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BBI Article: How to Fix the New York Giants?

Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/13/2019 11:44 am
FYI...


How to Fix the New York Giants? - ( New Window )
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Gettledogman  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/13/2019 4:19 pm : link
26 games is not a lot of time.

But it's not getting better.

The offensive line and defense are getting worse with each game. Saquon is already affected. Soon Daniel Jones will be impacted too (folks are legitimately concerned about the fumbles, but he's getting clobbered back there).

Gettleman said his #1 priority was Hog Mollies. He's failed miserably.
I'm in the stay the course camp  
Sneakers O'toole : 11/13/2019 4:21 pm : link
This roster needs to be completely overhauled, mostly through the draft. 2 drafts in is too soon.
RE: Lots of opinion that folks of like minded opinion  
Gettledogman : 11/13/2019 4:22 pm : link
In comment 14679061 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
accept or even laud as "facts" for my taste.

Since I disagree with a lot of the opinions stated above, like that the online of Solder, Hernandez, Pio, Zeitler and Remmers is no better than the Flowers, Pugh, Richburg, Jerry, Hart line was.

Points like that OL of 2017 giving up instant sacks, sacks that poured through the A gaps, and this line operates in front of a QB who's still in diapers reading the field and often holds the ball too long, details like that matter and make the arguments like "the OL still sucks" disingenuous.

Dangerously disingenuous. Or that pulling the plug on DG after 2 seasons is ridiculous when to many eyes the drafts look much much better than Reese's Ross's were...

So Carter and Hill haven't lived up to our hopes? Again how do they compare with Jerrel Jernigan and Ramses Barden?

Two of those 4 guys are indeed NFL players and the other two were not!


Finding the biggest pitchfork and taking a stance at the front of the mob isn't exactly a heroic act IMO, and I neither laud nor agree with it.

Even if I'm seriously concerned about Pat Shurmer as HC.


Excellent points
RE: Gettledogman  
Gettledogman : 11/13/2019 4:34 pm : link
In comment 14679156 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
26 games is not a lot of time.

But it's not getting better.

The offensive line and defense are getting worse with each game. Saquon is already affected. Soon Daniel Jones will be impacted too (folks are legitimately concerned about the fumbles, but he's getting clobbered back there).

Gettleman said his #1 priority was Hog Mollies. He's failed miserably.


It looks better to me. First we are NOT getting blown off the field as soon as the game starts. This QB has had time to scan the field much more than ELi the last 2 yrs. The hog mollies -we drafted 2 one is playing and looks the part the other we traded for -a very unpopular trade but has now been proven to be correct same with drafting QB DJ. Solder was a stop gap that was needed -Flowers was getting killed. Omemah was a cheap shot that didn't worked -but he wanted Norwell who went to Jax instead. Kid looked pretty good last week at RT and Id like to see some playing time for big George too -but that's for next year.

Saquon is hurt -he is playing hurt he doesn't have the burst or strength he had before the injury -he will be fine but it might be awhile.

The DL played well and I like the parts added Williams was a good get. Our LBrs are trash. Ogletree was a need for someone in the middle to call out the Defense. I would have rather gone a different direction but Betcher needed someone. Same reason why sign Bethea. The Rookies tho look ok -growing pains sure but not getting blown off the field. We need LBrs!!!! We have needed them since Gettleman signed Antonio Pierce.

But expecting this team to quickly become a playyyyyoff team is unrealistic.

Gettledogman  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/13/2019 4:37 pm : link
We're going to agree to disagree.

The Jets - who were averaging about 12 points per game - just marched and down the field against the Giants.

Barkley got one yard on 13 carries. Gallman had two yards.

And it arrow has been pointing down the past six games in both of these areas.
I love the idea of coach/GM ...  
Dnew15 : 11/13/2019 4:37 pm : link
but it can't be for just anyone.

I don't want any parts of Matt Rhule or Robert Saleh or Kris Richard.

No up and coming hot commodity coordinator or college coach non-sense.

Grow a set and hire a legend.

Do everything you can to lure Saban to the Giants. Do everything you can to convince Bill Cowher to come out of retirement.

Get a guy that you KNOW will win. Do it right this time.
Gettledogman  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/13/2019 4:38 pm : link
and the Jets, who can't rush the passer, just sacked Jones six times.

Wake up.
the problem is this  
GiantsFan84 : 11/13/2019 4:39 pm : link
They spend resources to fix issues. The OL (Richburg, Pugh, Flowers, Solder, Vernon trade). But it's not fixed.

They trade for and use picks on the DL, Lawrence, Williams, Tomlinson, Hill. But it's not fixed.

Because these things are never fixed, they have to keep spending more and more resources which further neglects other positions. Resources are finite.

It's a real problem for this team. Every year is like groundhogs day.
RE: Gettledogman  
bw in dc : 11/13/2019 4:48 pm : link
In comment 14679175 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
and the Jets, who can't rush the passer, just sacked Jones six times.

Wake up.


And without - supposedly - their best pass rusher, LW.

Who we stupidly, and that can't be underscored enough, traded for.

As great as the Steelers trade was for Fitzpatrick, our trade for LW was the complete opposite - tragically dumb.




Eric, great write up  
bluesince56 : 11/13/2019 5:17 pm : link
Sadly, it makes no difference to the owners. I thought Wellington was bad but John is much worse. He is not going to listen to thoughtful advice from anyone except his crony friends.
RE: RE: Gettledogman  
Matt M. : 11/13/2019 5:25 pm : link
In comment 14679169 Gettledogman said:
Quote:
In comment 14679156 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


26 games is not a lot of time.

But it's not getting better.

The offensive line and defense are getting worse with each game. Saquon is already affected. Soon Daniel Jones will be impacted too (folks are legitimately concerned about the fumbles, but he's getting clobbered back there).

Gettleman said his #1 priority was Hog Mollies. He's failed miserably.



It looks better to me. First we are NOT getting blown off the field as soon as the game starts. This QB has had time to scan the field much more than ELi the last 2 yrs. The hog mollies -we drafted 2 one is playing and looks the part the other we traded for -a very unpopular trade but has now been proven to be correct same with drafting QB DJ. Solder was a stop gap that was needed -Flowers was getting killed. Omemah was a cheap shot that didn't worked -but he wanted Norwell who went to Jax instead. Kid looked pretty good last week at RT and Id like to see some playing time for big George too -but that's for next year.

Saquon is hurt -he is playing hurt he doesn't have the burst or strength he had before the injury -he will be fine but it might be awhile.

The DL played well and I like the parts added Williams was a good get. Our LBrs are trash. Ogletree was a need for someone in the middle to call out the Defense. I would have rather gone a different direction but Betcher needed someone. Same reason why sign Bethea. The Rookies tho look ok -growing pains sure but not getting blown off the field. We need LBrs!!!! We have needed them since Gettleman signed Antonio Pierce.

But expecting this team to quickly become a playyyyyoff team is unrealistic.
All I can say is HUH? We are not getting blown off the field at the start of the game? The Jets drove down the field to open the game as if we weren't there. Then we went 3 and out, including a fumble, and they drove the field again. This was how many games in a row where we gave up a TD to open the game? And how many in a row where we did not score?

As for the OL, Solder has not been better than Flowers, which is saying a lot. But, we are paying him as a top OL. Hernandez seems to have regressed, or at the very least not gotten any better. We have no viable OC, Zeitler is a good, but not special RG, and Remmers is as bad as Solder at RT. We have no viable depth to replace the 3 stiffs.

This has contributed greatly to Barkley doing nothing for a few weeks and Jones continually under pressure.

The D is absolutely putrid. There is no better way to describe them. And trading a 3rd round pick (assuming we re-sign him) for a FA who has underwhelmed the team that traded him at #6 was beyond stupid. If he plays decently for us, it drives up his asking price, which is already high, without having any real impact on the outcome of this season. If they liked him so much, they should have allowed him to continue to get double teamed on the Jets and pay less for him in FA.
Could LW get a transition tag  
ray in arlington : 11/13/2019 5:27 pm : link
at $12.4M?

RE: Could LW get a transition tag  
bw in dc : 11/13/2019 5:30 pm : link
In comment 14679228 ray in arlington said:
Quote:
at $12.4M?


I want to say yes. But that would create a lot of acrimony.
Actually 12.4 is for DT  
ray in arlington : 11/13/2019 5:30 pm : link
14.36 for DE
RE: Actually 12.4 is for DT  
bw in dc : 11/13/2019 5:33 pm : link
In comment 14679234 ray in arlington said:
Quote:
14.36 for DE


He's going to want $17M+.
I think Team LW...  
bw in dc : 11/13/2019 5:36 pm : link
will use Trey Flowers as their baseline.
The problem is that DG inherited a mess  
BillT : 11/13/2019 5:41 pm : link
There was so little talent on this team 2 years ago it's hard to fathom. DG had to find 20 new starters and 10 decent backups including a franchise QB. And there need to be a handful of pro bowlers in there as well. Some of that is done, most of it isn't.

Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.
RE: I think Team LW...  
ray in arlington : 11/13/2019 5:41 pm : link
In comment 14679238 bw in dc said:
Quote:
will use Trey Flowers as their baseline.


$56M guaranteed. That's the hogmollie market.
RE: The problem is that DG inherited a mess  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 11/13/2019 6:24 pm : link
In comment 14679246 BillT said:
Quote:
There was so little talent on this team 2 years ago it's hard to fathom. DG had to find 20 new starters and 10 decent backups including a franchise QB. And there need to be a handful of pro bowlers in there as well. Some of that is done, most of it isn't.

Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.


We had some talent, but traded just about all the talent we had for a hot dog and bag of peanuts.
RE: Regarding the coach...  
Zeke's Alibi : 11/13/2019 6:24 pm : link
In comment 14678989 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Before you marry a woman, you have to ask yourself, "Is this someone I can envision spending the rest of my life with?" If the answer is no, you move on.

Is your head coach someone you honestly see winning a Super Bowl? If not, you move on.


This sums up my feeling about PS. Will he be a decent coach if we give a roster? Probably, but I'm having a hard time believing he can win a Superbowl with the mistakes he makes. Andy Reid still hasn't, and he may prove he needs an elite QB to do so. PS isn't even close to Reid's level.
Building the team around defense in the modern  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 11/13/2019 6:30 pm : link
age of football is not the way to go.

Defenses are at a disadvantage due to offensive innovation, and that's not going to change anytime soon.

Building the team around defense is going right back to the NY Giants well. You want to break the cycle, but you're just going right back to the beginning of the cycle.

Think ahead, and think innovatively. We were disrupters with 4 DE defensive line or the amazing LB and defense we had in the 80s. We have to disrupt again.
RE: RE: I think Team LW...  
bw in dc : 11/13/2019 6:35 pm : link
In comment 14679247 ray in arlington said:
Quote:
In comment 14679238 bw in dc said:


Quote:


will use Trey Flowers as their baseline.



$56M guaranteed. That's the hogmollie market.


It's a "that's-what-you-get-for-making-a-stupid-trade" market...
Okay  
Bavaro_the_Mafioso : 11/13/2019 6:48 pm : link
So, if what's reported is true, and DG wants to keep Shurmur, what case can you make to Mara?
Eric - many good points  
.McL. : 11/13/2019 6:53 pm : link
I agree that the team needs to build the OL and protect the big investment at QB, and to a lesser extent RB.


After that build the defense, and if you are going to run a 3-4 you need really good LBs.

Regarding the OL investment though. I have to disagree, The Giants have not properly invested in the OL. FA does not replace investing draft capital. In today's NFL, decent OL just don't hit FA. OL that do either are at the end of their career, have red flags or just stink. If a decent OL does hit FA, they simply cost too much.

Since 2013 (7 drafts) the Giants have spent 2 picks each in rounds 1, 2, 6, and 7. It total that represents about 14% of their total draft capital. Since 2016 (4 drafts), the Giants have spent a 2nd and a 7th or 4% of their draft capital over that time, and since Gettleman arrived they have spent the same picks representing 8% of their capital.

Since OL represents 23% of the players on the field (5 out of 22) it would make sense that you at least spend a proportionate amount of draft capital on the OL, about 23% (maybe a bit more to make up for the lack of FA).

14% over 7 years is at best 60% of what should have been spent.
4% over 4 years is at best 17%
and 8% over 2 is at best 35%.

This level of investment is way too low. You can try to supplement with UDFAs, but that is not a reliable source of solid players. Finding a starting OL in UDFA is akin to a lottery win.

The Giants have NOT invested enough draft capital in the OL.
In 7 drafts, the Giants have not chosen even 1 OL in rounds 3 - 5.

What compounds this is that by the end of 2015, the team knew that their investments were not working. Pugh failed at T and moved to G, and he and Richburg could not stay healthy. And there were major questions about Flowers. At that point it would make sense to up the investment to get replacements. Instead the Giants drastically reduced their investment. When DG arrive, the "Hog-Mollie" king, he knew he needed 5 new starters, plus backups (the cupboard was completely empty). And his investment has still been way below average.


RE: RE: The problem is that DG inherited a mess  
BillT : 11/13/2019 7:02 pm : link
In comment 14679302 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
In comment 14679246 BillT said:


Quote:


There was so little talent on this team 2 years ago it's hard to fathom. DG had to find 20 new starters and 10 decent backups including a franchise QB. And there need to be a handful of pro bowlers in there as well. Some of that is done, most of it isn't.

Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.



We had some talent, but traded just about all the talent we had for a hot dog and bag of peanuts.

Not really true. We got good value for OBJ and the other "talent" wasn't that good (Apple) or wasn't going to be good by the time the team was (Snacks).
McL...  
bw in dc : 11/13/2019 7:03 pm : link
Forget the investment piece, I'm at the point where I don't even trust DG's judgment on personnel, despite what the self-proclaimed great builder of teams would have us believe.

He certainly talks the talk, but has shown little in walking the walk.

Horrible hire at this point...
Re: Scouting Department  
Adam G in Big D : 11/13/2019 7:06 pm : link
What about the failure of the scouting department to uncover Beal's injury (I don't believe he was injured on the 1st day of training camp) or McIntosh's condition?

Baber's mental state?

Seems like there are other examples as well.
RE: The problem is that DG inherited a mess  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/13/2019 7:07 pm : link
In comment 14679246 BillT said:
Quote:
There was so little talent on this team 2 years ago it's hard to fathom. DG had to find 20 new starters and 10 decent backups including a franchise QB. And there need to be a handful of pro bowlers in there as well. Some of that is done, most of it isn't.

Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.


How are his efforts to add to the Offensive Line faring so far? He should be graded on that, rather than emphasizing how bad the situation was that he took over. A lot has already been changed. This is his roster now.
RE: McL...  
.McL. : 11/13/2019 7:18 pm : link
In comment 14679347 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Forget the investment piece, I'm at the point where I don't even trust DG's judgment on personnel, despite what the self-proclaimed great builder of teams would have us believe.

He certainly talks the talk, but has shown little in walking the walk.

Horrible hire at this point...

Well, I won't argue about that...

I am just countering that narrative around here that the Giants have invested "enough" in the OL but they failed.

Yes, what they have invested has failed, but it also wasn't enough. Both statements are true.

But, yeah, I am not a fan of DG's judgement either.
DG inherited a mess its true  
.McL. : 11/13/2019 7:25 pm : link
But then again almost every new GM inherits a mess!

But, DG doesn't get a pass anymore on the current team. THere are only 9 players left from before he got here. Only 4 of those get meaningful snaps. The vast majority of playing time is going to guys that DG brought in.

Whats more is everybody talks about the great job he is doing clearing out contract, and its not his fault that there is o much dead cap this year. That is BS. The contracts from Reese that Gettlman has dumped have cost the Giants 13M in dead space. The contract that Gettleman himself has given out and terminated have cost the Giants more than 24M in dead cap. DG is far more responsible for the dead cap issues we have now that was Reese!

Folks, you have to stop giving him a pass and blaming it all on Reese. More of this is on DG than you realize.
The team Gettleman inherited had gone 11-5 and to the playoffs  
jcn56 : 11/13/2019 7:44 pm : link
two years prior, with the year prior being an injury riddled campaign that ended in a mutiny.

He decided to dismantle and rebuild - and even if you think he got fair value for what he traded away, he blew it on players who haven't been able to contribute much, as the record shows.

His FA record is abysmal. After convincing people that he knows his "Hog Mollies", he's managed to acquire one good (in trade) OL, and one inconsistent one via draft. The rest are just as bad as anything Reese ever trotted out, including matching the awful Flowers draft with a player equally terrible being paid top OLT money at the time.

He's had one bad FA signing after the next, from guys that needed to be cut shortly after they were signed (Omameh) to guys that never contributed a damn thing (Stewart).

He pissed away what will likely be a high 3rd and 4th for the rights to overpay Leonard Williams, a 4th for the rights to overpay an awful Alec Ogletree, and a 4th for a player who didn't make it two seasons in Lauletta.

Even Saquon Barkley, who everyone had fitted for a gold jacket before he was drafted, has looked pretty bad this year, both before and after his injury.

It's time for these guys to go. It's time for Mara to sack up, break out of his comfort zone, hire an outsider, and CHANGE the way they've done things forever. Get the lifers who reside at Giants HQ, thank them for their time, and let them go off into retirement or find jobs elsewhere. Get someone other than Ernie Accorsi to identify some up and comer to take the reigns, to revamp scouting, to hire a coach, and make them fully accountable - let them make the decisions, let them take the hit. Better yet - don't even bother with a GM anymore, get one guy to be the CEO (Mara's words), let him run the whole show and if it doesn't work out, show him the door.

It's time for change. I agree with Eric that it won't happen, but that'll just prolong the misery.
RE: RE: The problem is that DG inherited a mess  
BillT : 11/13/2019 7:49 pm : link
In comment 14679355 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14679246 BillT said:


Quote:


There was so little talent on this team 2 years ago it's hard to fathom. DG had to find 20 new starters and 10 decent backups including a franchise QB. And there need to be a handful of pro bowlers in there as well. Some of that is done, most of it isn't.

Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.



How are his efforts to add to the Offensive Line faring so far? He should be graded on that, rather than emphasizing how bad the situation was that he took over. A lot has already been changed. This is his roster now.

I don't think 2 drafts and a couple of somewhat underfunded FA classes come close to being able to generate the 20 new starters plus that it will take to rebuild the team. Do you really think we should be competitive now. What did you think our record would be this year.
There is an awful lot os space  
.McL. : 11/13/2019 7:59 pm : link
between competitive and being one of the 2 or 3 worst teams in the league.
You and I came to the  
Daniel in MI : 11/13/2019 8:26 pm : link
Same conclusion independently. Late last night I posted the thread ďDefense FirstĒ saying as you did: get back to our roots, bring in a D minded HC, and put the priority on that (and the OL on the other side). D is the heart and soul of Big Blue, and seeing this feckless, soft, impotent bunch get behind and give up any lead we get immediately while causing no turnovers is pathetic. Watching that SF v Seattle game and seeing 2 actual Ds fly around made me heartsick. Itís wrong for a team with D players like Huff, LT, Carson, Banks, Strahan, Marshall, Tuck, and even Osi to trot out this garbage.
80% DG, 20% everything else  
V.I.G. : 11/13/2019 8:43 pm : link


Good write up  
WillVAB : 11/13/2019 8:50 pm : link
Disagree on the cap space point, which has been parroted by a few posters.

According to Spotrac the Giants have 63 million in space for 2020. They gain an extra 33 million by cutting Jenkins, Ogletree, Ellison, Martin, and Bethea. They only have one big re-sign in LW.

When you look at the totality of the circumstances the Giants are in a very healthy cap situation and can be top 3 in the league if they want to win some sort of magical cap space award.

I expect them to make some big splash signings. The key will be to sign guys that are young and talented at impact positions of need. There will be some guys that fit the bill.

This team can be good in 2020 ó it wonít take a miracle. The good teams around the league arenít perfect. You can run down every potential playoff team and find weaknesses.

Gettleman just has to nail the off-season, starting with the coaching staff. Sign a few impact players in the trenches in FA. Have a good draft.
RE: RE: RE: The problem is that DG inherited a mess  
jcn56 : 11/13/2019 9:42 pm : link
In comment 14679389 BillT said:
Quote:

I don't think 2 drafts and a couple of somewhat underfunded FA classes come close to being able to generate the 20 new starters plus that it will take to rebuild the team. Do you really think we should be competitive now. What did you think our record would be this year.


Again - this team went from 11-5, to 3-13 in a season filled with injury, to complete demolition and now absolutely lost. Gettleman had money to play with, and he brought in the likes of Solder (as bad as Flowers, just a lot more expensive), Omameh (didn't make it through half the season), Ogletree, Jonathan Stewart.

He wasn't resource constrained - he just monetized whatever talent the team did have and turned it into absolute shit. Give him more time if you want, but that makes you more of a masochist than a fan.
Terps has talked  
santacruzom : 11/13/2019 10:18 pm : link
About their complete inability to be accurately introspective for years. His point -- when they win, they don't know why they won, and when they lose, they don't know why they lost -- is dead on and absolutely must change.
When we win, it is usually because the opponent...  
EricJ : 11/14/2019 8:47 pm : link
beat themselves
Thoughtful Article and Thread  
Percy : 11/14/2019 9:19 pm : link
Issue is just who exactly is going to undertake to do any of the things Eric usefully suggests? Doing them assumes a sensible Management command structure with talent at the top having hire/fire authority. But this does not seem to be there. Nor does there seem to be any Gettleman or Chris Mara replacement/succession plan that would change that. Until this is corrected, and lower level people who can't do the job properly are fired, no meaningful improvement looks possible. No matter how high a draft choice they get or how many picks, mistakes of the same kind that got the team where it is now (terrible talent identification and bad coaching are high on that list), adding more poor players, look certain to be repeated. Discouraging. Not a pretty picture.
Very good article..  
Sean : 11/14/2019 9:57 pm : link
Mike Lombardi made a great point in todayís GM Shuffle podcast - he said, ďThe Giants donít need a coach, they need an infrastructure.Ē

That is so true. Since the end of the 2013 season, every move the Giants have made has been to ďpatchĒ things together.

2014: Firing Gilbride; Hiring McAdoo
2015: Firing Fewell; Hiring Spagnuolo
2016: Firing Coughlin; Hiring McAdoo
2018: Replace Reese/McAdoo with Gettleman/Shurmur
-Keep Eli as starter up until week 2 of 2019

Record from 2004 through 2012: 91-64 (including playoffs with 2 SB titles)
-Coughlin was hired in 2004 to build a program & he did it with Eli. This was a very successful run in Giant history.

Record from 2013 to present: 40-67
-All moves during this time have been patchwork & short sighted to try and fix what is broken. There is no program in place, no long-term vision.

2019 is far different than 2004 in terms of the landscape of the league. Itís time to look outside of the building & hire someone to build a culture and program. Itís time.


RE: Very good article..  
Go Terps : 11/14/2019 10:28 pm : link
In comment 14679669 Sean said:
Quote:
Mike Lombardi made a great point in todayís GM Shuffle podcast - he said, ďThe Giants donít need a coach, they need an infrastructure.Ē

That is so true. Since the end of the 2013 season, every move the Giants have made has been to ďpatchĒ things together.

2014: Firing Gilbride; Hiring McAdoo
2015: Firing Fewell; Hiring Spagnuolo
2016: Firing Coughlin; Hiring McAdoo
2018: Replace Reese/McAdoo with Gettleman/Shurmur
-Keep Eli as starter up until week 2 of 2019

Record from 2004 through 2012: 91-64 (including playoffs with 2 SB titles)
-Coughlin was hired in 2004 to build a program & he did it with Eli. This was a very successful run in Giant history.

Record from 2013 to present: 40-67
-All moves during this time have been patchwork & short sighted to try and fix what is broken. There is no program in place, no long-term vision.

2019 is far different than 2004 in terms of the landscape of the league. Itís time to look outside of the building & hire someone to build a culture and program. Itís time.



I think Mara should hire two or three consultants to develop a report on how to structure the organization, and who to hire to run it. He'd do well to hire Lombardi as one of those consultants.
Well thought out, honest evaluation.  
BigBlue in Keys : 11/14/2019 11:02 pm : link
Great job Eric. Someone print it, put a stamp on it and get it to Mara's desk.
No one has screamed fix the defense more than me  
djm : 11/14/2019 11:07 pm : link
But the biggest concern going forward should be the OL. Barkley and Jones need to be nurtured and thereís no better way than to build a good OL around them.

Also, every time the giants offense faces a pivotal moment, the play gets blown the hell up. More often than not people second guess the playcall and why not? The play blew up before it had any chance of success. Why did it play up? Was it because the other team knew what was coming? Maybe. But thatís a cop out excuse and hides the real issues. In 1990 everyone knew what the giants would run and it didnít matter. Same with 2007 at times. Didnít matter. The OL opened holes. We won.

Fix the OL. Priority one.
RE: RE: RE: The problem is that DG inherited a mess  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/14/2019 11:27 pm : link
In comment 14679389 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 14679355 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 14679246 BillT said:


Quote:


There was so little talent on this team 2 years ago it's hard to fathom. DG had to find 20 new starters and 10 decent backups including a franchise QB. And there need to be a handful of pro bowlers in there as well. Some of that is done, most of it isn't.

Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.



How are his efforts to add to the Offensive Line faring so far? He should be graded on that, rather than emphasizing how bad the situation was that he took over. A lot has already been changed. This is his roster now.


I don't think 2 drafts and a couple of somewhat underfunded FA classes come close to being able to generate the 20 new starters plus that it will take to rebuild the team. Do you really think we should be competitive now. What did you think our record would be this year.


There exists a middle ground between "competitive" and "2 wins in half a season".

2 drafts and 2 free agencies with lots of money spent, you shouldn't expect some kind of return?
RE: RE: RE: RE: The problem is that DG inherited a mess  
giantstock : 11/15/2019 2:25 am : link
In comment 14679734 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14679389 BillT said:


Quote:





There exists a middle ground between "competitive" and "2 wins in half a season".

2 drafts and 2 free agencies with lots of money spent, you shouldn't expect some kind of return?



+1(0000000000).

I think some fans look at the team and what DG has built in a vacuum. FOr example, DG has spent near $48m on FA's currently on the team and hit to the cap. None of them are part of a rebuild. ANd three of the 4 have been bad. That money could have gotten GMEN some core players or there would be more cap to get core players.

Instead they look at the current team and say "Well look at them this moment and you can see they are far away."

OFC they are far away. If you didn't have much talent to start with and your FA signings have been awful. OFC you're going to be "years away." Instead if you had a GM who hit on FA's - things wouldn't look so bleak.
RE: RE: RE: The problem is that DG inherited a mess  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/15/2019 10:13 am : link
In comment 14679389 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 14679355 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 14679246 BillT said:


Quote:


There was so little talent on this team 2 years ago it's hard to fathom. DG had to find 20 new starters and 10 decent backups including a franchise QB. And there need to be a handful of pro bowlers in there as well. Some of that is done, most of it isn't.

Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.



How are his efforts to add to the Offensive Line faring so far? He should be graded on that, rather than emphasizing how bad the situation was that he took over. A lot has already been changed. This is his roster now.


I don't think 2 drafts and a couple of somewhat underfunded FA classes come close to being able to generate the 20 new starters plus that it will take to rebuild the team. Do you really think we should be competitive now. What did you think our record would be this year.

How underfunded would his FA classes be without his own dead money contributions?

Although, with the mediocrity of the players he has signed over the past two years, maybe we should be grateful that he ultimately gave himself less to spend this past offseason.
RE: No one has screamed fix the defense more than me  
Rjanyg : 11/15/2019 11:40 am : link
In comment 14679728 djm said:
Quote:
But the biggest concern going forward should be the OL. Barkley and Jones need to be nurtured and thereís no better way than to build a good OL around them.

Also, every time the giants offense faces a pivotal moment, the play gets blown the hell up. More often than not people second guess the playcall and why not? The play blew up before it had any chance of success. Why did it play up? Was it because the other team knew what was coming? Maybe. But thatís a cop out excuse and hides the real issues. In 1990 everyone knew what the giants would run and it didnít matter. Same with 2007 at times. Didnít matter. The OL opened holes. We won.

Fix the OL. Priority one.


Amen to this. If you fix the O Line you can control the game. The key to the off season will be obtaining an OT and C. Zeitler, Hernandez are part of the solution and I am Hopeful Nick Gates continues to get playing time so it can be determined if he can be an NFL starting OT. The Center position is in need of a huge upgrade. Not sure who to target or where to get him from but you need to have a smart, athletic center to compete. A young Tackle is another priority. To add, a good 2 way TE is another position that needs to be added. I would prefer draft pick but if there is a guy that can be had in FA then so be it.

Once you can run the ball in this league it effects the rest of the team. Gettlemen knows this and I have to believe that he will continue to address this vital need.

After that, we need 3 starters on defense:

1. Pass rusher. If that is Chase Young then great. if not then I would go after Ngokue fron Jax.

2. Free Safety. Justin Simmons from Denver would be my target. If not him then Randall from Cleveland. This is a priority.

3. ILB. I would love to see a young guy in the draft like Isaiah Simmons from Clemson but it will take a 1st round pick to get him and I think we will be picking high. Shaq Thompson from Carolina would be a good fit. He can blitz, cover and tackle.

O Line first. These 3 positions next.
RE: When we win, it is usually because the opponent...  
santacruzom : 11/15/2019 11:44 am : link
In comment 14679610 EricJ said:
Quote:
beat themselves


Exactly, and the Giants don't seem to be aware of this. In fact they seem aggressively determined to be insulted when that is stated or even implied.
Try to win next year as much as you can  
giantstock : 11/15/2019 2:19 pm : link
If you believe in Jones and Barkley. These two will be a lot better next year especially if you give them TWO OLINEMEN.

In order to win they also have to be spending big on younger players in FA. No one over 28.
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If you think Gmen won't be any good in 2020 or even 2021- then you have to trade Barkley. Don't you? Trading Barkley I guess would all depend on how heavy you want to go in FA unless you feel the player you get - someone like Young would transform the defense in a year. But you don't have a big window with Barkley, do you?
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