hmmmmmm - trade up get Conklin?
2017 - Ryan Ramczyk
2018 - Saquon
2019 - Jones

I would fix the o-line with second round picks (only the best of course)
how about waiting a year or 2  
nochance : 11/12/2019 7:49 am : link
Lamar Jackson the NFL's best? They said this about RG3,Vick and others before the defenses got enough game film and planned for these trick offenses. I'm not saying they can't
become great but their game plan is going to have to constantly evolve or they will fail(See Josh Freeman).
Isn't Jones faster  
Matt M. : 11/12/2019 7:51 am : link
than all of them?
You know what  
Boatie Warrant : 11/12/2019 7:52 am : link
Instead lets go back in time and convince George Young to hire Belichick as our HC after Parcells left.

That would be great!
No doubt  
5BowlsSoon : 11/12/2019 7:53 am : link
All are great players indeed. And they all seem to be GREAT guys too. I Especially love rooting for good role model type guys.
Thought this was NGT?  
barens : 11/12/2019 8:05 am : link
.
Russell Wilson is the best of these 3 ....  
Spider56 : 11/12/2019 8:18 am : link
He was never a running QB but heís always used his legs to open up throwing lanes, extend plays and extend drives. He did this consistently ainít college and continued it in the pros; plus heís very smart, understands the game and makes his receivers better. AND he had a ring. Mahomes May wear the title of best in a few years, but not yet. Jackson is still an Ďehí to me ... outstanding runner, strong arm but questionable judgement. We shall see. Iím very happy with Jones ... if we can get him an OL before he gets punch drunk.
This is where the OP misses the mark.  
BillT : 11/12/2019 8:28 am : link
ďBut if there is a QB with next level skills available to them, they need to think about it, maybe as soon as the 2020 draft.Ē

Jones is closer to the Russell, Mahomes model than they are to Jackson. They are more athletic versions of Aaron Rogers. Great throwers who have great mobility. Jackson is a running QB who uses his legs to gain significant positive yardage much like Carson Wentz was. Heís not Russell or Mahomes.
Wilson is QB1 for me  
Sy'56 : 11/12/2019 8:29 am : link
And I do like Lamar and Mahomes....but we can just hold off before we label them anything special? We have seen this before guys, come on.

Go look at RGIII and his early years with WAS.

Every QB produces under Andy Reid (look at Alex Smith and even Matt Moore!)

We can discuss those guys as the best if they are still doing it 2-3 years from now.
Jones has fumblin issues  
giants_10_88 : 11/12/2019 8:30 am : link
which he will have to work on.

But the fumbles stem from 3 sources

1. Poor pocket awareness which he can fix on
2. Immense pressure which we can fix with a better OL for him
3. Holding the ball too long which we can fix by getting players that get seperation quicker.

He'll clean it up. He is an excellent thrower of the ball.

And on those read option plays he should be holding on to it more imo. Could have seen a couple nice gains.
Also get a TE that can block and  
giants_10_88 : 11/12/2019 8:33 am : link
catch and that will help too imo.

Defense sucks but we should go all out on offense in the draft and free agency.

Need 2 OTs, a center, a # 1 WR and a real TE.
Why does DJ get killed for his fumbles  
Big Rick in FL : 11/12/2019 8:58 am : link
But nobody mentions Lamars fumbles as a rookie? He had 371 dropbacks/carries last year and fumbled 15 times. A fumble every 24.7 touches. DJ has 361 dropbacks/carries this year and 13 fumbles. A fumble every 27.7 touches.

DJ is playing with a significantly worse team in general. Especially his coaching staff & offensive line. People seem to forget the Ravens were a 9-7 team the year prior to drafting Lamar. The Giants were a 5 win team which was skewed by playing 2 backup QBs and 2 third string QBs.
Moronical stuff  
Giantology : 11/12/2019 9:02 am : link
Par for the course with the OP.
So DJ has had 10 less total touches.  
Big Rick in FL : 11/12/2019 9:15 am : link
He has 2192 yards from scrimmage with 17 total TDs while completing 63% of his passes.

Lamar had 2144 yards from scrimmage with 13 total TDs while completing 58.2% of his passes.
Every team could have had Jackson and Wilson  
Rudy5757 : 11/12/2019 9:20 am : link
No one thought they would be as good as they are including the teams that drafted them. Even Mahomes was the 3rd or 4th QB off the board.

If anyone thought they would be this good they would have been top 5 picks and teams would have been tripping over themselves to get them.

jackson would be a disaster on this team. He is a good player in a great situation. i would pass on him even today because we have no talent around him to work with.

mahomes and Wilson both make their teams better but they both came into the league with talented rosters so the transition was easy.

The Giants talent is as bad as it gets. We have good players at some positions but no great players. Even the ones that have promise to be great are only rookies or 2nd year players. the roster is full of young potentially good players.

None of those QBs would have the type of success with this roster. maybe a few more wins but this team is not a playoff caliber team, way too many holes.
RE: They're not similar players at all  
allstarjim : 11/12/2019 10:23 am : link
In comment 14676563 BestFeature said:
Quote:
All they have in common is they're mobile, black, and good. Nor sure what you're getting at at all.


This is Mahomes' mom:



I really don't care about race, but I'm just asking because I don't know what the answer is, but I think it would be weird if people called someone like Mahomes white because he has one white parent, but people often refer to those of mixed race with one white and one black parent as black or African American. In the grand scheme of things, really doesn't matter, but I just find that strange.

I don't care what he is, but Mahomes is the MVP of the league, he's my favorite QB to watch, (Wilson a close second), and he's just remarkable.

To OP, Lamar Jackson has proven he can win in the regular season. Admittedly, he has improved as a passer. I remain pessimistic that he is a championship-caliber franchise QB, because I still don't believe he's as refined enough as a passer that if the legs go, he can still be a winner. If his speed is taken from him, and he has to win from the pocket, can he do that? I don't think he can. To me, that's one criteria for a championship-caliber franchise QB. I appreciate what he is, and he might have flash-in-the-pan success. I'd prefer the Giants pick a QB that is going to lead to sustained success for many years.

For example, Ben Roethlisberger...rarely has a Roethlisberger team not made the playoffs. Same goes for Russell Wilson. His team has been in the playoffs 6 out of 7 seasons and extremely likely to make it 7 of 8. The one miss they still went 9-7. That's what I want...a perennial playoff contender. You can change a lot of parts on a team, but if you REALLY get that QB position right, they will carry you to the playoffs year after year.

Where will Lamar Jackson be in 5, 6, or 7 years? If he's still the amazing athlete he is, he'll be doing just fine and the Ravens will have won a lot of games. If he's not, then I think the Ravens will be looking for another QB.
I have nothing to add other than Patrick Mahome's mom is hot.  
Britt in VA : 11/12/2019 10:27 am : link
that is all.
RE: I have nothing to add other than Patrick Mahome's mom is hot.  
allstarjim : 11/12/2019 10:39 am : link
In comment 14676978 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
that is all.


She's a total MILF.
RE: I have nothing to add other than Patrick Mahome's mom is hot.  
BillKo : 11/12/2019 10:44 am : link
In comment 14676978 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
that is all.


I'm like, that's his mom?? LOL....not g/f????
.  
allstarjim : 11/12/2019 10:47 am : link
Here she is back in the day with a young Mahomes-y  
allstarjim : 11/12/2019 10:50 am : link


I think she looks better now.

Just wondering if you guys have thought about bundling your Mahomes-y and auto?
RE: So DJ has had 10 less total touches.  
AndyMilligan : 11/12/2019 11:28 am : link
In comment 14676785 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
He has 2192 yards from scrimmage with 17 total TDs while completing 63% of his passes.

Lamar had 2144 yards from scrimmage with 13 total TDs while completing 58.2% of his passes.


how about the part where Lamar is going to shatter the NFL record for rushing by a QB?
RE: Wilson is QB1 for me  
AndyMilligan : 11/12/2019 11:30 am : link
In comment 14676692 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
And I do like Lamar and Mahomes....but we can just hold off before we label them anything special? We have seen this before guys, come on.

Go look at RGIII and his early years with WAS.

Every QB produces under Andy Reid (look at Alex Smith and even Matt Moore!)

We can discuss those guys as the best if they are still doing it 2-3 years from now.


Sy, you wouldn't call Mahomes, anything special? After throwing 50TDs and winning the mvp in his first season as a starter? Lamar is beating the best teams in the NFL and going to shatter the QB rushing record. That isn't special? I'm confused what special is.
RE: RE: So DJ has had 10 less total touches.  
Big Rick in FL : 11/12/2019 12:20 pm : link
In comment 14677130 AndyMilligan said:
Quote:
In comment 14676785 Big Rick in FL said:


Quote:


He has 2192 yards from scrimmage with 17 total TDs while completing 63% of his passes.

Lamar had 2144 yards from scrimmage with 13 total TDs while completing 58.2% of his passes.



how about the part where Lamar is going to shatter the NFL record for rushing by a QB?


Cool? Nobody is saying he won't.

I was responding to you flat out saying DJ won't turn out to be as great as Lamar Jackson. Which is based on absolutely nothing considering DJ has outproduced Lamar Jackson as a rookie with less dropbacks/touches.
Not to mention your entire first post is wrong  
Big Rick in FL : 11/12/2019 12:39 pm : link
Russ & Mahomes are more similar to Daniel Jones than Lamar Jackson. Both of those guys are pocket passers that can scramble if they need to. Lamar is a runner that can kinda throw when he needs to.

Mahomes had 272 rush yards at 4.5 yards per attempt in 16 games last season.

DJ is averaging 6.5 yards per attempt this year. Only 0.1 yards less per attempt than Lamar this season and 2 yards more than Lamar had per attempt as a rookie.

Wilson is the only one of those qb's who has won a SB, he did it  
SterlingArcher : 11/12/2019 12:54 pm : link
with perhaps one of the best defenses ever and power running game. The other two have won nothing, until they do let's hold off on putting them in HoF!
RE: Not to mention your entire first post is wrong  
AndyMilligan : 11/13/2019 12:42 am : link
In comment 14677257 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
Russ & Mahomes are more similar to Daniel Jones than Lamar Jackson. Both of those guys are pocket passers that can scramble if they need to. Lamar is a runner that can kinda throw when he needs to.

Mahomes had 272 rush yards at 4.5 yards per attempt in 16 games last season.

DJ is averaging 6.5 yards per attempt this year. Only 0.1 yards less per attempt than Lamar this season and 2 yards more than Lamar had per attempt as a rookie.

I don't think you watch football. Pat Mahomes moves so much better than Daniel Jones it isn't funny. Mahomes senses pressure, evades it as good as anybody and throws on the run - like a champ. Movement is an immense part of Mahomes' game. I can't believe I have to say this.
RE: Wilson is the only one of those qb's who has won a SB, he did it  
AndyMilligan : 11/13/2019 12:42 am : link
In comment 14677297 SterlingArcher said:
Quote:
with perhaps one of the best defenses ever and power running game. The other two have won nothing, until they do let's hold off on putting them in HoF!


sheer nonsense
A lot of confusion here between  
eclipz928 : 11/13/2019 6:56 am : link
who are the players considered mobile quarterbacks versus those that are athletic. Jones is mobile, kinda like Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees - but he's not the athlete that Mahomes, Wilson, or even Wentz is. Those guys evade and break tackles regularly as part of their game. I think some here overestimate Jones' ability as a playmaker with his feet.

Watson and Jackson are on a completely different level in regard to athleticism compared to everyone else - and they've also been throwing the ball really well this year.
Back to the Corner