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John Mara has no balls: the thread

Ben in Tampa : 11/12/2019 9:13 am
The Giants have stunk since 2012. The record since 2012 is 49-73. One playoff appearance in that time. The worst record in Football since 2017.

A loser culture and it starts with John Mara's decision making in that time period. Take a look:

2012 - Misses playoffs as defending champs
2013 - 1st losing season in the Coughlin era
2014 - Keeps Coughlin, forces coordinator change (McAdoo)
2015 - Keeps Coughlin, forces coordinator change (Spagnuolo)
2016 - Fires Coughlin, Keeps Reese, Hires McAdoo, Keeps Staff
2017 - Fires McAdoo, Fires Reese
2018 - Keeps Eli, Hires Gettleman, Hires Shurmur
2019 - Drafts Jones, Keeps Eli

years and years of half measures. He has no vision for the franchise, absolutely no creativity and no balls. Is there really any question as to why this organization is now a bottom-tier ball club in the NFL?
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It should have been all blown up in 2013  
Lambuth_Special : 11/12/2019 9:50 am : link
Coughlin, Eli, Reese, Ross, etc. all gone.

The Superbowl run in 2011 masked a sustained period of mediocrity from 2009-2013, in which the Giants were only a combined six games above .500 for the regular season.

If you think this idea is crazy, well, this discussion was on the table here at BBI in 2013. There was measured debate about whether it made sense to cut ties with Eli, since the rebuilding process was likely to be painful and it would make more sense to do him a solid and send him to a better team in need of a QB, like the Texans.

Most of the criticism of Coughlin and Reese was in full swing by 2013 as well...The underwhelming second half-of-season performances, the poor roster construction, etc. The Giants just elected to remove Gilbride at the time.
RE: I know they had a few good years  
HomerJones45 : 11/12/2019 9:54 am : link
In comment 14676792 cjac said:
Quote:
after Wellington Mara passed, but his fingerprints were still all over the team. Coughlin/Eli Strahan etc...

Now that all that is gone and John Mara has been running this franchise for the past 15 years, i have no confidence that he has his fathers football acumen for knowing who are the right people to hire. I fear this next decade is going to be really really bad. Or status quo if you would.
What flavor is that Kool-Aid. Welly had zero acumen: when left to his own devices, he hired former players and drinking buddies. That's why George Young and the Rozelle agreement were put in place in the first place-turn football operations over to one guy who made the football decisions and keep the Maras out of it. What you saw in the two SB was the tail end of the Rozelle agreement.

Jawn started butting in when he wanted a SB in his new building. That meant Tisch got to weigh in also and decisions end up getting made by a committee. You see the results.
2013 wasn't the first losing season  
Section331 : 11/12/2019 9:55 am : link
of the TC era, he was 6-10 his first year. You can explain it away as TC wanting to get Eli experience, but you can't whitewash it from his record.
The drafts prior to Gettleman have been a disaster  
Rudy5757 : 11/12/2019 9:55 am : link
Very few players were worthy of a 2nd contract with the Giants and OBJ (Head Case) and now Engram (injury prone) will basically leave us with no one from the Reese era. You can blame ownership but this team lacks any legitimate talent up and down the roster.

We have 0 All Pros, 0 Pro Bowlers and no one on the path to the HOF including Barkley who is having a terrible stretch. Ownership has made errors of coarse but we are tied for the 6th most Superbowl victories in the league with 4.

For those admiring the Dallas Cowboys and their great OL, they havent been to the Superbowl in 23 years. Washington hasnt been in 27 years. the great KC Chiefs with the best QB in the league havent been to the Superbowl in 49 years. there are only 8 other teams that have been to the Superbowl since we last won, the other 23 teams have not.

There are plenty of teams that are in much worse situations than the Giants in terms of overall futility. We are in a terrible stretch but nowhere near most other teams in the league. I prefer championships over just making the playoffs any day of the week.
I genuinely think Shurmur will have to lose  
Oscar : 11/12/2019 9:56 am : link
Every remaining game to lose his job. Otherwise I expect Mara to shuffle coordinators but keep Shurmur around because he wants continuity with Jones.

It shouldn’t even be a consideration to keep the guy but I doubt Mara will entertain anything else. He’s a terrible owner. He’s not as cartoonishly evil and inept as Dolan, he’s not as transparently greedy as the Wilpons but he might be more ineffective. It’s a bad situation.
RE: RE: I know they had a few good years  
Zeke's Alibi : 11/12/2019 9:57 am : link
In comment 14676865 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 14676792 cjac said:


Quote:


after Wellington Mara passed, but his fingerprints were still all over the team. Coughlin/Eli Strahan etc...

Now that all that is gone and John Mara has been running this franchise for the past 15 years, i have no confidence that he has his fathers football acumen for knowing who are the right people to hire. I fear this next decade is going to be really really bad. Or status quo if you would.

What flavor is that Kool-Aid. Welly had zero acumen: when left to his own devices, he hired former players and drinking buddies. That's why George Young and the Rozelle agreement were put in place in the first place-turn football operations over to one guy who made the football decisions and keep the Maras out of it. What you saw in the two SB was the tail end of the Rozelle agreement.

Jawn started butting in when he wanted a SB in his new building. That meant Tisch got to weigh in also and decisions end up getting made by a committee. You see the results.


Cjac drinking some Jim Jones level koolaid there. The Mara's haven't been competent businessmen since Tim.
RE: RE: Love the personal  
ron mexico : 11/12/2019 9:58 am : link
In comment 14676836 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 14676793 section125 said:


Quote:


attacks...does a lot.



Seriously. We’re all frustrated with another losing season, but it says a lot about a poster’s character the way some people are reacting around here.

And we’re still waiting for someone to explain exactly what decisions Chris Mara has made vs the GM.


Can you tell me anything the guy has done?

The fact that there is two voices is the problem I have. I think it has led to all the 180s that has plagued this team. In my view they are not pulling in the same direction.

2018 try to compete with the roster we have only to start tear it down mid season

Sign OBJ to trade him less than a yer later

Bring Eli back to only play him two games


But to flip it around, why should Chris keep his job? What has he done in the past 5 years to help this organization?
The biggest mistake they made, IMO,  
Section331 : 11/12/2019 9:59 am : link
is going for it in 2013 when it was pretty clear that the roster was badly in need of an overhaul. All for a vanity project of hosting a SB they were playing in. That is John Mara in a nutshell, all appearance and no substance.
RE: It should have been all blown up in 2013  
Les in TO : 11/12/2019 9:59 am : link
In comment 14676857 Lambuth_Special said:
Quote:
Coughlin, Eli, Reese, Ross, etc. all gone.

The Superbowl run in 2011 masked a sustained period of mediocrity from 2009-2013, in which the Giants were only a combined six games above .500 for the regular season.

If you think this idea is crazy, well, this discussion was on the table here at BBI in 2013. There was measured debate about whether it made sense to cut ties with Eli, since the rebuilding process was likely to be painful and it would make more sense to do him a solid and send him to a better team in need of a QB, like the Texans.

Most of the criticism of Coughlin and Reese was in full swing by 2013 as well...The underwhelming second half-of-season performances, the poor roster construction, etc. The Giants just elected to remove Gilbride at the time.
if not after 2013, then definitely after 2015
RE: It should have been all blown up in 2013  
Dnew15 : 11/12/2019 10:00 am : link
In comment 14676857 Lambuth_Special said:
Quote:
Coughlin, Eli, Reese, Ross, etc. all gone.

The Superbowl run in 2011 masked a sustained period of mediocrity from 2009-2013, in which the Giants were only a combined six games above .500 for the regular season.

If you think this idea is crazy, well, this discussion was on the table here at BBI in 2013. There was measured debate about whether it made sense to cut ties with Eli, since the rebuilding process was likely to be painful and it would make more sense to do him a solid and send him to a better team in need of a QB, like the Texans.

Most of the criticism of Coughlin and Reese was in full swing by 2013 as well...The underwhelming second half-of-season performances, the poor roster construction, etc. The Giants just elected to remove Gilbride at the time.


I agree with this.
Add in the Eli magic come playoff time, the Giants just kept banking on the idea that if they could just sneak into the playoffs - they could make a run - and it worked twice.

It's just a hard model to bank on, and the NYG tried to for too long.
This is a fair take  
AcesUp : 11/12/2019 10:02 am : link
The "no balls" thing may be a little over the top but there's a clear pattern in his decision making. He doesn't even make decisions really, he makes compromises. Even that billion-dollar tin can of a stadium they built is the product of compromise.
RE: This is a fair take  
Ben in Tampa : 11/12/2019 10:04 am : link
In comment 14676890 AcesUp said:
Quote:
The "no balls" thing may be a little over the top but there's a clear pattern in his decision making. He doesn't even make decisions really, he makes compromises. Even that billion-dollar tin can of a stadium they built is the product of compromise.


That's a great comment. He's made compromises. Exactly that.
RE: RE: It should have been all blown up in 2013  
Lambuth_Special : 11/12/2019 10:08 am : link
In comment 14676884 Dnew15 said:
Quote:

I agree with this.
Add in the Eli magic come playoff time, the Giants just kept banking on the idea that if they could just sneak into the playoffs - they could make a run - and it worked twice.

It's just a hard model to bank on, and the NYG tried to for too long.


And little did they know that the "sneak into the playoffs" model that several teams rode from 2005-2012 (05' Steelers, 10' Packers, 12' Ravens in addition to both Giants teams) was crashing to an end. I think superbowl teams since 2012 have been 1 or 2 seeds.
Really hating myself for continuing  
mako J : 11/12/2019 10:19 am : link
To invest time reading this forum. I know the rabid frustrated "bbier" isn't indicative of all of Giants fans, but there isn't a single football thread that isn't littered with this garbage. Get a grip.

This forum wanted a young mobile quarterback. You got it.

This forum wanted the 3-4. You got it.

This forum wants vets benched and the youth to play yet loses their minds when games are lost because of the youth's growing pains. Can't handle failed coaching strategies built on the wildly inconsistent nature of playing the youth.

This forum demanded that Killdrive, then Old man Coughlin, then Jerry Reach and Mcadoodoo be fired and you got it. Now it's Dinosaur Dave and milquetoast Murmur and it's no balls half measure Mara. Shameful bunch of chicken littles had been begging for the blow up and now can't handle the climb back up.

I know I know, Dinosaur Dave and Murmur aren't capable of fielding and coaching a winner. If I can't see that by now, I don't know what I'm watching right?

If you are paying attention, every decision he made has one common  
Rjanyg : 11/12/2019 10:21 am : link
factor: Eli Manning

John said he will never forget the pain his father felt allowing Young to cut Phil Simms in 1994, right after a pro bowl season. The handed the reigns over to Dave Brown an well you know how that worked out.

Every decision that has been made is with the idea that Eli is part of the solution and not the problem, so fix everything else. Now Eli is on the bench making $23 Mill, we have $40 Mill in dead cap, but at least John Mara handled Eli better than Well handled Simms.

Things will be much different with Eli gone. And I am an Eli fan and think that this is just part of trying to preserve Eli's legacy after 2 Super Bowls.

Doe this make any sense?
My question is  
jcn56 : 11/12/2019 10:25 am : link
where does he go for advice? Who counseled him on all those half measures? Did he make them all himself, or does he have a sounding board?

I'm afraid all of these were bounced off Accorsi, and that he's still consigliere. The org desperately needs an outside voice.
RE: The drafts prior to Gettleman have been a disaster  
Platos : 11/12/2019 10:26 am : link
In comment 14676867 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:
Very few players were worthy of a 2nd contract with the Giants and OBJ (Head Case) and now Engram (injury prone) will basically leave us with no one from the Reese era. You can blame ownership but this team lacks any legitimate talent up and down the roster.

We have 0 All Pros, 0 Pro Bowlers and no one on the path to the HOF including Barkley who is having a terrible stretch. Ownership has made errors of coarse but we are tied for the 6th most Superbowl victories in the league with 4.

For those admiring the Dallas Cowboys and their great OL, they havent been to the Superbowl in 23 years. Washington hasnt been in 27 years. the great KC Chiefs with the best QB in the league havent been to the Superbowl in 49 years. there are only 8 other teams that have been to the Superbowl since we last won, the other 23 teams have not.

There are plenty of teams that are in much worse situations than the Giants in terms of overall futility. We are in a terrible stretch but nowhere near most other teams in the league. I prefer championships over just making the playoffs any day of the week.


this, seriously. how many reese drafts went by where not a single player made an impact? we at least see gettleman's guys in games. this year more than last obviously. Reese guys would be buried on the roster.
Yeah, Gettleman draftees are really making a big impact  
Greg from LI : 11/12/2019 10:28 am : link
That's why the team is 2-8.
back up the truck...  
trueblueinpw : 11/12/2019 10:47 am : link
Lombardi was saying about the Giants on GM Shuffle that the Giants are in the same place as the 9ers a few years back when Jed York turned the whole 9ers organization upside down and brought in entirely new people. This is what needs to happen with the Giants in my opinion too. Obviously the ownership won’t be changed and that’s okay because Giants ownership want to win. But the GM is lost and needs to be replaced along with everything and everyone under him. Turn over operations and all decision making to someone new. Seriously, all kidding aside, what’s the worst thing that can happen? The Giants are among the two to three worst teams in the NFL. A completely new regime may not get us back to the top but they couldn’t possibly be worse than the group running the Giants now.
RE: Really hating myself for continuing  
joeinpa : 11/12/2019 10:49 am : link
In comment 14676942 mako J said:
Quote:
To invest time reading this forum. I know the rabid frustrated "bbier" isn't indicative of all of Giants fans, but there isn't a single football thread that isn't littered with this garbage. Get a grip.

This forum wanted a young mobile quarterback. You got it.

This forum wanted the 3-4. You got it.

This forum wants vets benched and the youth to play yet loses their minds when games are lost because of the youth's growing pains. Can't handle failed coaching strategies built on the wildly inconsistent nature of playing the youth.

This forum demanded that Killdrive, then Old man Coughlin, then Jerry Reach and Mcadoodoo be fired and you got it. Now it's Dinosaur Dave and milquetoast Murmur and it's no balls half measure Mara. Shameful bunch of chicken littles had been begging for the blow up and now can't handle the climb back up.

I know I know, Dinosaur Dave and Murmur aren't capable of fielding and coaching a winner. If I can't see that by now, I don't know what I'm watching right?


Wow! That s a fantastic post
RE: Really hating myself for continuing  
Les in TO : 11/12/2019 10:56 am : link
In comment 14676942 mako J said:
Quote:
To invest time reading this forum. I know the rabid frustrated "bbier" isn't indicative of all of Giants fans, but there isn't a single football thread that isn't littered with this garbage. Get a grip.

This forum wanted a young mobile quarterback. You got it.

This forum wanted the 3-4. You got it.

This forum wants vets benched and the youth to play yet loses their minds when games are lost because of the youth's growing pains. Can't handle failed coaching strategies built on the wildly inconsistent nature of playing the youth.

This forum demanded that Killdrive, then Old man Coughlin, then Jerry Reach and Mcadoodoo be fired and you got it. Now it's Dinosaur Dave and milquetoast Murmur and it's no balls half measure Mara. Shameful bunch of chicken littles had been begging for the blow up and now can't handle the climb back up.

I know I know, Dinosaur Dave and Murmur aren't capable of fielding and coaching a winner. If I can't see that by now, I don't know what I'm watching right?
when you miss the playoffs 7/8 years and the season has been over by Halloween three straight years do you expect fans to be patient and happy? The team has become a punchline
RE: If you are paying attention, every decision he made has one common  
ron mexico : 11/12/2019 11:03 am : link
In comment 14676948 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
factor: Eli Manning

John said he will never forget the pain his father felt allowing Young to cut Phil Simms in 1994, right after a pro bowl season. The handed the reigns over to Dave Brown an well you know how that worked out.

Every decision that has been made is with the idea that Eli is part of the solution and not the problem, so fix everything else. Now Eli is on the bench making $23 Mill, we have $40 Mill in dead cap, but at least John Mara handled Eli better than Well handled Simms.

Things will be much different with Eli gone. And I am an Eli fan and think that this is just part of trying to preserve Eli's legacy after 2 Super Bowls.

Doe this make any sense?


the fact that he handled the end of Eli's career better than his father handled Simms is debatable.

But I agree with the rest of your post and perhaps not making moves with one player in mind will help the decision making process going forward. One can hope
I have said  
giantfan2000 : 11/12/2019 11:04 am : link
I have said over and over

the bad decisions of this franchise started when Chris Mara became Ex VP in 2011

and the best part is he can't get fired
RE: 2013 wasn't the first losing season  
HomerJones45 : 11/12/2019 11:06 am : link
In comment 14676866 Section331 said:
Quote:
of the TC era, he was 6-10 his first year. You can explain it away as TC wanting to get Eli experience, but you can't whitewash it from his record.
I'll be happy to explain it to you. Took over a 4-12 country club, went 6-10 the next year and 11-5 and playoffs the year after that.

Amazing what can be accomplished when there are people in the front office and the sidelines who know their business.
RE: RE: Love the personal  
section125 : 11/12/2019 11:08 am : link
In comment 14676802 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14676793 section125 said:


Quote:


attacks...does a lot.



???

We are discussing his job performance as the president of football operations, not making fun of his appearance




You are not discussing anything. Has "no balls" is not discussing performance. Just constant diatribes.

I do not disagree that we are seeing Well and Tim part deux in a way.

But "has no balls" is just plain stupid and does nothing to advance the "discussion."
Ohhhh, this explains it...  
.McL. : 11/12/2019 11:10 am : link
The Giants have been practicing with hockey pucks!
RE: Really hating myself for continuing  
Section331 : 11/12/2019 11:10 am : link
In comment 14676942 mako J said:
Quote:
To invest time reading this forum. I know the rabid frustrated "bbier" isn't indicative of all of Giants fans, but there isn't a single football thread that isn't littered with this garbage. Get a grip.

This forum wanted a young mobile quarterback. You got it.

This forum wanted the 3-4. You got it.

This forum wants vets benched and the youth to play yet loses their minds when games are lost because of the youth's growing pains. Can't handle failed coaching strategies built on the wildly inconsistent nature of playing the youth.

This forum demanded that Killdrive, then Old man Coughlin, then Jerry Reach and Mcadoodoo be fired and you got it. Now it's Dinosaur Dave and milquetoast Murmur and it's no balls half measure Mara. Shameful bunch of chicken littles had been begging for the blow up and now can't handle the climb back up.

I know I know, Dinosaur Dave and Murmur aren't capable of fielding and coaching a winner. If I can't see that by now, I don't know what I'm watching right?


Yes, because everyone on BBI agrees with everyone else. We're looking at 10 wins in 3 years, I can't imagine why fans would be upset.
RE: Really hating myself for continuing  
AcesUp : 11/12/2019 11:10 am : link
In comment 14676942 mako J said:
Quote:
To invest time reading this forum. I know the rabid frustrated "bbier" isn't indicative of all of Giants fans, but there isn't a single football thread that isn't littered with this garbage. Get a grip.

This forum wanted a young mobile quarterback. You got it.

This forum wanted the 3-4. You got it.

This forum wants vets benched and the youth to play yet loses their minds when games are lost because of the youth's growing pains. Can't handle failed coaching strategies built on the wildly inconsistent nature of playing the youth.

This forum demanded that Killdrive, then Old man Coughlin, then Jerry Reach and Mcadoodoo be fired and you got it. Now it's Dinosaur Dave and milquetoast Murmur and it's no balls half measure Mara. Shameful bunch of chicken littles had been begging for the blow up and now can't handle the climb back up.

I know I know, Dinosaur Dave and Murmur aren't capable of fielding and coaching a winner. If I can't see that by now, I don't know what I'm watching right?


This is bullshit dude. They've been bad for the better part of a decade and John Mara's decisions are largely responsible for that.

Regarding what's going on right now and my thoughts on Mara? I'll reserve judgement to see how he handles it. Firing Bettcher or even Shurmur this season while keeping DG would be repeating past mistakes. Especially if they go with a Garrett or McCarthy type as his replacement.
I'm leaning more towards flushing the whole thing (DG gets a pass for his mistake while Shurmur "has to go" for some reason) but I'd respect Mara more if he stays the course for another season entirely with both HC and GM intact than go piecemeal scapegoating he's exhibited since Gilbride.
RE: RE: 2013 wasn't the first losing season  
Section331 : 11/12/2019 11:15 am : link
In comment 14677094 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:

I'll be happy to explain it to you. Took over a 4-12 country club, went 6-10 the next year and 11-5 and playoffs the year after that.

Amazing what can be accomplished when there are people in the front office and the sidelines who know their business.


Sorry if it appeared that I was criticizing your hero Homer, but I was just pointing out a fact. And as far as 2003 goes, losing 50 games to injury might have had something to do with that 4-12 record.
RE: RE: The drafts prior to Gettleman have been a disaster  
.McL. : 11/12/2019 11:20 am : link
In comment 14676971 Platos said:
Quote:

this, seriously. how many reese drafts went by where not a single player made an impact? we at least see gettleman's guys in games. this year more than last obviously. Reese guys would be buried on the roster.


You are kidding right? You have to be...

I mean Gettlemean got rid of almost everybody prior to him being here. Here who is left
Eli Manning
Wayne Gallman
Sterling Shepard
Evan Engram
Rhett Ellison
Dalvin Tomlinson
Janoris Jenkins
Aldrick Rojas
Zak DeOssie

The team has no choice but to put Gettleman's guys in. Just because they are seeing time doesn't mean they are any good. If they were any good this team would be winning football games. With the exception of the 5 first and second round picks, and D Slayton, the rest are JAGs. (Connolly gets a pass, but now his future is uncertain because of injury)
RE: My question is  
HomerJones45 : 11/12/2019 11:21 am : link
In comment 14676969 jcn56 said:
Quote:
where does he go for advice? Who counseled him on all those half measures? Did he make them all himself, or does he have a sounding board?

I'm afraid all of these were bounced off Accorsi, and that he's still consigliere. The org desperately needs an outside voice.
It's the weakness of the organizational structure and why you can't have co-owners involved in football operations. Co-owner 1 sticks his nose into Football Operations so Co-owner 2 wants to stick his nose in too. Then add the GM. Now you've got a committee of three involved in football operations. (a/k/a the "Giants Way"). Everyone has an opinion, everyone has their logic and everyone has a position. So you have to come up with a compromise if there is no agreement. If Accorsi is dragged in, it's by one or the other of the owners looking to balance a 2-1 situation. We have seen that before.
Mcadoo and Shemur  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 11/12/2019 11:23 am : link
should have been obviously poor HC choices in the interview process. Two motivational HoF HCs brought us 4 SBs, and then you choose two gee wiz playcard in my face system weenie finesse WCO HCs??? What exactly is the criteria Mara/Tisch are looking for in a HC?
RE: If you are paying attention, every decision he made has one common  
lax counsel : 11/12/2019 11:25 am : link
In comment 14676948 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
factor: Eli Manning

John said he will never forget the pain his father felt allowing Young to cut Phil Simms in 1994, right after a pro bowl season. The handed the reigns over to Dave Brown an well you know how that worked out.

Every decision that has been made is with the idea that Eli is part of the solution and not the problem, so fix everything else. Now Eli is on the bench making $23 Mill, we have $40 Mill in dead cap, but at least John Mara handled Eli better than Well handled Simms.

Things will be much different with Eli gone. And I am an Eli fan and think that this is just part of trying to preserve Eli's legacy after 2 Super Bowls.

Doe this make any sense?


Bingo, we have a winner. Nearly every decision that has been made from 2013 until the end of week 2 this year was about Eli. First it was continuity for Eli, then finding a regime that would accommodate Eli, despite the fact that it was clear he was near done after the 2017 season. T

Of course the usuals will come and blast anyone espousing this sentiment for daring the read the circumstantial evidence.
It's all Eli's fault  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 11/12/2019 11:29 am : link
and his lack of TOs, SB getting 2000 yards, 6 and 8 sacks a game against Jets and Cards, 90+ passer rating, and highest scoring offense in the NFC East.
RE: RE: RE: 2013 wasn't the first losing season  
HomerJones45 : 11/12/2019 11:33 am : link
In comment 14677110 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 14677094 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:



I'll be happy to explain it to you. Took over a 4-12 country club, went 6-10 the next year and 11-5 and playoffs the year after that.

Amazing what can be accomplished when there are people in the front office and the sidelines who know their business.



Sorry if it appeared that I was criticizing your hero Homer, but I was just pointing out a fact. And as far as 2003 goes, losing 50 games to injury might have had something to do with that 4-12 record.
I'm not going to re-litigate the Fassel tenure, and I have no problem with a coach who one of 13 ever to hoist two Lombardis and is going to the HOF. You evidently do.

I hope you are enjoying this new era of Giants football; joepa's post about having everything happen the way you wanted it and not being happy with the result sent the spear flying into your chest.
It's not Eli's fault, it wasn't TC's fault  
Dnew15 : 11/12/2019 11:49 am : link
I don't even blame Reece, MacAdoo, DG or PS...It wasn't anybodies fault.

It's damn near impossible to sustain the level of success the Giants did when Eli was in his prime and TC was a major part of that success.

In a 8 year stretch from 2005-2012 the NYG never had a losing season, made the playoffs 5 times and won the SB twice.

That's a stretch that few coaches, QBs or franchises have ever had.

Of course, just like with every NFL franchise that has gone through stretches of success like this, things change.

Players come off their primes, teams get old all at once, GMs make decisions that miss, unexpected events take place (like injuries), the HC's message isn't as strong as it once was and his influence over the team wanes, and then new HC come in and aren't as effective as management hoped.

It's all cyclical for every team...except, seemingly, the NE Patriots.
RE: I have said  
Les in TO : 11/12/2019 11:51 am : link
In comment 14677089 giantfan2000 said:
Quote:
I have said over and over

the bad decisions of this franchise started when Chris Mara became Ex VP in 2011

and the best part is he can't get fired
does he really have influence though when it comes to key decisions?
Mara is fair game  
Thegratefulhead : 11/12/2019 11:52 am : link
He puts on his big boy pants every day. The man at the top cannot hide from poor performance. It is always his/her fault. Can take it? sell.
RE: RE: Really hating myself for continuing  
Zeke's Alibi : 11/12/2019 11:59 am : link
In comment 14677101 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 14676942 mako J said:


Quote:

This forum demanded that Killdrive, then Old man Coughlin, then Jerry Reach and Mcadoodoo be fired and you got it. Now it's Dinosaur Dave and milquetoast Murmur and it's no balls half measure Mara. Shameful bunch of chicken littles had been begging for the blow up and now can't handle the climb back up.

I know I know, Dinosaur Dave and Murmur aren't capable of fielding and coaching a winner. If I can't see that by now, I don't know what I'm watching right?




Yes, because everyone on BBI agrees with everyone else. We're looking at 10 wins in 3 years, I can't imagine why fans would be upset.


When did we blow it up? We didn't, its exactly why we people are calling him half measure Mara. And if you can't see that PS is a loser of a head coach I don't know what to tell you.

This is the most negative I've been about this orginization ever and its mostly because PS is such a blindingly obvious bad coach that if we bring him back in 2020 I'll have zero faith in this orginization and Mara moving forward. If its true DG is stumping for him because he doesn't challenge his authority, which wouldn't surprise me, he can go to. And this is coming from someone that wanted him back in 2020 before the season regardless of what happened and expected about 6/7 wins.

I'm preemptively pissed at Mara because we already have a playbook what hes going to do, keep the HC and fire the coordinators. One problem in that plan is Shurmur sucks and he isn't TC. If you give him a talented roster he will find ways to lose games. It wouldn't even shock me if we make playoffs next year with him helming the ship, but he is never winning a SB. Bad coaches don't do that, occassionaly a mediocre one sneaks in, but not bad ones.
RE: RE: I have said  
ron mexico : 11/12/2019 12:02 pm : link
In comment 14677180 Les in TO said:
Quote:
In comment 14677089 giantfan2000 said:


Quote:


I have said over and over

the bad decisions of this franchise started when Chris Mara became Ex VP in 2011

and the best part is he can't get fired

does he really have influence though when it comes to key decisions?


either he is making bad decisions or doing nothing at all.

Either way not much of a case to keep him around.

Remember he was there every step of the way in a position of authority when Reese and Ross were dismantling the team.
Is Chris Mara that really involved...  
BillKo : 11/12/2019 12:18 pm : link
...or simply a title/figurehead?

I mean, sure he can make recommendations, but is DG really using that information??
RE: Kinda tired of this Mara narrative  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/12/2019 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14676843 exiled said:
Quote:
There are so, so many assumptions on this board about the front office. BBI posters throw them around as facts. (Mara insisted on starting Eli, the ‘giants way’ overriding decisions, loyalty issues, etc.) I think we have very little insight into what goes on in the front office.

It’s been a crappy stretch, I get it. But I think there was one main bad decision that’s been far-reaching: keeping Reese too long. His team building and player assessments sucked, we’ve been living with the consequences ever since. (Even then, I understand why Mara trusted him in that role, given the two championships.) Everything else has sprung from that.

Believing that Mara was the one insisting on keeping Eli is the only thing stopping the fanbase from fully eviscerating DG. He's made a lot of questionable decisions, chief among them attempting to build around Eli rather than begin the rebuild immediately upon arrival. If that was at Mara's insistence, it's disappointing but forgivable. If it was based on Gettleman's own self-assessment of the roster, then we actually downgraded from Reese.
RE: Really hating myself for continuing  
aimrocky : 11/12/2019 12:59 pm : link
In comment 14676942 mako J said:
Quote:
To invest time reading this forum. I know the rabid frustrated "bbier" isn't indicative of all of Giants fans, but there isn't a single football thread that isn't littered with this garbage. Get a grip.

This forum wanted a young mobile quarterback. You got it.

This forum wanted the 3-4. You got it.

This forum wants vets benched and the youth to play yet loses their minds when games are lost because of the youth's growing pains. Can't handle failed coaching strategies built on the wildly inconsistent nature of playing the youth.

This forum demanded that Killdrive, then Old man Coughlin, then Jerry Reach and Mcadoodoo be fired and you got it. Now it's Dinosaur Dave and milquetoast Murmur and it's no balls half measure Mara. Shameful bunch of chicken littles had been begging for the blow up and now can't handle the climb back up.

I know I know, Dinosaur Dave and Murmur aren't capable of fielding and coaching a winner. If I can't see that by now, I don't know what I'm watching right?


Excellent post. Everytime Shurmur makes a boneheaded move, I send a text to my buddy, who would fit in really well around here, "hey, are you still happy Coughlin and Gilbride are gone?"
This is all bullshit  
NikkiMac : 11/12/2019 1:01 pm : link
Many QBs have had new coaches in their second year stop babying Jones and Fire Shurmur right after the loss to the Dolphins which is coming up
Continuity shmontinuety Fire this inept stubborn coach !!!!!
Not a question of balls  
jeff57 : 11/12/2019 1:06 pm : link
Seems more a question of brains
This has always been a tank year  
Paulie Walnuts : 11/12/2019 1:09 pm : link
No matter what the team said... that being said, I wanted some progress .. Gettleman ain't going anywhere 2020 is his make season we improve or they fire him Murmur is another story born loser
RE: It should have been all blown up in 2013  
japanhead : 11/12/2019 1:12 pm : link
In comment 14676857 Lambuth_Special said:
Quote:
Coughlin, Eli, Reese, Ross, etc. all gone.

The Superbowl run in 2011 masked a sustained period of mediocrity from 2009-2013, in which the Giants were only a combined six games above .500 for the regular season.

If you think this idea is crazy, well, this discussion was on the table here at BBI in 2013. There was measured debate about whether it made sense to cut ties with Eli, since the rebuilding process was likely to be painful and it would make more sense to do him a solid and send him to a better team in need of a QB, like the Texans.

Most of the criticism of Coughlin and Reese was in full swing by 2013 as well...The underwhelming second half-of-season performances, the poor roster construction, etc. The Giants just elected to remove Gilbride at the time.


sustained period of mediocrity from 09-13? they were 8-8 in '09, 10-6 in '10 (missed playoffs, barely), 9-7 wildcard/SB champs in '11 and 9-7 missed playoffs in '12 after nicks went down. the wheels fell off in 2013, sure, but all of the teams prior to that season were competitive. it is understandable that mara would give coughlin/reese a chance to turn things around. he decisions since 2017 have been disasterous, sure, but i don't knock him for sticking w/ coughlin and reese for a few more years after their second SB win in five years.
RE: RE: Really hating myself for continuing  
Scooter185 : 11/12/2019 1:13 pm : link
In comment 14677312 aimrocky said:
Quote:
In comment 14676942 mako J said:


Quote:


To invest time reading this forum. I know the rabid frustrated "bbier" isn't indicative of all of Giants fans, but there isn't a single football thread that isn't littered with this garbage. Get a grip.

This forum wanted a young mobile quarterback. You got it.

This forum wanted the 3-4. You got it.

This forum wants vets benched and the youth to play yet loses their minds when games are lost because of the youth's growing pains. Can't handle failed coaching strategies built on the wildly inconsistent nature of playing the youth.

This forum demanded that Killdrive, then Old man Coughlin, then Jerry Reach and Mcadoodoo be fired and you got it. Now it's Dinosaur Dave and milquetoast Murmur and it's no balls half measure Mara. Shameful bunch of chicken littles had been begging for the blow up and now can't handle the climb back up.

I know I know, Dinosaur Dave and Murmur aren't capable of fielding and coaching a winner. If I can't see that by now, I don't know what I'm watching right?




Excellent post. Everytime Shurmur makes a boneheaded move, I send a text to my buddy, who would fit in really well around here, "hey, are you still happy Coughlin and Gilbride are gone?"


It was absolutely the correct time to move on from TC. However every decision since then has been garbage. They needed an outside voice then to take over. Instead we got retreads and people "they're comfortable with" who have done nothing but drive the franchise further into the ground.
Mara, GMs and Eli: Setting Lousy Expectations  
DeepBlueJint : 11/12/2019 3:18 pm : link
Doesn't Eli have a no trade clause in his contract? Did he have it in 2013? Was his compensation up there even back in 2013?

I don't understand this "marble in the can" about getting rid of Eli as far back as 2013. Seems it was impractical if not impossible then as it was in 2018.

Regardless, Mara and the GMs have done an incredibly lousy job bringing in a top notch coaching staff and rebuilding this team despite Eli Manning on the team.

And that is despite the last two drafts by the current GM. His FAs generally have not been any good.

Lousy job of setting expectations with the media and the fans.
RE: Really hating myself for continuing  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/12/2019 3:44 pm : link
In comment 14676942 mako J said:
Quote:
To invest time reading this forum. I know the rabid frustrated "bbier" isn't indicative of all of Giants fans, but there isn't a single football thread that isn't littered with this garbage. Get a grip.

This forum wanted a young mobile quarterback. You got it.

This forum wanted the 3-4. You got it.

This forum wants vets benched and the youth to play yet loses their minds when games are lost because of the youth's growing pains. Can't handle failed coaching strategies built on the wildly inconsistent nature of playing the youth.

This forum demanded that Killdrive, then Old man Coughlin, then Jerry Reach and Mcadoodoo be fired and you got it. Now it's Dinosaur Dave and milquetoast Murmur and it's no balls half measure Mara. Shameful bunch of chicken littles had been begging for the blow up and now can't handle the climb back up.

I know I know, Dinosaur Dave and Murmur aren't capable of fielding and coaching a winner. If I can't see that by now, I don't know what I'm watching right?


I don't believe it's that people can't handle the climb back up, it's just a fundamental disagreement with how the climb back up has been attempted thus far. They're old and have no young prospects at some critical positions, and they throw big money at over-30 players.

For all the talk about rebuilding the offensive line, the tackles are two old, fading veterans. The center is a never-was.

They attempted to fix one of the safety spots with "ageless" antoine bethea and had no young player to compete for the job.

The head coach they're trusting to rebuild a program hasn't won anywhere.
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