So it's been long rumored that the Astros were stealing signs. So much so that the Yankees went to this thing where they kept changing the signs based on signals in their hat (and shut out the Astros in Game 1 of the ALCS).
The Athletic had an article about the Astros sign stealing in 2017.
Anyway, the Astros are an unlikeable group of dicks before this and even moreso now. Jomboy had a good example of it on his twitter. Take a look. As he says, screw AJ Hinch.
https://twitter.com/Jomboy_/status/1194348775965437952?s=20 - (
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Those are clear as day and there's no disputing the pattern. loud bang for offspeed, nothing for fastballs.
Only thing I'd like to see is a) make sure these videos are not doctored (I don't think they are, but they should be authenticated in the investigation) and b) how do these bangs sound to the batter. Where was this recording done, these bangs sound so disruptive in an MLB stadium, how does everyone not notice?
I don't see how players are even ok with this. It's worse than spy gate in theory because who knows how much the players even knew about spy gate. that could (in theory) have been all on Belichick and his staff.
What the Astros were doing every single player who had an at-bat and had the change up/off speed pitch communicated to them was directly cheating.
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Only thing I'd like to see is a) make sure these videos are not doctored (I don't think they are, but they should be authenticated in the investigation) and b) how do these bangs sound to the batter. Where was this recording done, these bangs sound so disruptive in an MLB stadium, how does everyone not notice?
I don't see how players are even ok with this. It's worse than spy gate in theory because who knows how much the players even knew about spy gate. that could (in theory) have been all on Belichick and his staff.
What the Astros were doing every single player who had an at-bat and had the change up/off speed pitch communicated to them was directly cheating.
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Good point. Every player found to play a role should be suspended the equivalent of a PED suspension. They can stagger when the players serve so that no more than 3 are suspended at a time!
They didn't do it all the time. Speculation is that a)some games, they couldn't decode the signs b)they kept it around for when they felt like they needed the help c)they thought it would be much harder to prove if it wasn't too often.
I mean, teams were on to them. The Red Sox and Indians both accused them of it, and the Yankees this year said they were whistling to indicate pitches to the batter.
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LOL, that's the smoking gun. Need to take all of them out back and shoot them.
A lot of what I've read says they may not have even broken any official rule. Using video surveilance to steal signs was not made illegal until this past February.
I doubt anyone gets a lifetime ban, definitely shady shit and unethical (and illegal now), but you don't get lifetime bans for that IMO. I read the commissioner has latitude to dole out punishments at his discretion based on some vague league discipline policies and would probably use that, but IMO not as severe as you are insinuating.
unless the people I've read with that opinion are wrong.
Yep...
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they'll be punished - but mostly because of the optics, I'm just saying I wouldn't expect multiple lifetime bans like the other poster suggested.
it's sort of like PEDs in baseball pre 1998, there was no official rule against using electronic surveillance until February 2019.
This is from an SI article in November 2018, so right after last years world series:
Among the developments that are slowing baseball games to a crawl: the proliferation of electronic surveillance. Many clubs now have as many as six high magnification cameras installed in their home ballpark specifically designed to steal signs from opponents.
Here’s how quickly things have changed, according to a Dodgers source. Three years ago, if you walked into the Dodgers’ video room behind their Dodger Stadium dugout you would likely have found Zack Greinke pouring over video of opposing hitters, looking for any edge he could find to match up his stuff against their weakness. This year, if you walked into the same room you would have found a small army of 20-something analysts in polo shirts and slacks pouring over video from the in-house cameras, like the security room at a Vegas casino. Most teams train their cameras on the catcher, the pitcher (from several angles), the third base coach and the dugout.
These cameras are not used for training purposes. They are used expressly for stealing signs and deciphering “tells” from pitchers.
“We’ve reached a point,” said one club executive, “where the attractiveness of the sport as an entertainment option has been lost in the quest to find every incremental edge. And video has changed things rapidly. I’m increasingly thinking something has to be done.”...
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they were using the electronic devices (apple watches) in the dugout which was already prohibited.
I don't think the Astros used the video in the dugout.
It's sort of funny if you read articles about this, like I said it reminds me of the PED era. everyone felt like "yeah you shouldn't do that" but there was no official rule against it.
from a NY times article about the Yankees accusations against the Red Sox from September 2017:
But such information has to be rushed to the dugout on foot so it can be relayed to players on the field — a runner on second, the batter at the plate — while the information is still relevant. The Red Sox admitted to league investigators that they were able to significantly shorten this communications chain by using electronics. In what mimicked the rhythm of a double play, the information would rapidly go from video personnel to a trainer to the players....
exactly. Not illegal.
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Basically, just a few feet from the dugout.
exactly. Not illegal.
Something for the naysayers to keep in mind- unless the commish decides to take actions against players and gets the MLBPA involved, MLB doesn't even have to find a rule violation. They just have to find that the Astros (and any other teams) went outside norms and took unfair advantage.
Owners and teams operate under a different set of rules than players do. Where players can appeal and fight, teams are basically bound by commmish decisions- they can ask the commish to reconsider, but they can't take it to arbitration or other similar actions.
Remember when the commish fined the Red Sox for using Apple watches in the dugout? That was back in 2017- and the supposed rule that people are making a big deal about regarding electronics use wasn't put in place until AFTER that rule.
Note VERY carefully in the article linked below that MLB specifically found that use of electronics to steal signs was in violation of the rules.
The commish also noted that when the Yanks complained about the Sox conduct, the Sox stopped the use of the Apple phone. In the Astros situation, numerous teams have complained about their sign stealing and it is quite clear that the Astros never stopped.
I think that when you compare the evidence of what appears to be a limited use of an Apple Watch by the Red Sox and sustained, multi-year efforts by the Astros to steal signs and gain an advantage, I don't think MLB has any choice but to hand down extreme punishment on the Astros. They have apparently repeatedly lied about their conduct, engaged in years of efforts, and gained a significant advantage.
IMO, it would be difficult for MLB to do anything less than a lengthy or permanent ban for numerous Houston front-office personnel, significant fines and likely loss of draft picks to deter any future conduct.
Don't be surprised if anyone involved- even if no longer with the Astros sees singiifcant punishment as well.
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Seems like the Astros violated more ambiguous (and in some cases "unwritten") rules.
If the punishments are reasonable, I don't think you'll see much fight, if they are extreme as you and many others suggest, I think the punished could fight it. And I'm not sure MLB has solid grounds to win. Not sure.
And I'm not suggesting what the Astros did was ok. Just trying to view it from unemotional standpoint.
Seems like the Astros violated more ambiguous (and in some cases "unwritten") rules.
If the punishments are reasonable, I don't think you'll see much fight, if they are extreme as you and many others suggest, I think the punished could fight it. And I'm not sure MLB has solid grounds to win. Not sure.
And I'm not suggesting what the Astros did was ok. Just trying to view it from unemotional standpoint.
I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but it appears that you are not aware of what the Astros are accused of.
The Astros allegedly had a VIDEO SCREEN installed in the hallway outside the dugout that showed the catchers signals. In turn, the information was relayed to the on-field players by various means- banging on a can, whistles, etc.
I am not sure how you have concluded that this does not involve "electronic equipment."
The Red Sox were penalized for having someone in the dugout with an Apple Watch used to relay pitch calls. The Astros went a step further (a marathon further?) by allegedly installing a video monitor outside the dugout to capture signs.
In another factor, the Red Sox allegedly only used the Apple Watch on a very limited basis. In constrast, the Astros allegedly appear to have used this system for YEARS.
The Red Sox allegedly stopped the use of the Apple Watch when the Yanks complained. The Astros have allegedly used this system for years, denied using it.
Now an email exists that asked their scouts to set up cameras in taking the scheme an extra step further- a FACT that is now known, not an allegation.
Assuming the remaining allegations are true- and the email casts doubt on any denials by the Astros- the scheme involved the heavy use of electronics, took place over a lengthy period of time, and despite protests and allegations by teams, continued without end.
The other piece that you do not seem aware of (despite my raising it in my prior email), TEAMS are NOT allowed to challenge actions by the commish. As part of the franchise rules, they are bound by those decisions, cannot arbitrate them. IF MLB comes down hard on the Astros and their execs, there is not much the Astros can do. They can't sue MLB, they can't arbitration- only appeal for mercy to the commish. Not sure where you got this idea that those punished can fight it.
If players are involved, them the MLBPA will get involved- but team personnel don't have those protections.
the Astros did not put the electronic equipment INSIDE the dugout. 5 feet from the dugout, in the hallway between the clubhouse and the dugout, right outside the steps of the dugout, is not INSIDE the dugout.
Read the other article I linked earlier, here is an excerpt
But such information has to be rushed to the dugout on foot so it can be relayed to players on the field — a runner on second, the batter at the plate — while the information is still relevant. The Red Sox admitted to league investigators that they were able to significantly shorten this communications chain by using electronics. In what mimicked the rhythm of a double play, the information would rapidly go from video personnel to a trainer to the players....
not sure where he disconnect is.
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Seems like the Astros violated more ambiguous (and in some cases "unwritten") rules.
If the punishments are reasonable, I don't think you'll see much fight, if they are extreme as you and many others suggest, I think the punished could fight it. And I'm not sure MLB has solid grounds to win. Not sure.
And I'm not suggesting what the Astros did was ok. Just trying to view it from unemotional standpoint.
You are trying too hard. Go back and read the article I linked above and read the EXACT quote from MLB. In fact, I'll save you the time- here it is:
"Major League Baseball Regulations do, however, prohibit the use of electronic equipment during games and state that no such equipment 'may be used for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying information designed to give a Club an advantage."
There is no distinction in there about "in the dugout." You are trying to create gray area where there is none. The precedent is clear and unambiguous.
From what I have seen the allegations and videos are not from this season.
From what I have seen the allegations and videos are not from this season.
There are TONS of videos out there from this season
From what I have seen the allegations and videos are not from this season.
Give it up on.
The Red Sox got punished in 2017. 2017. Way before any 2019 rule you are grasping onto. The way you are defending the Astros is silly. MLB isn't going to split hairs to go easy on the Astros. They told teams back in 2017 no more issues or the penalties would be severe.
The Astros also have been involved in this sign stealing for 3 years- at least. The Red Sox got fined major money in 2017 for supposed short time actions.
Your defense is not any sort of unemotional view like you claim. You are going to extreme lenghts to deny the obvious.
When the Red Sox were punished there WAS ALREADY A RULE against electronic equipment in the dugout.
period.
the Astros knew this rule and did not use electronic equipment in the dugout.
It's that simple. I never said what they did was ok, they should be punished, I just don't think their punishment will be as scorched earth severe as some of you (mostly Yankees fans it seems).
No one even got a lifetime ban from spy gate, but some of you expect "multiple life time bans" from something that is similar.
that is my only disagreement. Every single article on this topic mentions that stealing signs in baseball is not illegal, only using electronic equipment to do so is illegal and that language was tightened up in February of 2019. And the ironic thing is MLB only even tightened up the rules on it - not because it's cheating, but because they felt like the whole process of stealing the signs and relaying them was impacting pace of play.
So, again, no, not defending Houston at all, they cheated, plain and simple and there should be consequences, my point is some of you might be disappointed with the punishment.
And if you're not, and the league handles this like the Black Sox scandal, great, you get what you want, I don't care about the Astros.
I agree with you that it's unlikely we see any lifetime bans (although, given John Coppolella's lifetime ban, I think they deserve some), but I do expect some lengthy suspensions.
The league has a mountain of evidence of wrongdoing here.
It's comparable to spy gate to me because they were video taping signals in an effort to improve their competitive advantage. both outed by a disgruntled former teammate/personnel who didn't want that unfair advantage used against them.
The fact you don't know what was on the tapes for spy gate is basically irrelevant since for the Patriots it was a timing thing - just weeks before being caught MLB issued a memo reinforcing rules against the practice.
In the Astros case, the rules against it were less clear IMO. Until 2/19, so if, like most articles say the investigation is for the 2017 playoffs, it's a little bit of a gray area the details around the rules, but most articles I have seen say teams who break the rules can be punished with loss of draft picks and international pool money.
I think because the front office was aware MLB can be more heavy handed than that language, but still I don't expect multiple lifetime bans. that is my point.
To me, it's pretty clear at what point something crosses over into the obvious cheating realm, and it doesn't take a fine-tooth combing of the rules to get there.
To me, it's pretty clear at what point something crosses over into the obvious cheating realm, and it doesn't take a fine-tooth combing of the rules to get there.
my reference to the Braves was not inclusive of the lifetime ban to Copp. That slipped my mind. I was referring to the severity of the real things that got taken away from the org. Suits can be replaced.
bceagle05 : 11/16/2019 9:14 pm : link : reply
between Astros execs and scouts regarding ways they can cheat, according to The Athletic. People are gonna get lifetime bans over this.
this is it. I do not expect multiple life time bans.
who knows, maybe MLB decides to make an example and they do give people the death penalty, but I don't expect it will happen. loss of draft picks, loss of IFA money, fines, and suspensions is my guess.
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There's now an email trail
bceagle05 : 11/16/2019 9:14 pm : link : reply
between Astros execs and scouts regarding ways they can cheat, according to The Athletic. People are gonna get lifetime bans over this.
this is it. I do not expect multiple life time bans.
who knows, maybe MLB decides to make an example and they do give people the death penalty, but I don't expect it will happen. loss of draft picks, loss of IFA money, fines, and suspensions is my guess.
As someone who wants to see the Astros get pummeled, I care incredibly more about the fines/IFA/draft picks than any bans on front office personnel.
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But it was just a dream haha. That wouldn't happen.
Which is leading to a lot of speculation regarding the identity of this whistleblower.
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Hoos have got to start getting some scoring from the new guys. All but four points last night were scored by Diakite, Key, Huff, and Clark.
I agree - let each fan determine for his own mind whether he or she is going to discount the championship in question. Rather see the penalties weighted toward hurting the offenders going forward (and more importantly, deter any future bullshit) than take an imaginary eraser to something you can't make people forget.
Hoos have got to start getting some scoring from the new guys. All but four points last night were scored by Diakite, Key, Huff, and Clark.
They've got to get keyed up for that. Not every team is going to shoot 25% from outside. Not unlike Edwards for Purdue last year, sometimes you're going to face a hot hand. I'm not worried, UVM couldn't have given them that sort of game in February. Defense was still strong and they were moving the ball well. I'll be worried if none of the kids emerges to be at least an 8-10 point a game guy by mid-January.