John Mara has no balls: the thread

as a main decision maker

after Wellington Mara passed, but his fingerprints were still all over the team. Coughlin/Eli Strahan etc...

Now that all that is gone and John Mara has been running this franchise for the past 15 years, i have no confidence that he has his fathers football acumen for knowing who are the right people to hire. I fear this next decade is going to be really really bad. Or status quo if you would.

attacks...does a lot.

End of the day it boils down to ownership

And they own :

-Letting Reese & co let the apple rot to the core for too many years

-Hiring the wrong coaches

-Hiring Dinosaur DAve. Jury's out and I was OK with him initially but his Hog Molly noise leaves me with a bad taste. If that was the focus he has so underdelivered.

We aren't changing ownership so need to pray that 8 years of lackluster performance is enough and they can change their approach to running a team

In comment 14676793 section125 said:

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attacks...does a lot.

???

We are discussing his job performance as the president of football operations, not making fun of his appearance

The problems start with the owners. If they can't make good decisions they need to hire a President or Head of Football Operations, whatever you want to call it, and let them build a winner.

I was totally against bringing back Gettleman but i'm not as down on him. Shurmur just reminds me of the oatmeal on a low end hotel's continental breakfast, BORING and BLAND!

If Gettleman was the GM during the Coughlin years it would have been different in my opinion.

You saw the stats detailing the roster during the Reese years. We had only 4 players out of 53 that we drafted still on the team. WORST IN THE LEAGUE....HORRIBLE!!!!

In comment 14676805 nzyme said:

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If Gettleman was the GM during the Coughlin years it would have been different in my opinion. You saw the stats detailing the roster during the Reese years. We had only 4 players out of 53 that we drafted still on the team. WORST IN THE LEAGUE....HORRIBLE!!!!

Agree. The state of this team is directly related to their pitiful drafting over the last decade. Yup, worst in the league.

just saying.....

In comment 14676809 JohnB said:

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just saying.....

You cant give him credit for 2007, that was all his father

In comment 14676793 section125 said:

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attacks...does a lot.

Seriously. We’re all frustrated with another losing season, but it says a lot about a poster’s character the way some people are reacting around here.

And we’re still waiting for someone to explain exactly what decisions Chris Mara has made vs the GM.

Primary issue has been his selection of coaches since Coughlin. McAdoo and Shurmur were both terrible choices, guys who could coordinate an offense but not be the boss.

In comment 14676805 nzyme said:

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If Gettleman was the GM during the Coughlin years it would have been different in my opinion.

baaaahahahahahaha....yeah, Mr. Magoo's personnel decisions have been just aces, haven't they?

There are so, so many assumptions on this board about the front office. BBI posters throw them around as facts. (Mara insisted on starting Eli, the ‘giants way’ overriding decisions, loyalty issues, etc.) I think we have very little insight into what goes on in the front office.

It’s been a crappy stretch, I get it. But I think there was one main bad decision that’s been far-reaching: keeping Reese too long. His team building and player assessments sucked, we’ve been living with the consequences ever since. (Even then, I understand why Mara trusted him in that role, given the two championships.) Everything else has sprung from that.

some of you will still be whining about Jerry Reese.

This is Dave Gettleman's team now lock stock and barrel, and it fucking sucks.

He can't make a wholesale change.

It wasn't Coughlin it was the Assistants, it wasn't Reese it was Coughlin, Eli is still the answer just without McAdoo, Need to draft a new franchise QB but still keep Eli...

He hasn't been able to say "You are all world champions, thank you, we'll never forget you. Time to move on"

Coughlin, Eli, Reese, Ross, etc. all gone.

The Superbowl run in 2011 masked a sustained period of mediocrity from 2009-2013, in which the Giants were only a combined six games above .500 for the regular season.

If you think this idea is crazy, well, this discussion was on the table here at BBI in 2013. There was measured debate about whether it made sense to cut ties with Eli, since the rebuilding process was likely to be painful and it would make more sense to do him a solid and send him to a better team in need of a QB, like the Texans.

Most of the criticism of Coughlin and Reese was in full swing by 2013 as well...The underwhelming second half-of-season performances, the poor roster construction, etc. The Giants just elected to remove Gilbride at the time.

In comment 14676792 cjac said:

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after Wellington Mara passed, but his fingerprints were still all over the team. Coughlin/Eli Strahan etc... Now that all that is gone and John Mara has been running this franchise for the past 15 years, i have no confidence that he has his fathers football acumen for knowing who are the right people to hire. I fear this next decade is going to be really really bad. Or status quo if you would.

What flavor is that Kool-Aid. Welly had zero acumen: when left to his own devices, he hired former players and drinking buddies. That's why George Young and the Rozelle agreement were put in place in the first place-turn football operations over to one guy who made the football decisions and keep the Maras out of it. What you saw in the two SB was the tail end of the Rozelle agreement.

Jawn started butting in when he wanted a SB in his new building. That meant Tisch got to weigh in also and decisions end up getting made by a committee. You see the results.

of the TC era, he was 6-10 his first year. You can explain it away as TC wanting to get Eli experience, but you can't whitewash it from his record.

Very few players were worthy of a 2nd contract with the Giants and OBJ (Head Case) and now Engram (injury prone) will basically leave us with no one from the Reese era. You can blame ownership but this team lacks any legitimate talent up and down the roster.

We have 0 All Pros, 0 Pro Bowlers and no one on the path to the HOF including Barkley who is having a terrible stretch. Ownership has made errors of coarse but we are tied for the 6th most Superbowl victories in the league with 4.

For those admiring the Dallas Cowboys and their great OL, they havent been to the Superbowl in 23 years. Washington hasnt been in 27 years. the great KC Chiefs with the best QB in the league havent been to the Superbowl in 49 years. there are only 8 other teams that have been to the Superbowl since we last won, the other 23 teams have not.

There are plenty of teams that are in much worse situations than the Giants in terms of overall futility. We are in a terrible stretch but nowhere near most other teams in the league. I prefer championships over just making the playoffs any day of the week.

Every remaining game to lose his job. Otherwise I expect Mara to shuffle coordinators but keep Shurmur around because he wants continuity with Jones.

It shouldn’t even be a consideration to keep the guy but I doubt Mara will entertain anything else. He’s a terrible owner. He’s not as cartoonishly evil and inept as Dolan, he’s not as transparently greedy as the Wilpons but he might be more ineffective. It’s a bad situation.

In comment 14676865 HomerJones45 said:

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In comment 14676792 cjac said: Quote: after Wellington Mara passed, but his fingerprints were still all over the team. Coughlin/Eli Strahan etc... Now that all that is gone and John Mara has been running this franchise for the past 15 years, i have no confidence that he has his fathers football acumen for knowing who are the right people to hire. I fear this next decade is going to be really really bad. Or status quo if you would. What flavor is that Kool-Aid. Welly had zero acumen: when left to his own devices, he hired former players and drinking buddies. That's why George Young and the Rozelle agreement were put in place in the first place-turn football operations over to one guy who made the football decisions and keep the Maras out of it. What you saw in the two SB was the tail end of the Rozelle agreement. Jawn started butting in when he wanted a SB in his new building. That meant Tisch got to weigh in also and decisions end up getting made by a committee. You see the results.

Cjac drinking some Jim Jones level koolaid there. The Mara's haven't been competent businessmen since Tim.

In comment 14676836 mfsd said:

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In comment 14676793 section125 said: Quote: attacks...does a lot. Seriously. We’re all frustrated with another losing season, but it says a lot about a poster’s character the way some people are reacting around here. And we’re still waiting for someone to explain exactly what decisions Chris Mara has made vs the GM.

Can you tell me anything the guy has done?

The fact that there is two voices is the problem I have. I think it has led to all the 180s that has plagued this team. In my view they are not pulling in the same direction.

2018 try to compete with the roster we have only to start tear it down mid season

Sign OBJ to trade him less than a yer later

Bring Eli back to only play him two games


But to flip it around, why should Chris keep his job? What has he done in the past 5 years to help this organization?

is going for it in 2013 when it was pretty clear that the roster was badly in need of an overhaul. All for a vanity project of hosting a SB they were playing in. That is John Mara in a nutshell, all appearance and no substance.

In comment 14676857 Lambuth_Special said:

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Coughlin, Eli, Reese, Ross, etc. all gone. The Superbowl run in 2011 masked a sustained period of mediocrity from 2009-2013, in which the Giants were only a combined six games above .500 for the regular season. If you think this idea is crazy, well, this discussion was on the table here at BBI in 2013. There was measured debate about whether it made sense to cut ties with Eli, since the rebuilding process was likely to be painful and it would make more sense to do him a solid and send him to a better team in need of a QB, like the Texans. Most of the criticism of Coughlin and Reese was in full swing by 2013 as well...The underwhelming second half-of-season performances, the poor roster construction, etc. The Giants just elected to remove Gilbride at the time.

if not after 2013, then definitely after 2015

In comment 14676857 Lambuth_Special said:

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Coughlin, Eli, Reese, Ross, etc. all gone. The Superbowl run in 2011 masked a sustained period of mediocrity from 2009-2013, in which the Giants were only a combined six games above .500 for the regular season. If you think this idea is crazy, well, this discussion was on the table here at BBI in 2013. There was measured debate about whether it made sense to cut ties with Eli, since the rebuilding process was likely to be painful and it would make more sense to do him a solid and send him to a better team in need of a QB, like the Texans. Most of the criticism of Coughlin and Reese was in full swing by 2013 as well...The underwhelming second half-of-season performances, the poor roster construction, etc. The Giants just elected to remove Gilbride at the time.

I agree with this.
Add in the Eli magic come playoff time, the Giants just kept banking on the idea that if they could just sneak into the playoffs - they could make a run - and it worked twice.

It's just a hard model to bank on, and the NYG tried to for too long.

The "no balls" thing may be a little over the top but there's a clear pattern in his decision making. He doesn't even make decisions really, he makes compromises. Even that billion-dollar tin can of a stadium they built is the product of compromise.

In comment 14676890 AcesUp said:

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The "no balls" thing may be a little over the top but there's a clear pattern in his decision making. He doesn't even make decisions really, he makes compromises. Even that billion-dollar tin can of a stadium they built is the product of compromise.

That's a great comment. He's made compromises. Exactly that.

In comment 14676884 Dnew15 said:

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I agree with this. Add in the Eli magic come playoff time, the Giants just kept banking on the idea that if they could just sneak into the playoffs - they could make a run - and it worked twice. It's just a hard model to bank on, and the NYG tried to for too long.

And little did they know that the "sneak into the playoffs" model that several teams rode from 2005-2012 (05' Steelers, 10' Packers, 12' Ravens in addition to both Giants teams) was crashing to an end. I think superbowl teams since 2012 have been 1 or 2 seeds.

To invest time reading this forum. I know the rabid frustrated "bbier" isn't indicative of all of Giants fans, but there isn't a single football thread that isn't littered with this garbage. Get a grip.

This forum wanted a young mobile quarterback. You got it.

This forum wanted the 3-4. You got it.

This forum wants vets benched and the youth to play yet loses their minds when games are lost because of the youth's growing pains. Can't handle failed coaching strategies built on the wildly inconsistent nature of playing the youth.

This forum demanded that Killdrive, then Old man Coughlin, then Jerry Reach and Mcadoodoo be fired and you got it. Now it's Dinosaur Dave and milquetoast Murmur and it's no balls half measure Mara. Shameful bunch of chicken littles had been begging for the blow up and now can't handle the climb back up.

I know I know, Dinosaur Dave and Murmur aren't capable of fielding and coaching a winner. If I can't see that by now, I don't know what I'm watching right?

factor: Eli Manning

John said he will never forget the pain his father felt allowing Young to cut Phil Simms in 1994, right after a pro bowl season. The handed the reigns over to Dave Brown an well you know how that worked out.

Every decision that has been made is with the idea that Eli is part of the solution and not the problem, so fix everything else. Now Eli is on the bench making $23 Mill, we have $40 Mill in dead cap, but at least John Mara handled Eli better than Well handled Simms.

Things will be much different with Eli gone. And I am an Eli fan and think that this is just part of trying to preserve Eli's legacy after 2 Super Bowls.

Doe this make any sense?

where does he go for advice? Who counseled him on all those half measures? Did he make them all himself, or does he have a sounding board?

I'm afraid all of these were bounced off Accorsi, and that he's still consigliere. The org desperately needs an outside voice.

In comment 14676867 Rudy5757 said:

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Very few players were worthy of a 2nd contract with the Giants and OBJ (Head Case) and now Engram (injury prone) will basically leave us with no one from the Reese era. You can blame ownership but this team lacks any legitimate talent up and down the roster. We have 0 All Pros, 0 Pro Bowlers and no one on the path to the HOF including Barkley who is having a terrible stretch. Ownership has made errors of coarse but we are tied for the 6th most Superbowl victories in the league with 4. For those admiring the Dallas Cowboys and their great OL, they havent been to the Superbowl in 23 years. Washington hasnt been in 27 years. the great KC Chiefs with the best QB in the league havent been to the Superbowl in 49 years. there are only 8 other teams that have been to the Superbowl since we last won, the other 23 teams have not. There are plenty of teams that are in much worse situations than the Giants in terms of overall futility. We are in a terrible stretch but nowhere near most other teams in the league. I prefer championships over just making the playoffs any day of the week.

this, seriously. how many reese drafts went by where not a single player made an impact? we at least see gettleman's guys in games. this year more than last obviously. Reese guys would be buried on the roster.

That's why the team is 2-8.

Lombardi was saying about the Giants on GM Shuffle that the Giants are in the same place as the 9ers a few years back when Jed York turned the whole 9ers organization upside down and brought in entirely new people. This is what needs to happen with the Giants in my opinion too. Obviously the ownership won’t be changed and that’s okay because Giants ownership want to win. But the GM is lost and needs to be replaced along with everything and everyone under him. Turn over operations and all decision making to someone new. Seriously, all kidding aside, what’s the worst thing that can happen? The Giants are among the two to three worst teams in the NFL. A completely new regime may not get us back to the top but they couldn’t possibly be worse than the group running the Giants now.

In comment 14676942 mako J said:

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To invest time reading this forum. I know the rabid frustrated "bbier" isn't indicative of all of Giants fans, but there isn't a single football thread that isn't littered with this garbage. Get a grip. This forum wanted a young mobile quarterback. You got it. This forum wanted the 3-4. You got it. This forum wants vets benched and the youth to play yet loses their minds when games are lost because of the youth's growing pains. Can't handle failed coaching strategies built on the wildly inconsistent nature of playing the youth. This forum demanded that Killdrive, then Old man Coughlin, then Jerry Reach and Mcadoodoo be fired and you got it. Now it's Dinosaur Dave and milquetoast Murmur and it's no balls half measure Mara. Shameful bunch of chicken littles had been begging for the blow up and now can't handle the climb back up. I know I know, Dinosaur Dave and Murmur aren't capable of fielding and coaching a winner. If I can't see that by now, I don't know what I'm watching right?

Wow! That s a fantastic post

In comment 14676942 mako J said:

Quote:

To invest time reading this forum. I know the rabid frustrated "bbier" isn't indicative of all of Giants fans, but there isn't a single football thread that isn't littered with this garbage. Get a grip. This forum wanted a young mobile quarterback. You got it. This forum wanted the 3-4. You got it. This forum wants vets benched and the youth to play yet loses their minds when games are lost because of the youth's growing pains. Can't handle failed coaching strategies built on the wildly inconsistent nature of playing the youth. This forum demanded that Killdrive, then Old man Coughlin, then Jerry Reach and Mcadoodoo be fired and you got it. Now it's Dinosaur Dave and milquetoast Murmur and it's no balls half measure Mara. Shameful bunch of chicken littles had been begging for the blow up and now can't handle the climb back up. I know I know, Dinosaur Dave and Murmur aren't capable of fielding and coaching a winner. If I can't see that by now, I don't know what I'm watching right?

when you miss the playoffs 7/8 years and the season has been over by Halloween three straight years do you expect fans to be patient and happy? The team has become a punchline

In comment 14676948 Rjanyg said:

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factor: Eli Manning John said he will never forget the pain his father felt allowing Young to cut Phil Simms in 1994, right after a pro bowl season. The handed the reigns over to Dave Brown an well you know how that worked out. Every decision that has been made is with the idea that Eli is part of the solution and not the problem, so fix everything else. Now Eli is on the bench making $23 Mill, we have $40 Mill in dead cap, but at least John Mara handled Eli better than Well handled Simms. Things will be much different with Eli gone. And I am an Eli fan and think that this is just part of trying to preserve Eli's legacy after 2 Super Bowls. Doe this make any sense?

the fact that he handled the end of Eli's career better than his father handled Simms is debatable.

But I agree with the rest of your post and perhaps not making moves with one player in mind will help the decision making process going forward. One can hope

I have said over and over

the bad decisions of this franchise started when Chris Mara became Ex VP in 2011

and the best part is he can't get fired

In comment 14676866 Section331 said:

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of the TC era, he was 6-10 his first year. You can explain it away as TC wanting to get Eli experience, but you can't whitewash it from his record.

I'll be happy to explain it to you. Took over a 4-12 country club, went 6-10 the next year and 11-5 and playoffs the year after that.

Amazing what can be accomplished when there are people in the front office and the sidelines who know their business.

In comment 14676802 ron mexico said:

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In comment 14676793 section125 said: Quote: attacks...does a lot. ??? We are discussing his job performance as the president of football operations, not making fun of his appearance

You are not discussing anything. Has "no balls" is not discussing performance. Just constant diatribes.

I do not disagree that we are seeing Well and Tim part deux in a way.

But "has no balls" is just plain stupid and does nothing to advance the "discussion."

The Giants have been practicing with hockey pucks!

In comment 14676942 mako J said:

Quote:

To invest time reading this forum. I know the rabid frustrated "bbier" isn't indicative of all of Giants fans, but there isn't a single football thread that isn't littered with this garbage. Get a grip. This forum wanted a young mobile quarterback. You got it. This forum wanted the 3-4. You got it. This forum wants vets benched and the youth to play yet loses their minds when games are lost because of the youth's growing pains. Can't handle failed coaching strategies built on the wildly inconsistent nature of playing the youth. This forum demanded that Killdrive, then Old man Coughlin, then Jerry Reach and Mcadoodoo be fired and you got it. Now it's Dinosaur Dave and milquetoast Murmur and it's no balls half measure Mara. Shameful bunch of chicken littles had been begging for the blow up and now can't handle the climb back up. I know I know, Dinosaur Dave and Murmur aren't capable of fielding and coaching a winner. If I can't see that by now, I don't know what I'm watching right?

Yes, because everyone on BBI agrees with everyone else. We're looking at 10 wins in 3 years, I can't imagine why fans would be upset.

In comment 14676942 mako J said:

Quote:

To invest time reading this forum. I know the rabid frustrated "bbier" isn't indicative of all of Giants fans, but there isn't a single football thread that isn't littered with this garbage. Get a grip. This forum wanted a young mobile quarterback. You got it. This forum wanted the 3-4. You got it. This forum wants vets benched and the youth to play yet loses their minds when games are lost because of the youth's growing pains. Can't handle failed coaching strategies built on the wildly inconsistent nature of playing the youth. This forum demanded that Killdrive, then Old man Coughlin, then Jerry Reach and Mcadoodoo be fired and you got it. Now it's Dinosaur Dave and milquetoast Murmur and it's no balls half measure Mara. Shameful bunch of chicken littles had been begging for the blow up and now can't handle the climb back up. I know I know, Dinosaur Dave and Murmur aren't capable of fielding and coaching a winner. If I can't see that by now, I don't know what I'm watching right?

This is bullshit dude. They've been bad for the better part of a decade and John Mara's decisions are largely responsible for that.

Regarding what's going on right now and my thoughts on Mara? I'll reserve judgement to see how he handles it. Firing Bettcher or even Shurmur this season while keeping DG would be repeating past mistakes. Especially if they go with a Garrett or McCarthy type as his replacement.
I'm leaning more towards flushing the whole thing (DG gets a pass for his mistake while Shurmur "has to go" for some reason) but I'd respect Mara more if he stays the course for another season entirely with both HC and GM intact than go piecemeal scapegoating he's exhibited since Gilbride.

In comment 14677094 HomerJones45 said:

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I'll be happy to explain it to you. Took over a 4-12 country club, went 6-10 the next year and 11-5 and playoffs the year after that. Amazing what can be accomplished when there are people in the front office and the sidelines who know their business.

Sorry if it appeared that I was criticizing your hero Homer, but I was just pointing out a fact. And as far as 2003 goes, losing 50 games to injury might have had something to do with that 4-12 record.

In comment 14676971 Platos said:

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this, seriously. how many reese drafts went by where not a single player made an impact? we at least see gettleman's guys in games. this year more than last obviously. Reese guys would be buried on the roster.

You are kidding right? You have to be...

I mean Gettlemean got rid of almost everybody prior to him being here. Here who is left
Eli Manning
Wayne Gallman
Sterling Shepard
Evan Engram
Rhett Ellison
Dalvin Tomlinson
Janoris Jenkins
Aldrick Rojas
Zak DeOssie

The team has no choice but to put Gettleman's guys in. Just because they are seeing time doesn't mean they are any good. If they were any good this team would be winning football games. With the exception of the 5 first and second round picks, and D Slayton, the rest are JAGs. (Connolly gets a pass, but now his future is uncertain because of injury)

In comment 14676969 jcn56 said:

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where does he go for advice? Who counseled him on all those half measures? Did he make them all himself, or does he have a sounding board? I'm afraid all of these were bounced off Accorsi, and that he's still consigliere. The org desperately needs an outside voice.

It's the weakness of the organizational structure and why you can't have co-owners involved in football operations. Co-owner 1 sticks his nose into Football Operations so Co-owner 2 wants to stick his nose in too. Then add the GM. Now you've got a committee of three involved in football operations. (a/k/a the "Giants Way"). Everyone has an opinion, everyone has their logic and everyone has a position. So you have to come up with a compromise if there is no agreement. If Accorsi is dragged in, it's by one or the other of the owners looking to balance a 2-1 situation. We have seen that before.

should have been obviously poor HC choices in the interview process. Two motivational HoF HCs brought us 4 SBs, and then you choose two gee wiz playcard in my face system weenie finesse WCO HCs??? What exactly is the criteria Mara/Tisch are looking for in a HC?

In comment 14676948 Rjanyg said:

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factor: Eli Manning John said he will never forget the pain his father felt allowing Young to cut Phil Simms in 1994, right after a pro bowl season. The handed the reigns over to Dave Brown an well you know how that worked out. Every decision that has been made is with the idea that Eli is part of the solution and not the problem, so fix everything else. Now Eli is on the bench making $23 Mill, we have $40 Mill in dead cap, but at least John Mara handled Eli better than Well handled Simms. Things will be much different with Eli gone. And I am an Eli fan and think that this is just part of trying to preserve Eli's legacy after 2 Super Bowls. Doe this make any sense?

Bingo, we have a winner. Nearly every decision that has been made from 2013 until the end of week 2 this year was about Eli. First it was continuity for Eli, then finding a regime that would accommodate Eli, despite the fact that it was clear he was near done after the 2017 season. T

Of course the usuals will come and blast anyone espousing this sentiment for daring the read the circumstantial evidence.