I think DG is fine as a GM .... his biggest mistake was hiring Shurmur, letting PS hire Bettcher then let Bettcher have too much influence on getting ex Cardinals (except Golden) for his dopey defense... but I do agree with your other 3 recommendations.
I think DG is fine as a GM .... his biggest mistake was hiring Shurmur, letting PS hire Bettcher then let Bettcher have too much influence on getting ex Cardinals (except Golden) for his dopey defense... but I do agree with your other 3 recommendations.
Keep in mind my other points... He will be 69. If you are picking a new head coach, do you want the next GM encumbered with his guy? I wouldn't.
the OL. Everyone is hell bent on this OL being shit. I re-watched a couple of the last games and I'd say a 3rd to half the sacks being given up are DJ holding the ball to long. 2years ago we all figured the solution was having Eli get id of the ball in under 2 seconds. There are times when DJ could have lunch in the pocket and he isn't throwing it away. Don;t get me wrong, thte run blocking is attrocious. So I'd say a tackle and a center are what you need to get. Develop everyone else.
Defense is a must in the 1st round. Whether its an edge rusher an ILB, a safety or even another corner, they have to spend capital there and This is where I am in lock step with you. You have a QB and a RB. Your offense has shown the ability to put points on the board even against highly ranked defenses. Focus STRONGLY on improving the defense. FA's Drafts coaches. This maybe an offense first league, but you'll just be an also ran if your defense can't stop the other team at crucial times.
I particularly like your suggestion to emphasize defense. There's nothing worse than seeing teams march up and down the field against our defense year after year. 2016 was a breath of fresh air in the regard, reminded me of how fun it was to watch a dominating defense.
DG emphasized D pretty heavily this past offseason:
Peppers
Golden
Lawrence
Baker
Ximines
Love
Connelly
Ballentine
and more recently with the acquisition of Williams. Outside of a couple OL picks, I can easily see next years draft being heavy on D as well, especially if Slayton continues to develop as a legit #2/3 WR.
Sadly, I don't see Mara taking a honest look at what is wrong. He strikes me as too afraid to think outside the box & bring in people who aren't part of the Giants 'family'.
But I think there are better players on the team then you think. On defense it is the ILBs and FS that are bad. Good teams have LBs that fly and a FS that can cover. On top of it Bettcher's schemes are god awful. Every week they are 2 TDs down before the first beer is gone, then after they get back in the game, they fall apart in the 4th. How many games have they been in at the end of the 3rd only to get massacred in the 4th.
And absolutely, please dear God, build an offensive line. Clearly obvious that even with mediocre WRs(although Slayton has some skilz and Tate is a bulldog), Jones can get the ball to the open guy.
One decent ER, two fast ILBs, and a FS that can cover would really clean up the defense.
I think DG is fine as a GM .... his biggest mistake was hiring Shurmur, letting PS hire Bettcher then let Bettcher have too much influence on getting ex Cardinals (except Golden) for his dopey defense... but I do agree with your other 3 recommendations.
Keep in mind my other points... He will be 69. If you are picking a new head coach, do you want the next GM encumbered with his guy? I wouldn't.
Eric, With each passing year, 69 y seems younger and younger ... Also, BB, Pete Carroll, Nick Sagan and Bruce Arians are all about the same age and still coaching, which is a heckuva lot more stressful than being GM. Hell, our next president (anyone of the top 5 maybes) will be at least 75 by midterm.
I think DG is fine as a GM .... his biggest mistake was hiring Shurmur, letting PS hire Bettcher then let Bettcher have too much influence on getting ex Cardinals (except Golden) for his dopey defense... but I do agree with your other 3 recommendations.
that's not contrarian. the popular thinking is DG hasn't been the problem throwing the failure on the coaching staff. DG has been a disaster is the contrarian view.
Good Job, Eric! It lays a nice foundation.....but Â
If Abrams isn't the answer, are there any good GM candidates out there to consider? How about coaches?
One thing you didn't mention is the guy on either side of the ball that is an instigator to get the rest of the unit fired up. Antrel Rolle, Harry Carson, David Diehl....they all lit fires under their teammates either on the field or in the lockerroom. Who on this current squad does that? I don't really see anyone getting in Solder's face when DE's continually beat him like a drum nor do I see anyone jumping into Baker's space to give him a pep talk, guidance or even a lesson in-game.
I remember distinctly during the half-time of a Giants-Detroit game in the 80's that we were supposed to win easily where trailing 13-0 at half, Carson went nuts in the lockerroom and called out the guys pride.
I remember one particular game where Kenny Hill was using every play to point something out to the younger secondary members. Remember Sam Madison? Antrel Rolle? These guys wouldn't hesitate to correct mistakes or kick some butt in the huddle to make the team better.
Where are those guys now? and more importantly...where are those guys in the draft or in free agency?
I'd say Ogletree is the other guy expected to be the defensive leader, but he's been injured and/or awful.
Offensively - no idea, but with 3 vets (Solder, Zeitler, and Remmers) the OL really shouldn't need someone in their face. For skill players, Tate would probably be the vet leader, but he missed the first 4 games and has barely played with Shepard and Engram.
The sobering part is I don't think the Mara or Tisch family are going to go out of there comfort zone. Personally, I have been so beat up by this team, I am drifting away. A fresh, modern GM and coach hire would reinvigorate my passion into this team.
Right.....so Gettleman shouldn't get a pass on his roster overhaul Â
Granted there are a lot of younger players, but my god....there is no-one on this team (and frankly no-one since the days of Strahan, Diehl & Rolle) that can motivate or kick ass on the field.
There is very little on-field leadership...which leads me to believe that there is very little lockerroom leadership.
Maybe that is who we need to identify and sign this off-season....those guys!
1) 69 is young in general life (I see that more now than ever before) but not the football GM world, especially when coming off a major health issue.
2) The coaching staff has to go as they inspire nobody and have a track record that says bottom feeder. Time to clean house.
3) Oline is a HUGE need. Do not blame Jones for some of the sacks, that happens. When you can't play tough up front you do too many cute things, too many "soft" plays that doesn't wear the other teams defense out and just sends a message to your own team that we are relying on tricking the other team as we know we cannot out physical them. That has to change.
4) This team can no longer look outside and skill position to build around, they must build up the middle (oline overall) but Center specifically, DT (we have) LB (we fucking have nothing there) and Safety (we have one but need a play maker there)....
5)I would add we need to get two major things not mentioned specifically anywhere else- A) 2 way TE who can block above average and who has size and hands B) OLB who can change the game!
Mara stated at the beginning of the year that he wanted to see "progress" from the team. We really haven't seen it and we are 1 missed FG away from being 1-8. Sadly, I think you are right. It's time to clean house again, at least with the coaching staff.
I'm not a fire the coach guy. But, I've just not seen enough from Shurmur to keep him after the year is over...so far. Bad game day decisions. No creativity in the offensive play calling. In his defense, Jones has progressed, except for the fumbles. He's coaching for his job now, but it is likely, barring a dramatic turnaround, that he is gone along with his coaching staff.
As far as DG goes, I'm not sure what to do. I think he has drafted well. I think he knows talent. He has guts. I'm torn on that one. I think if they truly want to clean house, the front office/scouting needs to be part of it though. So, if you fire Shurmur, you have to fire DG too.
I think Dave deserves another year and I do believe he had restrictions on him regarding Eli. I fully believe Eli was finishing his contract.
Does Abrams have any football background? If he is hired I would think Chris Mara gets more power? Not good
I agree with the defensive philosophy of getting strong on D. The NFC East has always been about Defense imo. We a couple moves this off season I think they can get there as soon as next year.
You always here about the QB elevating the team. I think sometimes it is misguided but I do really believe the right HC can get this going quickly as long as they hit big on the two first draft picks and add three quality starters in FA.
Linebackers are the heart and soul of the defense Â
Players aren’t going to listen to other players that get smashed in the mouth or constantly miss tackles. Deandre Baker, our 180 lb corner plays with more aggression and passion then our 7 year vet supposed ”leader” Ogletree. How are we supposed to win when our linebacker unit is the softest unit on the field. Bethea should just retire, like tomorrow. My perception of him was way better before he joined this team.
Mara stated at the beginning of the year that he wanted to see "progress" from the team. We really haven't seen it and we are 1 missed FG away from being 1-8. Sadly, I think you are right. It's time to clean house again, at least with the coaching staff.
I'm not a fire the coach guy. But, I've just not seen enough from Shurmur to keep him after the year is over...so far. Bad game day decisions. No creativity in the offensive play calling. In his defense, Jones has progressed, except for the fumbles. He's coaching for his job now, but it is likely, barring a dramatic turnaround, that he is gone along with his coaching staff.
As far as DG goes, I'm not sure what to do. I think he has drafted well. I think he knows talent. He has guts. I'm torn on that one. I think if they truly want to clean house, the front office/scouting needs to be part of it though. So, if you fire Shurmur, you have to fire DG too.
Sad times in East Rutherford.
Firing coaches often isn't the answer. But does anyone honestly see this coaching staff being in charge of an 11-5 team at some point?
If they are back in 2020, they'll be gone in 2021.
Secondary has some young players with talent Ballantine, Baker, Haley (better tackler than coverage) - not sure about Beal. Problem with Giant defense is LB corps.
OL - yeah they need someone else shopping for the groceries.
-return to defensive greatness by hiring a great DC: OK, you did say make the next HC hire a defensive minded guy, but it's not like they're intentionally hiring a meh DC.
-fix the OL by properly scouting OL: Once again, you did say analyze the past mistakes/who picked them and stop listening to them. But, suggesting they look far and wide would indicate they only looked far and said 'yeah that's good enough'.
-GO DEFENSE...but make OL a priority. I'd say going D has been the priority under DG. This past draft was D heavy. There's limited resources. making OL a priority means the D has to slip a little in allocation.
One of your points was very spot on: they need to analyze past mistakes and stop listening to those that advocated for those actions. that includes the Maras. figure out what the hell Chris does and analyze his part of the equation. IF John's been putting his fingers in the pie, analyze his ass, too.
OK, two were spot on: pick a football minded GM and let him pick his coaches. If, as alleged by many, the Maras do the coach picking, they need to step away. Let the GM run the football side of the equation.
Thanks. Your idea of replacing Gettleman with Abrams this off-season isn't appealing but seems a good compromise position given the Giants emphasis open continuity. My issue is that I have no reason to believe Abrams has the scouting insight to handle the GM job. Maybe he has it, maybe he doesn't. And I don't believe Mara has the insight or objectivity to know either.
Abrams background. makes Mark Koncz a key individual in this leadership change, assuming he is retained. Mark Koncz Giants.com - ( New Window )
-return to defensive greatness by hiring a great DC: OK, you did say make the next HC hire a defensive minded guy, but it's not like they're intentionally hiring a meh DC.
-fix the OL by properly scouting OL: Once again, you did say analyze the past mistakes/who picked them and stop listening to them. But, suggesting they look far and wide would indicate they only looked far and said 'yeah that's good enough'.
-GO DEFENSE...but make OL a priority. I'd say going D has been the priority under DG. This past draft was D heavy. There's limited resources. making OL a priority means the D has to slip a little in allocation.
One of your points was very spot on: they need to analyze past mistakes and stop listening to those that advocated for those actions. that includes the Maras. figure out what the hell Chris does and analyze his part of the equation. IF John's been putting his fingers in the pie, analyze his ass, too.
OK, two were spot on: pick a football minded GM and let him pick his coaches. If, as alleged by many, the Maras do the coach picking, they need to step away. Let the GM run the football side of the equation.
Totally agree with the GM hiring the coach. Mara has alluded over the years about this "committee" thing and he is meddling. I wonder how much he is sharing his brother or other family members wishes.
-return to defensive greatness by hiring a great DC: OK, you did say make the next HC hire a defensive minded guy, but it's not like they're intentionally hiring a meh DC.
-fix the OL by properly scouting OL: Once again, you did say analyze the past mistakes/who picked them and stop listening to them. But, suggesting they look far and wide would indicate they only looked far and said 'yeah that's good enough'.
-GO DEFENSE...but make OL a priority. I'd say going D has been the priority under DG. This past draft was D heavy. There's limited resources. making OL a priority means the D has to slip a little in allocation.
One of your points was very spot on: they need to analyze past mistakes and stop listening to those that advocated for those actions. that includes the Maras. figure out what the hell Chris does and analyze his part of the equation. IF John's been putting his fingers in the pie, analyze his ass, too.
OK, two were spot on: pick a football minded GM and let him pick his coaches. If, as alleged by many, the Maras do the coach picking, they need to step away. Let the GM run the football side of the equation.
Reese/Ross stuck with Flowers and Hart far longer than they should have with NO insurance policy if they failed.
Gettleman seems to have gone into this season sure that Solder's 2018 season was a fluke.
As I mentioned in the article, they have spent a lot of resources on the OL. But they have also made some risky assumptions that came back to bite them in the ass.
Ownership is highly unlikely to change the way they do business. The only time they act is when they see empty seats. The team has a history of letting coaches hang around at least a year longer than they should, and GMs, it's several years longer than they should. This time won't be any different. Shurmer will struggle through NEXT year and then get fired. DG will be here at LEAST 5 years. Abrams will take over and the cycle will continue.
I can't even picture them bringing in a young talented outsider.
That said, I believe the Giants CAN rebuild the roster under Gettleman. I see what he's TRYING to do, but it WILL take more time. Not what anyone wants to hear, but you can't fix this many problems in 2 offseasons. If you want the stud pass rushers and OTs, you have to pass on guys like Barkley and Jones, or get luckier later. That's not the way the draft played out. You don't shop hungry.
I think many of the guys DG drafted may turn out fine -- Jones looks like the real deal. That's THE most important thing. Slayton looks like a steal, Hernandez, Lawrence. Book's out on some of the others.
But yeah, they need to draft or find stud pass rushers, stud OTs. After that, they need to actually get some NFL-starting-caliber LBs. Previous management never felt LBs mattered in a 4-3, but you're in a 3-4 now. LBs now matter!
On acquiring FAs, I think EVERYONE KNEW Solder was an expensive band-aid, but one they HAD to have. Sometimes you ARE forced to overpay for average talent. JPP's last contract comes to mind. Too much to pay for a guy who misses 10 games a season.
We all OK with Golden Tate now that he's served his 4 games? I am.
I'm ok with Zeitler when he's healthy.
Peppers . . . I'm willing to wait and see what happens with a different DC. He's still only 24.
Markus Golden looks pretty good, but he can't do it alone.
Leonard Williams may well end up being a very nice puzzle piece (I assume they will resign him) but having all these good, young DTs is no substitute for NOT having pass rushers. And LBs.
I don't see them breaking the bank for any ONE FA (like Clowney) this offseason. There are too many holes to have all your eggs in one basket. THAT is why OBJ is gone. Use one asset to plug 3 holes.
We don't know what the young CB will turn into yet, but they haven't had an IMPACT FS that I can recall in my lifetime. Don't say Kenny Phillips -- he was here or good long enough to count.
AS FAR AS THE COACHES GO, I'm with you! I'd be fine with a Defensive coach, but he has to be a hard-ass who actually makes his players afraid to screw up. I keep saying this:
Can anyone here picture Pat Shurmer tearing his players a new asshole? The way Parcells or Coughlin would have?
This team makes the same mistakes week in and week out. Some of it is lack of talent (and rookie inexperience), but some of it is not. A lot of it is mental mistakes.
A disciplinarian coach makes his player afraid to make those mistakes. A disciplinarian coach keeps his players on their toes and enforces consequences for screw-ups.
Anyone think these players are afraid of Shurmer?
Think any of these players hate him (the way they hated Parcells and Coughlin)?
Anyone think these guys are running gassers in practice for bad game play?
They need an ass-kicker coach who keeps them on their toes all the time.
As for Betcher, I'm not sure anyone would do MUCH better with a defense this bad, but there are too many red flags. Why keep playing Baker 5 yards off his man? Why leave Jenkins on Mike Evans SO long? Why are the same mistakes being made week after week?
He ain't the guy.
Also with you on putting the pro and draft scouts under the microscope, but I think they do that anyway. Not sure if WE would hear of any changes there, regardless.
Don't overspend in FA, the Giants need to understand this is a rebuilding process. If they can absorb contracts from other teams for Day 2 picks, that should be the priority. I'd tried to go after FAs at positions the league values less. Namely, ILB, S, and C. The only exceptions I'd make are for Bradberry or Jones at CB.
In the draft...
If there's good value for a LT in round 1, that'd be ideal. Jerry Jeudy is a really good WR, but I hope we don't go in this direction if an OT (or CB) are on the board. In fact, I think Okudah is the best CB to come out of Ohio St.
We also need to start learning to trade down. All the best drafting teams are viewed as the best drafting teams because they have a lot of draft picks. We need to hit a home run on every pick because we have so few picks.
On coaching...
Eric has nailed this, we need to give coaches a shorter leash and admit our mistakes quicker. I liked the Shurmur and Bettcher hirings. But, they haven't worked out. We need to move on.
How long are you going to give the new regime? You think they can fix all this in a year? A year and a half? Two?
Because I think anything less than three years is absurd, yet that's exactly what you're expecting from this current regime - and this current regime will have left the team in MUCH better shape than did the regime before it.
Spot on with the organizational changes. Right now they are so stuck in the old school approach to football it has rotted the core out of the apple of the NYG
Dinosaur Dave has to go as we don't want him with $100m to spend and make the epidemic mistakes he has shown in FA already and what Reese did and got us in a bind quickly with bad contracts
The #1 decision is around the Org. It all rolls downhill and the GM decision of staying or going is key IMHO. They choose and have to work with the coach. Firing shurmur and keeping DG is not the route to go.
If your changing things, do it wholesale Mara's/Tisch and dont be a bunch of pussies. Whats the difference of 2-14 or 5-11 or ????
Get new blood (I like Matt Rhule as coach, Dan Quinn as DC) in this house. Rhule's buyout at Baylor is too much $$$
Once you have a new approach/coach/GM, you can then figure out the rest. 100M to maybe spend in FA (think quality players and don't overspend...ie Williams) or save....some......and getting the OL and D fixed
about the ownership of the Giants, the GM and the HC are completely dead on. There is no doubt that if the Giants are going to rebound, they will need to take a good hard look at how they manage this team from a structural stand point.
I agree 100% that the Giants believed that the NFL was moving toward a more "basketball on grass" mentality and attempted to build a roster and hire a HC to fit that mold. I really think that the Giants under Reece and MacAdoo wanted to build an offensive juggernaut around Eli and win shootouts 35-31 like the Chiefs and Saints (during Brees' prime). It failed miserably.
DG seems to fit the old school mold of winning football games you're looking for. Build the OL and DL - run the football - punch them in the mouth. Which is why the PS pick as a HC was so odd.
Free agency does not win you championships, good drafting builds dynasties. After going through 3 years of chucking my remote and cursing storms after our 1st round picks, I finally have a GM that I not only trust to make the pick but am damn excited when he does.
I see too many gm’s around the league botch draft picks alllllll the time. I am one that does not believe the grass is greener at all. We were so close!!!! Todd Gurley, Laremy Tunsil, and Ryan Ramczyck!!!!! We let those three players go to three teams that are now fckin Super Bowl contenders!!!
Gettleman needs to keep drafting heat, and get a competent coach in here ASAP before we lose the young men on this team. I want the guy who found Darius slayton and Ryan Connelly in the fifth. If we fire DG now, he’ll be rehired in days, probably not as a GM, but I’m not tryna give away Gettleman like we gave away Coughlin.
Although I questioned the choice of Gettleman due to his age, I do think he has done a decent job overall, only to have it totally neutered by THE MOST INEPT AND INCOMPETENT coaching staff I have ever seen.
Also remember that due to the total incompetence of the prior GM/draft boss and the last coach, this reconstruction was pretty much akin to starting with an expansion team.
That said, desperate times call for desperate measures. has John Mara got the balls to take them? Unfortunately I don't think so.
I think the most frustrating thing is that the Giants won't hire a fresh voice.
I hated the Gettleman hire when it was made and while some of his draft choices have been solid and a definite improvement, this guy has no right to think he is the smartest guy in the room. When we talk about free agency, think Jonathan Stewart.
Building the offensive line - look NE with Marshall Newhouse playing left tackle. There is something to a system and blocking schemes.
On the coach, Shurmer is terrible, the George Costanza analogy was classic. Gettleman should not be allowed to hire the next coach.
To eric's point, going back to our roots, the guy I'd like to see us targeting as a coach is the Defensive Coordinator from the 49ers. He seems like a guy, whose players play with great effort and emotion and always seem to be in the right place.
article. This is what concerns me most in the offseason:
"For those who say the Giants will have a ton of cap space so they can afford to overspend, I say no."
Gentleman's FA acquisitions have been very poor, and he might well try and overspend to try and fix the team immediately. Large FA acquisitions have a poor track record of success.
reflecting on post more, yes, I am saying two things that will impact each other: focus on defense and focus on the OL. And you are correct, there are limited resources.
But this is where I'd spend all available resources.
My problem with the current coaching staff is not just Shurmur, but Betcher. They gave Betcher a bunch of new toys to work with (draft picks and free agents) and the defense is getting worse.
As I said, the arrow doesn't appear to be pointing up. This is not based on the last game, but the last six games.
about the ownership of the Giants, the GM and the HC are completely dead on. There is no doubt that if the Giants are going to rebound, they will need to take a good hard look at how they manage this team from a structural stand point.
I agree 100% that the Giants believed that the NFL was moving toward a more "basketball on grass" mentality and attempted to build a roster and hire a HC to fit that mold. I really think that the Giants under Reece and MacAdoo wanted to build an offensive juggernaut around Eli and win shootouts 35-31 like the Chiefs and Saints (during Brees' prime). It failed miserably.
DG seems to fit the old school mold of winning football games you're looking for. Build the OL and DL - run the football - punch them in the mouth. Which is why the PS pick as a HC was so odd.
Shurmur ran the ball almost 50% of the time in Minnesota. Maybe that was Zimmer influenced. He also had way more boots, rolls with the QB. The current offense is nothing like what he ran in Minnesota.
I think Dave thought he was getting that offense. Maybe Pat has determined the Giants can't run the ball but then why these runs up the middle?
that the interior of the NYG's OL would have been a strength of this team at the beginning of the season and the play of the tackles as the season progressed certainly didn't change my mind about creating running lanes on either side of either tackle.
And I hear ya on the PS hire and the amount of running of the football they did in Minny. BUT if you look at his time as the Eagles offensive coordinator - he was much more pass heavy.
Keep in mind my other points... He will be 69. If you are picking a new head coach, do you want the next GM encumbered with his guy? I wouldn't.
Defense is a must in the 1st round. Whether its an edge rusher an ILB, a safety or even another corner, they have to spend capital there and This is where I am in lock step with you. You have a QB and a RB. Your offense has shown the ability to put points on the board even against highly ranked defenses. Focus STRONGLY on improving the defense. FA's Drafts coaches. This maybe an offense first league, but you'll just be an also ran if your defense can't stop the other team at crucial times.
Peppers
Golden
Lawrence
Baker
Ximines
Love
Connelly
Ballentine
and more recently with the acquisition of Williams. Outside of a couple OL picks, I can easily see next years draft being heavy on D as well, especially if Slayton continues to develop as a legit #2/3 WR.
And absolutely, please dear God, build an offensive line. Clearly obvious that even with mediocre WRs(although Slayton has some skilz and Tate is a bulldog), Jones can get the ball to the open guy.
One decent ER, two fast ILBs, and a FS that can cover would really clean up the defense.
Two OTs, a C and the offense will be fine.
Quote:
I think DG is fine as a GM .... his biggest mistake was hiring Shurmur, letting PS hire Bettcher then let Bettcher have too much influence on getting ex Cardinals (except Golden) for his dopey defense... but I do agree with your other 3 recommendations.
Keep in mind my other points... He will be 69. If you are picking a new head coach, do you want the next GM encumbered with his guy? I wouldn't.
Eric, With each passing year, 69 y seems younger and younger ... Also, BB, Pete Carroll, Nick Sagan and Bruce Arians are all about the same age and still coaching, which is a heckuva lot more stressful than being GM. Hell, our next president (anyone of the top 5 maybes) will be at least 75 by midterm.
Eric from BBI
that's not contrarian. the popular thinking is DG hasn't been the problem throwing the failure on the coaching staff. DG has been a disaster is the contrarian view.
If Abrams isn't the answer, are there any good GM candidates out there to consider? How about coaches?
One thing you didn't mention is the guy on either side of the ball that is an instigator to get the rest of the unit fired up. Antrel Rolle, Harry Carson, David Diehl....they all lit fires under their teammates either on the field or in the lockerroom. Who on this current squad does that? I don't really see anyone getting in Solder's face when DE's continually beat him like a drum nor do I see anyone jumping into Baker's space to give him a pep talk, guidance or even a lesson in-game.
I remember distinctly during the half-time of a Giants-Detroit game in the 80's that we were supposed to win easily where trailing 13-0 at half, Carson went nuts in the lockerroom and called out the guys pride.
I remember one particular game where Kenny Hill was using every play to point something out to the younger secondary members. Remember Sam Madison? Antrel Rolle? These guys wouldn't hesitate to correct mistakes or kick some butt in the huddle to make the team better.
Where are those guys now? and more importantly...where are those guys in the draft or in free agency?
What else has he done - scout pro personnel? college?
if he hasn't and is more of a manager/leader then he needs a really deep bench of good scouts.
Eric - why the trust in Abrams?
I'd say Ogletree is the other guy expected to be the defensive leader, but he's been injured and/or awful.
Offensively - no idea, but with 3 vets (Solder, Zeitler, and Remmers) the OL really shouldn't need someone in their face. For skill players, Tate would probably be the vet leader, but he missed the first 4 games and has barely played with Shepard and Engram.
The sobering part is I don't think the Mara or Tisch family are going to go out of there comfort zone. Personally, I have been so beat up by this team, I am drifting away. A fresh, modern GM and coach hire would reinvigorate my passion into this team.
There is very little on-field leadership...which leads me to believe that there is very little lockerroom leadership.
Maybe that is who we need to identify and sign this off-season....those guys!
2) The coaching staff has to go as they inspire nobody and have a track record that says bottom feeder. Time to clean house.
3) Oline is a HUGE need. Do not blame Jones for some of the sacks, that happens. When you can't play tough up front you do too many cute things, too many "soft" plays that doesn't wear the other teams defense out and just sends a message to your own team that we are relying on tricking the other team as we know we cannot out physical them. That has to change.
4) This team can no longer look outside and skill position to build around, they must build up the middle (oline overall) but Center specifically, DT (we have) LB (we fucking have nothing there) and Safety (we have one but need a play maker there)....
5)I would add we need to get two major things not mentioned specifically anywhere else- A) 2 way TE who can block above average and who has size and hands B) OLB who can change the game!
forgot "do"
I'm not a fire the coach guy. But, I've just not seen enough from Shurmur to keep him after the year is over...so far. Bad game day decisions. No creativity in the offensive play calling. In his defense, Jones has progressed, except for the fumbles. He's coaching for his job now, but it is likely, barring a dramatic turnaround, that he is gone along with his coaching staff.
As far as DG goes, I'm not sure what to do. I think he has drafted well. I think he knows talent. He has guts. I'm torn on that one. I think if they truly want to clean house, the front office/scouting needs to be part of it though. So, if you fire Shurmur, you have to fire DG too.
Sad times in East Rutherford.
I think Dave deserves another year and I do believe he had restrictions on him regarding Eli. I fully believe Eli was finishing his contract.
Does Abrams have any football background? If he is hired I would think Chris Mara gets more power? Not good
I agree with the defensive philosophy of getting strong on D. The NFC East has always been about Defense imo. We a couple moves this off season I think they can get there as soon as next year.
You always here about the QB elevating the team. I think sometimes it is misguided but I do really believe the right HC can get this going quickly as long as they hit big on the two first draft picks and add three quality starters in FA.
I'm not a fire the coach guy. But, I've just not seen enough from Shurmur to keep him after the year is over...so far. Bad game day decisions. No creativity in the offensive play calling. In his defense, Jones has progressed, except for the fumbles. He's coaching for his job now, but it is likely, barring a dramatic turnaround, that he is gone along with his coaching staff.
As far as DG goes, I'm not sure what to do. I think he has drafted well. I think he knows talent. He has guts. I'm torn on that one. I think if they truly want to clean house, the front office/scouting needs to be part of it though. So, if you fire Shurmur, you have to fire DG too.
Sad times in East Rutherford.
Firing coaches often isn't the answer. But does anyone honestly see this coaching staff being in charge of an 11-5 team at some point?
If they are back in 2020, they'll be gone in 2021.
OL - yeah they need someone else shopping for the groceries.
-fix the OL by properly scouting OL: Once again, you did say analyze the past mistakes/who picked them and stop listening to them. But, suggesting they look far and wide would indicate they only looked far and said 'yeah that's good enough'.
-GO DEFENSE...but make OL a priority. I'd say going D has been the priority under DG. This past draft was D heavy. There's limited resources. making OL a priority means the D has to slip a little in allocation.
One of your points was very spot on: they need to analyze past mistakes and stop listening to those that advocated for those actions. that includes the Maras. figure out what the hell Chris does and analyze his part of the equation. IF John's been putting his fingers in the pie, analyze his ass, too.
OK, two were spot on: pick a football minded GM and let him pick his coaches. If, as alleged by many, the Maras do the coach picking, they need to step away. Let the GM run the football side of the equation.
Abrams background. makes Mark Koncz a key individual in this leadership change, assuming he is retained.
Mark Koncz Giants.com - ( New Window )
-fix the OL by properly scouting OL: Once again, you did say analyze the past mistakes/who picked them and stop listening to them. But, suggesting they look far and wide would indicate they only looked far and said 'yeah that's good enough'.
-GO DEFENSE...but make OL a priority. I'd say going D has been the priority under DG. This past draft was D heavy. There's limited resources. making OL a priority means the D has to slip a little in allocation.
One of your points was very spot on: they need to analyze past mistakes and stop listening to those that advocated for those actions. that includes the Maras. figure out what the hell Chris does and analyze his part of the equation. IF John's been putting his fingers in the pie, analyze his ass, too.
OK, two were spot on: pick a football minded GM and let him pick his coaches. If, as alleged by many, the Maras do the coach picking, they need to step away. Let the GM run the football side of the equation.
Totally agree with the GM hiring the coach. Mara has alluded over the years about this "committee" thing and he is meddling. I wonder how much he is sharing his brother or other family members wishes.
-fix the OL by properly scouting OL: Once again, you did say analyze the past mistakes/who picked them and stop listening to them. But, suggesting they look far and wide would indicate they only looked far and said 'yeah that's good enough'.
-GO DEFENSE...but make OL a priority. I'd say going D has been the priority under DG. This past draft was D heavy. There's limited resources. making OL a priority means the D has to slip a little in allocation.
One of your points was very spot on: they need to analyze past mistakes and stop listening to those that advocated for those actions. that includes the Maras. figure out what the hell Chris does and analyze his part of the equation. IF John's been putting his fingers in the pie, analyze his ass, too.
OK, two were spot on: pick a football minded GM and let him pick his coaches. If, as alleged by many, the Maras do the coach picking, they need to step away. Let the GM run the football side of the equation.
Reese/Ross stuck with Flowers and Hart far longer than they should have with NO insurance policy if they failed.
Gettleman seems to have gone into this season sure that Solder's 2018 season was a fluke.
As I mentioned in the article, they have spent a lot of resources on the OL. But they have also made some risky assumptions that came back to bite them in the ass.
I can't even picture them bringing in a young talented outsider.
That said, I believe the Giants CAN rebuild the roster under Gettleman. I see what he's TRYING to do, but it WILL take more time. Not what anyone wants to hear, but you can't fix this many problems in 2 offseasons. If you want the stud pass rushers and OTs, you have to pass on guys like Barkley and Jones, or get luckier later. That's not the way the draft played out. You don't shop hungry.
I think many of the guys DG drafted may turn out fine -- Jones looks like the real deal. That's THE most important thing. Slayton looks like a steal, Hernandez, Lawrence. Book's out on some of the others.
But yeah, they need to draft or find stud pass rushers, stud OTs. After that, they need to actually get some NFL-starting-caliber LBs. Previous management never felt LBs mattered in a 4-3, but you're in a 3-4 now. LBs now matter!
On acquiring FAs, I think EVERYONE KNEW Solder was an expensive band-aid, but one they HAD to have. Sometimes you ARE forced to overpay for average talent. JPP's last contract comes to mind. Too much to pay for a guy who misses 10 games a season.
We all OK with Golden Tate now that he's served his 4 games? I am.
I'm ok with Zeitler when he's healthy.
Peppers . . . I'm willing to wait and see what happens with a different DC. He's still only 24.
Markus Golden looks pretty good, but he can't do it alone.
Leonard Williams may well end up being a very nice puzzle piece (I assume they will resign him) but having all these good, young DTs is no substitute for NOT having pass rushers. And LBs.
I don't see them breaking the bank for any ONE FA (like Clowney) this offseason. There are too many holes to have all your eggs in one basket. THAT is why OBJ is gone. Use one asset to plug 3 holes.
We don't know what the young CB will turn into yet, but they haven't had an IMPACT FS that I can recall in my lifetime. Don't say Kenny Phillips -- he was here or good long enough to count.
AS FAR AS THE COACHES GO, I'm with you! I'd be fine with a Defensive coach, but he has to be a hard-ass who actually makes his players afraid to screw up. I keep saying this:
Can anyone here picture Pat Shurmer tearing his players a new asshole? The way Parcells or Coughlin would have?
This team makes the same mistakes week in and week out. Some of it is lack of talent (and rookie inexperience), but some of it is not. A lot of it is mental mistakes.
A disciplinarian coach makes his player afraid to make those mistakes. A disciplinarian coach keeps his players on their toes and enforces consequences for screw-ups.
Anyone think these players are afraid of Shurmer?
Think any of these players hate him (the way they hated Parcells and Coughlin)?
Anyone think these guys are running gassers in practice for bad game play?
They need an ass-kicker coach who keeps them on their toes all the time.
As for Betcher, I'm not sure anyone would do MUCH better with a defense this bad, but there are too many red flags. Why keep playing Baker 5 yards off his man? Why leave Jenkins on Mike Evans SO long? Why are the same mistakes being made week after week?
He ain't the guy.
Also with you on putting the pro and draft scouts under the microscope, but I think they do that anyway. Not sure if WE would hear of any changes there, regardless.
In FA...
Don't overspend in FA, the Giants need to understand this is a rebuilding process. If they can absorb contracts from other teams for Day 2 picks, that should be the priority. I'd tried to go after FAs at positions the league values less. Namely, ILB, S, and C. The only exceptions I'd make are for Bradberry or Jones at CB.
In the draft...
If there's good value for a LT in round 1, that'd be ideal. Jerry Jeudy is a really good WR, but I hope we don't go in this direction if an OT (or CB) are on the board. In fact, I think Okudah is the best CB to come out of Ohio St.
We also need to start learning to trade down. All the best drafting teams are viewed as the best drafting teams because they have a lot of draft picks. We need to hit a home run on every pick because we have so few picks.
On coaching...
Eric has nailed this, we need to give coaches a shorter leash and admit our mistakes quicker. I liked the Shurmur and Bettcher hirings. But, they haven't worked out. We need to move on.
I really do not know what the right answer....
I know the Giants need more talent.
It seems they need better leadership (HC).
It seems they need better player development (OC,DC and position coaches).
Their field leadership make a ton of wrong choices.
How long are you going to give the new regime? You think they can fix all this in a year? A year and a half? Two?
Because I think anything less than three years is absurd, yet that's exactly what you're expecting from this current regime - and this current regime will have left the team in MUCH better shape than did the regime before it.
Dinosaur Dave has to go as we don't want him with $100m to spend and make the epidemic mistakes he has shown in FA already and what Reese did and got us in a bind quickly with bad contracts
The #1 decision is around the Org. It all rolls downhill and the GM decision of staying or going is key IMHO. They choose and have to work with the coach. Firing shurmur and keeping DG is not the route to go.
If your changing things, do it wholesale Mara's/Tisch and dont be a bunch of pussies. Whats the difference of 2-14 or 5-11 or ????
Get new blood (I like Matt Rhule as coach, Dan Quinn as DC) in this house. Rhule's buyout at Baylor is too much $$$
Once you have a new approach/coach/GM, you can then figure out the rest. 100M to maybe spend in FA (think quality players and don't overspend...ie Williams) or save....some......and getting the OL and D fixed
It's NOT too much to ask for some sign that things are turning. Very little evidence that things are a net positive so far. That isn't acceptable.
I agree 100% that the Giants believed that the NFL was moving toward a more "basketball on grass" mentality and attempted to build a roster and hire a HC to fit that mold. I really think that the Giants under Reece and MacAdoo wanted to build an offensive juggernaut around Eli and win shootouts 35-31 like the Chiefs and Saints (during Brees' prime). It failed miserably.
DG seems to fit the old school mold of winning football games you're looking for. Build the OL and DL - run the football - punch them in the mouth. Which is why the PS pick as a HC was so odd.
I see too many gm’s around the league botch draft picks alllllll the time. I am one that does not believe the grass is greener at all. We were so close!!!! Todd Gurley, Laremy Tunsil, and Ryan Ramczyck!!!!! We let those three players go to three teams that are now fckin Super Bowl contenders!!!
Gettleman needs to keep drafting heat, and get a competent coach in here ASAP before we lose the young men on this team. I want the guy who found Darius slayton and Ryan Connelly in the fifth. If we fire DG now, he’ll be rehired in days, probably not as a GM, but I’m not tryna give away Gettleman like we gave away Coughlin.
He did, last season, when he led the NFL in Yards from scrimmage with the same crappy offensive line.
Also remember that due to the total incompetence of the prior GM/draft boss and the last coach, this reconstruction was pretty much akin to starting with an expansion team.
That said, desperate times call for desperate measures. has John Mara got the balls to take them? Unfortunately I don't think so.
Look at the last game, Saquon never had a chance. He was hit repeatedly in the backfield.
I hated the Gettleman hire when it was made and while some of his draft choices have been solid and a definite improvement, this guy has no right to think he is the smartest guy in the room. When we talk about free agency, think Jonathan Stewart.
Building the offensive line - look NE with Marshall Newhouse playing left tackle. There is something to a system and blocking schemes.
On the coach, Shurmer is terrible, the George Costanza analogy was classic. Gettleman should not be allowed to hire the next coach.
To eric's point, going back to our roots, the guy I'd like to see us targeting as a coach is the Defensive Coordinator from the 49ers. He seems like a guy, whose players play with great effort and emotion and always seem to be in the right place.
"For those who say the Giants will have a ton of cap space so they can afford to overspend, I say no."
Gentleman's FA acquisitions have been very poor, and he might well try and overspend to try and fix the team immediately. Large FA acquisitions have a poor track record of success.
But this is where I'd spend all available resources.
My problem with the current coaching staff is not just Shurmur, but Betcher. They gave Betcher a bunch of new toys to work with (draft picks and free agents) and the defense is getting worse.
As I said, the arrow doesn't appear to be pointing up. This is not based on the last game, but the last six games.
Look at the last game, Saquon never had a chance. He was hit repeatedly in the backfield.
True, but he's looked like a shell of himself since the injury regardless of line play.
I agree 100% that the Giants believed that the NFL was moving toward a more "basketball on grass" mentality and attempted to build a roster and hire a HC to fit that mold. I really think that the Giants under Reece and MacAdoo wanted to build an offensive juggernaut around Eli and win shootouts 35-31 like the Chiefs and Saints (during Brees' prime). It failed miserably.
DG seems to fit the old school mold of winning football games you're looking for. Build the OL and DL - run the football - punch them in the mouth. Which is why the PS pick as a HC was so odd.
Shurmur ran the ball almost 50% of the time in Minnesota. Maybe that was Zimmer influenced. He also had way more boots, rolls with the QB. The current offense is nothing like what he ran in Minnesota.
I think Dave thought he was getting that offense. Maybe Pat has determined the Giants can't run the ball but then why these runs up the middle?
And I hear ya on the PS hire and the amount of running of the football they did in Minny. BUT if you look at his time as the Eagles offensive coordinator - he was much more pass heavy.
You guys are going to hear me harp on these things until I'm blue in the face: defense... offensive line.
Fix those two.