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What did people expect with the Defense?

BigBlueDownTheShore : 11/13/2019 9:50 am
We got rid of any of our legit pass rushers. Picking up Golden has actually helped there, but Carter is mostly what he was in College - Potential that hasn’t fully materialized. Ximes has flashed at times but he’s a 3rd round rookie.

Even after saying all of that we are middle of the pack in sack rate which is amazing to me.

Our LBs have been putrid for years AND we made the switch to a 3-4 which means you have to not only have good LBs but a ton of them.

Ogletree was jettisoned from the Rams large in part because he is not suited for a 3-4 scheme and 2 years into our hybrid system he hasn’t gotten any better.

Finally, we are breaking in Rookies all over the secondary. Bethea came in because he knows the system, but I doubt anyone here was banking on him being a difference maker. I really think he was brought in to mentor Love to eventually take over.

The Dline is our strong point and we have good depth there.L, but I kind of get the vibe that BBI thinks they should be getting sacks from the DE position, but that’s not their job in a 3-4. Their job is to eat space for the LBs to make plays.

So I don’t get why their is such an uproar on how bad the defense has been. It’s been clear that they needed to change a ton of players to get the right mix to make this work.

-  
rdt288 : 11/13/2019 9:58 am : link
Better effort. Coaching adjustments. Sure the talent isn’t great but I worry about the effort on d
Better than this.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/13/2019 9:59 am : link
I thought they'd struggle, but improve as the season went on. Not happening...
That’s a fair asessment  
g56blue10 : 11/13/2019 9:59 am : link
People are up in arms over the defense and it’s deserving. But if you look at the youth on this defense and combine that with the few veterans that aren’t really good. This is what you get. No one wins with this much youth
I expect players to be improving  
JohnB : 11/13/2019 10:03 am : link
they aren't. No one is getting better.
You get what you pay for.  
Section331 : 11/13/2019 10:08 am : link
Dan Schneier tweeted earlier this week that the Giants were dead last in the league in cap allocated to defense. That means you are defense is either really young, or really bad. I get the urge to blame Bettcher, but it would be nice to see what he can do with NFL-level players.
I expected them to be bad - this was my take in August  
ron mexico : 11/13/2019 10:09 am : link
On iPad so can’t be as wordy as would like
ron mexico : 8/30/2019 10:27 am : link
I like big dex but it’s a stretch to think that as a rookie he will be more impactful than a multiple time all pro, and I doubt he plays more snaps than snacks this year barring injury

I don’t want to become know as that guy who hates peppers but my prediction for him this year is he will appear often in the highlight reels, occasionally doing something good for the giants.

The pass rush is non existent, the LBs are at best JAGs and there is a lot of inexperience in the secondary. Remember it only takes one guy making a mistake to give up a big play.

To me this all spells disaster on the def side of the ball
RE: I expect players to be improving  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 11/13/2019 10:09 am : link
In comment 14678438 JohnB said:
Quote:
they aren't. No one is getting better.


How is supposed to get better when we do not have the most important part of a 3-4 defense which is the LBs?

The secondary is growing, but it’s up and down. Baker has 1 good game and then looks like a rookie the next. That’s to be expected from a Rookie.
I expected exactly this  
idiotsavant : 11/13/2019 10:10 am : link
Which is why I repeatedly advocated
:


"trade down and draft all defense."

Or

"draft Ed Oliver AND dexter Lawrence plus mostly defense and one big blocking tight end "
RE: Better than this.  
BamaBlue : 11/13/2019 10:12 am : link
In comment 14678426 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I thought they'd struggle, but improve as the season went on. Not happening...


+1 I was hoping to see the flashes of development and growth. Instead bad schemes and bad decisions got worse. I believe that the Giants have no current linebacker on the roster (Connelly is a possible, unproven exception) that could be a starting linebacker for any other team in the NFL.
Great question  
Rjanyg : 11/13/2019 10:14 am : link
Defense all starts with the front. You need to pressure the QB in the NFL and while we have done ok we still don't do it well on 3rd down, especially 3rd and long. Golden has done a nice job and I feel it would be wise for Gettlemen to think about re-signing him, especially if we plan on staying with the Bettcher defense. Carter has show flashes and I think he is playing hurt with that arm brace. Ximines is showing some ability but I did not expect him to tear it up. Kareem Martin has done nothing since his signing and I'd expect him to be cut giving us a good savings against the cap.

Interior pressure has been ok and with Leonard Williams its is better. Hill has not produced much which is concerning.

Blitzing has been less than stellar. Ogletree has not been great this year and Buchanon hasn't made a difference. Inside LB is a huge need and I an hopeful that Connelly comes back healthy.

The young corners have been getting reps but we can see how hard it is to make that jump from college to the NFL. Baker, Ballentine and Beal will need to improve if this defense is to compete.

Peppers has shown to me that he is part of the solution while Bethea is cooked. He had 2 good plays against Dallas and not much else. He shows no toughness or instincts and you would think that those are things he would bring to the table.

In my estimation, this defense is a playmaker away on each level. We need a top pass rusher, a great ILB and a Free Safety. All these positions can and should be improved next year.
Never trade down  
Chip : 11/13/2019 10:25 am : link
and receive inferior talent. If you have a shot at Chase Young you make it happen. If you can't do that then go OT in this draft in the 1st.
Blaming Bettcher isn't going to solve our problems  
chuckydee9 : 11/13/2019 10:38 am : link
With talent around him he had a top 5 defense for 3 years in Arizona.. thats not coincidence.. I suspect he is like 10-15 other capable DC who can put up a great defense if he has the talent. unfortunately he doesn't have any talent.. There are probably only 4-5 DC who can put up good defense with crap players and Bettcher isn't one of them..

I said this earlier and after 1st game.. we have invested nothing in the Defensive side.. other than couple of 1st round rookies this year.. compare that to our offensive side where we have invest all our high cost FA and high draft picks.. We have 4 DT, 3 of whom we force to play DE often.. Our LBs suck balls.. Ogletree is crap.. we paid draft picks for him and then decided to pay him more and more money in bonuses.. the dude is nothing more than a JAG and we have him as the 7th highest paid MLB.. way higher than his play has been plus we love to convert his salary to bonus.. at this point it seems his entire overpaid salary has been guaranteed... On secondary we have scraps that the bottom 5 teams didn't want on their team as safeties.. add to it the bust that has been Baker.. how do you excuse his lack of effort repeatedly?

Its not just coaching.. lack of talent and horrible planning is very evident on the defense.
The loss of Connelly  
HoustonGiant : 11/13/2019 10:49 am : link
is so much bigger than people realize. He was a true MLB. He was the QB and had people in the right places.
I don't think anyone expected this defense to be a top 10 defense  
Jay on the Island : 11/13/2019 10:50 am : link
with that said they should be playing much better than this.

Take a look at Miami for example. They are playing hard and with less broken plays, miscommunications, and blown coverages despite a completely blown up roster.

...  
christian : 11/13/2019 11:01 am : link
There should be nothing surprising at all.

The facts didn't support the myth the Giants had a bad pass rush last year -- they had a middle of the pack pass rush -- and a low sack rate. Football Outsiders had the Giants right in the middle of the league in pressure.

Not surprisingly the Giants have a middle of the league pass rush again, and the sack rate has actually improved.

The Giants have bad pass coverage. They have abysmal pass coverage by their linebackers, abysmal pass coverage by their safeties, a rookie who's getting beat like a bag, a slot corner who was benched for a rookie, and the 4th highest paid corner in the league who seemingly only puts in full effort every other game.

It doesn't support the cute axiom, but the Giants need to cover better. They've given up the most big plays in the NFL, the 2nd highest yards per attempt.
I expected nothing. Recall the majority of the worries  
Jimmy Googs : 11/13/2019 11:07 am : link
were going to be around pass rush, lack of any good linebackers and how long it would take the new insertions into the secondary to mesh.

On cue, they suck. Getting off the field on 3rd down is like an epic challenge.

But lets see who looks better at the end of the year versus the beginning...
Expected a slow start and improvement  
Biteymax22 : 11/13/2019 11:13 am : link
Start went as I expected, improvement didn't.
RE: Great question  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/13/2019 11:20 am : link
In comment 14678458 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
Defense all starts with the front. You need to pressure the QB in the NFL and while we have done ok we still don't do it well on 3rd down, especially 3rd and long. Golden has done a nice job and I feel it would be wise for Gettlemen to think about re-signing him, especially if we plan on staying with the Bettcher defense. Carter has show flashes and I think he is playing hurt with that arm brace. Ximines is showing some ability but I did not expect him to tear it up. Kareem Martin has done nothing since his signing and I'd expect him to be cut giving us a good savings against the cap.

Interior pressure has been ok and with Leonard Williams its is better. Hill has not produced much which is concerning.

Blitzing has been less than stellar. Ogletree has not been great this year and Buchanon hasn't made a difference. Inside LB is a huge need and I an hopeful that Connelly comes back healthy.

The young corners have been getting reps but we can see how hard it is to make that jump from college to the NFL. Baker, Ballentine and Beal will need to improve if this defense is to compete.

Peppers has shown to me that he is part of the solution while Bethea is cooked. He had 2 good plays against Dallas and not much else. He shows no toughness or instincts and you would think that those are things he would bring to the table.

In my estimation, this defense is a playmaker away on each level. We need a top pass rusher, a great ILB and a Free Safety. All these positions can and should be improved next year.


Very fair and accurate assessment. Hill seems a disappointment based on last year. I hope he can be very good rotational player and spot starter as he continues to develop. I think a stud pass rusher in the draft with Golden resigned would really help. Hopefully Love shows well the last few games.
Expected pretty much exactly this  
BillyM : 11/13/2019 11:21 am : link
But didn't expect our O line to stink. Didn't expect Saquon to get hurt and struggle.

But equally, didn't expect Daniel Jones to be as good as he is.
This site has devolved into senseless takes.  
LauderdaleMatty : 11/13/2019 11:21 am : link
The same people were most Mikey saying Tim Lewis and Sheridan were great coaches.

This D is easily one of the worst in the HISTORY of the franchise. We heard the same stupid shit when Lewis was here. There’s enough talent to no be one of the most inept in 100 years.
RE: Better than this.  
Klaatu : 11/13/2019 12:19 pm : link
In comment 14678426 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I thought they'd struggle, but improve as the season went on. Not happening...


Yup. My sentiments exactly.
RE: The loss of Connelly  
Danny Dimes : 11/13/2019 12:31 pm : link
In comment 14678516 HoustonGiant said:
Quote:
is so much bigger than people realize. He was a true MLB. He was the QB and had people in the right places.


It's why this team is a joke, they shouldn't have to rely on a 5th round rookie. But I do believe he was a major factor in our only wins with Bucs and Skins. Next season once he gets a full off season getting built and hopefully study the D he should come back better
I'll tell you what I didn't expect...  
BlueLou'sBack : 11/13/2019 12:43 pm : link
I did not expect to be down 14-0 every fucking game.


And then to continue, after winning the coin toss, to elect to kick off again.




That type of "STOOPID" just ticks me off. Sometimes you gotta go against the new age stats crap.


I expected the pass rush to be worse...  
x meadowlander : 11/13/2019 1:13 pm : link
...and I expected the run defense to be better.


BUT - I believed Lawrence would be used as a nosetackle, not a DE. That shift alone explains both.


But being incredibly soft, unable to get off the field on 3rd down, blown coverages??

YUP. Expected that.
I expect them not to play 10 yards off the ball on 3rd & 5.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 11/13/2019 1:43 pm : link
I also expect them to know what their assignments are. I'm not even expecting that they have the physical capability to carry out those assignments, but I don't think guys should be looking at each other after plays like, "Who had that guy?"
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