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The Jason Garrett speculation has begun

Sean : 11/13/2019 11:51 am
Quote:
Garrett is familiar with the New York/New Jersey market, albeit not as a coach. But he is definitely familiar with coaching under pressure. He plays for an owner/GM, Jones, who is frequently and publicly candid with his analysis of the Cowboys’ performance.

Pressure in this market wouldn’t be an issue for Garrett. And it’s not like he’d have to worry about his GM or owner publicly assessing him on a regular basis, since Dave Gettleman and Mara don’t speak to reporters nearly as often as Jones.

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RE: Here we go..  
Go Terps : 11/13/2019 1:25 pm : link
In comment 14678863 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
again with the absolute statements of who and who won't coach with Gettleman here.

Enough with those fucking narratives.


You of all people shouldn't be accusing others of spinning narratives.
I dont believe he is a good coach  
Rudy5757 : 11/13/2019 1:29 pm : link
The Cowboys have been under performing based on their roster for a number of years. look at this season and its not good.

The Giants might be the worst football team in the league right now and Dallas has 2 wins against us and only leads us by 3 wins. they have 5 wins on the season, 2 against the Giants, 1 against Washington, 1 against Miami and 1 against the eagles which was a good win.

They lost to the Jets. They lost to every good team they have played except the Eagles. Shurmur could have 5 wins with that roster and I think he would have more. hard pass.
When..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/13/2019 1:29 pm : link
I speak in absolutes call me out on it.

You have asserted several times that no good coach will work with Gettleman.

And you've been saying it over and over again. This isn't the principle where if you say something over and over again without evidence that it becomes true.
Here's something that isn't a narrative:  
Go Terps : 11/13/2019 1:30 pm : link
In his career as a GM Gettleman has helped hire only one head coach: Shurmur. Shurmur was, at the time, one of the last desirable candidates in his coaching class. We've heard from at least a couple places that the Giants preferred Patricia or McDaniels.

And this isn't just a Gettleman issue. In general, is it attractive to top head coach candidates to have a GM foisted on them?
Garrett would be an uninspiring choice  
steve in ky : 11/13/2019 1:33 pm : link
.
.  
Go Terps : 11/13/2019 1:33 pm : link
Also, is it good business to have the coach and GM on different timelines? All it does is set Gettleman up as the fall guy when they suck again.

That's what this organization excels at: creating fall guys.
The standard business..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/13/2019 1:38 pm : link
in the NFL is to have a Coach and GM on different timelines.

It's likely the case for 3/4ths of the league because you don't always have dual switches of the positions. In fact, you rarely do.
Is that actually true, or did you pull that from thin air?  
Go Terps : 11/13/2019 1:42 pm : link
And why are we saying that Shurmur merits being fired, but Gettleman doesn't? How has Gettleman's job performance exceeded Shurmur's?
...  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 11/13/2019 1:48 pm : link
RE: Is that actually true, or did you pull that from thin air?  
steve in ky : 11/13/2019 1:48 pm : link
In comment 14678904 Go Terps said:
Quote:
And why are we saying that Shurmur merits being fired, but Gettleman doesn't? How has Gettleman's job performance exceeded Shurmur's?


You think that most NFL teams with separate GM's & HC's also have the same hire date?

I have no statistics but it seems like common sense the majority wouldn't.
Go through the teams..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/13/2019 1:48 pm : link
and see when the GM and coach were hired. We're the only team in our division to have the same timeline. Even the Raiders aren't on the same timeline, bringing Mayock in a year later. I'm struggling to identify more than a handful of teams who made a switch at the same time. The Niners are on the same timeline.

The Panthers aren't on the same timeline. Falcons on different timelines. Saints.

But at least there's factual evidence that the timelines often don't mesh. Unlike the assertion that no good coach will work for Gettleman.
Tough to prove a negative  
Go Terps : 11/13/2019 1:57 pm : link
Gettleman had only had to hire one coach, and that hire has been a catastrophic failure.

Why we should give him the chance to hire another is also something for which we have no evidence.
RE: Tough to prove a negative  
section125 : 11/13/2019 2:11 pm : link
In comment 14678922 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Gettleman had only had to hire one coach, and that hire has been a catastrophic failure.

Why we should give him the chance to hire another is also something for which we have no evidence.


Well, since McDaniel went to Tenn and then quickly quit and went back to daddy in New England and Patricia chose the Lions, I fail to see what option Gettleman had. I don't remember the narrative being that PS was a bad choice being the common thought process. Turns out he is a bad choice, but that is ex post facto.
RE: Tough to prove a negative  
steve in ky : 11/13/2019 2:12 pm : link
In comment 14678922 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Gettleman had only had to hire one coach, and that hire has been a catastrophic failure.

Why we should give him the chance to hire another is also something for which we have no evidence.


Has every good GM hit on a good HC 100% of the time?

IMO it could do more harm than good to fire a GM after only two seasons only to then have to give the new man brought in the proper time to see his vision through, one which often undoes much of what his predecessor had put into place. That's a formula for a lot more years of losing. GM's need time to see their vision through and in DG's case that is even compounded because not only was he tasked with rebuilding a team left woefully thin of talent, but that he also had to find and replace a franchise QB.

The Giants problem was giving Reese too much time but you can't out of frustration make that worse by not giving the next guy enough time.
RE: Did you watch the game against minnesota?  
BillKo : 11/13/2019 2:12 pm : link
In comment 14678714 JohnB said:
Quote:
Garrett had the game in hand and threw it away on the last drive. So many stupid calls in one series it was unbelievable. And you want him here?


He did, or his play caller?
I won't hold Gettleman solely responsible  
bigbluehoya : 11/13/2019 2:14 pm : link
for the Shurmur hire since we know what a significant role ownership insists on playing in that regard.

The reason that I'd fire him at the culmination of this season is for the assessment he made either prior to (perhaps as a precedent of being hired) or upon being hired that this team was in a strong enough position heading into the 2018 season that it was advisable to not only commit to Eli at QB, but to make significant short term resource allocations to players like Solder, Ogletree, Omameh, Martin. And then to basically do the same thing over again once 2018 was an abject failure.

The amount of available resources in this upcoming offseason is too significant to be entrusted to someone who made such an assessment of this roster 2 years ago.
RE: Rhule ain't taking the job if Gettleman is here  
BillKo : 11/13/2019 2:16 pm : link
In comment 14678845 Go Terps said:
Quote:
.


Proof?
Gettleman has a vision?  
Go Terps : 11/13/2019 2:17 pm : link
That's funny, I just see a guy that's changed direction on critical decisions in a short space of time.

Gettleman hasn't been a good GM here. He's been terrible. If we're so concerned with evidence, where's the evidence that he will stop being terrible?
RE: RE: Rhule ain't taking the job if Gettleman is here  
steve in ky : 11/13/2019 2:19 pm : link
In comment 14678951 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 14678845 Go Terps said:


Quote:


.



Proof?


Nobody can prove that, and I doubt even Rhule himself would answer either way 100% without first meeting with the organization, and then listing to their offer.

It's a silly comment.
RE: RE: Rhule ain't taking the job if Gettleman is here  
bw in dc : 11/13/2019 2:23 pm : link
In comment 14678951 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 14678845 Go Terps said:


Quote:


.



Proof?


I think he and the Jets hit an impasse over management structure. I don't recall what the specifics were, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if he preferred more control over personnel decision than the current process at Jints Central.

Hopefully someone keeps me honest on that thought...
RE: RE: RE: Rhule ain't taking the job if Gettleman is here  
BillKo : 11/13/2019 2:26 pm : link
In comment 14678959 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14678951 BillKo said:


Quote:


In comment 14678845 Go Terps said:


Quote:


.



Proof?



I think he and the Jets hit an impasse over management structure. I don't recall what the specifics were, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if he preferred more control over personnel decision than the current process at Jints Central.

Hopefully someone keeps me honest on that thought...


I believe it was the hiring of certain assistants.

I don't think DG has that directive.
RE: I won't hold Gettleman solely responsible  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/13/2019 2:31 pm : link
In comment 14678947 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
for the Shurmur hire since we know what a significant role ownership insists on playing in that regard.

The reason that I'd fire him at the culmination of this season is for the assessment he made either prior to (perhaps as a precedent of being hired) or upon being hired that this team was in a strong enough position heading into the 2018 season that it was advisable to not only commit to Eli at QB, but to make significant short term resource allocations to players like Solder, Ogletree, Omameh, Martin. And then to basically do the same thing over again once 2018 was an abject failure.

The amount of available resources in this upcoming offseason is too significant to be entrusted to someone who made such an assessment of this roster 2 years ago.


Seems like you are saying that Mara had a hand in hiring Shurmur (I think a big one) but then he told Dave to handle everything else? Really does not make sense. I think it is very likely Mara told Dave and Pat to fix the line as best as possible with Eli the QB. Hence Solder
Thanks...  
bw in dc : 11/13/2019 2:34 pm : link
I want to go a completely different direction anyway.

I fully support the HC and GM hat being worn by one guy. I don't like the division of responsibilities. I think it's ancient.

HCs in college chooses his own players, not the AD. They know exactly what they want to fit their system. Pro game should be the same way. The key there, then, is getting a capable staff of assistant who can on more responsibility so the HC can run the team like a CEO.
bw  
steve in ky : 11/13/2019 2:37 pm : link
Not too many HC that are their own GM's win championships. It is a very small club.

RE: Thanks...  
BillKo : 11/13/2019 2:40 pm : link
In comment 14678988 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I want to go a completely different direction anyway.

I fully support the HC and GM hat being worn by one guy. I don't like the division of responsibilities. I think it's ancient.

HCs in college chooses his own players, not the AD. They know exactly what they want to fit their system. Pro game should be the same way. The key there, then, is getting a capable staff of assistant who can on more responsibility so the HC can run the team like a CEO.


It's a ton of responsibility, and not many teams are doing it in the NFL.

Plus..the college game and NFL game, in terms of preparation.......it's night and day.



RE: bw  
bw in dc : 11/13/2019 2:44 pm : link
In comment 14678996 steve in ky said:
Quote:
Not too many HC that are their own GM's win championships. It is a very small club.


I agree. It's bucking a lot of the accepted practices in the NFL.

But what we are doing now it's working. So I think it would be worth the stretch with the right candidate to try it.

Look, it's all academic because I know Mara would never adjust his thinking to move in this direction.
Doesn't have much playoff sucess  
giants_10_88 : 11/13/2019 3:16 pm : link
but at this point all of us would be happy to get a coach that can lead us to the playoffs and even win a game or two.
RE: bw  
ron mexico : 11/13/2019 3:22 pm : link
In comment 14678996 steve in ky said:
Quote:
Not too many HC that are their own GM's win championships. It is a very small club.


judging anytype of sucess on SBs is silly.

The pats winning every other year skews everything.

FYI to the earlier point - the seahawks coach and GM were on the same time line

Reid and Dorsey both started in KC at the same time but dorsey was later canned
I  
AcidTest : 11/13/2019 3:44 pm : link
wouldn't assume that Garrett won't work with Gettleman.

I just don't want him as the head coach of the Giants.
Terps  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 11/13/2019 3:54 pm : link
your biggest issue is that you are one-note. At the moment your negativity is understandable, but your tunnel vision and repetition are so tiresome. You post the same shit 50 times a day.
RE: Terps  
Go Terps : 11/13/2019 4:00 pm : link
In comment 14679124 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
your biggest issue is that you are one-note. At the moment your negativity is understandable, but your tunnel vision and repetition are so tiresome. You post the same shit 50 times a day.


So then don't fucking read it.

I first mentioned Garrett as the most likely next coach months ago. Here we are.

I'm done rationalizing and making excuses for the pathetic way this team is run. Sorry if it hurts the delicate sensibilities of some here that want to lie to themselves about things like Gettleman being a good GM.
And I'm not negative, I'm accurate  
Go Terps : 11/13/2019 4:01 pm : link
It's the team that's negative.
LOL  
Mad Mike : 11/13/2019 4:06 pm : link
*
RE: RE: Tough to prove a negative  
BigBlueJuice : 11/13/2019 4:31 pm : link

Im sure if Rex Ryan were offered a Dc coach for giants we could turn the d around. Ryan had good defenses just garbage on offense with the Jets. OC and HC I wouldnt mind McDaniels or someone with a better sense of mind calling plays


In comment 14678942 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14678922 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Gettleman had only had to hire one coach, and that hire has been a catastrophic failure.

Why we should give him the chance to hire another is also something for which we have no evidence.



Well, since McDaniel went to Tenn and then quickly quit and went back to daddy in New England and Patricia chose the Lions, I fail to see what option Gettleman had. I don't remember the narrative being that PS was a bad choice being the common thought process. Turns out he is a bad choice, but that is ex post facto.
The commentary criticizing Garrett after the Vikings loss  
shyster : 11/13/2019 4:40 pm : link
has been that he is too stuck on the running game and on wanting to center the offense around Elliott.

That would put him in tune with DG but not in a good way.

Also recall that Louis Riddick made a comment after his GM interview with NYG that he got the impression that his prospective employers wanted the Giants to be a running team.

In the room would have been the Maras, Abrams and Accorsi.

Link is to SB Nation site criticism of Garrett.


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And Forbes article criticizing Garrett  
shyster : 11/13/2019 4:42 pm : link
with same theme: he's stuck in the past, man
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Is that the same game where the vikes ran 10 times in  
idiotsavant : 11/13/2019 4:45 pm : link
A row, all zone runs, to score a TD, and defeat the cowboys?

I'm not in favor of Garrett, but if that's the past, ill take it!
RE: RE: I won't hold Gettleman solely responsible  
bigbluehoya : 11/13/2019 4:49 pm : link
In comment 14678982 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
In comment 14678947 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


for the Shurmur hire since we know what a significant role ownership insists on playing in that regard.

The reason that I'd fire him at the culmination of this season is for the assessment he made either prior to (perhaps as a precedent of being hired) or upon being hired that this team was in a strong enough position heading into the 2018 season that it was advisable to not only commit to Eli at QB, but to make significant short term resource allocations to players like Solder, Ogletree, Omameh, Martin. And then to basically do the same thing over again once 2018 was an abject failure.

The amount of available resources in this upcoming offseason is too significant to be entrusted to someone who made such an assessment of this roster 2 years ago.



Seems like you are saying that Mara had a hand in hiring Shurmur (I think a big one) but then he told Dave to handle everything else? Really does not make sense. I think it is very likely Mara told Dave and Pat to fix the line as best as possible with Eli the QB. Hence Solder


I don't think Mara "meddles" as everyone suggests.

But we know for a fact that he is heavily involved in the head coach selection.

It is also my personal belief that keeping Eli as the QB for 2018 was a pre-requisite in the GM/HC selection process. But there is nothing to prove that (or disprove, that, I might add), so I won't insist on that.

But either way my take is he should be fired.

If he was just the figurehead to carry out what Mara decided and build the rest of the roster --> plan failed, short-term roster build-out failed, opportunity of offseason 2020 is too big to risk on a regime that has given little reason for hope.

If it was his own judgement that 'spend $ now to try and win with Eli' was a realistic approach --> gross miscalculation and cannot be entrusted with the opportunity of the 2020 offseason.
RE: Is that the same game where the vikes ran 10 times in  
shyster : 11/13/2019 4:57 pm : link
In comment 14679191 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
A row, all zone runs, to score a TD, and defeat the cowboys?

I'm not in favor of Garrett, but if that's the past, ill take it!


Given the rapidity of your posting, I'm sure you didn't take the time to read.

The Forbes article criticizes Garrett's unwillingness to recognize and adapt to the relative strengths of the weapons available to him on a given team in a given year. It contrasts that with the Patriots' success under BB with a variety of approaches.

The SB nation article praises the Vikings use of Cook while criticizing Garrett's stubbornness in the use of Elliott.
I've said it before......  
Fishmanjim57 : 11/13/2019 8:25 pm : link
and everyone says he's been away from coaching for too long, but Bill Cowher would be a great fit for rebuilding the Giants. He is a defense-oriented coach, and our current offense is weak as water.
They don't need a milquetoast coach like Garrett, they need someone who's going to get in the players faces and demand perfection.
I'd also consider hiring Tom Coughlin as the next GM.
I trust his evaluations about players, and I like how strict TC and BC both are when dealing with their players.
I want Giants Pride to return, right now is buried under bulls**t!
Thanks Mara! Shut up, stay out of the way....just sign the checks and sit in the background.
Garrett's got no balls, he couldn't fix this mess if his life depended  
Torrag : 11/13/2019 8:52 pm : link
I wouldn't hire him as a coach on our staff let alone the top dog.
RE: I've said it before......  
Sean : 11/13/2019 8:53 pm : link
In comment 14679403 Fishmanjim57 said:
Quote:
and everyone says he's been away from coaching for too long, but Bill Cowher would be a great fit for rebuilding the Giants. He is a defense-oriented coach, and our current offense is weak as water.
They don't need a milquetoast coach like Garrett, they need someone who's going to get in the players faces and demand perfection.
I'd also consider hiring Tom Coughlin as the next GM.
I trust his evaluations about players, and I like how strict TC and BC both are when dealing with their players.
I want Giants Pride to return, right now is buried under bulls**t!
Thanks Mara! Shut up, stay out of the way....just sign the checks and sit in the background.


I do wonder if Cowher looks at Gruden is doing and gets an itch.
John Fox still has the itch.  
Mike in Prescott : 11/13/2019 9:00 pm : link
And seems like a mediocre retread hire befitting our ownership. Better than Shurmur, though. I'm surprised his name hasn't been brought up much here.
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Forget Garret and Fox,  
SomeFan : 11/15/2019 8:19 am : link
If we're going with former Giants coordinators, I'm all-in with Sean Payton! Get him and bring Giants glory back!
There's.  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/15/2019 8:21 am : link
only one former Giants coordinator I'd want here - and he has to finish the run in NE before we have a chance....
RE: There's.  
SomeFan : 11/15/2019 8:41 am : link
In comment 14679913 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
only one former Giants coordinator I'd want here - and he has to finish the run in NE before we have a chance....


Yes, agree it goes: BB, Payton, Fox then Garrett last.
What about  
crick n NC : 11/15/2019 9:01 am : link
Myles Garrett as head coach? He don't F around
Bb and Peyton aren’t coming here  
ron mexico : 11/15/2019 9:19 am : link
I’ll take garret over fox but would be interested in Campbell.
Garrett is a lousy coach  
jeff57 : 11/15/2019 9:47 am : link
No thanks.
RE: Please NO  
Jersey55 : 11/15/2019 4:43 pm : link
In comment 14678700 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
This team needs a hard ass, teacher type coach. Garrett is neither. What exactly does Garrett do well?


agree completely with you about a hard ass teacher type coach..
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