I think that the demise of the Giants is about Mara’s loyalty and Reese’s duplicity.
A lot of the Maras decisions were based upon their blind loyalty to Eli and their confidence in Jerry Reese. They wanted in the worst way to build a team around Eli and give him a chance to win a third Superbowl. All their planning was tempered by their allegiance to Eli.
The Maras trusted Jerry Reese with the task to accomplish their goals. During the Reese GM administration, the team had a good core. They were good enough to win two Super bowls. They needed to upgrade the lines. Reese drafted poorly or drafted for skill position players. Despite Coughlin’s support of the Reese drafting I do not think that they were on the same page. There was no sense of team building. Often the players who were drafted did not fit the schemes employed. For example, you do not draft finesse OL if you are running a power run blocking scheme.
But this was not Reese’s worst transgression. I believe that Reese intentionally sabotaged the 2015 team. The most significant free agent signings in 2015 were, Shane Vereen, Dwayne Harris, Marshall Newhouse, and JT Thomas. The Giants needed so much help on the team and especially both lines. Newhouse was their only answer to improve both lines. Reese could say that there was no CAP money available, but everyone knows that the team can create CAP space.
The circumstantial evidence supports that Reese wanted Coughlin to fail so that he could bring in his own coach. Reese was never given the respect that he may have deserved for building the championship teams, he was always second fiddle to Coughlin. Reese wanted to succeed on his own merits and wanted his handpicked coach.
To further support my theory, in 2016, the Giants, after Coughlin was fired, found all this money to sign; Janoris Jenkins, Damon Harrison, Olivier Vernon, and resigned JPP. Reese clearly was supporting McAdoo and wanted him to succeed. Reese was attempting to fill holes that had existed for many years in this one season.
The failure of the 2015 team and the selection of McAdoo to replace Coughlin doomed the team until this time.
The Maras, to their chagrin, acknowledged the mismanagement of the team and fired Reese and McAdoo. This is where the Maras loyalty to Eli hurt the team. The Maras brought in Gettleman to overhaul the team, but they hamstrung Gettleman by having two divergent goals, play Eli and attempt to win, yet rebuild. This is like being partially pregnant. The Maras felt that they did not do enough to help Eli win during his prime, so they were going to support him to the end.
I believe that Gettelman’s selection of Barkley was another concession to Eli. Get him a great back in lieu of a QB. The management’s line that Barkley was a generational player was a disingenuous way to protect Eli and to justify a pick that made no sense on a rebuilding team.
Even this year the Maras have not given up the ghost. They kept Eli despite selecting Daniel Jones, and gave him his severance package, which was confusing at best. The Giants could have used the money to improve the team.
So, I am cautiously optimistic that the Giants will improve. The Maras are good owners and want to win. They allowed their loyalty and trust cloud their judgement.
The Giants are in a rebuild mode and have satisfied their obligation to Eli.
They are starting to implement a cohesive plan without conflicting dual objectives.
It may take a couple of years but I think that the Giants will be back to a perennially contenders.
Turns out though he was right.
Why? Going into the season it was 50/50 at best that Manning would start all 16 games. No way Gettleman was making any moves to simply please Manning
I believe that Mara thought Eli had one more run in him, and why shouldn't he? In 2014 and 2015 he threw for 9000 yards and 65 TD's. Going into 2016 he was 35 years old.
The failure was not recognizing how rotten the core was around him. The failure was making the mistake that the coaching was the bigger problem than the roster construction.
As the Knight said in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade: "He chose.... poorly"
It was a miscalculation. Not a conspiracy. Reese was not negligent in the end, he was just incompetent.
Reese at least took the heat with annual bye week pressers. When is the Gettleman presser schedule this week?
McAdoo was a tool.
Shurmur is boring.
Coughlin was a winner.
That is all I know.
I believe that Mara thought Eli had one more run in him, and why shouldn't he? In 2014 and 2015 he threw for 9000 yards and 65 TD's. Going into 2016 he was 35 years old.
The failure was not recognizing how rotten the core was around him. The failure was making the mistake that the coaching was the bigger problem than the roster construction.
As the Knight said in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade: "He chose.... poorly"
It was a miscalculation. Not a conspiracy. Reese was not negligent in the end, he was just incompetent.
Incompetent sounds a bit harsh. I mean - he was the guy that drafted A. Bradshaw, OBJ, JPP, Hakeem Nicks, signed Victor Cruz as an undrafted FA. He may not have been THE reason for 2 SB wins, but he definitely played a part.
I would argue he was definitely unlucky. Who knows how much longer the Giants would have been good if not for injuries to Nicks, Phillips, Wilson, Chad Jones, etc.
He definitely had a lot of misses. But there was a clear thought process behind each pick that backfired on him. Flowers, Engram, Apple, etc.
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It's been said often in the league that franchise QB's, TRUE franchise QB's, are incredibly hard to come by so you don't let them walk out the door.
I believe that Mara thought Eli had one more run in him, and why shouldn't he? In 2014 and 2015 he threw for 9000 yards and 65 TD's. Going into 2016 he was 35 years old.
The failure was not recognizing how rotten the core was around him. The failure was making the mistake that the coaching was the bigger problem than the roster construction.
As the Knight said in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade: "He chose.... poorly"
It was a miscalculation. Not a conspiracy. Reese was not negligent in the end, he was just incompetent.
Incompetent sounds a bit harsh. I mean - he was the guy that drafted A. Bradshaw, OBJ, JPP, Hakeem Nicks, signed Victor Cruz as an undrafted FA. He may not have been THE reason for 2 SB wins, but he definitely played a part.
I would argue he was definitely unlucky. Who knows how much longer the Giants would have been good if not for injuries to Nicks, Phillips, Wilson, Chad Jones, etc.
He definitely had a lot of misses. But there was a clear thought process behind each pick that backfired on him. Flowers, Engram, Apple, etc.
I think Reese really shined at finding freak athletes at the skill positions, but struggled to rebuild the core of the team, the offensive and defensive lines.
Incompetent may sound harsh, but he just seemed to me to never be able to rebuild the team.
He was exemplary with complimenting an already established core, but could not build one himself.
He was trying to change the philosophy of the way the team was constructed.
Reese has not said a word. Handled his firing with the same dignity that he did his job. The guy always behaved with class
He just needed assistants who were better at evaluating OL. But as it was, he still won 2 SBs
He was trying to change the philosophy of the way the team was constructed.
The interesting part of what you're saying is that there are many here (at BBI) that really want the Giants to move in that direction.
Some would say that he might have been ahead of his time in his thinking and that it directly contrasts with that of DG would (I think) would like to get big on the OL and DL thus emphasizing size and strength.
To some - Reece may have actually been ahead of his time.
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towards "basketball on grass" seemed to fly in the face of his coaching staff, and what they had established (prior to McAdoo).
He was trying to change the philosophy of the way the team was constructed.
The interesting part of what you're saying is that there are many here (at BBI) that really want the Giants to move in that direction.
Some would say that he might have been ahead of his time in his thinking and that it directly contrasts with that of DG would (I think) would like to get big on the OL and DL thus emphasizing size and strength.
To some - Reece may have actually been ahead of his time.
Perhaps. Not beyond the realm of possibility. But I can't say one way or the other. At the end of the day, his last 9 or 10 drafts speak for themselves, mostly all of those players are out of the league. If any were lighting it up on teams that were built that way now, it would give me pause in that regard.
This is utter bullshit. If you're going to credit TC for early personnel decisions, you don't get to blame Reese entirely for the later ones. Reese's drafts speak for themselves, they were pretty horrible after 2007, but to imply that he purposely hurt the Giants is one of the worst things I have ever read here, and I read Simo threads.
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That the OBJ trade wasn't also a concession to Eli because of Beckham's outspokenness about Eli being done
Turns out though he was right.
Why? Going into the season it was 50/50 at best that Manning would start all 16 games. No way Gettleman was making any moves to simply please Manning
I disagree. The body of work over the last couple of years has been to please Eli, doubly so since he was sat down for Geno Smith.
This is my opinion based upon my observations
If you want to dispute my facts please do
this is one of my favorite religions on BBI.
Just because they the string of decisions that followed as to who to hire was complete clown show does not mean that TC should have kept his job.
The results under TC were more than enough to rightly cost him his job. Just to get out in front of the standard retort -- yes, a lot of it was personnel related. And he was firmly a part of the personnel process.
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and injected all that defensive free agent talent with him as HC, there just may have been a third run.
this is one of my favorite religions on BBI.
Just because they the string of decisions that followed as to who to hire was complete clown show does not mean that TC should have kept his job.
The results under TC were more than enough to rightly cost him his job. Just to get out in front of the standard retort -- yes, a lot of it was personnel related. And he was firmly a part of the personnel process.
Let's look at some facts:
The offense under Coughlin, Coughlin's offense make no mistake (they were still going deep), was 6th in the league in 2015.
The defense was ranked 30th in the league.
b]The 2015 New York Giants lost 7 games where they were either tied or had the lead with two minutes remaining.[/b] The finished 6-10.
After the spending spree on defense after Coughlin was fired, the defense jumped from 30th in the league to 2nd.
Meanwhile, the offense under McAdoo dropped from 6th to 26th.
Let that bounce around a little while.
Religion indeed.
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In comment 14677835 rocco8112 said:
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and injected all that defensive free agent talent with him as HC, there just may have been a third run.
this is one of my favorite religions on BBI.
Just because they the string of decisions that followed as to who to hire was complete clown show does not mean that TC should have kept his job.
The results under TC were more than enough to rightly cost him his job. Just to get out in front of the standard retort -- yes, a lot of it was personnel related. And he was firmly a part of the personnel process.
Let's look at some facts:
The offense under Coughlin, Coughlin's offense make no mistake (they were still going deep), was 6th in the league in 2015.
The defense was ranked 30th in the league.
b]The 2015 New York Giants lost 7 games where they were either tied or had the lead with two minutes remaining.[/b] The finished 6-10.
After the spending spree on defense after Coughlin was fired, the defense jumped from 30th in the league to 2nd.
Meanwhile, the offense under McAdoo dropped from 6th to 26th.
Let that bounce around a little while.
Religion indeed.
The entire NFL disagrees with you - NO ONE has offered TC a head coaching job. It is possible to make the right decision to get rid of someone and the wrong decision on the replacement. It's not at all uncommon and doesn't invalidate the correct decision to get rid of the original person, only the process in place for identifying the proper replacement.
But go ahead and predict another 10-6 record while you claim to be the voice of reason.
Religion indeed.
Either after 2013 everyone should have been kept to try and retool or everyone should have been gone (Reese, Coughlin & Eli) - this was unlikely, so should have just kept everyone in place.
Everything became disjointed & still is.
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In comment 14677835 rocco8112 said:
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and injected all that defensive free agent talent with him as HC, there just may have been a third run.
this is one of my favorite religions on BBI.
Just because they the string of decisions that followed as to who to hire was complete clown show does not mean that TC should have kept his job.
The results under TC were more than enough to rightly cost him his job. Just to get out in front of the standard retort -- yes, a lot of it was personnel related. And he was firmly a part of the personnel process.
Let's look at some facts:
The offense under Coughlin, Coughlin's offense make no mistake (they were still going deep), was 6th in the league in 2015.
The defense was ranked 30th in the league.
b]The 2015 New York Giants lost 7 games where they were either tied or had the lead with two minutes remaining.[/b] The finished 6-10.
After the spending spree on defense after Coughlin was fired, the defense jumped from 30th in the league to 2nd.
Meanwhile, the offense under McAdoo dropped from 6th to 26th.
Let that bounce around a little while.
Religion indeed.
should we go through the detail of the role that coaching played in losing 7 games in the last 2 minutes?
the assumption, like the personnel situation, is that whatever the reasons were, they were NOT TC's fault.
If a team loses 7 games in the last 2 minutes, that's an indictment of a coaching staff. Not a defense of it.
It's pretty clear what changed. It shouldn't be hard to see.
Did I summarize the OP correctly? I hope not, because that would be a really absurd opinion.
evidence that the season *WASN'T* a statistical outlier...
again, it's not a defense he was handed. He was involved in personnel. He helped make the mess.
Don't you know the way this works? If it was good, it was Tom Coughlin's sheer brilliance at work. If it was bad, it was poor Tom Coughlin being kneecapped by that dastardly Jerry Reese.
All the credit for successes, none of the blame for failures. Still a sweet gig after all these years.
You can talk about St. Tommy all you want. Those are the results, and it's clear what changed.
On offense, McAdoo replaced Coughlin
On defense, the roster was upgraded bigtime because there was no change in coaching or philosophy.
The mistake wasn't firing the coach (and GM). The mistakes were who they hired afterward.
But let's move on now please.
It's pretty clear what changed. It shouldn't be hard to see.
The schedule and the head coach?
The 10-6 thing is a throwaway to remind everyone that you don't have the bona fides to pretend to be the voice of reason around here.
But the fact remains that NO ONE has offered TC a HC job. The entire league agreed with the Giants' decision to let him go. That's pretty obvious to everyone but you.
This is my opinion based upon my observations
If you want to dispute my facts please do
What? You don't get to post unprovable, defamatory attacks, and then ask those who call you out on it for facts! You admitted you have no facts to prove your thesis, but that didn't stop you from accusing a GM who was at least part architect of 2 SB champs of sabotaging an NFL season.
Even so, none of your "facts" pan out. In 2015, the Giants went into the FA signing period with $24 mill in cap space to spend, in 2016, they had $53.7 mill. Doesn't take a genius to figure out how they got better players in '16, but that is probably why Archer missed it.
You can talk about St. Tommy all you want. Those are the results, and it's clear what changed.
On offense As HEAD COACH, McAdoo replaced Coughlin
On offense, Sullivan replaced McAdoo
On defense, the roster was upgraded bigtime because there was no change in coaching or philosophy.
FTFY.
You can talk about St. Tommy all you want. Those are the results, and it's clear what changed.
On offense, McAdoo replaced Coughlin
On defense, the roster was upgraded bigtime because there was no change in coaching or philosophy.
McAdoo as it turned out wasn't the right guy, but Coughlin was given plenty of tools to work with over his tenure with the team - it was time for him to go. This idea that Reese somehow fucked him over with the personnel is ridiculous, TC didn't perform and deserved to be let go. It's past time that everyone come to grips with that.
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Defense: 30th to 2nd.
You can talk about St. Tommy all you want. Those are the results, and it's clear what changed.
On offense, McAdoo replaced Coughlin
On defense, the roster was upgraded bigtime because there was no change in coaching or philosophy.
We're literally talking about 3 players - Jenkins, Vernon, and Snacks. You don't honestly believe that 3 defensive players had more of an effect on the team than the head coach did, do you? The TEAM as a whole became a playoff contender immediately after Coughlin was let go with a significant overlap of the roster.
McAdoo as it turned out wasn't the right guy, but Coughlin was given plenty of tools to work with over his tenure with the team - it was time for him to go. This idea that Reese somehow fucked him over with the personnel is ridiculous, TC didn't perform and deserved to be let go. It's past time that everyone come to grips with that.
It also wasn't a situation where was just given or not given things. He was a part of the draft and personnel process.
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In comment 14678608 Britt in VA said:
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Defense: 30th to 2nd.
You can talk about St. Tommy all you want. Those are the results, and it's clear what changed.
On offense, McAdoo replaced Coughlin
On defense, the roster was upgraded bigtime because there was no change in coaching or philosophy.
We're literally talking about 3 players - Jenkins, Vernon, and Snacks. You don't honestly believe that 3 defensive players had more of an effect on the team than the head coach did, do you? The TEAM as a whole became a playoff contender immediately after Coughlin was let go with a significant overlap of the roster.
McAdoo as it turned out wasn't the right guy, but Coughlin was given plenty of tools to work with over his tenure with the team - it was time for him to go. This idea that Reese somehow fucked him over with the personnel is ridiculous, TC didn't perform and deserved to be let go. It's past time that everyone come to grips with that.
It also wasn't a situation where was just given or not given things. He was a part of the draft and personnel process.
TC only picked the good players. The bad players were Reese's choices. If TC had total autonomy the Giants would have gone 10-6, every single year. Just ask Britt.
Reese was fired because bad drafting put the team into a deep deep hole.
McAdoo was fired because he wasn't ready for the HC role. I'm not even sure if he was ready for the OC role. I don't think Shurmur is ready for the HC role either btw.
The Mara's do not have blind faith in Eli. This diatribe needs to stop. The Mara's have known it's time to move on. Shurmur knew it's time to move on. Mac knew. Reese knew. Etc etc. Hell even Eli knows it's time. That doesn't mean you rush to a decision. They didn't pick up a QB sooner because there wasn't one they liked enough to take the shot on. It's just that simple. As it stands now, the best QB pick from 2 drafts ago is looking like the 2nd rounder and not one of the OMG Giants have to get xxxxx QB in the 1st round picks. I don't think Darnold, Mayfield, or Rosen are going to make it. Ironically, Lamar Jackson is starting to look like the best of the bunch. Why? It's a crap shoot when you are just picking high because they are rated high. Giants took their time to pick they guy they liked. Plain and simple. Why do so many insist on some kind of a coin flip on the top pick?
This is football, not a soap opera.