I think DG is fine as a GM .... his biggest mistake was hiring Shurmur, letting PS hire Bettcher then let Bettcher have too much influence on getting ex Cardinals (except Golden) for his dopey defense... but I do agree with your other 3 recommendations.
I think DG is fine as a GM .... his biggest mistake was hiring Shurmur, letting PS hire Bettcher then let Bettcher have too much influence on getting ex Cardinals (except Golden) for his dopey defense... but I do agree with your other 3 recommendations.
Keep in mind my other points... He will be 69. If you are picking a new head coach, do you want the next GM encumbered with his guy? I wouldn't.
the OL. Everyone is hell bent on this OL being shit. I re-watched a couple of the last games and I'd say a 3rd to half the sacks being given up are DJ holding the ball to long. 2years ago we all figured the solution was having Eli get id of the ball in under 2 seconds. There are times when DJ could have lunch in the pocket and he isn't throwing it away. Don;t get me wrong, thte run blocking is attrocious. So I'd say a tackle and a center are what you need to get. Develop everyone else.
Defense is a must in the 1st round. Whether its an edge rusher an ILB, a safety or even another corner, they have to spend capital there and This is where I am in lock step with you. You have a QB and a RB. Your offense has shown the ability to put points on the board even against highly ranked defenses. Focus STRONGLY on improving the defense. FA's Drafts coaches. This maybe an offense first league, but you'll just be an also ran if your defense can't stop the other team at crucial times.
I particularly like your suggestion to emphasize defense. There's nothing worse than seeing teams march up and down the field against our defense year after year. 2016 was a breath of fresh air in the regard, reminded me of how fun it was to watch a dominating defense.
DG emphasized D pretty heavily this past offseason:
Peppers
Golden
Lawrence
Baker
Ximines
Love
Connelly
Ballentine
and more recently with the acquisition of Williams. Outside of a couple OL picks, I can easily see next years draft being heavy on D as well, especially if Slayton continues to develop as a legit #2/3 WR.
Sadly, I don't see Mara taking a honest look at what is wrong. He strikes me as too afraid to think outside the box & bring in people who aren't part of the Giants 'family'.
But I think there are better players on the team then you think. On defense it is the ILBs and FS that are bad. Good teams have LBs that fly and a FS that can cover. On top of it Bettcher's schemes are god awful. Every week they are 2 TDs down before the first beer is gone, then after they get back in the game, they fall apart in the 4th. How many games have they been in at the end of the 3rd only to get massacred in the 4th.
And absolutely, please dear God, build an offensive line. Clearly obvious that even with mediocre WRs(although Slayton has some skilz and Tate is a bulldog), Jones can get the ball to the open guy.
One decent ER, two fast ILBs, and a FS that can cover would really clean up the defense.
I think DG is fine as a GM .... his biggest mistake was hiring Shurmur, letting PS hire Bettcher then let Bettcher have too much influence on getting ex Cardinals (except Golden) for his dopey defense... but I do agree with your other 3 recommendations.
Keep in mind my other points... He will be 69. If you are picking a new head coach, do you want the next GM encumbered with his guy? I wouldn't.
Eric, With each passing year, 69 y seems younger and younger ... Also, BB, Pete Carroll, Nick Sagan and Bruce Arians are all about the same age and still coaching, which is a heckuva lot more stressful than being GM. Hell, our next president (anyone of the top 5 maybes) will be at least 75 by midterm.
I think DG is fine as a GM .... his biggest mistake was hiring Shurmur, letting PS hire Bettcher then let Bettcher have too much influence on getting ex Cardinals (except Golden) for his dopey defense... but I do agree with your other 3 recommendations.
that's not contrarian. the popular thinking is DG hasn't been the problem throwing the failure on the coaching staff. DG has been a disaster is the contrarian view.
Good Job, Eric! It lays a nice foundation.....but Â
If Abrams isn't the answer, are there any good GM candidates out there to consider? How about coaches?
One thing you didn't mention is the guy on either side of the ball that is an instigator to get the rest of the unit fired up. Antrel Rolle, Harry Carson, David Diehl....they all lit fires under their teammates either on the field or in the lockerroom. Who on this current squad does that? I don't really see anyone getting in Solder's face when DE's continually beat him like a drum nor do I see anyone jumping into Baker's space to give him a pep talk, guidance or even a lesson in-game.
I remember distinctly during the half-time of a Giants-Detroit game in the 80's that we were supposed to win easily where trailing 13-0 at half, Carson went nuts in the lockerroom and called out the guys pride.
I remember one particular game where Kenny Hill was using every play to point something out to the younger secondary members. Remember Sam Madison? Antrel Rolle? These guys wouldn't hesitate to correct mistakes or kick some butt in the huddle to make the team better.
Where are those guys now? and more importantly...where are those guys in the draft or in free agency?
I'd say Ogletree is the other guy expected to be the defensive leader, but he's been injured and/or awful.
Offensively - no idea, but with 3 vets (Solder, Zeitler, and Remmers) the OL really shouldn't need someone in their face. For skill players, Tate would probably be the vet leader, but he missed the first 4 games and has barely played with Shepard and Engram.
The sobering part is I don't think the Mara or Tisch family are going to go out of there comfort zone. Personally, I have been so beat up by this team, I am drifting away. A fresh, modern GM and coach hire would reinvigorate my passion into this team.
Right.....so Gettleman shouldn't get a pass on his roster overhaul Â
Granted there are a lot of younger players, but my god....there is no-one on this team (and frankly no-one since the days of Strahan, Diehl & Rolle) that can motivate or kick ass on the field.
There is very little on-field leadership...which leads me to believe that there is very little lockerroom leadership.
Maybe that is who we need to identify and sign this off-season....those guys!
1) 69 is young in general life (I see that more now than ever before) but not the football GM world, especially when coming off a major health issue.
2) The coaching staff has to go as they inspire nobody and have a track record that says bottom feeder. Time to clean house.
3) Oline is a HUGE need. Do not blame Jones for some of the sacks, that happens. When you can't play tough up front you do too many cute things, too many "soft" plays that doesn't wear the other teams defense out and just sends a message to your own team that we are relying on tricking the other team as we know we cannot out physical them. That has to change.
4) This team can no longer look outside and skill position to build around, they must build up the middle (oline overall) but Center specifically, DT (we have) LB (we fucking have nothing there) and Safety (we have one but need a play maker there)....
5)I would add we need to get two major things not mentioned specifically anywhere else- A) 2 way TE who can block above average and who has size and hands B) OLB who can change the game!
Mara stated at the beginning of the year that he wanted to see "progress" from the team. We really haven't seen it and we are 1 missed FG away from being 1-8. Sadly, I think you are right. It's time to clean house again, at least with the coaching staff.
I'm not a fire the coach guy. But, I've just not seen enough from Shurmur to keep him after the year is over...so far. Bad game day decisions. No creativity in the offensive play calling. In his defense, Jones has progressed, except for the fumbles. He's coaching for his job now, but it is likely, barring a dramatic turnaround, that he is gone along with his coaching staff.
As far as DG goes, I'm not sure what to do. I think he has drafted well. I think he knows talent. He has guts. I'm torn on that one. I think if they truly want to clean house, the front office/scouting needs to be part of it though. So, if you fire Shurmur, you have to fire DG too.
I think Dave deserves another year and I do believe he had restrictions on him regarding Eli. I fully believe Eli was finishing his contract.
Does Abrams have any football background? If he is hired I would think Chris Mara gets more power? Not good
I agree with the defensive philosophy of getting strong on D. The NFC East has always been about Defense imo. We a couple moves this off season I think they can get there as soon as next year.
You always here about the QB elevating the team. I think sometimes it is misguided but I do really believe the right HC can get this going quickly as long as they hit big on the two first draft picks and add three quality starters in FA.
Linebackers are the heart and soul of the defense Â
Players aren’t going to listen to other players that get smashed in the mouth or constantly miss tackles. Deandre Baker, our 180 lb corner plays with more aggression and passion then our 7 year vet supposed ”leader” Ogletree. How are we supposed to win when our linebacker unit is the softest unit on the field. Bethea should just retire, like tomorrow. My perception of him was way better before he joined this team.
Mara stated at the beginning of the year that he wanted to see "progress" from the team. We really haven't seen it and we are 1 missed FG away from being 1-8. Sadly, I think you are right. It's time to clean house again, at least with the coaching staff.
I'm not a fire the coach guy. But, I've just not seen enough from Shurmur to keep him after the year is over...so far. Bad game day decisions. No creativity in the offensive play calling. In his defense, Jones has progressed, except for the fumbles. He's coaching for his job now, but it is likely, barring a dramatic turnaround, that he is gone along with his coaching staff.
As far as DG goes, I'm not sure what to do. I think he has drafted well. I think he knows talent. He has guts. I'm torn on that one. I think if they truly want to clean house, the front office/scouting needs to be part of it though. So, if you fire Shurmur, you have to fire DG too.
Sad times in East Rutherford.
Firing coaches often isn't the answer. But does anyone honestly see this coaching staff being in charge of an 11-5 team at some point?
If they are back in 2020, they'll be gone in 2021.
Secondary has some young players with talent Ballantine, Baker, Haley (better tackler than coverage) - not sure about Beal. Problem with Giant defense is LB corps.
OL - yeah they need someone else shopping for the groceries.
-return to defensive greatness by hiring a great DC: OK, you did say make the next HC hire a defensive minded guy, but it's not like they're intentionally hiring a meh DC.
-fix the OL by properly scouting OL: Once again, you did say analyze the past mistakes/who picked them and stop listening to them. But, suggesting they look far and wide would indicate they only looked far and said 'yeah that's good enough'.
-GO DEFENSE...but make OL a priority. I'd say going D has been the priority under DG. This past draft was D heavy. There's limited resources. making OL a priority means the D has to slip a little in allocation.
One of your points was very spot on: they need to analyze past mistakes and stop listening to those that advocated for those actions. that includes the Maras. figure out what the hell Chris does and analyze his part of the equation. IF John's been putting his fingers in the pie, analyze his ass, too.
OK, two were spot on: pick a football minded GM and let him pick his coaches. If, as alleged by many, the Maras do the coach picking, they need to step away. Let the GM run the football side of the equation.
Thanks. Your idea of replacing Gettleman with Abrams this off-season isn't appealing but seems a good compromise position given the Giants emphasis open continuity. My issue is that I have no reason to believe Abrams has the scouting insight to handle the GM job. Maybe he has it, maybe he doesn't. And I don't believe Mara has the insight or objectivity to know either.
Abrams background. makes Mark Koncz a key individual in this leadership change, assuming he is retained. Mark Koncz Giants.com - ( New Window )
-return to defensive greatness by hiring a great DC: OK, you did say make the next HC hire a defensive minded guy, but it's not like they're intentionally hiring a meh DC.
-fix the OL by properly scouting OL: Once again, you did say analyze the past mistakes/who picked them and stop listening to them. But, suggesting they look far and wide would indicate they only looked far and said 'yeah that's good enough'.
-GO DEFENSE...but make OL a priority. I'd say going D has been the priority under DG. This past draft was D heavy. There's limited resources. making OL a priority means the D has to slip a little in allocation.
One of your points was very spot on: they need to analyze past mistakes and stop listening to those that advocated for those actions. that includes the Maras. figure out what the hell Chris does and analyze his part of the equation. IF John's been putting his fingers in the pie, analyze his ass, too.
OK, two were spot on: pick a football minded GM and let him pick his coaches. If, as alleged by many, the Maras do the coach picking, they need to step away. Let the GM run the football side of the equation.
Totally agree with the GM hiring the coach. Mara has alluded over the years about this "committee" thing and he is meddling. I wonder how much he is sharing his brother or other family members wishes.
-return to defensive greatness by hiring a great DC: OK, you did say make the next HC hire a defensive minded guy, but it's not like they're intentionally hiring a meh DC.
-fix the OL by properly scouting OL: Once again, you did say analyze the past mistakes/who picked them and stop listening to them. But, suggesting they look far and wide would indicate they only looked far and said 'yeah that's good enough'.
-GO DEFENSE...but make OL a priority. I'd say going D has been the priority under DG. This past draft was D heavy. There's limited resources. making OL a priority means the D has to slip a little in allocation.
One of your points was very spot on: they need to analyze past mistakes and stop listening to those that advocated for those actions. that includes the Maras. figure out what the hell Chris does and analyze his part of the equation. IF John's been putting his fingers in the pie, analyze his ass, too.
OK, two were spot on: pick a football minded GM and let him pick his coaches. If, as alleged by many, the Maras do the coach picking, they need to step away. Let the GM run the football side of the equation.
Reese/Ross stuck with Flowers and Hart far longer than they should have with NO insurance policy if they failed.
Gettleman seems to have gone into this season sure that Solder's 2018 season was a fluke.
As I mentioned in the article, they have spent a lot of resources on the OL. But they have also made some risky assumptions that came back to bite them in the ass.
Ownership is highly unlikely to change the way they do business. The only time they act is when they see empty seats. The team has a history of letting coaches hang around at least a year longer than they should, and GMs, it's several years longer than they should. This time won't be any different. Shurmer will struggle through NEXT year and then get fired. DG will be here at LEAST 5 years. Abrams will take over and the cycle will continue.
I can't even picture them bringing in a young talented outsider.
That said, I believe the Giants CAN rebuild the roster under Gettleman. I see what he's TRYING to do, but it WILL take more time. Not what anyone wants to hear, but you can't fix this many problems in 2 offseasons. If you want the stud pass rushers and OTs, you have to pass on guys like Barkley and Jones, or get luckier later. That's not the way the draft played out. You don't shop hungry.
I think many of the guys DG drafted may turn out fine -- Jones looks like the real deal. That's THE most important thing. Slayton looks like a steal, Hernandez, Lawrence. Book's out on some of the others.
But yeah, they need to draft or find stud pass rushers, stud OTs. After that, they need to actually get some NFL-starting-caliber LBs. Previous management never felt LBs mattered in a 4-3, but you're in a 3-4 now. LBs now matter!
On acquiring FAs, I think EVERYONE KNEW Solder was an expensive band-aid, but one they HAD to have. Sometimes you ARE forced to overpay for average talent. JPP's last contract comes to mind. Too much to pay for a guy who misses 10 games a season.
We all OK with Golden Tate now that he's served his 4 games? I am.
I'm ok with Zeitler when he's healthy.
Peppers . . . I'm willing to wait and see what happens with a different DC. He's still only 24.
Markus Golden looks pretty good, but he can't do it alone.
Leonard Williams may well end up being a very nice puzzle piece (I assume they will resign him) but having all these good, young DTs is no substitute for NOT having pass rushers. And LBs.
I don't see them breaking the bank for any ONE FA (like Clowney) this offseason. There are too many holes to have all your eggs in one basket. THAT is why OBJ is gone. Use one asset to plug 3 holes.
We don't know what the young CB will turn into yet, but they haven't had an IMPACT FS that I can recall in my lifetime. Don't say Kenny Phillips -- he was here or good long enough to count.
AS FAR AS THE COACHES GO, I'm with you! I'd be fine with a Defensive coach, but he has to be a hard-ass who actually makes his players afraid to screw up. I keep saying this:
Can anyone here picture Pat Shurmer tearing his players a new asshole? The way Parcells or Coughlin would have?
This team makes the same mistakes week in and week out. Some of it is lack of talent (and rookie inexperience), but some of it is not. A lot of it is mental mistakes.
A disciplinarian coach makes his player afraid to make those mistakes. A disciplinarian coach keeps his players on their toes and enforces consequences for screw-ups.
Anyone think these players are afraid of Shurmer?
Think any of these players hate him (the way they hated Parcells and Coughlin)?
Anyone think these guys are running gassers in practice for bad game play?
They need an ass-kicker coach who keeps them on their toes all the time.
As for Betcher, I'm not sure anyone would do MUCH better with a defense this bad, but there are too many red flags. Why keep playing Baker 5 yards off his man? Why leave Jenkins on Mike Evans SO long? Why are the same mistakes being made week after week?
He ain't the guy.
Also with you on putting the pro and draft scouts under the microscope, but I think they do that anyway. Not sure if WE would hear of any changes there, regardless.
Don't overspend in FA, the Giants need to understand this is a rebuilding process. If they can absorb contracts from other teams for Day 2 picks, that should be the priority. I'd tried to go after FAs at positions the league values less. Namely, ILB, S, and C. The only exceptions I'd make are for Bradberry or Jones at CB.
In the draft...
If there's good value for a LT in round 1, that'd be ideal. Jerry Jeudy is a really good WR, but I hope we don't go in this direction if an OT (or CB) are on the board. In fact, I think Okudah is the best CB to come out of Ohio St.
We also need to start learning to trade down. All the best drafting teams are viewed as the best drafting teams because they have a lot of draft picks. We need to hit a home run on every pick because we have so few picks.
On coaching...
Eric has nailed this, we need to give coaches a shorter leash and admit our mistakes quicker. I liked the Shurmur and Bettcher hirings. But, they haven't worked out. We need to move on.
How long are you going to give the new regime? You think they can fix all this in a year? A year and a half? Two?
Because I think anything less than three years is absurd, yet that's exactly what you're expecting from this current regime - and this current regime will have left the team in MUCH better shape than did the regime before it.
Spot on with the organizational changes. Right now they are so stuck in the old school approach to football it has rotted the core out of the apple of the NYG
Dinosaur Dave has to go as we don't want him with $100m to spend and make the epidemic mistakes he has shown in FA already and what Reese did and got us in a bind quickly with bad contracts
The #1 decision is around the Org. It all rolls downhill and the GM decision of staying or going is key IMHO. They choose and have to work with the coach. Firing shurmur and keeping DG is not the route to go.
If your changing things, do it wholesale Mara's/Tisch and dont be a bunch of pussies. Whats the difference of 2-14 or 5-11 or ????
Get new blood (I like Matt Rhule as coach, Dan Quinn as DC) in this house. Rhule's buyout at Baylor is too much $$$
Once you have a new approach/coach/GM, you can then figure out the rest. 100M to maybe spend in FA (think quality players and don't overspend...ie Williams) or save....some......and getting the OL and D fixed
about the ownership of the Giants, the GM and the HC are completely dead on. There is no doubt that if the Giants are going to rebound, they will need to take a good hard look at how they manage this team from a structural stand point.
I agree 100% that the Giants believed that the NFL was moving toward a more "basketball on grass" mentality and attempted to build a roster and hire a HC to fit that mold. I really think that the Giants under Reece and MacAdoo wanted to build an offensive juggernaut around Eli and win shootouts 35-31 like the Chiefs and Saints (during Brees' prime). It failed miserably.
DG seems to fit the old school mold of winning football games you're looking for. Build the OL and DL - run the football - punch them in the mouth. Which is why the PS pick as a HC was so odd.
Free agency does not win you championships, good drafting builds dynasties. After going through 3 years of chucking my remote and cursing storms after our 1st round picks, I finally have a GM that I not only trust to make the pick but am damn excited when he does.
I see too many gm’s around the league botch draft picks alllllll the time. I am one that does not believe the grass is greener at all. We were so close!!!! Todd Gurley, Laremy Tunsil, and Ryan Ramczyck!!!!! We let those three players go to three teams that are now fckin Super Bowl contenders!!!
Gettleman needs to keep drafting heat, and get a competent coach in here ASAP before we lose the young men on this team. I want the guy who found Darius slayton and Ryan Connelly in the fifth. If we fire DG now, he’ll be rehired in days, probably not as a GM, but I’m not tryna give away Gettleman like we gave away Coughlin.
Although I questioned the choice of Gettleman due to his age, I do think he has done a decent job overall, only to have it totally neutered by THE MOST INEPT AND INCOMPETENT coaching staff I have ever seen.
Also remember that due to the total incompetence of the prior GM/draft boss and the last coach, this reconstruction was pretty much akin to starting with an expansion team.
That said, desperate times call for desperate measures. has John Mara got the balls to take them? Unfortunately I don't think so.
I think the most frustrating thing is that the Giants won't hire a fresh voice.
I hated the Gettleman hire when it was made and while some of his draft choices have been solid and a definite improvement, this guy has no right to think he is the smartest guy in the room. When we talk about free agency, think Jonathan Stewart.
Building the offensive line - look NE with Marshall Newhouse playing left tackle. There is something to a system and blocking schemes.
On the coach, Shurmer is terrible, the George Costanza analogy was classic. Gettleman should not be allowed to hire the next coach.
To eric's point, going back to our roots, the guy I'd like to see us targeting as a coach is the Defensive Coordinator from the 49ers. He seems like a guy, whose players play with great effort and emotion and always seem to be in the right place.
article. This is what concerns me most in the offseason:
"For those who say the Giants will have a ton of cap space so they can afford to overspend, I say no."
Gentleman's FA acquisitions have been very poor, and he might well try and overspend to try and fix the team immediately. Large FA acquisitions have a poor track record of success.
reflecting on post more, yes, I am saying two things that will impact each other: focus on defense and focus on the OL. And you are correct, there are limited resources.
But this is where I'd spend all available resources.
My problem with the current coaching staff is not just Shurmur, but Betcher. They gave Betcher a bunch of new toys to work with (draft picks and free agents) and the defense is getting worse.
As I said, the arrow doesn't appear to be pointing up. This is not based on the last game, but the last six games.
about the ownership of the Giants, the GM and the HC are completely dead on. There is no doubt that if the Giants are going to rebound, they will need to take a good hard look at how they manage this team from a structural stand point.
I agree 100% that the Giants believed that the NFL was moving toward a more "basketball on grass" mentality and attempted to build a roster and hire a HC to fit that mold. I really think that the Giants under Reece and MacAdoo wanted to build an offensive juggernaut around Eli and win shootouts 35-31 like the Chiefs and Saints (during Brees' prime). It failed miserably.
DG seems to fit the old school mold of winning football games you're looking for. Build the OL and DL - run the football - punch them in the mouth. Which is why the PS pick as a HC was so odd.
Shurmur ran the ball almost 50% of the time in Minnesota. Maybe that was Zimmer influenced. He also had way more boots, rolls with the QB. The current offense is nothing like what he ran in Minnesota.
I think Dave thought he was getting that offense. Maybe Pat has determined the Giants can't run the ball but then why these runs up the middle?
that the interior of the NYG's OL would have been a strength of this team at the beginning of the season and the play of the tackles as the season progressed certainly didn't change my mind about creating running lanes on either side of either tackle.
And I hear ya on the PS hire and the amount of running of the football they did in Minny. BUT if you look at his time as the Eagles offensive coordinator - he was much more pass heavy.
is much more about how I never envisioned Shurmur as a punch you in the mouth, we are going to ram the football down your throat and beat you up in the trenches kind of guy.
Which is odd for Gettleman b/c he strikes me as an old school football guy would be looking for a HC that had more of that type of mind set about how the game should be played.
Ron Rivera fits the mold more to me - which I believe - DG inherited and kept.
Giants won't get better - even with Daniel Jones developing and Saquon Barkley carrying the ball - until they get a good defense and at least an average offensive line.
DL is set with Lawrence, Hill, Tomlinson, and I assume Williams. What this team needs is two OLB edge rushers. That's who traditionally applies pressure in a 3-4. We also need at least two LBs that can cover and run, as well as a free safety, although Love can hopefully fill that latter role. That's a lot to acquire in one offseason. Too much IMO.
On offense, we need two tackles, a center, at least one WR, and possibly a TE. A second WR will be necessary if Shepard can't return next season.
All of this is after two draft and FA classes, and the blockbuster OBJ trade.
DL is set with Lawrence, Hill, Tomlinson, and I assume Williams. What this team needs is two OLB edge rushers. That's who traditionally applies pressure in a 3-4. We also need at least two LBs that can cover and run, as well as a free safety, although Love can hopefully fill that latter role. That's a lot to acquire in one offseason. Too much IMO.
On offense, we need two tackles, a center, at least one WR, and possibly a TE. A second WR will be necessary if Shepard can't return next season.
All of this is after two draft and FA classes, and the blockbuster OBJ trade.
Don't assume that Leonard Williams will want to re-sign here. It's a shit show.
DL is set with Lawrence, Hill, Tomlinson, and I assume Williams. What this team needs is two OLB edge rushers. That's who traditionally applies pressure in a 3-4. We also need at least two LBs that can cover and run, as well as a free safety, although Love can hopefully fill that latter role. That's a lot to acquire in one offseason. Too much IMO.
On offense, we need two tackles, a center, at least one WR, and possibly a TE. A second WR will be necessary if Shepard can't return next season.
All of this is after two draft and FA classes, and the blockbuster OBJ trade.
Acid - I think a second draft WR is not necessary. You still have Tate, Slayton, and a draft pick. That's w/o Sheppard.
You've got Engram - for better or worse - at TE.
Not that you don't go there, but those are areas that are at least satisfied for 2020.
The Giants have not had any "star quality" assistent coaches or coordinators in years. Have any recent ex-Giant coaches advanced their careers after leaving?
Coaching is critical in the NFL. Our players, as individuals, are not as bad as the results they are getting. As a team, you are what your record says you are.
My thoughts
Gettleman is fine as GM.
Improve pro-personel scouting department to do better in FA evaluation.
Hire and pay for top-notch assistant coaches. Especially at OL and DL. Line coaches are very often the personalities that drive a team's energy.
Improve defensive personnel at LB and S. These positions are tone setters. Think Ray Lewis, LT, Harry Carson, Ronnie Lott, Ed Reed, etc...
Improve OL on offense. Again, they set the tone.
We are not many years away, but I keep seeing the same mistakes. Slow starts (understatement of the year), a lack of discipline. There needs to be more attention to detail. The schemes don't matter if you don't play with passion.
Put simply, the best teams have a swarming defense and a physical offense. We have neither.
But you forgot to credit bw in dc and Daniel in MI as that has pretty much sums up their views :)
I actually think a new head coach with a different play calling/system philosophy will make our current offensive line look a lot better. Combined with a new line coach and strength program.
Barkley's subpar play could be all injury related. Or it may not be. He may simply not trust his offensive line. He may be trying to do too much. He may be suffering from the sophomore jinx.
What we do know is his pass protection has been inexcusable. Parcells would have benched him.
Before you marry a woman, you have to ask yourself, "Is this someone I can envision spending the rest of my life with?" If the answer is no, you move on.
Is your head coach someone you honestly see winning a Super Bowl? If not, you move on.
Shurmur ran the ball almost 50% of the time in Minnesota. Maybe that was Zimmer influenced. He also had way more boots, rolls with the QB. The current offense is nothing like what he ran in Minnesota.
Neither is the talent of a single offensive lineman, WR, or versatile TE - but other than that comparing Shurmur's offense in MIN and his here is completely spot on.
you were doing so well until you just caved to Abrams being the heir apparent.
While I agree that is likely the idiotic plan, that is just more of the same. A guy essentially over-exposed and brain washed to tenets of the "Giants Way".
That is the LAST thing we need if we jettison DG. We need a young, new voice, new ideas with ZERO ties to Jints Central.
Our frustrations as Giant fans go way deep because we have been losing for 7 years. But 2013-2017 are not the fault of DG and Coach Shurmur. They are in year 2 of a complete rebuild. We'll be a better team next year and a good team in 2021. The team has many good/promising players that are in year 1, 2 or 3. They found our future QB, which is huge. Agree, the OL is crucial. I think DG has the talent to fix it, especially with a big step forward via the 2020 draft. Agree, OL talent in FA this year will be costly and competitive, so the Giants must be careful there. Would like to see the Giants search for the best possible OL coach. Hunter has coached NFL OL's for 10 years, but we can do better. Shurmur is such a good dude, I would like to see him get every opportunity to succeed. Defensively, a couple of linebackers and improvement from the young DB's can transform the defense.
Our frustrations as Giant fans go way deep because we have been losing for 7 years. But 2013-2017 are not the fault of DG and Coach Shurmur. They are in year 2 of a complete rebuild. We'll be a better team next year and a good team in 2021. The team has many good/promising players that are in year 1, 2 or 3. They found our future QB, which is huge. Agree, the OL is crucial. I think DG has the talent to fix it, especially with a big step forward via the 2020 draft. Agree, OL talent in FA this year will be costly and competitive, so the Giants must be careful there. Would like to see the Giants search for the best possible OL coach. Hunter has coached NFL OL's for 10 years, but we can do better. Shurmur is such a good dude, I would like to see him get every opportunity to succeed. Defensively, a couple of linebackers and improvement from the young DB's can transform the defense.
Yes and no. Figureheads have changed and some small changes to scouting staff. But for the most part, the organizational structure is the same with many of the same players doing the same things they've always done.
you were doing so well until you just caved to Abrams being the heir apparent.
While I agree that is likely the idiotic plan, that is just more of the same. A guy essentially over-exposed and brain washed to tenets of the "Giants Way".
That is the LAST thing we need if we jettison DG. We need a young, new voice, new ideas with ZERO ties to Jints Central.
Otherwise, this insanity ain't changin'...
bw, we knew Gettleman was going to be the GM. Abrams is going to be the next guy. It is what it is.
There's no doubt that we need one that's a helluva lot better than the one we have.
Ditto for the OL.
At this point, I'd settle for marginally better for either.
If I used the word "great", I didn't mean to (I don't think I did). Asking for "greatness" gets into the fanciful thinking area. I am simply asking for a good, solid defense that beats up the other team.
How long are you going to give the new regime? You think they can fix all this in a year? A year and a half? Two?
Because I think anything less than three years is absurd, yet that's exactly what you're expecting from this current regime - and this current regime will have left the team in MUCH better shape than did the regime before it.
What you need to see is progress. There is not a date by which the club is "fixed." The alternative is you guarantee them three years and essentially there is no accountability for the first few.
I would disagree that DG/PS are leaving this team better than they found it. The inherited a mess and they still have a mess.
Barkley's subpar play could be all injury related. Or it may not be. He may simply not trust his offensive line. He may be trying to do too much. He may be suffering from the sophomore jinx.
What we do know is his pass protection has been inexcusable. Parcells would have benched him.
Agreed. I think Parcells would have benched him. He's being run over, and not just by DL, but also by safeties.
promise as a CF type FS that would be a huge + for this defense.
That's why they have to play him - any young player that can show something is one less piece they have to address in the draft or FA during the off season. They don't have to start - they just have to show that they are roster worthy. Create competition at every position during camp - get some real game tape on these guys so they can improve - start freakin building a team for next year now so we aren't behind the 8 ball all the time.
Play Gates - if he shows he can hang at RT - GREAT if not, we know it needs addressing.
Play Gallman - SB is hurting - is Gallman the answer as #2 back if so GREAT - if not - let's address it
Play Ballentine, play Beal, and anyone else that might be part of the future and let's see what they can do.
Activate some of these guys off the practice squad. They're going to need a 4th and 5th WR next year - is that guy on the roster now? Maybe - but we'll never freakin' know if they don't play. They're going to need guys that can play ST.
Don't give another freakin minute to JAGS like Bethea, Michael Thomas, Cody Latimer, Mike Remmers, Bennie Freakin' Fowler (are you serious - dude is 28 yrs old - why is he playing at all?).
The Giants season is over - let's be forward thinking NOW and see what else is on this roster can/wants to play.
Oh by the way - they haven't done this ANY of the last two years when they sucked just as bad.
there's something else bubbling beneath the surface: The Giants Way. Almost like they want to say it but can't.
What does that mean exactly? A general strategy that is asked of whoever is coaching the team? Sure seems that way. The Giants D is a perfect example: Spags is a blitz happy aggressive guy from the JJ tree and gets here and drops 7 much of the time. Bettcher is a blitz happy guy from AZ who plays press man. Gets here and does the exact same thing Spags did.
Are these guys being told to play the Rod Rust bend don't break style? We've been watching the Giants Way recipe for years, heard Tom & Eli say it many times: Keep the game close and try to win in the 4th quarter. Bend don't break plays right into it. I even remember Coughlin talking about a New York Giants Playbook that seems to transcend coaches.
I see much more fault with Shurmur than I do Gettleman but since Gettleman picked Shurmur, I guess you have to start there.
I don't see how the next GM isn't Abrams so given that and Gettleman's age, they may as well make the switch next year and focus on the new head coach.
Everything below assumes I can't get BB, Saban or John Harbaugh. If I could, I would move heaven and earth to do so.
I don't lean offense or defense but if we're talking about coordinators, I'd take a long look at the crop of special teams coordinators. Their jobs most closely resemble the head coach role in managing multiple units rather than a singular focus. I don't want another "QB guru" to come in and miss the big picture like Shurmur has.
My Head Coach search would include 3 special teams coordinators, a couple who have great reputations with units that perform year in and year out, and another we are more familiar with from his time as a player here and has his unit in the top 10 according to football outsiders. I think this is a really interesting group.
Dave Toub
John Fassel
Chase Blackburn
I would also love to talk to Kris Richard.
He has an excellent body of work in both Seattle and Dallas and seems to have really taken over the majority of the calls from Marinelli for a terrific Dallas defense. Taking from Dallas is another obvious benefit here.
My top choice however is probably Dan Campbell. Has played for Parcells and coached next to Payton for years now. I like the idea of Parcells>>Payton>>Campbell and I have to believe a lot of the football philosophies are in line. If you can get a guy like Payton without his douche personality you've got a hell of a football coach.
Lots of opinion that folks of like minded opinion Â
Since I disagree with a lot of the opinions stated above, like that the online of Solder, Hernandez, Pio, Zeitler and Remmers is no better than the Flowers, Pugh, Richburg, Jerry, Hart line was.
Points like that OL of 2017 giving up instant sacks, sacks that poured through the A gaps, and this line operates in front of a QB who's still in diapers reading the field and often holds the ball too long, details like that matter and make the arguments like "the OL still sucks" disingenuous.
Dangerously disingenuous. Or that pulling the plug on DG after 2 seasons is ridiculous when to many eyes the drafts look much much better than Reese's Ross's were...
So Carter and Hill haven't lived up to our hopes? Again how do they compare with Jerrel Jernigan and Ramses Barden?
Two of those 4 guys are indeed NFL players and the other two were not!
Finding the biggest pitchfork and taking a stance at the front of the mob isn't exactly a heroic act IMO, and I neither laud nor agree with it.
Even if I'm seriously concerned about Pat Shurmer as HC.
Aside from the mixed metaphor (treading water and being a Â
bottom feeder), this is a perfect analysis. Unfortunately, in terms of the central problems -- leadership, coaching, evaluating talent at key positions other than QB, WR and D-line -- you could have cut-and-pasted it from similar pieces you've written for years. That's quite an indictment of things at the top.
RE: Aside from the mixed metaphor (treading water and being a Â
bottom feeder), this is a perfect analysis. Unfortunately, in terms of the central problems -- leadership, coaching, evaluating talent at key positions other than QB, WR and D-line -- you could have cut-and-pasted it from similar pieces you've written for years. That's quite an indictment of things at the top.
LOL on the mixed metaphor... I should have caught that.
I hope someone from management reads this and brings it to Mara's Â
attention.. Contents of how to fix it may or may not be perfect but bald statements were made and those are the statements of majority of the fans here..
My biggest disappointment is the Defense, I still can’t figure out exactly what defense scheme he is trying to run, nothing is working. Halfway through yr 2 and it’s worse. If over the next 3 games Danny can stop fumbling and Saquan can avoid getting killed , I’ll consider that a success.
assessments are more than warranted. We're tired of 4-12 seasons that are over before Halloween. The biggest concern is that no progress has been made to solving long standing problems despite a huge expenditure of resources, with the OL being the prime example.
Repeating the same action and expecting different results.
The Giants are stuck in a time warp. The best teams in the NFL are not run by powerful all knowing GMs who shape and mold championship teams from the cushy confines of the front office. The best teams are run by Head Coaches that dictate the culture of the entire organization from staff, to scouts, to players and salaries. Belicheck does not answer to a GM. Neither does Sean Payton Andy Reid or Pete Carroll.
In my mind the best thing that Mara/Tisch can do to modernize the team is hire the best HC available that can come in immediately and develop Jones, while at the same time installing a relentless work ethic and hungry attitude throughout the entire organization to find, train and develop the best players at every level. In my mind that would be someone like Josh McDaniels or Lincoln Riley, but regardless the HC needs to have input on whover is running the front office.
Putzing around with another life-long Giants front office suit as GM would just be another couple years wasted expecting different results.
Sadly, I don't see Mara taking a honest look at what is wrong. He strikes me as too afraid to think outside the box & bring in people who aren't part of the Giants 'family'.
This is top of the problem, unless Mara breaks this, all the rest of the piece will just be the same sputtering process. Change your ways and we might see things change for the better. Period
Your frustration is clearly with the Previous GM and roster he built Â
This GM has had 2 yrs to fully rebuild a broken system.
Eli carried this team on his back during the erosion of talent. Now we are headed in the right direction. some of the needed parts are on the roster and most certainly some are not.
This will be addressed thru free agency and draft again. What I like is the team does seem to have a good attitude on the field and even though they constantly shoot themselves in the foot -rookies mistakes mostly and a serious lack of talent at linebacker and edge rushers they keep fighting to win. You don't pull the plug on that -even if the record is horrid.
In fact im glad we will be getting another high draft pick.. another potential blue chip to add. One of the frustrating things for me was team stayed middle of field for drafts when they really needed to be at the top.
I do agree that we need to rebuild our scouting system especially when it comes to the line and linebackers but they did a much better the last 2 years. So chill relax and don't let the frustrations of the last regime upset you.
About Betcher -everyone wanted him and Arians said he was a stud D coach. I believe him. He too needs time
Shurmur needs to get a team together before he can be judged.
Don't forget most of you hated Accorsi, Young, Parcells, Belichek, Coughlin Spags too. It takes time.
The offensive line and defense are getting worse with each game. Saquon is already affected. Soon Daniel Jones will be impacted too (folks are legitimately concerned about the fumbles, but he's getting clobbered back there).
Gettleman said his #1 priority was Hog Mollies. He's failed miserably.
Since I disagree with a lot of the opinions stated above, like that the online of Solder, Hernandez, Pio, Zeitler and Remmers is no better than the Flowers, Pugh, Richburg, Jerry, Hart line was.
Points like that OL of 2017 giving up instant sacks, sacks that poured through the A gaps, and this line operates in front of a QB who's still in diapers reading the field and often holds the ball too long, details like that matter and make the arguments like "the OL still sucks" disingenuous.
Dangerously disingenuous. Or that pulling the plug on DG after 2 seasons is ridiculous when to many eyes the drafts look much much better than Reese's Ross's were...
So Carter and Hill haven't lived up to our hopes? Again how do they compare with Jerrel Jernigan and Ramses Barden?
Two of those 4 guys are indeed NFL players and the other two were not!
Finding the biggest pitchfork and taking a stance at the front of the mob isn't exactly a heroic act IMO, and I neither laud nor agree with it.
Even if I'm seriously concerned about Pat Shurmer as HC.
The offensive line and defense are getting worse with each game. Saquon is already affected. Soon Daniel Jones will be impacted too (folks are legitimately concerned about the fumbles, but he's getting clobbered back there).
Gettleman said his #1 priority was Hog Mollies. He's failed miserably.
It looks better to me. First we are NOT getting blown off the field as soon as the game starts. This QB has had time to scan the field much more than ELi the last 2 yrs. The hog mollies -we drafted 2 one is playing and looks the part the other we traded for -a very unpopular trade but has now been proven to be correct same with drafting QB DJ. Solder was a stop gap that was needed -Flowers was getting killed. Omemah was a cheap shot that didn't worked -but he wanted Norwell who went to Jax instead. Kid looked pretty good last week at RT and Id like to see some playing time for big George too -but that's for next year.
Saquon is hurt -he is playing hurt he doesn't have the burst or strength he had before the injury -he will be fine but it might be awhile.
The DL played well and I like the parts added Williams was a good get. Our LBrs are trash. Ogletree was a need for someone in the middle to call out the Defense. I would have rather gone a different direction but Betcher needed someone. Same reason why sign Bethea. The Rookies tho look ok -growing pains sure but not getting blown off the field. We need LBrs!!!! We have needed them since Gettleman signed Antonio Pierce.
But expecting this team to quickly become a playyyyyoff team is unrealistic.
Sadly, it makes no difference to the owners. I thought Wellington was bad but John is much worse. He is not going to listen to thoughtful advice from anyone except his crony friends.
The offensive line and defense are getting worse with each game. Saquon is already affected. Soon Daniel Jones will be impacted too (folks are legitimately concerned about the fumbles, but he's getting clobbered back there).
Gettleman said his #1 priority was Hog Mollies. He's failed miserably.
It looks better to me. First we are NOT getting blown off the field as soon as the game starts. This QB has had time to scan the field much more than ELi the last 2 yrs. The hog mollies -we drafted 2 one is playing and looks the part the other we traded for -a very unpopular trade but has now been proven to be correct same with drafting QB DJ. Solder was a stop gap that was needed -Flowers was getting killed. Omemah was a cheap shot that didn't worked -but he wanted Norwell who went to Jax instead. Kid looked pretty good last week at RT and Id like to see some playing time for big George too -but that's for next year.
Saquon is hurt -he is playing hurt he doesn't have the burst or strength he had before the injury -he will be fine but it might be awhile.
The DL played well and I like the parts added Williams was a good get. Our LBrs are trash. Ogletree was a need for someone in the middle to call out the Defense. I would have rather gone a different direction but Betcher needed someone. Same reason why sign Bethea. The Rookies tho look ok -growing pains sure but not getting blown off the field. We need LBrs!!!! We have needed them since Gettleman signed Antonio Pierce.
But expecting this team to quickly become a playyyyyoff team is unrealistic.
All I can say is HUH? We are not getting blown off the field at the start of the game? The Jets drove down the field to open the game as if we weren't there. Then we went 3 and out, including a fumble, and they drove the field again. This was how many games in a row where we gave up a TD to open the game? And how many in a row where we did not score?
As for the OL, Solder has not been better than Flowers, which is saying a lot. But, we are paying him as a top OL. Hernandez seems to have regressed, or at the very least not gotten any better. We have no viable OC, Zeitler is a good, but not special RG, and Remmers is as bad as Solder at RT. We have no viable depth to replace the 3 stiffs.
This has contributed greatly to Barkley doing nothing for a few weeks and Jones continually under pressure.
The D is absolutely putrid. There is no better way to describe them. And trading a 3rd round pick (assuming we re-sign him) for a FA who has underwhelmed the team that traded him at #6 was beyond stupid. If he plays decently for us, it drives up his asking price, which is already high, without having any real impact on the outcome of this season. If they liked him so much, they should have allowed him to continue to get double teamed on the Jets and pay less for him in FA.
There was so little talent on this team 2 years ago it's hard to fathom. DG had to find 20 new starters and 10 decent backups including a franchise QB. And there need to be a handful of pro bowlers in there as well. Some of that is done, most of it isn't.
Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.
There was so little talent on this team 2 years ago it's hard to fathom. DG had to find 20 new starters and 10 decent backups including a franchise QB. And there need to be a handful of pro bowlers in there as well. Some of that is done, most of it isn't.
Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.
We had some talent, but traded just about all the talent we had for a hot dog and bag of peanuts.
Before you marry a woman, you have to ask yourself, "Is this someone I can envision spending the rest of my life with?" If the answer is no, you move on.
Is your head coach someone you honestly see winning a Super Bowl? If not, you move on.
This sums up my feeling about PS. Will he be a decent coach if we give a roster? Probably, but I'm having a hard time believing he can win a Superbowl with the mistakes he makes. Andy Reid still hasn't, and he may prove he needs an elite QB to do so. PS isn't even close to Reid's level.
Defenses are at a disadvantage due to offensive innovation, and that's not going to change anytime soon.
Building the team around defense is going right back to the NY Giants well. You want to break the cycle, but you're just going right back to the beginning of the cycle.
Think ahead, and think innovatively. We were disrupters with 4 DE defensive line or the amazing LB and defense we had in the 80s. We have to disrupt again.
I agree that the team needs to build the OL and protect the big investment at QB, and to a lesser extent RB.
After that build the defense, and if you are going to run a 3-4 you need really good LBs.
Regarding the OL investment though. I have to disagree, The Giants have not properly invested in the OL. FA does not replace investing draft capital. In today's NFL, decent OL just don't hit FA. OL that do either are at the end of their career, have red flags or just stink. If a decent OL does hit FA, they simply cost too much.
Since 2013 (7 drafts) the Giants have spent 2 picks each in rounds 1, 2, 6, and 7. It total that represents about 14% of their total draft capital. Since 2016 (4 drafts), the Giants have spent a 2nd and a 7th or 4% of their draft capital over that time, and since Gettleman arrived they have spent the same picks representing 8% of their capital.
Since OL represents 23% of the players on the field (5 out of 22) it would make sense that you at least spend a proportionate amount of draft capital on the OL, about 23% (maybe a bit more to make up for the lack of FA).
14% over 7 years is at best 60% of what should have been spent.
4% over 4 years is at best 17%
and 8% over 2 is at best 35%.
This level of investment is way too low. You can try to supplement with UDFAs, but that is not a reliable source of solid players. Finding a starting OL in UDFA is akin to a lottery win.
The Giants have NOT invested enough draft capital in the OL.
In 7 drafts, the Giants have not chosen even 1 OL in rounds 3 - 5.
What compounds this is that by the end of 2015, the team knew that their investments were not working. Pugh failed at T and moved to G, and he and Richburg could not stay healthy. And there were major questions about Flowers. At that point it would make sense to up the investment to get replacements. Instead the Giants drastically reduced their investment. When DG arrive, the "Hog-Mollie" king, he knew he needed 5 new starters, plus backups (the cupboard was completely empty). And his investment has still been way below average.
There was so little talent on this team 2 years ago it's hard to fathom. DG had to find 20 new starters and 10 decent backups including a franchise QB. And there need to be a handful of pro bowlers in there as well. Some of that is done, most of it isn't.
Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.
We had some talent, but traded just about all the talent we had for a hot dog and bag of peanuts.
Not really true. We got good value for OBJ and the other "talent" wasn't that good (Apple) or wasn't going to be good by the time the team was (Snacks).
Forget the investment piece, I'm at the point where I don't even trust DG's judgment on personnel, despite what the self-proclaimed great builder of teams would have us believe.
He certainly talks the talk, but has shown little in walking the walk.
What about the failure of the scouting department to uncover Beal's injury (I don't believe he was injured on the 1st day of training camp) or McIntosh's condition?
There was so little talent on this team 2 years ago it's hard to fathom. DG had to find 20 new starters and 10 decent backups including a franchise QB. And there need to be a handful of pro bowlers in there as well. Some of that is done, most of it isn't.
Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.
How are his efforts to add to the Offensive Line faring so far? He should be graded on that, rather than emphasizing how bad the situation was that he took over. A lot has already been changed. This is his roster now.
Forget the investment piece, I'm at the point where I don't even trust DG's judgment on personnel, despite what the self-proclaimed great builder of teams would have us believe.
He certainly talks the talk, but has shown little in walking the walk.
Horrible hire at this point...
Well, I won't argue about that...
I am just countering that narrative around here that the Giants have invested "enough" in the OL but they failed.
Yes, what they have invested has failed, but it also wasn't enough. Both statements are true.
But, yeah, I am not a fan of DG's judgement either.
But then again almost every new GM inherits a mess!
But, DG doesn't get a pass anymore on the current team. THere are only 9 players left from before he got here. Only 4 of those get meaningful snaps. The vast majority of playing time is going to guys that DG brought in.
Whats more is everybody talks about the great job he is doing clearing out contract, and its not his fault that there is o much dead cap this year. That is BS. The contracts from Reese that Gettlman has dumped have cost the Giants 13M in dead space. The contract that Gettleman himself has given out and terminated have cost the Giants more than 24M in dead cap. DG is far more responsible for the dead cap issues we have now that was Reese!
Folks, you have to stop giving him a pass and blaming it all on Reese. More of this is on DG than you realize.
The team Gettleman inherited had gone 11-5 and to the playoffs Â
two years prior, with the year prior being an injury riddled campaign that ended in a mutiny.
He decided to dismantle and rebuild - and even if you think he got fair value for what he traded away, he blew it on players who haven't been able to contribute much, as the record shows.
His FA record is abysmal. After convincing people that he knows his "Hog Mollies", he's managed to acquire one good (in trade) OL, and one inconsistent one via draft. The rest are just as bad as anything Reese ever trotted out, including matching the awful Flowers draft with a player equally terrible being paid top OLT money at the time.
He's had one bad FA signing after the next, from guys that needed to be cut shortly after they were signed (Omameh) to guys that never contributed a damn thing (Stewart).
He pissed away what will likely be a high 3rd and 4th for the rights to overpay Leonard Williams, a 4th for the rights to overpay an awful Alec Ogletree, and a 4th for a player who didn't make it two seasons in Lauletta.
Even Saquon Barkley, who everyone had fitted for a gold jacket before he was drafted, has looked pretty bad this year, both before and after his injury.
It's time for these guys to go. It's time for Mara to sack up, break out of his comfort zone, hire an outsider, and CHANGE the way they've done things forever. Get the lifers who reside at Giants HQ, thank them for their time, and let them go off into retirement or find jobs elsewhere. Get someone other than Ernie Accorsi to identify some up and comer to take the reigns, to revamp scouting, to hire a coach, and make them fully accountable - let them make the decisions, let them take the hit. Better yet - don't even bother with a GM anymore, get one guy to be the CEO (Mara's words), let him run the whole show and if it doesn't work out, show him the door.
It's time for change. I agree with Eric that it won't happen, but that'll just prolong the misery.
There was so little talent on this team 2 years ago it's hard to fathom. DG had to find 20 new starters and 10 decent backups including a franchise QB. And there need to be a handful of pro bowlers in there as well. Some of that is done, most of it isn't.
Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.
How are his efforts to add to the Offensive Line faring so far? He should be graded on that, rather than emphasizing how bad the situation was that he took over. A lot has already been changed. This is his roster now.
I don't think 2 drafts and a couple of somewhat underfunded FA classes come close to being able to generate the 20 new starters plus that it will take to rebuild the team. Do you really think we should be competitive now. What did you think our record would be this year.
Same conclusion independently. Late last night I posted the thread “Defense First” saying as you did: get back to our roots, bring in a D minded HC, and put the priority on that (and the OL on the other side). D is the heart and soul of Big Blue, and seeing this feckless, soft, impotent bunch get behind and give up any lead we get immediately while causing no turnovers is pathetic. Watching that SF v Seattle game and seeing 2 actual Ds fly around made me heartsick. It’s wrong for a team with D players like Huff, LT, Carson, Banks, Strahan, Marshall, Tuck, and even Osi to trot out this garbage.
Disagree on the cap space point, which has been parroted by a few posters.
According to Spotrac the Giants have 63 million in space for 2020. They gain an extra 33 million by cutting Jenkins, Ogletree, Ellison, Martin, and Bethea. They only have one big re-sign in LW.
When you look at the totality of the circumstances the Giants are in a very healthy cap situation and can be top 3 in the league if they want to win some sort of magical cap space award.
I expect them to make some big splash signings. The key will be to sign guys that are young and talented at impact positions of need. There will be some guys that fit the bill.
This team can be good in 2020 — it won’t take a miracle. The good teams around the league aren’t perfect. You can run down every potential playoff team and find weaknesses.
Gettleman just has to nail the off-season, starting with the coaching staff. Sign a few impact players in the trenches in FA. Have a good draft.
RE: RE: RE: The problem is that DG inherited a mess Â
I don't think 2 drafts and a couple of somewhat underfunded FA classes come close to being able to generate the 20 new starters plus that it will take to rebuild the team. Do you really think we should be competitive now. What did you think our record would be this year.
Again - this team went from 11-5, to 3-13 in a season filled with injury, to complete demolition and now absolutely lost. Gettleman had money to play with, and he brought in the likes of Solder (as bad as Flowers, just a lot more expensive), Omameh (didn't make it through half the season), Ogletree, Jonathan Stewart.
He wasn't resource constrained - he just monetized whatever talent the team did have and turned it into absolute shit. Give him more time if you want, but that makes you more of a masochist than a fan.
About their complete inability to be accurately introspective for years. His point -- when they win, they don't know why they won, and when they lose, they don't know why they lost -- is dead on and absolutely must change.
When we win, it is usually because the opponent... Â
Issue is just who exactly is going to undertake to do any of the things Eric usefully suggests? Doing them assumes a sensible Management command structure with talent at the top having hire/fire authority. But this does not seem to be there. Nor does there seem to be any Gettleman or Chris Mara replacement/succession plan that would change that. Until this is corrected, and lower level people who can't do the job properly are fired, no meaningful improvement looks possible. No matter how high a draft choice they get or how many picks, mistakes of the same kind that got the team where it is now (terrible talent identification and bad coaching are high on that list), adding more poor players, look certain to be repeated. Discouraging. Not a pretty picture.
Mike Lombardi made a great point in today’s GM Shuffle podcast - he said, “The Giants don’t need a coach, they need an infrastructure.”
That is so true. Since the end of the 2013 season, every move the Giants have made has been to “patch” things together.
2014: Firing Gilbride; Hiring McAdoo
2015: Firing Fewell; Hiring Spagnuolo
2016: Firing Coughlin; Hiring McAdoo
2018: Replace Reese/McAdoo with Gettleman/Shurmur
-Keep Eli as starter up until week 2 of 2019
Record from 2004 through 2012: 91-64 (including playoffs with 2 SB titles)
-Coughlin was hired in 2004 to build a program & he did it with Eli. This was a very successful run in Giant history.
Record from 2013 to present: 40-67
-All moves during this time have been patchwork & short sighted to try and fix what is broken. There is no program in place, no long-term vision.
2019 is far different than 2004 in terms of the landscape of the league. It’s time to look outside of the building & hire someone to build a culture and program. It’s time.
Mike Lombardi made a great point in today’s GM Shuffle podcast - he said, “The Giants don’t need a coach, they need an infrastructure.”
That is so true. Since the end of the 2013 season, every move the Giants have made has been to “patch” things together.
2014: Firing Gilbride; Hiring McAdoo
2015: Firing Fewell; Hiring Spagnuolo
2016: Firing Coughlin; Hiring McAdoo
2018: Replace Reese/McAdoo with Gettleman/Shurmur
-Keep Eli as starter up until week 2 of 2019
Record from 2004 through 2012: 91-64 (including playoffs with 2 SB titles)
-Coughlin was hired in 2004 to build a program & he did it with Eli. This was a very successful run in Giant history.
Record from 2013 to present: 40-67
-All moves during this time have been patchwork & short sighted to try and fix what is broken. There is no program in place, no long-term vision.
2019 is far different than 2004 in terms of the landscape of the league. It’s time to look outside of the building & hire someone to build a culture and program. It’s time.
I think Mara should hire two or three consultants to develop a report on how to structure the organization, and who to hire to run it. He'd do well to hire Lombardi as one of those consultants.
But the biggest concern going forward should be the OL. Barkley and Jones need to be nurtured and there’s no better way than to build a good OL around them.
Also, every time the giants offense faces a pivotal moment, the play gets blown the hell up. More often than not people second guess the playcall and why not? The play blew up before it had any chance of success. Why did it play up? Was it because the other team knew what was coming? Maybe. But that’s a cop out excuse and hides the real issues. In 1990 everyone knew what the giants would run and it didn’t matter. Same with 2007 at times. Didn’t matter. The OL opened holes. We won.
Fix the OL. Priority one.
RE: RE: RE: The problem is that DG inherited a mess Â
There was so little talent on this team 2 years ago it's hard to fathom. DG had to find 20 new starters and 10 decent backups including a franchise QB. And there need to be a handful of pro bowlers in there as well. Some of that is done, most of it isn't.
Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.
How are his efforts to add to the Offensive Line faring so far? He should be graded on that, rather than emphasizing how bad the situation was that he took over. A lot has already been changed. This is his roster now.
I don't think 2 drafts and a couple of somewhat underfunded FA classes come close to being able to generate the 20 new starters plus that it will take to rebuild the team. Do you really think we should be competitive now. What did you think our record would be this year.
There exists a middle ground between "competitive" and "2 wins in half a season".
2 drafts and 2 free agencies with lots of money spent, you shouldn't expect some kind of return?
RE: RE: RE: RE: The problem is that DG inherited a mess Â
There exists a middle ground between "competitive" and "2 wins in half a season".
2 drafts and 2 free agencies with lots of money spent, you shouldn't expect some kind of return?
+1(0000000000).
I think some fans look at the team and what DG has built in a vacuum. FOr example, DG has spent near $48m on FA's currently on the team and hit to the cap. None of them are part of a rebuild. ANd three of the 4 have been bad. That money could have gotten GMEN some core players or there would be more cap to get core players.
Instead they look at the current team and say "Well look at them this moment and you can see they are far away."
OFC they are far away. If you didn't have much talent to start with and your FA signings have been awful. OFC you're going to be "years away." Instead if you had a GM who hit on FA's - things wouldn't look so bleak.
RE: RE: RE: The problem is that DG inherited a mess Â
There was so little talent on this team 2 years ago it's hard to fathom. DG had to find 20 new starters and 10 decent backups including a franchise QB. And there need to be a handful of pro bowlers in there as well. Some of that is done, most of it isn't.
Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.
How are his efforts to add to the Offensive Line faring so far? He should be graded on that, rather than emphasizing how bad the situation was that he took over. A lot has already been changed. This is his roster now.
I don't think 2 drafts and a couple of somewhat underfunded FA classes come close to being able to generate the 20 new starters plus that it will take to rebuild the team. Do you really think we should be competitive now. What did you think our record would be this year.
How underfunded would his FA classes be without his own dead money contributions?
Although, with the mediocrity of the players he has signed over the past two years, maybe we should be grateful that he ultimately gave himself less to spend this past offseason.
RE: No one has screamed fix the defense more than me Â
But the biggest concern going forward should be the OL. Barkley and Jones need to be nurtured and there’s no better way than to build a good OL around them.
Also, every time the giants offense faces a pivotal moment, the play gets blown the hell up. More often than not people second guess the playcall and why not? The play blew up before it had any chance of success. Why did it play up? Was it because the other team knew what was coming? Maybe. But that’s a cop out excuse and hides the real issues. In 1990 everyone knew what the giants would run and it didn’t matter. Same with 2007 at times. Didn’t matter. The OL opened holes. We won.
Fix the OL. Priority one.
Amen to this. If you fix the O Line you can control the game. The key to the off season will be obtaining an OT and C. Zeitler, Hernandez are part of the solution and I am Hopeful Nick Gates continues to get playing time so it can be determined if he can be an NFL starting OT. The Center position is in need of a huge upgrade. Not sure who to target or where to get him from but you need to have a smart, athletic center to compete. A young Tackle is another priority. To add, a good 2 way TE is another position that needs to be added. I would prefer draft pick but if there is a guy that can be had in FA then so be it.
Once you can run the ball in this league it effects the rest of the team. Gettlemen knows this and I have to believe that he will continue to address this vital need.
After that, we need 3 starters on defense:
1. Pass rusher. If that is Chase Young then great. if not then I would go after Ngokue fron Jax.
2. Free Safety. Justin Simmons from Denver would be my target. If not him then Randall from Cleveland. This is a priority.
3. ILB. I would love to see a young guy in the draft like Isaiah Simmons from Clemson but it will take a 1st round pick to get him and I think we will be picking high. Shaq Thompson from Carolina would be a good fit. He can blitz, cover and tackle.
O Line first. These 3 positions next.
RE: When we win, it is usually because the opponent... Â
If you believe in Jones and Barkley. These two will be a lot better next year especially if you give them TWO OLINEMEN.
In order to win they also have to be spending big on younger players in FA. No one over 28.
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If you think Gmen won't be any good in 2020 or even 2021- then you have to trade Barkley. Don't you? Trading Barkley I guess would all depend on how heavy you want to go in FA unless you feel the player you get - someone like Young would transform the defense in a year. But you don't have a big window with Barkley, do you?
Keep in mind my other points... He will be 69. If you are picking a new head coach, do you want the next GM encumbered with his guy? I wouldn't.
Defense is a must in the 1st round. Whether its an edge rusher an ILB, a safety or even another corner, they have to spend capital there and This is where I am in lock step with you. You have a QB and a RB. Your offense has shown the ability to put points on the board even against highly ranked defenses. Focus STRONGLY on improving the defense. FA's Drafts coaches. This maybe an offense first league, but you'll just be an also ran if your defense can't stop the other team at crucial times.
Peppers
Golden
Lawrence
Baker
Ximines
Love
Connelly
Ballentine
and more recently with the acquisition of Williams. Outside of a couple OL picks, I can easily see next years draft being heavy on D as well, especially if Slayton continues to develop as a legit #2/3 WR.
And absolutely, please dear God, build an offensive line. Clearly obvious that even with mediocre WRs(although Slayton has some skilz and Tate is a bulldog), Jones can get the ball to the open guy.
One decent ER, two fast ILBs, and a FS that can cover would really clean up the defense.
Two OTs, a C and the offense will be fine.
Quote:
I think DG is fine as a GM .... his biggest mistake was hiring Shurmur, letting PS hire Bettcher then let Bettcher have too much influence on getting ex Cardinals (except Golden) for his dopey defense... but I do agree with your other 3 recommendations.
Keep in mind my other points... He will be 69. If you are picking a new head coach, do you want the next GM encumbered with his guy? I wouldn't.
Eric, With each passing year, 69 y seems younger and younger ... Also, BB, Pete Carroll, Nick Sagan and Bruce Arians are all about the same age and still coaching, which is a heckuva lot more stressful than being GM. Hell, our next president (anyone of the top 5 maybes) will be at least 75 by midterm.
Eric from BBI
that's not contrarian. the popular thinking is DG hasn't been the problem throwing the failure on the coaching staff. DG has been a disaster is the contrarian view.
If Abrams isn't the answer, are there any good GM candidates out there to consider? How about coaches?
One thing you didn't mention is the guy on either side of the ball that is an instigator to get the rest of the unit fired up. Antrel Rolle, Harry Carson, David Diehl....they all lit fires under their teammates either on the field or in the lockerroom. Who on this current squad does that? I don't really see anyone getting in Solder's face when DE's continually beat him like a drum nor do I see anyone jumping into Baker's space to give him a pep talk, guidance or even a lesson in-game.
I remember distinctly during the half-time of a Giants-Detroit game in the 80's that we were supposed to win easily where trailing 13-0 at half, Carson went nuts in the lockerroom and called out the guys pride.
I remember one particular game where Kenny Hill was using every play to point something out to the younger secondary members. Remember Sam Madison? Antrel Rolle? These guys wouldn't hesitate to correct mistakes or kick some butt in the huddle to make the team better.
Where are those guys now? and more importantly...where are those guys in the draft or in free agency?
What else has he done - scout pro personnel? college?
if he hasn't and is more of a manager/leader then he needs a really deep bench of good scouts.
Eric - why the trust in Abrams?
I'd say Ogletree is the other guy expected to be the defensive leader, but he's been injured and/or awful.
Offensively - no idea, but with 3 vets (Solder, Zeitler, and Remmers) the OL really shouldn't need someone in their face. For skill players, Tate would probably be the vet leader, but he missed the first 4 games and has barely played with Shepard and Engram.
The sobering part is I don't think the Mara or Tisch family are going to go out of there comfort zone. Personally, I have been so beat up by this team, I am drifting away. A fresh, modern GM and coach hire would reinvigorate my passion into this team.
There is very little on-field leadership...which leads me to believe that there is very little lockerroom leadership.
Maybe that is who we need to identify and sign this off-season....those guys!
2) The coaching staff has to go as they inspire nobody and have a track record that says bottom feeder. Time to clean house.
3) Oline is a HUGE need. Do not blame Jones for some of the sacks, that happens. When you can't play tough up front you do too many cute things, too many "soft" plays that doesn't wear the other teams defense out and just sends a message to your own team that we are relying on tricking the other team as we know we cannot out physical them. That has to change.
4) This team can no longer look outside and skill position to build around, they must build up the middle (oline overall) but Center specifically, DT (we have) LB (we fucking have nothing there) and Safety (we have one but need a play maker there)....
5)I would add we need to get two major things not mentioned specifically anywhere else- A) 2 way TE who can block above average and who has size and hands B) OLB who can change the game!
forgot "do"
I'm not a fire the coach guy. But, I've just not seen enough from Shurmur to keep him after the year is over...so far. Bad game day decisions. No creativity in the offensive play calling. In his defense, Jones has progressed, except for the fumbles. He's coaching for his job now, but it is likely, barring a dramatic turnaround, that he is gone along with his coaching staff.
As far as DG goes, I'm not sure what to do. I think he has drafted well. I think he knows talent. He has guts. I'm torn on that one. I think if they truly want to clean house, the front office/scouting needs to be part of it though. So, if you fire Shurmur, you have to fire DG too.
Sad times in East Rutherford.
I think Dave deserves another year and I do believe he had restrictions on him regarding Eli. I fully believe Eli was finishing his contract.
Does Abrams have any football background? If he is hired I would think Chris Mara gets more power? Not good
I agree with the defensive philosophy of getting strong on D. The NFC East has always been about Defense imo. We a couple moves this off season I think they can get there as soon as next year.
You always here about the QB elevating the team. I think sometimes it is misguided but I do really believe the right HC can get this going quickly as long as they hit big on the two first draft picks and add three quality starters in FA.
I'm not a fire the coach guy. But, I've just not seen enough from Shurmur to keep him after the year is over...so far. Bad game day decisions. No creativity in the offensive play calling. In his defense, Jones has progressed, except for the fumbles. He's coaching for his job now, but it is likely, barring a dramatic turnaround, that he is gone along with his coaching staff.
As far as DG goes, I'm not sure what to do. I think he has drafted well. I think he knows talent. He has guts. I'm torn on that one. I think if they truly want to clean house, the front office/scouting needs to be part of it though. So, if you fire Shurmur, you have to fire DG too.
Sad times in East Rutherford.
Firing coaches often isn't the answer. But does anyone honestly see this coaching staff being in charge of an 11-5 team at some point?
If they are back in 2020, they'll be gone in 2021.
OL - yeah they need someone else shopping for the groceries.
-fix the OL by properly scouting OL: Once again, you did say analyze the past mistakes/who picked them and stop listening to them. But, suggesting they look far and wide would indicate they only looked far and said 'yeah that's good enough'.
-GO DEFENSE...but make OL a priority. I'd say going D has been the priority under DG. This past draft was D heavy. There's limited resources. making OL a priority means the D has to slip a little in allocation.
One of your points was very spot on: they need to analyze past mistakes and stop listening to those that advocated for those actions. that includes the Maras. figure out what the hell Chris does and analyze his part of the equation. IF John's been putting his fingers in the pie, analyze his ass, too.
OK, two were spot on: pick a football minded GM and let him pick his coaches. If, as alleged by many, the Maras do the coach picking, they need to step away. Let the GM run the football side of the equation.
Abrams background. makes Mark Koncz a key individual in this leadership change, assuming he is retained.
Mark Koncz Giants.com - ( New Window )
-fix the OL by properly scouting OL: Once again, you did say analyze the past mistakes/who picked them and stop listening to them. But, suggesting they look far and wide would indicate they only looked far and said 'yeah that's good enough'.
-GO DEFENSE...but make OL a priority. I'd say going D has been the priority under DG. This past draft was D heavy. There's limited resources. making OL a priority means the D has to slip a little in allocation.
One of your points was very spot on: they need to analyze past mistakes and stop listening to those that advocated for those actions. that includes the Maras. figure out what the hell Chris does and analyze his part of the equation. IF John's been putting his fingers in the pie, analyze his ass, too.
OK, two were spot on: pick a football minded GM and let him pick his coaches. If, as alleged by many, the Maras do the coach picking, they need to step away. Let the GM run the football side of the equation.
Totally agree with the GM hiring the coach. Mara has alluded over the years about this "committee" thing and he is meddling. I wonder how much he is sharing his brother or other family members wishes.
-fix the OL by properly scouting OL: Once again, you did say analyze the past mistakes/who picked them and stop listening to them. But, suggesting they look far and wide would indicate they only looked far and said 'yeah that's good enough'.
-GO DEFENSE...but make OL a priority. I'd say going D has been the priority under DG. This past draft was D heavy. There's limited resources. making OL a priority means the D has to slip a little in allocation.
One of your points was very spot on: they need to analyze past mistakes and stop listening to those that advocated for those actions. that includes the Maras. figure out what the hell Chris does and analyze his part of the equation. IF John's been putting his fingers in the pie, analyze his ass, too.
OK, two were spot on: pick a football minded GM and let him pick his coaches. If, as alleged by many, the Maras do the coach picking, they need to step away. Let the GM run the football side of the equation.
Reese/Ross stuck with Flowers and Hart far longer than they should have with NO insurance policy if they failed.
Gettleman seems to have gone into this season sure that Solder's 2018 season was a fluke.
As I mentioned in the article, they have spent a lot of resources on the OL. But they have also made some risky assumptions that came back to bite them in the ass.
I can't even picture them bringing in a young talented outsider.
That said, I believe the Giants CAN rebuild the roster under Gettleman. I see what he's TRYING to do, but it WILL take more time. Not what anyone wants to hear, but you can't fix this many problems in 2 offseasons. If you want the stud pass rushers and OTs, you have to pass on guys like Barkley and Jones, or get luckier later. That's not the way the draft played out. You don't shop hungry.
I think many of the guys DG drafted may turn out fine -- Jones looks like the real deal. That's THE most important thing. Slayton looks like a steal, Hernandez, Lawrence. Book's out on some of the others.
But yeah, they need to draft or find stud pass rushers, stud OTs. After that, they need to actually get some NFL-starting-caliber LBs. Previous management never felt LBs mattered in a 4-3, but you're in a 3-4 now. LBs now matter!
On acquiring FAs, I think EVERYONE KNEW Solder was an expensive band-aid, but one they HAD to have. Sometimes you ARE forced to overpay for average talent. JPP's last contract comes to mind. Too much to pay for a guy who misses 10 games a season.
We all OK with Golden Tate now that he's served his 4 games? I am.
I'm ok with Zeitler when he's healthy.
Peppers . . . I'm willing to wait and see what happens with a different DC. He's still only 24.
Markus Golden looks pretty good, but he can't do it alone.
Leonard Williams may well end up being a very nice puzzle piece (I assume they will resign him) but having all these good, young DTs is no substitute for NOT having pass rushers. And LBs.
I don't see them breaking the bank for any ONE FA (like Clowney) this offseason. There are too many holes to have all your eggs in one basket. THAT is why OBJ is gone. Use one asset to plug 3 holes.
We don't know what the young CB will turn into yet, but they haven't had an IMPACT FS that I can recall in my lifetime. Don't say Kenny Phillips -- he was here or good long enough to count.
AS FAR AS THE COACHES GO, I'm with you! I'd be fine with a Defensive coach, but he has to be a hard-ass who actually makes his players afraid to screw up. I keep saying this:
Can anyone here picture Pat Shurmer tearing his players a new asshole? The way Parcells or Coughlin would have?
This team makes the same mistakes week in and week out. Some of it is lack of talent (and rookie inexperience), but some of it is not. A lot of it is mental mistakes.
A disciplinarian coach makes his player afraid to make those mistakes. A disciplinarian coach keeps his players on their toes and enforces consequences for screw-ups.
Anyone think these players are afraid of Shurmer?
Think any of these players hate him (the way they hated Parcells and Coughlin)?
Anyone think these guys are running gassers in practice for bad game play?
They need an ass-kicker coach who keeps them on their toes all the time.
As for Betcher, I'm not sure anyone would do MUCH better with a defense this bad, but there are too many red flags. Why keep playing Baker 5 yards off his man? Why leave Jenkins on Mike Evans SO long? Why are the same mistakes being made week after week?
He ain't the guy.
Also with you on putting the pro and draft scouts under the microscope, but I think they do that anyway. Not sure if WE would hear of any changes there, regardless.
In FA...
Don't overspend in FA, the Giants need to understand this is a rebuilding process. If they can absorb contracts from other teams for Day 2 picks, that should be the priority. I'd tried to go after FAs at positions the league values less. Namely, ILB, S, and C. The only exceptions I'd make are for Bradberry or Jones at CB.
In the draft...
If there's good value for a LT in round 1, that'd be ideal. Jerry Jeudy is a really good WR, but I hope we don't go in this direction if an OT (or CB) are on the board. In fact, I think Okudah is the best CB to come out of Ohio St.
We also need to start learning to trade down. All the best drafting teams are viewed as the best drafting teams because they have a lot of draft picks. We need to hit a home run on every pick because we have so few picks.
On coaching...
Eric has nailed this, we need to give coaches a shorter leash and admit our mistakes quicker. I liked the Shurmur and Bettcher hirings. But, they haven't worked out. We need to move on.
I really do not know what the right answer....
I know the Giants need more talent.
It seems they need better leadership (HC).
It seems they need better player development (OC,DC and position coaches).
Their field leadership make a ton of wrong choices.
How long are you going to give the new regime? You think they can fix all this in a year? A year and a half? Two?
Because I think anything less than three years is absurd, yet that's exactly what you're expecting from this current regime - and this current regime will have left the team in MUCH better shape than did the regime before it.
Dinosaur Dave has to go as we don't want him with $100m to spend and make the epidemic mistakes he has shown in FA already and what Reese did and got us in a bind quickly with bad contracts
The #1 decision is around the Org. It all rolls downhill and the GM decision of staying or going is key IMHO. They choose and have to work with the coach. Firing shurmur and keeping DG is not the route to go.
If your changing things, do it wholesale Mara's/Tisch and dont be a bunch of pussies. Whats the difference of 2-14 or 5-11 or ????
Get new blood (I like Matt Rhule as coach, Dan Quinn as DC) in this house. Rhule's buyout at Baylor is too much $$$
Once you have a new approach/coach/GM, you can then figure out the rest. 100M to maybe spend in FA (think quality players and don't overspend...ie Williams) or save....some......and getting the OL and D fixed
It's NOT too much to ask for some sign that things are turning. Very little evidence that things are a net positive so far. That isn't acceptable.
I agree 100% that the Giants believed that the NFL was moving toward a more "basketball on grass" mentality and attempted to build a roster and hire a HC to fit that mold. I really think that the Giants under Reece and MacAdoo wanted to build an offensive juggernaut around Eli and win shootouts 35-31 like the Chiefs and Saints (during Brees' prime). It failed miserably.
DG seems to fit the old school mold of winning football games you're looking for. Build the OL and DL - run the football - punch them in the mouth. Which is why the PS pick as a HC was so odd.
I see too many gm’s around the league botch draft picks alllllll the time. I am one that does not believe the grass is greener at all. We were so close!!!! Todd Gurley, Laremy Tunsil, and Ryan Ramczyck!!!!! We let those three players go to three teams that are now fckin Super Bowl contenders!!!
Gettleman needs to keep drafting heat, and get a competent coach in here ASAP before we lose the young men on this team. I want the guy who found Darius slayton and Ryan Connelly in the fifth. If we fire DG now, he’ll be rehired in days, probably not as a GM, but I’m not tryna give away Gettleman like we gave away Coughlin.
He did, last season, when he led the NFL in Yards from scrimmage with the same crappy offensive line.
Also remember that due to the total incompetence of the prior GM/draft boss and the last coach, this reconstruction was pretty much akin to starting with an expansion team.
That said, desperate times call for desperate measures. has John Mara got the balls to take them? Unfortunately I don't think so.
Look at the last game, Saquon never had a chance. He was hit repeatedly in the backfield.
I hated the Gettleman hire when it was made and while some of his draft choices have been solid and a definite improvement, this guy has no right to think he is the smartest guy in the room. When we talk about free agency, think Jonathan Stewart.
Building the offensive line - look NE with Marshall Newhouse playing left tackle. There is something to a system and blocking schemes.
On the coach, Shurmer is terrible, the George Costanza analogy was classic. Gettleman should not be allowed to hire the next coach.
To eric's point, going back to our roots, the guy I'd like to see us targeting as a coach is the Defensive Coordinator from the 49ers. He seems like a guy, whose players play with great effort and emotion and always seem to be in the right place.
"For those who say the Giants will have a ton of cap space so they can afford to overspend, I say no."
Gentleman's FA acquisitions have been very poor, and he might well try and overspend to try and fix the team immediately. Large FA acquisitions have a poor track record of success.
But this is where I'd spend all available resources.
My problem with the current coaching staff is not just Shurmur, but Betcher. They gave Betcher a bunch of new toys to work with (draft picks and free agents) and the defense is getting worse.
As I said, the arrow doesn't appear to be pointing up. This is not based on the last game, but the last six games.
Look at the last game, Saquon never had a chance. He was hit repeatedly in the backfield.
True, but he's looked like a shell of himself since the injury regardless of line play.
I agree 100% that the Giants believed that the NFL was moving toward a more "basketball on grass" mentality and attempted to build a roster and hire a HC to fit that mold. I really think that the Giants under Reece and MacAdoo wanted to build an offensive juggernaut around Eli and win shootouts 35-31 like the Chiefs and Saints (during Brees' prime). It failed miserably.
DG seems to fit the old school mold of winning football games you're looking for. Build the OL and DL - run the football - punch them in the mouth. Which is why the PS pick as a HC was so odd.
Shurmur ran the ball almost 50% of the time in Minnesota. Maybe that was Zimmer influenced. He also had way more boots, rolls with the QB. The current offense is nothing like what he ran in Minnesota.
I think Dave thought he was getting that offense. Maybe Pat has determined the Giants can't run the ball but then why these runs up the middle?
And I hear ya on the PS hire and the amount of running of the football they did in Minny. BUT if you look at his time as the Eagles offensive coordinator - he was much more pass heavy.
You guys are going to hear me harp on these things until I'm blue in the face: defense... offensive line.
Fix those two.
Which is odd for Gettleman b/c he strikes me as an old school football guy would be looking for a HC that had more of that type of mind set about how the game should be played.
Ron Rivera fits the mold more to me - which I believe - DG inherited and kept.
Right now, we have neither.
That's why we are 2-8.
Look at the last game, Saquon never had a chance. He was hit repeatedly in the backfield.
This is really the most confusing part of the NYG this season.
I would have bet the OL to be significantly better. On paper, it should be. The majority of this board thought the same too.
My only answer: coaching and scheme.
That is the biggest issue with NYG right now.
On offense, we need two tackles, a center, at least one WR, and possibly a TE. A second WR will be necessary if Shepard can't return next season.
All of this is after two draft and FA classes, and the blockbuster OBJ trade.
On offense, we need two tackles, a center, at least one WR, and possibly a TE. A second WR will be necessary if Shepard can't return next season.
All of this is after two draft and FA classes, and the blockbuster OBJ trade.
Don't assume that Leonard Williams will want to re-sign here. It's a shit show.
On offense, we need two tackles, a center, at least one WR, and possibly a TE. A second WR will be necessary if Shepard can't return next season.
All of this is after two draft and FA classes, and the blockbuster OBJ trade.
Acid - I think a second draft WR is not necessary. You still have Tate, Slayton, and a draft pick. That's w/o Sheppard.
You've got Engram - for better or worse - at TE.
Not that you don't go there, but those are areas that are at least satisfied for 2020.
Coaching is critical in the NFL. Our players, as individuals, are not as bad as the results they are getting. As a team, you are what your record says you are.
My thoughts
Gettleman is fine as GM.
Improve pro-personel scouting department to do better in FA evaluation.
Hire and pay for top-notch assistant coaches. Especially at OL and DL. Line coaches are very often the personalities that drive a team's energy.
Improve defensive personnel at LB and S. These positions are tone setters. Think Ray Lewis, LT, Harry Carson, Ronnie Lott, Ed Reed, etc...
Improve OL on offense. Again, they set the tone.
We are not many years away, but I keep seeing the same mistakes. Slow starts (understatement of the year), a lack of discipline. There needs to be more attention to detail. The schemes don't matter if you don't play with passion.
Put simply, the best teams have a swarming defense and a physical offense. We have neither.
I actually think a new head coach with a different play calling/system philosophy will make our current offensive line look a lot better. Combined with a new line coach and strength program.
You guys are going to hear me harp on these things until I'm blue in the face: defense... offensive line.
Fix those two.
Eric, I agree, the OL needs to be fixed. But Barkley is not the same guy post injury as I'm sure you can see.
What we do know is his pass protection has been inexcusable. Parcells would have benched him.
Is your head coach someone you honestly see winning a Super Bowl? If not, you move on.
Shurmur ran the ball almost 50% of the time in Minnesota. Maybe that was Zimmer influenced. He also had way more boots, rolls with the QB. The current offense is nothing like what he ran in Minnesota.
Neither is the talent of a single offensive lineman, WR, or versatile TE - but other than that comparing Shurmur's offense in MIN and his here is completely spot on.
There's no doubt that we need one that's a helluva lot better than the one we have.
Ditto for the OL.
At this point, I'd settle for marginally better for either.
While I agree that is likely the idiotic plan, that is just more of the same. A guy essentially over-exposed and brain washed to tenets of the "Giants Way".
That is the LAST thing we need if we jettison DG. We need a young, new voice, new ideas with ZERO ties to Jints Central.
Otherwise, this insanity ain't changin'...
And I love how the recommendations are broken down.
This article reminds me yesteryear sports stories that CBS and NYDN would have on occasion. Not just angry posts or stupid tweets.
I would hope the organization has the sense to see their problems. But these days I don't know.
Yes and no. Figureheads have changed and some small changes to scouting staff. But for the most part, the organizational structure is the same with many of the same players doing the same things they've always done.
While I agree that is likely the idiotic plan, that is just more of the same. A guy essentially over-exposed and brain washed to tenets of the "Giants Way".
That is the LAST thing we need if we jettison DG. We need a young, new voice, new ideas with ZERO ties to Jints Central.
Otherwise, this insanity ain't changin'...
bw, we knew Gettleman was going to be the GM. Abrams is going to be the next guy. It is what it is.
There's no doubt that we need one that's a helluva lot better than the one we have.
Ditto for the OL.
At this point, I'd settle for marginally better for either.
If I used the word "great", I didn't mean to (I don't think I did). Asking for "greatness" gets into the fanciful thinking area. I am simply asking for a good, solid defense that beats up the other team.
How long are you going to give the new regime? You think they can fix all this in a year? A year and a half? Two?
Because I think anything less than three years is absurd, yet that's exactly what you're expecting from this current regime - and this current regime will have left the team in MUCH better shape than did the regime before it.
What you need to see is progress. There is not a date by which the club is "fixed." The alternative is you guarantee them three years and essentially there is no accountability for the first few.
I would disagree that DG/PS are leaving this team better than they found it. The inherited a mess and they still have a mess.
What we do know is his pass protection has been inexcusable. Parcells would have benched him.
Agreed. I think Parcells would have benched him. He's being run over, and not just by DL, but also by safeties.
That's why they have to play him - any young player that can show something is one less piece they have to address in the draft or FA during the off season. They don't have to start - they just have to show that they are roster worthy. Create competition at every position during camp - get some real game tape on these guys so they can improve - start freakin building a team for next year now so we aren't behind the 8 ball all the time.
Play Gates - if he shows he can hang at RT - GREAT if not, we know it needs addressing.
Play Gallman - SB is hurting - is Gallman the answer as #2 back if so GREAT - if not - let's address it
Play Ballentine, play Beal, and anyone else that might be part of the future and let's see what they can do.
Activate some of these guys off the practice squad. They're going to need a 4th and 5th WR next year - is that guy on the roster now? Maybe - but we'll never freakin' know if they don't play. They're going to need guys that can play ST.
Don't give another freakin minute to JAGS like Bethea, Michael Thomas, Cody Latimer, Mike Remmers, Bennie Freakin' Fowler (are you serious - dude is 28 yrs old - why is he playing at all?).
The Giants season is over - let's be forward thinking NOW and see what else is on this roster can/wants to play.
Oh by the way - they haven't done this ANY of the last two years when they sucked just as bad.
FRUSTRATION.
What does that mean exactly? A general strategy that is asked of whoever is coaching the team? Sure seems that way. The Giants D is a perfect example: Spags is a blitz happy aggressive guy from the JJ tree and gets here and drops 7 much of the time. Bettcher is a blitz happy guy from AZ who plays press man. Gets here and does the exact same thing Spags did.
Are these guys being told to play the Rod Rust bend don't break style? We've been watching the Giants Way recipe for years, heard Tom & Eli say it many times: Keep the game close and try to win in the 4th quarter. Bend don't break plays right into it. I even remember Coughlin talking about a New York Giants Playbook that seems to transcend coaches.
I don't see how the next GM isn't Abrams so given that and Gettleman's age, they may as well make the switch next year and focus on the new head coach.
Everything below assumes I can't get BB, Saban or John Harbaugh. If I could, I would move heaven and earth to do so.
I don't lean offense or defense but if we're talking about coordinators, I'd take a long look at the crop of special teams coordinators. Their jobs most closely resemble the head coach role in managing multiple units rather than a singular focus. I don't want another "QB guru" to come in and miss the big picture like Shurmur has.
My Head Coach search would include 3 special teams coordinators, a couple who have great reputations with units that perform year in and year out, and another we are more familiar with from his time as a player here and has his unit in the top 10 according to football outsiders. I think this is a really interesting group.
Dave Toub
John Fassel
Chase Blackburn
I would also love to talk to Kris Richard.
He has an excellent body of work in both Seattle and Dallas and seems to have really taken over the majority of the calls from Marinelli for a terrific Dallas defense. Taking from Dallas is another obvious benefit here.
My top choice however is probably Dan Campbell. Has played for Parcells and coached next to Payton for years now. I like the idea of Parcells>>Payton>>Campbell and I have to believe a lot of the football philosophies are in line. If you can get a guy like Payton without his douche personality you've got a hell of a football coach.
Since I disagree with a lot of the opinions stated above, like that the online of Solder, Hernandez, Pio, Zeitler and Remmers is no better than the Flowers, Pugh, Richburg, Jerry, Hart line was.
Points like that OL of 2017 giving up instant sacks, sacks that poured through the A gaps, and this line operates in front of a QB who's still in diapers reading the field and often holds the ball too long, details like that matter and make the arguments like "the OL still sucks" disingenuous.
Dangerously disingenuous. Or that pulling the plug on DG after 2 seasons is ridiculous when to many eyes the drafts look much much better than Reese's Ross's were...
So Carter and Hill haven't lived up to our hopes? Again how do they compare with Jerrel Jernigan and Ramses Barden?
Two of those 4 guys are indeed NFL players and the other two were not!
Finding the biggest pitchfork and taking a stance at the front of the mob isn't exactly a heroic act IMO, and I neither laud nor agree with it.
Even if I'm seriously concerned about Pat Shurmer as HC.
LOL on the mixed metaphor... I should have caught that.
The Giants are stuck in a time warp. The best teams in the NFL are not run by powerful all knowing GMs who shape and mold championship teams from the cushy confines of the front office. The best teams are run by Head Coaches that dictate the culture of the entire organization from staff, to scouts, to players and salaries. Belicheck does not answer to a GM. Neither does Sean Payton Andy Reid or Pete Carroll.
In my mind the best thing that Mara/Tisch can do to modernize the team is hire the best HC available that can come in immediately and develop Jones, while at the same time installing a relentless work ethic and hungry attitude throughout the entire organization to find, train and develop the best players at every level. In my mind that would be someone like Josh McDaniels or Lincoln Riley, but regardless the HC needs to have input on whover is running the front office.
Putzing around with another life-long Giants front office suit as GM would just be another couple years wasted expecting different results.
This is top of the problem, unless Mara breaks this, all the rest of the piece will just be the same sputtering process. Change your ways and we might see things change for the better. Period
Eli carried this team on his back during the erosion of talent. Now we are headed in the right direction. some of the needed parts are on the roster and most certainly some are not.
This will be addressed thru free agency and draft again. What I like is the team does seem to have a good attitude on the field and even though they constantly shoot themselves in the foot -rookies mistakes mostly and a serious lack of talent at linebacker and edge rushers they keep fighting to win. You don't pull the plug on that -even if the record is horrid.
In fact im glad we will be getting another high draft pick.. another potential blue chip to add. One of the frustrating things for me was team stayed middle of field for drafts when they really needed to be at the top.
I do agree that we need to rebuild our scouting system especially when it comes to the line and linebackers but they did a much better the last 2 years. So chill relax and don't let the frustrations of the last regime upset you.
About Betcher -everyone wanted him and Arians said he was a stud D coach. I believe him. He too needs time
Shurmur needs to get a team together before he can be judged.
Don't forget most of you hated Accorsi, Young, Parcells, Belichek, Coughlin Spags too. It takes time.
But it's not getting better.
The offensive line and defense are getting worse with each game. Saquon is already affected. Soon Daniel Jones will be impacted too (folks are legitimately concerned about the fumbles, but he's getting clobbered back there).
Gettleman said his #1 priority was Hog Mollies. He's failed miserably.
Since I disagree with a lot of the opinions stated above, like that the online of Solder, Hernandez, Pio, Zeitler and Remmers is no better than the Flowers, Pugh, Richburg, Jerry, Hart line was.
Points like that OL of 2017 giving up instant sacks, sacks that poured through the A gaps, and this line operates in front of a QB who's still in diapers reading the field and often holds the ball too long, details like that matter and make the arguments like "the OL still sucks" disingenuous.
Dangerously disingenuous. Or that pulling the plug on DG after 2 seasons is ridiculous when to many eyes the drafts look much much better than Reese's Ross's were...
So Carter and Hill haven't lived up to our hopes? Again how do they compare with Jerrel Jernigan and Ramses Barden?
Two of those 4 guys are indeed NFL players and the other two were not!
Finding the biggest pitchfork and taking a stance at the front of the mob isn't exactly a heroic act IMO, and I neither laud nor agree with it.
Even if I'm seriously concerned about Pat Shurmer as HC.
Excellent points
But it's not getting better.
The offensive line and defense are getting worse with each game. Saquon is already affected. Soon Daniel Jones will be impacted too (folks are legitimately concerned about the fumbles, but he's getting clobbered back there).
Gettleman said his #1 priority was Hog Mollies. He's failed miserably.
It looks better to me. First we are NOT getting blown off the field as soon as the game starts. This QB has had time to scan the field much more than ELi the last 2 yrs. The hog mollies -we drafted 2 one is playing and looks the part the other we traded for -a very unpopular trade but has now been proven to be correct same with drafting QB DJ. Solder was a stop gap that was needed -Flowers was getting killed. Omemah was a cheap shot that didn't worked -but he wanted Norwell who went to Jax instead. Kid looked pretty good last week at RT and Id like to see some playing time for big George too -but that's for next year.
Saquon is hurt -he is playing hurt he doesn't have the burst or strength he had before the injury -he will be fine but it might be awhile.
The DL played well and I like the parts added Williams was a good get. Our LBrs are trash. Ogletree was a need for someone in the middle to call out the Defense. I would have rather gone a different direction but Betcher needed someone. Same reason why sign Bethea. The Rookies tho look ok -growing pains sure but not getting blown off the field. We need LBrs!!!! We have needed them since Gettleman signed Antonio Pierce.
But expecting this team to quickly become a playyyyyoff team is unrealistic.
The Jets - who were averaging about 12 points per game - just marched and down the field against the Giants.
Barkley got one yard on 13 carries. Gallman had two yards.
And it arrow has been pointing down the past six games in both of these areas.
I don't want any parts of Matt Rhule or Robert Saleh or Kris Richard.
No up and coming hot commodity coordinator or college coach non-sense.
Grow a set and hire a legend.
Do everything you can to lure Saban to the Giants. Do everything you can to convince Bill Cowher to come out of retirement.
Get a guy that you KNOW will win. Do it right this time.
Wake up.
They trade for and use picks on the DL, Lawrence, Williams, Tomlinson, Hill. But it's not fixed.
Because these things are never fixed, they have to keep spending more and more resources which further neglects other positions. Resources are finite.
It's a real problem for this team. Every year is like groundhogs day.
Wake up.
And without - supposedly - their best pass rusher, LW.
Who we stupidly, and that can't be underscored enough, traded for.
As great as the Steelers trade was for Fitzpatrick, our trade for LW was the complete opposite - tragically dumb.
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26 games is not a lot of time.
But it's not getting better.
The offensive line and defense are getting worse with each game. Saquon is already affected. Soon Daniel Jones will be impacted too (folks are legitimately concerned about the fumbles, but he's getting clobbered back there).
Gettleman said his #1 priority was Hog Mollies. He's failed miserably.
It looks better to me. First we are NOT getting blown off the field as soon as the game starts. This QB has had time to scan the field much more than ELi the last 2 yrs. The hog mollies -we drafted 2 one is playing and looks the part the other we traded for -a very unpopular trade but has now been proven to be correct same with drafting QB DJ. Solder was a stop gap that was needed -Flowers was getting killed. Omemah was a cheap shot that didn't worked -but he wanted Norwell who went to Jax instead. Kid looked pretty good last week at RT and Id like to see some playing time for big George too -but that's for next year.
Saquon is hurt -he is playing hurt he doesn't have the burst or strength he had before the injury -he will be fine but it might be awhile.
The DL played well and I like the parts added Williams was a good get. Our LBrs are trash. Ogletree was a need for someone in the middle to call out the Defense. I would have rather gone a different direction but Betcher needed someone. Same reason why sign Bethea. The Rookies tho look ok -growing pains sure but not getting blown off the field. We need LBrs!!!! We have needed them since Gettleman signed Antonio Pierce.
But expecting this team to quickly become a playyyyyoff team is unrealistic.
As for the OL, Solder has not been better than Flowers, which is saying a lot. But, we are paying him as a top OL. Hernandez seems to have regressed, or at the very least not gotten any better. We have no viable OC, Zeitler is a good, but not special RG, and Remmers is as bad as Solder at RT. We have no viable depth to replace the 3 stiffs.
This has contributed greatly to Barkley doing nothing for a few weeks and Jones continually under pressure.
The D is absolutely putrid. There is no better way to describe them. And trading a 3rd round pick (assuming we re-sign him) for a FA who has underwhelmed the team that traded him at #6 was beyond stupid. If he plays decently for us, it drives up his asking price, which is already high, without having any real impact on the outcome of this season. If they liked him so much, they should have allowed him to continue to get double teamed on the Jets and pay less for him in FA.
I want to say yes. But that would create a lot of acrimony.
He's going to want $17M+.
Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.
$56M guaranteed. That's the hogmollie market.
Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.
We had some talent, but traded just about all the talent we had for a hot dog and bag of peanuts.
Is your head coach someone you honestly see winning a Super Bowl? If not, you move on.
This sums up my feeling about PS. Will he be a decent coach if we give a roster? Probably, but I'm having a hard time believing he can win a Superbowl with the mistakes he makes. Andy Reid still hasn't, and he may prove he needs an elite QB to do so. PS isn't even close to Reid's level.
Defenses are at a disadvantage due to offensive innovation, and that's not going to change anytime soon.
Building the team around defense is going right back to the NY Giants well. You want to break the cycle, but you're just going right back to the beginning of the cycle.
Think ahead, and think innovatively. We were disrupters with 4 DE defensive line or the amazing LB and defense we had in the 80s. We have to disrupt again.
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will use Trey Flowers as their baseline.
$56M guaranteed. That's the hogmollie market.
It's a "that's-what-you-get-for-making-a-stupid-trade" market...
After that build the defense, and if you are going to run a 3-4 you need really good LBs.
Regarding the OL investment though. I have to disagree, The Giants have not properly invested in the OL. FA does not replace investing draft capital. In today's NFL, decent OL just don't hit FA. OL that do either are at the end of their career, have red flags or just stink. If a decent OL does hit FA, they simply cost too much.
Since 2013 (7 drafts) the Giants have spent 2 picks each in rounds 1, 2, 6, and 7. It total that represents about 14% of their total draft capital. Since 2016 (4 drafts), the Giants have spent a 2nd and a 7th or 4% of their draft capital over that time, and since Gettleman arrived they have spent the same picks representing 8% of their capital.
Since OL represents 23% of the players on the field (5 out of 22) it would make sense that you at least spend a proportionate amount of draft capital on the OL, about 23% (maybe a bit more to make up for the lack of FA).
14% over 7 years is at best 60% of what should have been spent.
4% over 4 years is at best 17%
and 8% over 2 is at best 35%.
This level of investment is way too low. You can try to supplement with UDFAs, but that is not a reliable source of solid players. Finding a starting OL in UDFA is akin to a lottery win.
The Giants have NOT invested enough draft capital in the OL.
In 7 drafts, the Giants have not chosen even 1 OL in rounds 3 - 5.
What compounds this is that by the end of 2015, the team knew that their investments were not working. Pugh failed at T and moved to G, and he and Richburg could not stay healthy. And there were major questions about Flowers. At that point it would make sense to up the investment to get replacements. Instead the Giants drastically reduced their investment. When DG arrive, the "Hog-Mollie" king, he knew he needed 5 new starters, plus backups (the cupboard was completely empty). And his investment has still been way below average.
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There was so little talent on this team 2 years ago it's hard to fathom. DG had to find 20 new starters and 10 decent backups including a franchise QB. And there need to be a handful of pro bowlers in there as well. Some of that is done, most of it isn't.
Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.
We had some talent, but traded just about all the talent we had for a hot dog and bag of peanuts.
Not really true. We got good value for OBJ and the other "talent" wasn't that good (Apple) or wasn't going to be good by the time the team was (Snacks).
He certainly talks the talk, but has shown little in walking the walk.
Horrible hire at this point...
Baber's mental state?
Seems like there are other examples as well.
Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.
How are his efforts to add to the Offensive Line faring so far? He should be graded on that, rather than emphasizing how bad the situation was that he took over. A lot has already been changed. This is his roster now.
He certainly talks the talk, but has shown little in walking the walk.
Horrible hire at this point...
Well, I won't argue about that...
I am just countering that narrative around here that the Giants have invested "enough" in the OL but they failed.
Yes, what they have invested has failed, but it also wasn't enough. Both statements are true.
But, yeah, I am not a fan of DG's judgement either.
But, DG doesn't get a pass anymore on the current team. THere are only 9 players left from before he got here. Only 4 of those get meaningful snaps. The vast majority of playing time is going to guys that DG brought in.
Whats more is everybody talks about the great job he is doing clearing out contract, and its not his fault that there is o much dead cap this year. That is BS. The contracts from Reese that Gettlman has dumped have cost the Giants 13M in dead space. The contract that Gettleman himself has given out and terminated have cost the Giants more than 24M in dead cap. DG is far more responsible for the dead cap issues we have now that was Reese!
Folks, you have to stop giving him a pass and blaming it all on Reese. More of this is on DG than you realize.
He decided to dismantle and rebuild - and even if you think he got fair value for what he traded away, he blew it on players who haven't been able to contribute much, as the record shows.
His FA record is abysmal. After convincing people that he knows his "Hog Mollies", he's managed to acquire one good (in trade) OL, and one inconsistent one via draft. The rest are just as bad as anything Reese ever trotted out, including matching the awful Flowers draft with a player equally terrible being paid top OLT money at the time.
He's had one bad FA signing after the next, from guys that needed to be cut shortly after they were signed (Omameh) to guys that never contributed a damn thing (Stewart).
He pissed away what will likely be a high 3rd and 4th for the rights to overpay Leonard Williams, a 4th for the rights to overpay an awful Alec Ogletree, and a 4th for a player who didn't make it two seasons in Lauletta.
Even Saquon Barkley, who everyone had fitted for a gold jacket before he was drafted, has looked pretty bad this year, both before and after his injury.
It's time for these guys to go. It's time for Mara to sack up, break out of his comfort zone, hire an outsider, and CHANGE the way they've done things forever. Get the lifers who reside at Giants HQ, thank them for their time, and let them go off into retirement or find jobs elsewhere. Get someone other than Ernie Accorsi to identify some up and comer to take the reigns, to revamp scouting, to hire a coach, and make them fully accountable - let them make the decisions, let them take the hit. Better yet - don't even bother with a GM anymore, get one guy to be the CEO (Mara's words), let him run the whole show and if it doesn't work out, show him the door.
It's time for change. I agree with Eric that it won't happen, but that'll just prolong the misery.
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There was so little talent on this team 2 years ago it's hard to fathom. DG had to find 20 new starters and 10 decent backups including a franchise QB. And there need to be a handful of pro bowlers in there as well. Some of that is done, most of it isn't.
Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.
How are his efforts to add to the Offensive Line faring so far? He should be graded on that, rather than emphasizing how bad the situation was that he took over. A lot has already been changed. This is his roster now.
I don't think 2 drafts and a couple of somewhat underfunded FA classes come close to being able to generate the 20 new starters plus that it will take to rebuild the team. Do you really think we should be competitive now. What did you think our record would be this year.
According to Spotrac the Giants have 63 million in space for 2020. They gain an extra 33 million by cutting Jenkins, Ogletree, Ellison, Martin, and Bethea. They only have one big re-sign in LW.
When you look at the totality of the circumstances the Giants are in a very healthy cap situation and can be top 3 in the league if they want to win some sort of magical cap space award.
I expect them to make some big splash signings. The key will be to sign guys that are young and talented at impact positions of need. There will be some guys that fit the bill.
This team can be good in 2020 — it won’t take a miracle. The good teams around the league aren’t perfect. You can run down every potential playoff team and find weaknesses.
Gettleman just has to nail the off-season, starting with the coaching staff. Sign a few impact players in the trenches in FA. Have a good draft.
I don't think 2 drafts and a couple of somewhat underfunded FA classes come close to being able to generate the 20 new starters plus that it will take to rebuild the team. Do you really think we should be competitive now. What did you think our record would be this year.
Again - this team went from 11-5, to 3-13 in a season filled with injury, to complete demolition and now absolutely lost. Gettleman had money to play with, and he brought in the likes of Solder (as bad as Flowers, just a lot more expensive), Omameh (didn't make it through half the season), Ogletree, Jonathan Stewart.
He wasn't resource constrained - he just monetized whatever talent the team did have and turned it into absolute shit. Give him more time if you want, but that makes you more of a masochist than a fan.
That is so true. Since the end of the 2013 season, every move the Giants have made has been to “patch” things together.
2014: Firing Gilbride; Hiring McAdoo
2015: Firing Fewell; Hiring Spagnuolo
2016: Firing Coughlin; Hiring McAdoo
2018: Replace Reese/McAdoo with Gettleman/Shurmur
-Keep Eli as starter up until week 2 of 2019
Record from 2004 through 2012: 91-64 (including playoffs with 2 SB titles)
-Coughlin was hired in 2004 to build a program & he did it with Eli. This was a very successful run in Giant history.
Record from 2013 to present: 40-67
-All moves during this time have been patchwork & short sighted to try and fix what is broken. There is no program in place, no long-term vision.
2019 is far different than 2004 in terms of the landscape of the league. It’s time to look outside of the building & hire someone to build a culture and program. It’s time.
That is so true. Since the end of the 2013 season, every move the Giants have made has been to “patch” things together.
2014: Firing Gilbride; Hiring McAdoo
2015: Firing Fewell; Hiring Spagnuolo
2016: Firing Coughlin; Hiring McAdoo
2018: Replace Reese/McAdoo with Gettleman/Shurmur
-Keep Eli as starter up until week 2 of 2019
Record from 2004 through 2012: 91-64 (including playoffs with 2 SB titles)
-Coughlin was hired in 2004 to build a program & he did it with Eli. This was a very successful run in Giant history.
Record from 2013 to present: 40-67
-All moves during this time have been patchwork & short sighted to try and fix what is broken. There is no program in place, no long-term vision.
2019 is far different than 2004 in terms of the landscape of the league. It’s time to look outside of the building & hire someone to build a culture and program. It’s time.
I think Mara should hire two or three consultants to develop a report on how to structure the organization, and who to hire to run it. He'd do well to hire Lombardi as one of those consultants.
Also, every time the giants offense faces a pivotal moment, the play gets blown the hell up. More often than not people second guess the playcall and why not? The play blew up before it had any chance of success. Why did it play up? Was it because the other team knew what was coming? Maybe. But that’s a cop out excuse and hides the real issues. In 1990 everyone knew what the giants would run and it didn’t matter. Same with 2007 at times. Didn’t matter. The OL opened holes. We won.
Fix the OL. Priority one.
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In comment 14679246 BillT said:
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There was so little talent on this team 2 years ago it's hard to fathom. DG had to find 20 new starters and 10 decent backups including a franchise QB. And there need to be a handful of pro bowlers in there as well. Some of that is done, most of it isn't.
Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.
How are his efforts to add to the Offensive Line faring so far? He should be graded on that, rather than emphasizing how bad the situation was that he took over. A lot has already been changed. This is his roster now.
I don't think 2 drafts and a couple of somewhat underfunded FA classes come close to being able to generate the 20 new starters plus that it will take to rebuild the team. Do you really think we should be competitive now. What did you think our record would be this year.
There exists a middle ground between "competitive" and "2 wins in half a season".
2 drafts and 2 free agencies with lots of money spent, you shouldn't expect some kind of return?
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There exists a middle ground between "competitive" and "2 wins in half a season".
2 drafts and 2 free agencies with lots of money spent, you shouldn't expect some kind of return?
+1(0000000000).
I think some fans look at the team and what DG has built in a vacuum. FOr example, DG has spent near $48m on FA's currently on the team and hit to the cap. None of them are part of a rebuild. ANd three of the 4 have been bad. That money could have gotten GMEN some core players or there would be more cap to get core players.
Instead they look at the current team and say "Well look at them this moment and you can see they are far away."
OFC they are far away. If you didn't have much talent to start with and your FA signings have been awful. OFC you're going to be "years away." Instead if you had a GM who hit on FA's - things wouldn't look so bleak.
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In comment 14679246 BillT said:
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There was so little talent on this team 2 years ago it's hard to fathom. DG had to find 20 new starters and 10 decent backups including a franchise QB. And there need to be a handful of pro bowlers in there as well. Some of that is done, most of it isn't.
Actually, Eric's own words say the same thing. He wants to built the D but he also wants to rebuild the OL. That's a couple of years, if not more, worth of drafted and FA players still to go. I don't see just how this will all get fixed. Seems almost too much to do.
How are his efforts to add to the Offensive Line faring so far? He should be graded on that, rather than emphasizing how bad the situation was that he took over. A lot has already been changed. This is his roster now.
I don't think 2 drafts and a couple of somewhat underfunded FA classes come close to being able to generate the 20 new starters plus that it will take to rebuild the team. Do you really think we should be competitive now. What did you think our record would be this year.
How underfunded would his FA classes be without his own dead money contributions?
Although, with the mediocrity of the players he has signed over the past two years, maybe we should be grateful that he ultimately gave himself less to spend this past offseason.
Also, every time the giants offense faces a pivotal moment, the play gets blown the hell up. More often than not people second guess the playcall and why not? The play blew up before it had any chance of success. Why did it play up? Was it because the other team knew what was coming? Maybe. But that’s a cop out excuse and hides the real issues. In 1990 everyone knew what the giants would run and it didn’t matter. Same with 2007 at times. Didn’t matter. The OL opened holes. We won.
Fix the OL. Priority one.
Amen to this. If you fix the O Line you can control the game. The key to the off season will be obtaining an OT and C. Zeitler, Hernandez are part of the solution and I am Hopeful Nick Gates continues to get playing time so it can be determined if he can be an NFL starting OT. The Center position is in need of a huge upgrade. Not sure who to target or where to get him from but you need to have a smart, athletic center to compete. A young Tackle is another priority. To add, a good 2 way TE is another position that needs to be added. I would prefer draft pick but if there is a guy that can be had in FA then so be it.
Once you can run the ball in this league it effects the rest of the team. Gettlemen knows this and I have to believe that he will continue to address this vital need.
After that, we need 3 starters on defense:
1. Pass rusher. If that is Chase Young then great. if not then I would go after Ngokue fron Jax.
2. Free Safety. Justin Simmons from Denver would be my target. If not him then Randall from Cleveland. This is a priority.
3. ILB. I would love to see a young guy in the draft like Isaiah Simmons from Clemson but it will take a 1st round pick to get him and I think we will be picking high. Shaq Thompson from Carolina would be a good fit. He can blitz, cover and tackle.
O Line first. These 3 positions next.
Exactly, and the Giants don't seem to be aware of this. In fact they seem aggressively determined to be insulted when that is stated or even implied.
In order to win they also have to be spending big on younger players in FA. No one over 28.
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If you think Gmen won't be any good in 2020 or even 2021- then you have to trade Barkley. Don't you? Trading Barkley I guess would all depend on how heavy you want to go in FA unless you feel the player you get - someone like Young would transform the defense in a year. But you don't have a big window with Barkley, do you?