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Defense First

Daniel in MI : 11/12/2019 11:36 pm

There's been a lot of thinking on here of late about how to rebuild the team, and where we need to improve. We all know the team is painful to watch, the O makes too many mistakes, the OL is a disaster, and the D is historically bad.

As I pondered my experience as a Giants fan, I came to the realization that if I were the owners, I would want to bring in someone who will put emphasis on defense. Not just because of the obvious -- they're horrific and D keeps you in games -- but more fundamentally because it's the NY Giants tradition, pride, and culture. Different teams have different identities. Giants tradition and identity is built around defense. Our best players generally were on D - Huff, LT, Carson, Banks, Strahan, Tuck, Osi.

The Giants are associated with LBs almost more than any other position or team when you think of the lore. Hell even in the 70s we managed to cobble together a set of LBs that included Carson, Van Pelt, Kelly, and Kyle Rote, Jr. That was a pretty good LB core on a bad team. Seeing the LBs we put out now hurts to watch. Then seeing SF, Dallas, and other teams with LBs flying around? It stings me as a Giants fan in a way seeing a great offense doesn't. Like seeing your ex with her new man. "We had good LBs that flew around, hit people, and made plays...those were good times."

Perhaps more than most other NFL teams' fans, Giants fans take pride in D. A team's history gives the fans the stories they pass down. It was for NYG that the first chant of "De-Fense" went out, when other teams put all their best players on O. While some players on O are legends here, I think NYG fans appreciate a strong D and most of our legends are there.

So, while it was a truism that "offense brings fans, D brings championships," for THIS franchise I think D can bring fans, too. Of course we want an functioning offense. But seeing a team with our defensive tradition be such defensive patsies? Seeing our D so useless, so feckless, so daunted, and so bullied is somehow worse than just the losing. It's an insult. It's disrespectful to both the history of the team, and to the fans who appreciate good defense and were raised on it.

I fully support getting a competent OL to help DJ and SB. Hell add a number 1 WR, go nuts. But, as we look toward the future I implore the ownership and management to restore the identity of the franchise by returning to the tradition of this team. For the fans' sake - fix this defense so we can be Big Blue once again. Let opposing QBs look across the LOS and cower. Let them call timeout because they don't know where our fearsome pass rusher is. Let the words "What hurts? Everything..." ring on opposing sidelines again. Let's have players that can just go out there like a bunch of crazed dogs and have some fun. Because if not, "Hey [Mara], you better hope I never get back in there, because I'm going to BEEP your BEEPing BEEP!"
The 1986 and 1990  
Breeze_94 : 11/12/2019 11:43 pm : link
NY Giants mean absolutely nothing when it comes to building a team in 2020. The game has changed.

The goal of this offseason should be to make sure we can protect our young QB and open running lanes for our franchise RB. That is this teams most visible path to success or as they say "Closest to the money"

That being said, no way they should pass on Chase Young if he is available.

Noo --- you need offense too- you need both  
giantstock : 11/12/2019 11:46 pm : link
Daniel Jones MUST BE preserved. He's been sacked 22 times in the last 4 games. What are you going to say next year when you watch him in street clothes as we roll out Tanney as the starting QB?

Secondly, the GMEN invested in a supposed generational RB. The only way to exploit his super supreme talents is to give him an OLINE. Otherwise you've deliberately drastically limited one of the most supreme talents over the past decade or longer.
We need  
TommyWiseau : 11/13/2019 1:12 am : link
A premier pass rusher and Offensive Lineman. Draft Oline, sign role players and either bring in Yannick from Jacksonville or draft Young if we are lucky enough to have him available when we pick. Kid is a stud, he has the potential to be the next great pass rusher in this league. Look at what Bosa has done for that defense in San Fran
I would draft  
TommyWiseau : 11/13/2019 1:14 am : link
Young, sign Yannick or resign Golden. Draft best Oline available in round 2 and round 3 (if we get that comp pick, prefer a C and a LT). Bring in Conklin to play RT. We have the assets to address both pass rusher and Oline. Get it fucking done
Kyle Rote, Jr.  
Jim in Tampa : 11/13/2019 4:49 am : link
Did you mean to list someone else?

The Giants' LBs of the '70s included Carson, Van Pelt and Kelley as you suggest, but not Kyle Rote, Jr.
Good post  
Les in TO : 11/13/2019 5:33 am : link
The biggest gap for this teams success is an identity and attitude on defense. we need help on the offensive line too; but we need leaders and guys who can make plays on D. And for those who say the game has changed look at the super bowl last year

Gettleman got rid of a bunch of productive vets in his decision to tear down and renovate. The verdict on the replacements has been very mixed and they often look confused out there. New coach and new pass rushers will hopefully make a difference
RE: We need  
Giantimistic : 11/13/2019 6:28 am : link
In comment 14678201 TommyWiseau said:
Quote:
A premier pass rusher and Offensive Lineman. Draft Oline, sign role players and either bring in Yannick from Jacksonville or draft Young if we are lucky enough to have him available when we pick. Kid is a stud, he has the potential to be the next great pass rusher in this league. Look at what Bosa has done for that defense in San Fran


I would sign up for this.
You can compete in the NFL with a great offense  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 11/13/2019 7:28 am : link
Rules are stacked against you on Defense and even the great ones get beat up. Look no further than the Ravens beating up the Pats just recently and the Chiefs making it to the AFC championship with a terrible defense.
Our D is a disgrace.  
penkap75 : 11/13/2019 7:45 am : link
Even with a porous O-line, 26 getting no yards and DJ turning it over every other time he fumbles, the O is still putting up yards and scoring points.

The D is a shitshow and the primary reason we are losing.
I agree ...  
Spider56 : 11/13/2019 7:57 am : link
We have a QB and a RB ... Get a couple of OTs, a free safety and quality LBs ... but all will still be for naught without better coached. All of them must go.
RE: Good post  
giantstock : 11/13/2019 7:59 am : link
In comment 14678211 Les in TO said:
Quote:
The biggest gap for this teams success is an identity and attitude on defense. we need help on the offensive line too; but we need leaders and guys who can make plays on D. And for those who say the game has changed look at the super bowl last year

Gettleman got rid of a bunch of productive vets in his decision to tear down and renovate. The verdict on the replacements has been very mixed and they often look confused out there. New coach and new pass rushers will hopefully make a difference


Looking at teh super bowl I alos see the Pats ran for 154 years on 32 caries. And for the 3 game sin the playoffs Brady was sacked once. The GMen have no running game and Jones has been getting crushed. We have an identity on the OLIne right now -- and it certainly is a lousy one.
While I do not disagree  
Gman11 : 11/13/2019 8:00 am : link
with your post, the Giants haven't been known for their linebackers in about 30 years.
RE: Our D is a disgrace.  
giantstock : 11/13/2019 8:03 am : link
In comment 14678252 penkap75 said:
Quote:
Even with a porous O-line, 26 getting no yards and DJ turning it over every other time he fumbles, the O is still putting up yards and scoring points.

The D is a shitshow and the primary reason we are losing.


How much longer can Jones take this beating? It's not about the number of points. It's also about preserving your QB. ANd to follow that point, part of preserving and protecting him is that you need a running game too. Jone stake it?

You get beat up enough eventually your QB will develop "happy feet."
The offense isn't great...  
BamaBlue : 11/13/2019 8:05 am : link
but it's good enough to win. The problem with the 2019 Giants is the defense and especially linebackers. It's the Achilles heel of this team. They are constantly being kicked up and down the field every week.
Offense first...  
M.S. : 11/13/2019 8:13 am : link

...because a ball-controlling, time-consuming offense is a team's best defense. And when your offense jumps out into the lead, it makes your defense even better.

But bottom line: There's no better defense than having your defenders sitting on the sidelines enjoying the view.
Times have changed, Giants identity now are the Browns  
Danny Dimes : 11/13/2019 8:14 am : link
From 2-3 years ago and the current Bengals. Jets are the new king of New York
And the key to all top-notch offenses...  
M.S. : 11/13/2019 8:15 am : link

...is a top-notch offensive line.

And the key to a top-notch offensive line, is a top-notch offensive center.

In other words, after the QB position, the Center is the most important position on the entire team.
RE: The offense isn't great...  
giantstock : 11/13/2019 8:27 am : link
In comment 14678270 BamaBlue said:
Quote:
but it's good enough to win. The problem with the 2019 Giants is the defense and especially linebackers. It's the Achilles heel of this team. They are constantly being kicked up and down the field every week.


The offense is good enough to win what? And at what expense do you want to expose Jones?

The Giants can't run the football and they are exposing their future franchise QB. WHat is it that they are "winning?" You're risking your Qb every time you go out there at a level that shouldn't even be 1 second acceptable. The QB is the most important position on the football field.

And if you don't address the OLINE you aren't allowing Barkley to ht a level where potentially he is the bets in the NFL. What's wrong with having a player like Barkley (when healthy) dominate the NFL? He can't dominate the NFL -- come close to it-- if you don't give him a much better OLINE.

Barkley's strength is probably getting out in open space. If you aren't going to give him the chance to do it then what was the point of drafting him 2nd?

There are multiple ways ot iwn football games. How about the GMEN try to win it by allowing Barkley soem space? He can't be in space if his OLINE sucks. He can't influence teh game wihtout OLIne help. And Jones chance for injury or evenual decling play now hinges on his OLIne. WHy expose him to crud?
RE: And the key to all top-notch offenses...  
Klaatu : 11/13/2019 8:38 am : link
In comment 14678280 M.S. said:
Quote:

...is a top-notch offensive line.

And the key to a top-notch offensive line, is a top-notch offensive center.

In other words, after the QB position, the Center is the most important position on the entire team.


+1000
When I first looked at this post, I thought the idea was to bring in  
GiantBlue : 11/13/2019 8:56 am : link
LT to revamp the D.

I truly believe that to have a good D, you need athletic linebackers to let the DL rush with inpunity and the DB's to handle their lanes/deep part of the field.

The Cowboys and the Eagles have out-athleticized us at the LB position for years and our success against them has showed.

IF it means bringing in one of our illustrious LB's from the past to identify the type of LB we need....I am all for it because the past two GM's seem to have no clue!
LT  
HoustonGiant : 11/13/2019 9:07 am : link
could still destroy an offense on his own, even in today's game.
Can't invest all your prime resources on Offense  
gidiefor : Mod : 11/13/2019 10:01 am : link
we need prime resources spent on Defense too

In the last 8 drafts -- the first pick in the draft has been an offensive player - except for the Eli Apple Pick in 2016 -- and he's off the team

Defense - should definitely get a share of the priority pick -

This would be a very different team with Chubb and Allen on the roster

Going with Dexter Lawrence and Baker as extra first rd picks was good -- but I want to see Defense become more of a priority. You are not going to consistently win without a Defense that can hold the other team's scoring down - period -- end of story
A few points  
Daniel in MI : 11/13/2019 12:20 pm : link
I am not saying ignore the OL. Or that O isn't important. I'm saying the soul of the Giants team is D, and what pisses me off the most as a fan is seeing the once proud, D flounder.

We have to improve there. I'm saying maybe the next coach (assuming we make a change) should be a D guy. And not a DC/HC, he should be a HC only, but have strong knowledge of constructing a D.

As for whether it's about LBs, I don't particularly say it has to be. In the first modern glory days we ran the 3-4, 2 gapped, and our LBs were our strength (and it's correct, Rote wasn't an LB I meant to delete that I was thinking BVP and corrected it but didn't delete that, my bad). In the latter SB run we switched to the 4-3 and our DEs and DTs became the strength although Armstead and briefly Kawika Mitchell played important roles in our SB runs. Right now we're trying to run a 3-4 of a somewhat different type, but our LBs are awful, and our DL is somewhere between inconsistent and underperforming with no dominant player in the front 7. That only exposes the youth and holes in the backfield.

But, it's not about specifics. 3-4/4-3, hybrid, Tampa 2, Tampa 4, Tampa 5, Tampa 8...just give me a friggin' defense that flys around, hits people, creates turnovers, and doesn't immediately go down 14 and give back leads. Give me a D that makes an offense earn every yard. I know the rules have tilted some. But watching SF and Seattle play the other night, it's clear D has not been made fully illegal yet. So, I'm saying we have a team now with no identity. The core, and the history of our franchise is D so if I'm the owners and I'm looking at this crap-pile our team has become, and trying to figure out how to move into the future, I'm looking for someone who can bring back pride to this D. Our last coaches have been O focused - TC was a WR coach, Mac and Shurmer O experts. Bring me a leader to get the D back on track. Who could look at what we have and either figure out what's being used wrong, or what else we need to maximize this. Who if not in this next draft (which may be OL focused) but the next will pick pieces that fit together and run a system that puts us back toward the top of the list on D.

It's football and all the phases have to work together. But as a Giants fan having a good D is soul satisfying. Every turnover isn't a disaster. We get a lead I don't have to just know we'll piss it away. Opposing Os have to figure out how to scheme around what we're doing, not the other way around. We're a team with no identity, so if we have to figure out the future, I say go back to our roots and build a D to be reckoned with.
I disagree  
giantstock : 11/13/2019 10:46 pm : link
With respect - please don't take offense.

But the Op mentions about "soul satisfying." For me that's winning. If we win 48-45 it's just as gratifying as winning 10-7.

And as we criticize coaches for not adjusting to the talent they have on their team; to put them in the best possible situation to enhance their talents while winning, imo we would be doing the same thing if we didn't address the OLINE. Not enhancing our strengths of SB and DJ.

Barkley will be an all-time great as long as he is healthy if you get him in open space. And if he is/becomes an all-time great that will translate into "winning A LOT." If you don't get him in open space he may never achieve his potential. It;s high risk to NOT do it. His potential at RB is unlike anything we've seen from a Giant RB--- ever. It doesn't matter how the past glory days were built. You adapt to your current talent. We chose this guy 2nd overall. How about we try to use him in a manner that enhances his strengths? That's how you get the best out of your superstars, isn't it? When you picked Barkley 2nd you should be under the belief that you have to build your team differently than when you had for example- "Thunder" and "Lightning." GMen should be built more like how the Rams used Faulk. You run an explosive offense highlighted by SB.

Jones is too important to have to deal with the beating he is taking because of this OLine. Barkley will be far greater and have much more impact in games if there is an OLINE that will allow him more opportunities in open space. And while "soul satisfying" is important. How about "soul crushing" if this OLINE causes Dj to get hurt in which he never reaches his potential?

If you want to draft a defensive player with the 1st pick-- fine - just make sure your 2nd rd pick is an OLineman- in addition to you already signed a top notch OLineman in FA. If you choose defense in rds 1 and 2 then you better have already signed two top OLinemen in Free Agency.
OL first  
djm : 11/14/2019 10:09 pm : link
You protect and maximize your biggest investments. Thatís business 101. Thatís sports 101. Jones and Barkley are the most prized investments right now and going forward. OL, OL and more OL. Nothing else matters until the NYG OL is universally considered the toughest and most valuable unit on this team.
Giantstock  
Daniel in MI : 11/14/2019 10:10 pm : link
No offense taken (that could work 2 ways on this thread...). Itís not that I have any problem putting a better OL around DJ. Iím all for it for all the reasons you mentioned. But big picture, the direction I want to see is stop hiring offensive minded coaches who neglect the D. I want a D minded coach to restore the D back to something formidable.

The ďadapt to the players you haveĒ is sort of chicken/egg when all the top talent we brought in is on O. O got OBJ, DJ, SB...the D got some DBs and DTs, one FA Edge, and one project edge. We need some impact players on D. Golden, Lawrence, and Peppers are good complimentary pieces, but not big impact guys. We need an impact edge and much better ILBs. Hopefully some of the young DBs develop.
We had a top 5 defense in 2016.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/14/2019 11:34 pm : link
It won games.

The season went down the toilet because the offense stuck.

Offense matters too.
Daniel  
giantstock : 11/15/2019 1:07 am : link
Iím okay with d-minded coach. But I want the d-minded coach that is competent enough to understand that some years you can win with a high-powered offense instead of trying to win 17-14. Maybe not win a title but just be good. Though for example the Falcons with the 27th ranked defense shouldíve won vs Pats and it was more coaching than the defense that lost it for them. So I donít agree about your chicken-and-egg comment. The GMEN can get an impact edge and ILBís. And 2 OLInemen. IMO the Gmen could have $77m in FA and more if Shep retires and that doesnít include Solder or Jenkins. If you trade down along with lots of cap space GMen can get their pass rusher, an ILB and two OLINemen. Plus they can get a Safety.

Iím okay with defense and frankly I prefer it. But the GMEN chose a RB with the 2nd pick and a super attribute of his is to get out in open space. He canít do that with a bad OL. And with a RB, their ďpeak yearsĒ are generally lower than any other position. Thus the clock is ticking. You build your team around a RB you must get him 2 thingsóa QB and an OL.

The G-men have cap space. Iím not saying ignore the defenseóbut between cap space and high draft spots again for this year they should be able get more defense ALONG WITH getting two OLinemen. If you arenít going to get two quality OLinemen then you should never have chosen SB with the number 2 pick considering the position of RB. The good defensive football teams will always eventually shut him down without the GMEn addressing the OL.

Like it or not SB and probably DJ, are the souls of this team. Without a much, much better OL you are in essence intentionally limiting their ability to impact the game. Getting SB in open space is a game changer similar to Faulk. You need to place an extremely high priority on allowing them to influence the game as much as possible. If the soul of the team is defense then you should never have taken SB to begin with. Now that you have him Ė get the most out of him before he wears down.

If Falcons can almost win with a lousy defense in which the coach blew the game or even the Saints in 2009 who did win it all and the Rams and Chiefs were damn good last year even though they didnít win it all, The GMEn could strive to do the same.
decisions, decisions  
fkap : 11/15/2019 10:42 am : link
The OL absolutely HAS to be addressed. with moderate success at doing so, the offense should function.

The D absolutely HAS to be addressed. There's a lot of need here, but a couple key additions could make the whole thing bearable until future years can make it good.

I don't think we can concentrate on either side of the ball...yet. need to stabilize the ship before making any one part of it the 'identity'.

Sy says this a crazy good year for WR, which is a need, but a luxury in comparison to D and OL. Probably going to have to watch quality WR go to other teams. But, if you wanted to make O the 'identity' and Sy is right, a top WR and a moderate OL could make a good dent in getting there. Then hope you can patch the D enough so that it isn't such an embarrassment (it'll still be bottom half of the league, but it won't be the basement floor).

The rebuild is creating more holes than it is filling. We really need a lot of the youngsters already on the team to step up. Last years class seems to have stalled.
RE: Noo --- you need offense too- you need both  
Rong5611 : 11/15/2019 11:30 am : link
OL First, top 10 RD1 picks - franchise players, at stake.

We need to maximize their effectiveness.

In comment 14678180 giantstock said:
Quote:
Daniel Jones MUST BE preserved. He's been sacked 22 times in the last 4 games. What are you going to say next year when you watch him in street clothes as we roll out Tanney as the starting QB?

Secondly, the GMEN invested in a supposed generational RB. The only way to exploit his super supreme talents is to give him an OLINE. Otherwise you've deliberately drastically limited one of the most supreme talents over the past decade or longer.
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