Williams will likely demand a much bigger contract because even though the stats aren’t overly impressive, the analytics crowd likes him and they are becoming more and more prominent within personnel circles. I think Tomlinson has value though. I know it is easy to say after what may have been the best game of his career, but there is a lot he can do within different schemes. He is a professional. Works hard, always tries to get better. We want more guys like this around. If I had to choose one because of economics, I am going with Tomlinson.
I agree. Tomlinson makes more economic sense than LW and he is capable of being just as productive. And he's still on his rookie contract for another year at a bargain basement price.
Maybe some pressure around the ends will end up with Williams Â
and Lawrence getting more sacks. They are DT who have to fight through constant double teaming to get there. I thought he played is ass off on every play. Hope they keep him.
Let's say Mara fires DG and Giants ownership interviewed you for the GM job. Mara stats to you during the interview that he doesn't expect you to fix the team in one off season and realizes he's been meddling too much with GM responsibilities. He asks you tell him your first 3 moves as GM to start the turn around...what would they be? Let's assume the off season started today.
Good question. A lot of angles but I will keep this short and simple:
Sign the top OC or OT you can in free agency. Similar to when NYG signed Kareem McKenzie in 2005. Doesn't have to be a LT. Go for the trustworthy RT or the OC. There may be some teams letting go an expensive LT (Niners - Staley / Redskins - Williams) that would be worth looking at.
Sign a proven, multiple year productive pass rusher. This COULD be Markus Golden but I am thinking more along the lines of Yannick Ngakoue from JAC. If he reaches the market, you have to go get him. Even if you have to overpay. While the QB is on the rookie deal and with Manning/Beckham off the books, you can easily afford this.
My third FA would be whatever position along the OL I didn't fill in Part 1. If it is a second-tier FA, that is fine. It is an improvement over what NYG has and it allows them to go in to the draft and take the best pass rusher or OL that is there.
Are you keeping Shurmur and the rest of the coaching staff?
I'll let Sy answer for himself. But in regards to your question and hypothetical, is it common where coaching staffs are retained when a new GM is brought in?
Sy's draft evaluation of Jones is cited every time he fumbles the ball Â
Yet Sy has been nothing but levelheaded when it comes to his fumbling. Unlike many chicken littles here he's not ignoring the good to only focus on the bad, he's focusing on both. If there's anyone that could have cited the fumbles as proof that Sy's less than stellar review of Jones was correct, it's Sy. He doesn't do that. But people will continue to latch onto that review because it fits their narrative.
Alvin Kamara: gets the ball in space.
Gurley: gets the ball in space.
The Chiefs RBs--whoever they're using: get the ball in space.
14 year olds playing Madden: know to get the ball to stud, shifty RBs in space.
Derrick Henry: ok, when you have Derrick Henry you can pound the rock. We have Saquon Barkley. Perhaps we should be using him closer to CMC and Kamara than Derrick Henry.
This was the fear of drafting him, particularly at #2. How was going to be deployed?
If you are going to take him, the entire organization has to be on board with a philosophy and style of play where you are gearing and designing your entire offense to maximize his abilities. If you are not going to do that, picking him makes no sense.
It's possible Gettleman had one vision for how to use Barkley (old power 1990's style) and Shurmur had another (think of Brian Westbrook).
Once there is a clash (and it sure appears to be based on usage), you have a problem.
So now as we have seen for 2 years, the offense has never been centered around him. There never was an organizational plan. Most of the passes to him are more out of desperation short throws hoping he can bail them out, thus inflating his reception totals as opposed to exploiting specific matchups with LB's and safeties.
That is not happening and has not happened for 2 years. After 8 games last year, the coached said he realized he needed to give Barkley the ball more. Isn't that why he was drafted #2 overall???
If you figure an RB has a 6 year prime where you get his best, they have already wasted 33% of it. After next season, you know his people will be talking contract renewal.
It's an ugly habit for bad coaches to fit a player to scheme Â
He should never be a number one or even a number two target for a team in the passing game, but if he is your three or four, he can be big time.
Tate is an example of what is wrong with the direction of this team. What did they pay him? #1 money? For a guy his age and with his game? That was an AWFUL move by a team with massive holes at several key positions.
That's not #1 WR money, it's about average for a #2 or top of the market slot WR money. That's one signing I don't think was as bad as people make it out to be, they needed to stabalize the unit after shipping off OBJ. The money just seemed bigger than it was because of how outrageous the WR market has been in recent years (see Paul Richardson, Adam Humphries, Sammy Watkins, etc).
i ask because every game i like to focus on what the OL is doing and it seems like we run no counters, traps, stretch plays, etc. it all seems like they're pass blocking even on running plays.
They do less pulling / trapping than the average but it isn't by much. That is actually becoming less and less common in the league.
thanks. any reason why the league is moving away from traditional run block schemes? is it more of a dead give away seeing a guard pull that theres a run play?
I can't say for sure. My guess - a lot of OL that pull don't actually get to their target in time and I think the thought is - you can get a hat on a hat with a more straightforward approach.
My simple-minded interpretation, correct me if I am wrong, Sy:
Defenses are now built more on speed than in the old days, so slower developing power runs don't work the way they used to.
But one disagreement. I know he will cost more money but Leonard Wiliams is a far superior football player then Tomlinson. IMO, Tomilinson is a JAG.He doesn't impact the game at all. The Jet game was his best because their o-line is as crap as ours. He's mediocre against the run and lacks any burst or quickness to get to the quarterback. The Giants would be crazy to let Williams walk to keep Tomlinson. Oh, one more thing, they're about the same age.
Good to see you are high on Peppers. I am totally in agreement with the shotgun. I have no clue as to why Shurmur is doing this. Jones with movement puts added pressure on the secondary and LB coverage which would help with creating more separation imo. What about a throwback screen to Barkley or utilizing 2 backs? Something.
I think Tomlinson has a future. They have a lot of money and they may be able to squeeze him in. DG has the makings of a outstanding interior with depth. To win the NFC East they have to stop the run. This off-season he hits Safety, Edge and ILB.
The line will be almost new in two years imo. Hernandez and four new starters.
sy stated in the review that darnold has 29 turnovers Â
He should never be a number one or even a number two target for a team in the passing game, but if he is your three or four, he can be big time.
Tate is an example of what is wrong with the direction of this team. What did they pay him? #1 money? For a guy his age and with his game? That was an AWFUL move by a team with massive holes at several key positions.
That's not #1 WR money, it's about average for a #2 or top of the market slot WR money. That's one signing I don't think was as bad as people make it out to be, they needed to stabalize the unit after shipping off OBJ. The money just seemed bigger than it was because of how outrageous the WR market has been in recent years (see Paul Richardson, Adam Humphries, Sammy Watkins, etc).
Yeh that isn't even close to number 1 money. Cooper is an average number 1 WR and he is about to get what 19 million.
Let's say Mara fires DG and Giants ownership interviewed you for the GM job. Mara stats to you during the interview that he doesn't expect you to fix the team in one off season and realizes he's been meddling too much with GM responsibilities. He asks you tell him your first 3 moves as GM to start the turn around...what would they be? Let's assume the off season started today.
Good question. A lot of angles but I will keep this short and simple:
Sign the top OC or OT you can in free agency. Similar to when NYG signed Kareem McKenzie in 2005. Doesn't have to be a LT. Go for the trustworthy RT or the OC. There may be some teams letting go an expensive LT (Niners - Staley / Redskins - Williams) that would be worth looking at.
Sign a proven, multiple year productive pass rusher. This COULD be Markus Golden but I am thinking more along the lines of Yannick Ngakoue from JAC. If he reaches the market, you have to go get him. Even if you have to overpay. While the QB is on the rookie deal and with Manning/Beckham off the books, you can easily afford this.
My third FA would be whatever position along the OL I didn't fill in Part 1. If it is a second-tier FA, that is fine. It is an improvement over what NYG has and it allows them to go in to the draft and take the best pass rusher or OL that is there.
Sy, is there a specific (potential) free agent center that you would look into getting?
It’s time to face reality....Sterling Sheppard cannot be relied upon at all. He is a hit waiting to happen. For some reason when he gets hit, it is an injury.....as we can see in Tate’s career, that is not the case with him. Tate can be relied upon, Sheppard can’t. It’s that simple. So now we need another WR.
But, overall, instantness in runs and run blocking has been the killer ap for a few years. Probably meaning more zone blocking oriented. To do with countering not only the speed of defenses but also countering agressuve pass rushing north south by dictating east west
. Been saying it for 6 years
But one disagreement. I know he will cost more money but Leonard Wiliams is a far superior football player then Tomlinson. IMO, Tomilinson is a JAG.He doesn't impact the game at all. The Jet game was his best because their o-line is as crap as ours. He's mediocre against the run and lacks any burst or quickness to get to the quarterback. The Giants would be crazy to let Williams walk to keep Tomlinson. Oh, one more thing, they're about the same age.
Agree that Williams is a better player.
The question is, he is better economically for the team considering the contracts that will be demanded?
Let's say Mara fires DG and Giants ownership interviewed you for the GM job. Mara stats to you during the interview that he doesn't expect you to fix the team in one off season and realizes he's been meddling too much with GM responsibilities. He asks you tell him your first 3 moves as GM to start the turn around...what would they be? Let's assume the off season started today.
Good question. A lot of angles but I will keep this short and simple:
Sign the top OC or OT you can in free agency. Similar to when NYG signed Kareem McKenzie in 2005. Doesn't have to be a LT. Go for the trustworthy RT or the OC. There may be some teams letting go an expensive LT (Niners - Staley / Redskins - Williams) that would be worth looking at.
Sign a proven, multiple year productive pass rusher. This COULD be Markus Golden but I am thinking more along the lines of Yannick Ngakoue from JAC. If he reaches the market, you have to go get him. Even if you have to overpay. While the QB is on the rookie deal and with Manning/Beckham off the books, you can easily afford this.
My third FA would be whatever position along the OL I didn't fill in Part 1. If it is a second-tier FA, that is fine. It is an improvement over what NYG has and it allows them to go in to the draft and take the best pass rusher or OL that is there.
Sy, is there a specific (potential) free agent center that you would look into getting?
A swing for the fence would be Joe Thuney from NE...but he plays guard. Would have to do some extra digging to see if he could move to OC.
Ben Finney from PIT is an option. Limited playing time over his career but he has been good when opportunity was there.
I have always like Stefen Wisniewski although he is 31 now, hasn't always been a starter.
is coming off a 2 TD game, including an electric long TD run, and people question his value? I keep saying posts about him being a WR3. He is still producing as a #1 WR in the NFL. What he doesn't have is the complement on the other side, nor a consistently healthy TE.
is coming off a 2 TD game, including an electric long TD run, and people question his value? I keep saying posts about him being a WR3. He is still producing as a #1 WR in the NFL. What he doesn't have is the complement on the other side, nor a consistently healthy TE.
Golden Tate Stats:
33 rec 417 yards 3 TD's
Odell Beckham Stats:
44 rec 632 yards 1 TD
Tate has played in four less games. I'm thinking Tate's value is just fine.
good value for the production and money he's making. Tough receiver who catches everything and makes splash plays consistently. The structure of the contract is also nice. One of Gettleman's only good FA moves.
You can argue Boyd's a better player, particularly given his age, but his was an extension and he didn't hit free agency. Other than that though, Tate's easily been the best of this group.
But one disagreement. I know he will cost more money but Leonard Wiliams is a far superior football player then Tomlinson. IMO, Tomilinson is a JAG.He doesn't impact the game at all. The Jet game was his best because their o-line is as crap as ours. He's mediocre against the run and lacks any burst or quickness to get to the quarterback. The Giants would be crazy to let Williams walk to keep Tomlinson. Oh, one more thing, they're about the same age.
Agree that Williams is a better player.
The question is, he is better economically for the team considering the contracts that will be demanded?
If JonC is correct, then the Giants look at Williams as a core player they can build on, and therefore they'll make every effort to re-sign him. They've already "invested" in him with what should be significant draft capital. Spending that capital and then letting him walk should get people fired, in my opinion. Having said that, though, there's no way he should command the type of money that, say, Chris Jones or Yannick Ngakoue will. His production hasn't come close to theirs.
So, if the Giants do want to keep him (and he does want to stay in New York), I hope they come to a reasonable agreement. I seriously doubt anyone is going to back up the proverbial truck to sign him, and there's no reason the Giants should, either...unless they don't want to look like complete idiots for giving up a couple of good draft picks for an eight-game rental.
It seems to me that Gettleman is caught between a rock and a hard place, but that's where he chose to be by trading for a guy who's due to hit the open market next year. For his sake and the team's, I hope he can extricate himself without losing his job or crippling the team's chances of signing a couple more starting-caliber free agents.
is coming off a 2 TD game, including an electric long TD run, and people question his value? I keep saying posts about him being a WR3. He is still producing as a #1 WR in the NFL. What he doesn't have is the complement on the other side, nor a consistently healthy TE.
Golden Tate Stats:
33 rec 417 yards 3 TD's
Odell Beckham Stats:
44 rec 632 yards 1 TD
Tate has played in four less games. I'm thinking Tate's value is just fine.
Tate is 64th in the League in receptions, 57th in the league in yards, 112th in the league in catch percentage, and 61st in the league in targets. You all consider that #1 or #2 wideout production, I guess and worthy of a 4 year contract for a 30+ y/o player. Ok. Yes, let's go out and get more Golden Tates. Genius.
once they followed his plan and made a big investment in Lawrence, Tomlinson should, under rational management, have no big money future with Giants.
Lawrence gives you an all-down player at the same position that Tomlinson gives you a run-down player. I further believe that Lawrence is just going to be a better player, even on run-downs.
Neither is viable outside no matter what crap the PR people may try to spin
Agreed, let's not count Boyd because he was an extension.
Funchess broke his collarbone the first game of the season. Let's see what happens when he comes back which may be this week. He's 25 and on a 1 year deal and cost $22,000,000 less in guarantees than Tate.
Humphries is 26 on a team with qb problems. Even at that, he is catching 75% of the passes coming his way. The problem in TN is opportunity, not production. His deal has 10 million less in guarantees than Tates. He would have been a good signing.
I don't see where Tate compares favorably to Crowder. Crowder has been more productive on a Jets team with Darnold. His deal has 6 million less in guarantees and is 1 year shorter. At age 26, he should have been considered as the signing.
Agreed on Jackson at age 33.
Here is the list of wr 30+ earning more than Tate: Julio Jones, Hilton, Fitzgerald, Green, Sanders. Fitz and Sanders are free agents after this season. Hilton has another year left on his deal. Tate is earning top dollar for a 30+ receiver on a 4 year contract. You guys decide whether he, at age 31, was a good value or not.
just for argument's sake - here are his numbers if you take his per game avg and extrapolate them out for the 4 games he missed then added to his current numbers.
66 rec - 695 yrds - 5 TDs
His 66 catches would rank him 3rd
His 695 yrds would rank him 12th
His 5 TDs would tie him for 3rd
Agreed, let's not count Boyd because he was an extension.
Funchess broke his collarbone the first game of the season. Let's see what happens when he comes back which may be this week. He's 25 and on a 1 year deal and cost $22,000,000 less in guarantees than Tate.
Humphries is 26 on a team with qb problems. Even at that, he is catching 75% of the passes coming his way. The problem in TN is opportunity, not production. His deal has 10 million less in guarantees than Tates. He would have been a good signing.
I don't see where Tate compares favorably to Crowder. Crowder has been more productive on a Jets team with Darnold. His deal has 6 million less in guarantees and is 1 year shorter. At age 26, he should have been considered as the signing.
Agreed on Jackson at age 33.
Here is the list of wr 30+ earning more than Tate: Julio Jones, Hilton, Fitzgerald, Green, Sanders. Fitz and Sanders are free agents after this season. Hilton has another year left on his deal. Tate is earning top dollar for a 30+ receiver on a 4 year contract. You guys decide whether he, at age 31, was a good value or not.
re: Crowder - In what world is averaging ~15 yds/game less on roughly the same # of catches and scoring fewer TDs "more productive"? Even factoring in Tate's lower catch%, he's still averaging almost 1 yard/target more than Crowder.
Ever think that Humphries low number of targets is also a reflection of his inability to get open/create separation? Giants have a rookie QB and one of the worst OLs in the NFL and yet they can still get the ball to Tate.
Maybe Funchess is just a late bloomer, but his best season (2017) isn't even a top 5 season for Tate. And talk about a low catch% (52% for his career).
Tate's also outproducing Fitz (5 rec/55.6 yds/0.2 TDs per game) and Sanders (4.3 rec/52.8 yds/0.4 TDs per game) so not sure how that's relevant. Though, I'm not sure what age has to do with it as I'd take Tate and his deal over a few of the younger guys that are making more (notably Cooks, Robinson).
The fact that you posted that drivel of shit either means you intentionally ignored that point or you are fucking clueless.
I know critical thinking makes your head hurt and your view of the world with your head stuck up Gettleman's ass is restricted so let me help.
Other people on the extensive list of receivers with more catches (which your cohort cited) than Mr. PED have missed games due to injury and bye weeks. We can expect him to drop further after this bye week. But let's forget all that and project what he would have had in those 4 games: he rises to 24th in catches before his bye week. Yes, "electric".
Here is the list of receivers 30+ making more than Golden Tate: Julio Jones, Fitzgerald, Green, Hilton, Sanders. Gee, I guess $36 million with $22 million guaranteed doesn't buy much in the 31 year old receiver market.
Agreed, let's not count Boyd because he was an extension.
Funchess broke his collarbone the first game of the season. Let's see what happens when he comes back which may be this week. He's 25 and on a 1 year deal and cost $22,000,000 less in guarantees than Tate.
Humphries is 26 on a team with qb problems. Even at that, he is catching 75% of the passes coming his way. The problem in TN is opportunity, not production. His deal has 10 million less in guarantees than Tates. He would have been a good signing.
I don't see where Tate compares favorably to Crowder. Crowder has been more productive on a Jets team with Darnold. His deal has 6 million less in guarantees and is 1 year shorter. At age 26, he should have been considered as the signing.
Agreed on Jackson at age 33.
Here is the list of wr 30+ earning more than Tate: Julio Jones, Hilton, Fitzgerald, Green, Sanders. Fitz and Sanders are free agents after this season. Hilton has another year left on his deal. Tate is earning top dollar for a 30+ receiver on a 4 year contract. You guys decide whether he, at age 31, was a good value or not.
re: Crowder - In what world is averaging ~15 yds/game less on roughly the same # of catches and scoring fewer TDs "more productive"? Even factoring in Tate's lower catch%, he's still averaging almost 1 yard/target more than Crowder.
Ever think that Humphries low number of targets is also a reflection of his inability to get open/create separation? Giants have a rookie QB and one of the worst OLs in the NFL and yet they can still get the ball to Tate.
Maybe Funchess is just a late bloomer, but his best season (2017) isn't even a top 5 season for Tate. And talk about a low catch% (52% for his career).
Tate's also outproducing Fitz (5 rec/55.6 yds/0.2 TDs per game) and Sanders (4.3 rec/52.8 yds/0.4 TDs per game) so not sure how that's relevant. Though, I'm not sure what age has to do with it as I'd take Tate and his deal over a few of the younger guys that are making more (notably Cooks, Robinson).
First, I give you credit for responding intelligently unlike your Neanderthal-brained fellow traveler.
How do you think Tate would be doing with the Jets qb's throwing to him? (Remember, Darnold missed some games). At age 26, Crowder is putting up the same numbers with worse qb's. When you consider the lesser guaranteed money hit, I still think he would have made a good signing.
Humphries has 42 targets and he catches better than 75% of the passes thrown to him so yes, he does get open. Sharpe and Brown have 45 to lead the Titans. By comparison, Tate has 50 having missed 4 games. Again, at age 26, he would have been a good signing to grow up with a young qb and less money than Tate.
Fitz is 5 years older than Tate. The fact that he is still at all productive is a tribute to a guy who is a first ballot HOF. He is also a free agent. Remember, Tate signed a 4 year deal that lasts until he hits age 35. Good luck with that.
He's producing less than Tate. One has a 2nd year QB, the other a rookie. Way too early to definitively declare Darnold or Jones the "better" QB and attribute the better #s Tate has to better QB play.
Humphries is overrated and while he has a nice catch rate, his #s suck. If he was putting up those #s here, we'd be declaring him a waste of money.
The issue with Tate is that he is 31 years old on team that has no hope of being competitive over the next 2 years.
When the Giants are ready to compete, he will be gone.
The Giants are not in a position right to be giving multi-year contracts out to 30+ year old players. The Giants need to find solutions that will be here and be a part of the core for years to come.
Tate is an excellent player for a team that has SB aspirations and need a solid WR.
I agree. Tomlinson makes more economic sense than LW and he is capable of being just as productive. And he's still on his rookie contract for another year at a bargain basement price.
Quote:
In comment 14676986 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
Let's say Mara fires DG and Giants ownership interviewed you for the GM job. Mara stats to you during the interview that he doesn't expect you to fix the team in one off season and realizes he's been meddling too much with GM responsibilities. He asks you tell him your first 3 moves as GM to start the turn around...what would they be? Let's assume the off season started today.
Good question. A lot of angles but I will keep this short and simple:
Sign the top OC or OT you can in free agency. Similar to when NYG signed Kareem McKenzie in 2005. Doesn't have to be a LT. Go for the trustworthy RT or the OC. There may be some teams letting go an expensive LT (Niners - Staley / Redskins - Williams) that would be worth looking at.
Sign a proven, multiple year productive pass rusher. This COULD be Markus Golden but I am thinking more along the lines of Yannick Ngakoue from JAC. If he reaches the market, you have to go get him. Even if you have to overpay. While the QB is on the rookie deal and with Manning/Beckham off the books, you can easily afford this.
My third FA would be whatever position along the OL I didn't fill in Part 1. If it is a second-tier FA, that is fine. It is an improvement over what NYG has and it allows them to go in to the draft and take the best pass rusher or OL that is there.
Are you keeping Shurmur and the rest of the coaching staff?
I'll let Sy answer for himself. But in regards to your question and hypothetical, is it common where coaching staffs are retained when a new GM is brought in?
Gurley: gets the ball in space.
The Chiefs RBs--whoever they're using: get the ball in space.
14 year olds playing Madden: know to get the ball to stud, shifty RBs in space.
Derrick Henry: ok, when you have Derrick Henry you can pound the rock. We have Saquon Barkley. Perhaps we should be using him closer to CMC and Kamara than Derrick Henry.
This was the fear of drafting him, particularly at #2. How was going to be deployed?
If you are going to take him, the entire organization has to be on board with a philosophy and style of play where you are gearing and designing your entire offense to maximize his abilities. If you are not going to do that, picking him makes no sense.
It's possible Gettleman had one vision for how to use Barkley (old power 1990's style) and Shurmur had another (think of Brian Westbrook).
Once there is a clash (and it sure appears to be based on usage), you have a problem.
So now as we have seen for 2 years, the offense has never been centered around him. There never was an organizational plan. Most of the passes to him are more out of desperation short throws hoping he can bail them out, thus inflating his reception totals as opposed to exploiting specific matchups with LB's and safeties.
That is not happening and has not happened for 2 years. After 8 games last year, the coached said he realized he needed to give Barkley the ball more. Isn't that why he was drafted #2 overall???
If you figure an RB has a 6 year prime where you get his best, they have already wasted 33% of it. After next season, you know his people will be talking contract renewal.
Quote:
He should never be a number one or even a number two target for a team in the passing game, but if he is your three or four, he can be big time.
Tate is an example of what is wrong with the direction of this team. What did they pay him? #1 money? For a guy his age and with his game? That was an AWFUL move by a team with massive holes at several key positions.
That's not #1 WR money, it's about average for a #2 or top of the market slot WR money. That's one signing I don't think was as bad as people make it out to be, they needed to stabalize the unit after shipping off OBJ. The money just seemed bigger than it was because of how outrageous the WR market has been in recent years (see Paul Richardson, Adam Humphries, Sammy Watkins, etc).
Quote:
In comment 14677422 Platos said:
Quote:
is our offensive line running a vanilla scheme?
i ask because every game i like to focus on what the OL is doing and it seems like we run no counters, traps, stretch plays, etc. it all seems like they're pass blocking even on running plays.
They do less pulling / trapping than the average but it isn't by much. That is actually becoming less and less common in the league.
thanks. any reason why the league is moving away from traditional run block schemes? is it more of a dead give away seeing a guard pull that theres a run play?
I can't say for sure. My guess - a lot of OL that pull don't actually get to their target in time and I think the thought is - you can get a hat on a hat with a more straightforward approach.
My simple-minded interpretation, correct me if I am wrong, Sy:
Defenses are now built more on speed than in the old days, so slower developing power runs don't work the way they used to.
I think Tomlinson has a future. They have a lot of money and they may be able to squeeze him in. DG has the makings of a outstanding interior with depth. To win the NFC East they have to stop the run. This off-season he hits Safety, Edge and ILB.
The line will be almost new in two years imo. Hernandez and four new starters.
so far jones has 11 fumbles and 8 ints for 19 total turnovers through 8 games. he is on pace to set a record here. that is insane.
i know the apologists will say nothing to see here, or blame barkley, or the offensive line, or shurmur, or anyone else but jones.
but right now, no other quarterback in the league is turning the ball over as much as jones is.
so far jones has 11 fumbles and 8 ints for 19 total turnovers through 8 games. he is on pace to set a record here. that is insane.
i know the apologists will say nothing to see here, or blame barkley, or the offensive line, or shurmur, or anyone else but jones.
but right now, no other quarterback in the league is turning the ball over as much as jones is.
If he is still turning the ball over at this rate in 2 years, he will be out too
It seems to be all or nothing with Giants fans now in regards to Jones... the glass is completely empty or overflowing.
Quote:
Quote:
He should never be a number one or even a number two target for a team in the passing game, but if he is your three or four, he can be big time.
Tate is an example of what is wrong with the direction of this team. What did they pay him? #1 money? For a guy his age and with his game? That was an AWFUL move by a team with massive holes at several key positions.
That's not #1 WR money, it's about average for a #2 or top of the market slot WR money. That's one signing I don't think was as bad as people make it out to be, they needed to stabalize the unit after shipping off OBJ. The money just seemed bigger than it was because of how outrageous the WR market has been in recent years (see Paul Richardson, Adam Humphries, Sammy Watkins, etc).
Yeh that isn't even close to number 1 money. Cooper is an average number 1 WR and he is about to get what 19 million.
Quote:
Let's say Mara fires DG and Giants ownership interviewed you for the GM job. Mara stats to you during the interview that he doesn't expect you to fix the team in one off season and realizes he's been meddling too much with GM responsibilities. He asks you tell him your first 3 moves as GM to start the turn around...what would they be? Let's assume the off season started today.
Good question. A lot of angles but I will keep this short and simple:
Sign the top OC or OT you can in free agency. Similar to when NYG signed Kareem McKenzie in 2005. Doesn't have to be a LT. Go for the trustworthy RT or the OC. There may be some teams letting go an expensive LT (Niners - Staley / Redskins - Williams) that would be worth looking at.
Sign a proven, multiple year productive pass rusher. This COULD be Markus Golden but I am thinking more along the lines of Yannick Ngakoue from JAC. If he reaches the market, you have to go get him. Even if you have to overpay. While the QB is on the rookie deal and with Manning/Beckham off the books, you can easily afford this.
My third FA would be whatever position along the OL I didn't fill in Part 1. If it is a second-tier FA, that is fine. It is an improvement over what NYG has and it allows them to go in to the draft and take the best pass rusher or OL that is there.
Sy, is there a specific (potential) free agent center that you would look into getting?
It’s time to face reality....Sterling Sheppard cannot be relied upon at all. He is a hit waiting to happen. For some reason when he gets hit, it is an injury.....as we can see in Tate’s career, that is not the case with him. Tate can be relied upon, Sheppard can’t. It’s that simple. So now we need another WR.
Vikings ran off 10 running plays in a row on the cowboys, all looked like zone runs . Leading to a TD.
That's the polar opposite of what we do at this point. My
Who built the run game at vikes when shurm was there?
But, overall, instantness in runs and run blocking has been the killer ap for a few years. Probably meaning more zone blocking oriented. To do with countering not only the speed of defenses but also countering agressuve pass rushing north south by dictating east west
. Been saying it for 6 years
Agree that Williams is a better player.
The question is, he is better economically for the team considering the contracts that will be demanded?
Quote:
In comment 14676986 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
Let's say Mara fires DG and Giants ownership interviewed you for the GM job. Mara stats to you during the interview that he doesn't expect you to fix the team in one off season and realizes he's been meddling too much with GM responsibilities. He asks you tell him your first 3 moves as GM to start the turn around...what would they be? Let's assume the off season started today.
Good question. A lot of angles but I will keep this short and simple:
Sign the top OC or OT you can in free agency. Similar to when NYG signed Kareem McKenzie in 2005. Doesn't have to be a LT. Go for the trustworthy RT or the OC. There may be some teams letting go an expensive LT (Niners - Staley / Redskins - Williams) that would be worth looking at.
Sign a proven, multiple year productive pass rusher. This COULD be Markus Golden but I am thinking more along the lines of Yannick Ngakoue from JAC. If he reaches the market, you have to go get him. Even if you have to overpay. While the QB is on the rookie deal and with Manning/Beckham off the books, you can easily afford this.
My third FA would be whatever position along the OL I didn't fill in Part 1. If it is a second-tier FA, that is fine. It is an improvement over what NYG has and it allows them to go in to the draft and take the best pass rusher or OL that is there.
Sy, is there a specific (potential) free agent center that you would look into getting?
A swing for the fence would be Joe Thuney from NE...but he plays guard. Would have to do some extra digging to see if he could move to OC.
Ben Finney from PIT is an option. Limited playing time over his career but he has been good when opportunity was there.
I have always like Stefen Wisniewski although he is 31 now, hasn't always been a starter.
Golden Tate Stats:
33 rec 417 yards 3 TD's
Odell Beckham Stats:
44 rec 632 yards 1 TD
Tate has played in four less games. I'm thinking Tate's value is just fine.
It is guys like Tate we should be collecting more of.
Season Totals
Boyd: 57 rec 598 yds 1 TD 10.5 y/r
Crowder: 48 rec 486 yds 2 TDs 10.1 y/r
Funchess: 3 rec 32 yards 0 TD 10.7 y/r
Humphries 33 rec 341 yds 1 TD 10.3 y/r
D Jackson: 9 rec 159 yds 2 TDs 17.7 y/r (likely done for the year)
Tate: 33 rec 417 yds 3 TDs 12.6 y/r
Per Game
Boyd: 6.3 rec 66.4 yds 0.1 TDs
Crowder: 5.3 rec 54 yds 0.2 TDs
Funchess: 3 rec 32 yds 0 TDs
Humphries: 3.3 rec 34.1 yds 0.1 TDs
D Jax: 3 rec 53 yds 0.7 TDs
Tate: 5.5 rec 69.5 yds 0.5 TDs
You can argue Boyd's a better player, particularly given his age, but his was an extension and he didn't hit free agency. Other than that though, Tate's easily been the best of this group.
Quote:
But one disagreement. I know he will cost more money but Leonard Wiliams is a far superior football player then Tomlinson. IMO, Tomilinson is a JAG.He doesn't impact the game at all. The Jet game was his best because their o-line is as crap as ours. He's mediocre against the run and lacks any burst or quickness to get to the quarterback. The Giants would be crazy to let Williams walk to keep Tomlinson. Oh, one more thing, they're about the same age.
Agree that Williams is a better player.
The question is, he is better economically for the team considering the contracts that will be demanded?
If JonC is correct, then the Giants look at Williams as a core player they can build on, and therefore they'll make every effort to re-sign him. They've already "invested" in him with what should be significant draft capital. Spending that capital and then letting him walk should get people fired, in my opinion. Having said that, though, there's no way he should command the type of money that, say, Chris Jones or Yannick Ngakoue will. His production hasn't come close to theirs.
So, if the Giants do want to keep him (and he does want to stay in New York), I hope they come to a reasonable agreement. I seriously doubt anyone is going to back up the proverbial truck to sign him, and there's no reason the Giants should, either...unless they don't want to look like complete idiots for giving up a couple of good draft picks for an eight-game rental.
It seems to me that Gettleman is caught between a rock and a hard place, but that's where he chose to be by trading for a guy who's due to hit the open market next year. For his sake and the team's, I hope he can extricate himself without losing his job or crippling the team's chances of signing a couple more starting-caliber free agents.
Compare also safety and lb money. Centers. Tight ends.
But, overall, Tate is a piece in the puzzle , yes.
Quote:
is coming off a 2 TD game, including an electric long TD run, and people question his value? I keep saying posts about him being a WR3. He is still producing as a #1 WR in the NFL. What he doesn't have is the complement on the other side, nor a consistently healthy TE.
Golden Tate Stats:
33 rec 417 yards 3 TD's
Odell Beckham Stats:
44 rec 632 yards 1 TD
Tate has played in four less games. I'm thinking Tate's value is just fine.
Lawrence gives you an all-down player at the same position that Tomlinson gives you a run-down player. I further believe that Lawrence is just going to be a better player, even on run-downs.
Neither is viable outside no matter what crap the PR people may try to spin
The fact that you posted that drivel of shit either means you intentionally ignored that point or you are fucking clueless.
To show the relevance of that, there are only 6WR's in the Top 50, including such standouts as:
- Allen Lazard
- Adam Humphries
- Kenny Stills
Crowder: 48 rec 486 yds 2 TDs 10.1 y/r
Funchess: 3 rec 32 yards 0 TD 10.7 y/r
Humphries 33 rec 341 yds 1 TD 10.3 y/r
D Jackson: 9 rec 159 yds 2 TDs 17.7 y/r (likely done for the year)
Agreed, let's not count Boyd because he was an extension.
Funchess broke his collarbone the first game of the season. Let's see what happens when he comes back which may be this week. He's 25 and on a 1 year deal and cost $22,000,000 less in guarantees than Tate.
Humphries is 26 on a team with qb problems. Even at that, he is catching 75% of the passes coming his way. The problem in TN is opportunity, not production. His deal has 10 million less in guarantees than Tates. He would have been a good signing.
I don't see where Tate compares favorably to Crowder. Crowder has been more productive on a Jets team with Darnold. His deal has 6 million less in guarantees and is 1 year shorter. At age 26, he should have been considered as the signing.
Agreed on Jackson at age 33.
Here is the list of wr 30+ earning more than Tate: Julio Jones, Hilton, Fitzgerald, Green, Sanders. Fitz and Sanders are free agents after this season. Hilton has another year left on his deal. Tate is earning top dollar for a 30+ receiver on a 4 year contract. You guys decide whether he, at age 31, was a good value or not.
66 rec - 695 yrds - 5 TDs
His 66 catches would rank him 3rd
His 695 yrds would rank him 12th
His 5 TDs would tie him for 3rd
Let's use catch %!
Quote:
Boyd: 57 rec 598 yds 1 TD 10.5 y/r
Crowder: 48 rec 486 yds 2 TDs 10.1 y/r
Funchess: 3 rec 32 yards 0 TD 10.7 y/r
Humphries 33 rec 341 yds 1 TD 10.3 y/r
D Jackson: 9 rec 159 yds 2 TDs 17.7 y/r (likely done for the year)
Agreed, let's not count Boyd because he was an extension.
Funchess broke his collarbone the first game of the season. Let's see what happens when he comes back which may be this week. He's 25 and on a 1 year deal and cost $22,000,000 less in guarantees than Tate.
Humphries is 26 on a team with qb problems. Even at that, he is catching 75% of the passes coming his way. The problem in TN is opportunity, not production. His deal has 10 million less in guarantees than Tates. He would have been a good signing.
I don't see where Tate compares favorably to Crowder. Crowder has been more productive on a Jets team with Darnold. His deal has 6 million less in guarantees and is 1 year shorter. At age 26, he should have been considered as the signing.
Agreed on Jackson at age 33.
Here is the list of wr 30+ earning more than Tate: Julio Jones, Hilton, Fitzgerald, Green, Sanders. Fitz and Sanders are free agents after this season. Hilton has another year left on his deal. Tate is earning top dollar for a 30+ receiver on a 4 year contract. You guys decide whether he, at age 31, was a good value or not.
re: Crowder - In what world is averaging ~15 yds/game less on roughly the same # of catches and scoring fewer TDs "more productive"? Even factoring in Tate's lower catch%, he's still averaging almost 1 yard/target more than Crowder.
Ever think that Humphries low number of targets is also a reflection of his inability to get open/create separation? Giants have a rookie QB and one of the worst OLs in the NFL and yet they can still get the ball to Tate.
Maybe Funchess is just a late bloomer, but his best season (2017) isn't even a top 5 season for Tate. And talk about a low catch% (52% for his career).
Tate's also outproducing Fitz (5 rec/55.6 yds/0.2 TDs per game) and Sanders (4.3 rec/52.8 yds/0.4 TDs per game) so not sure how that's relevant. Though, I'm not sure what age has to do with it as I'd take Tate and his deal over a few of the younger guys that are making more (notably Cooks, Robinson).
The fact that you posted that drivel of shit either means you intentionally ignored that point or you are fucking clueless.
Other people on the extensive list of receivers with more catches (which your cohort cited) than Mr. PED have missed games due to injury and bye weeks. We can expect him to drop further after this bye week. But let's forget all that and project what he would have had in those 4 games: he rises to 24th in catches before his bye week. Yes, "electric".
Here is the list of receivers 30+ making more than Golden Tate: Julio Jones, Fitzgerald, Green, Hilton, Sanders. Gee, I guess $36 million with $22 million guaranteed doesn't buy much in the 31 year old receiver market.
According to the link below, he's 92nd overall and 24th among WR's.
Intentional Misuse of a Stat or Just Careless? - ( New Window )
Let me guess - you fancy yourself as a critical thinker?
His per game catch avg is 5.5.
5.5 x 4 games he missed is 22
22 + 33 = 66
That would put him 3rd in the NFL between DeAndre Hopkins and Julian Edelman.
The Falcons are going to regret that deal big time.
His per game catch avg is 5.5.
5.5 x 4 games he missed is 22
22 + 33 = 66
That would put him 3rd in the NFL between DeAndre Hopkins and Julian Edelman.
22+33=55
Quote:
Quote:
Boyd: 57 rec 598 yds 1 TD 10.5 y/r
Crowder: 48 rec 486 yds 2 TDs 10.1 y/r
Funchess: 3 rec 32 yards 0 TD 10.7 y/r
Humphries 33 rec 341 yds 1 TD 10.3 y/r
D Jackson: 9 rec 159 yds 2 TDs 17.7 y/r (likely done for the year)
Agreed, let's not count Boyd because he was an extension.
Funchess broke his collarbone the first game of the season. Let's see what happens when he comes back which may be this week. He's 25 and on a 1 year deal and cost $22,000,000 less in guarantees than Tate.
Humphries is 26 on a team with qb problems. Even at that, he is catching 75% of the passes coming his way. The problem in TN is opportunity, not production. His deal has 10 million less in guarantees than Tates. He would have been a good signing.
I don't see where Tate compares favorably to Crowder. Crowder has been more productive on a Jets team with Darnold. His deal has 6 million less in guarantees and is 1 year shorter. At age 26, he should have been considered as the signing.
Agreed on Jackson at age 33.
Here is the list of wr 30+ earning more than Tate: Julio Jones, Hilton, Fitzgerald, Green, Sanders. Fitz and Sanders are free agents after this season. Hilton has another year left on his deal. Tate is earning top dollar for a 30+ receiver on a 4 year contract. You guys decide whether he, at age 31, was a good value or not.
re: Crowder - In what world is averaging ~15 yds/game less on roughly the same # of catches and scoring fewer TDs "more productive"? Even factoring in Tate's lower catch%, he's still averaging almost 1 yard/target more than Crowder.
Ever think that Humphries low number of targets is also a reflection of his inability to get open/create separation? Giants have a rookie QB and one of the worst OLs in the NFL and yet they can still get the ball to Tate.
Maybe Funchess is just a late bloomer, but his best season (2017) isn't even a top 5 season for Tate. And talk about a low catch% (52% for his career).
Tate's also outproducing Fitz (5 rec/55.6 yds/0.2 TDs per game) and Sanders (4.3 rec/52.8 yds/0.4 TDs per game) so not sure how that's relevant. Though, I'm not sure what age has to do with it as I'd take Tate and his deal over a few of the younger guys that are making more (notably Cooks, Robinson).
How do you think Tate would be doing with the Jets qb's throwing to him? (Remember, Darnold missed some games). At age 26, Crowder is putting up the same numbers with worse qb's. When you consider the lesser guaranteed money hit, I still think he would have made a good signing.
Humphries has 42 targets and he catches better than 75% of the passes thrown to him so yes, he does get open. Sharpe and Brown have 45 to lead the Titans. By comparison, Tate has 50 having missed 4 games. Again, at age 26, he would have been a good signing to grow up with a young qb and less money than Tate.
Fitz is 5 years older than Tate. The fact that he is still at all productive is a tribute to a guy who is a first ballot HOF. He is also a free agent. Remember, Tate signed a 4 year deal that lasts until he hits age 35. Good luck with that.
Humphries is overrated and while he has a nice catch rate, his #s suck. If he was putting up those #s here, we'd be declaring him a waste of money.
55 rec would rank him 12.
Between Travis Kelce and Mike Evans.
Sorry for the confusion.
What a low bar.
The issue with Tate is that he is 31 years old on team that has no hope of being competitive over the next 2 years.
When the Giants are ready to compete, he will be gone.
The Giants are not in a position right to be giving multi-year contracts out to 30+ year old players. The Giants need to find solutions that will be here and be a part of the core for years to come.
Tate is an excellent player for a team that has SB aspirations and need a solid WR.