3-12-1. Parcells chose Brunner over Simms to start the season, and a complete nightmare of a season it was, replacement of Parcells seemed imminent for a while - 2 years removed from their first playoff birth.
As bad as the season was, the draft produced some key contributors to SBXXV 3 years later:
1. Safety Terry Kinard
2. DE Leonard Marshall
3. OT Karl Nelson
7. CB Perry Williams
8. LB Andy Headen
9. K Ali Haji-Sheikh
So, to reiterate, Giants were horrible for 20 years, George Young and Ray Perkins brought in for 1979, 4 years later team bottoms out under Parcells.
What would the 1983 version of BBI have looked like?
It didn't FEEL like a Super Bowl was coming. It felt like they went BACK in time - even worse than the Cardinals.
83' suddenly felt like 73'.
I didn't agree with the Brunner move, but it didn't seem crazy at the time. Remember - we were only a few years removed from Pisarcik/Goldsteyn/Dean as our QB group. *shiver*
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Thankfully he recognized the mistake and corrected it. I think I remember reading where he once said it was his biggest mistake he ever made as a coach.
At the time, Simms was a streaky young QB making plenty of mistakes. Also getting the snot pounded out of him taking an insane number of sacks.
I didn't agree with the Brunner move, but it didn't seem crazy at the time. Remember - we were only a few years removed from Pisarcik/Goldsteyn/Dean as our QB group. *shiver*
I was a huge Simms fan, I absolutely hated the move. I can't even say strongly enough just how much I hated it and disliked Brunner. One of my best friends and a big fan and liked the move, and we argued about that all season.
Not his face ask. He had his hand taped and a loop of the tape hung free. Simms’ thumb implausibly caught the loop of tape on his follow through, ripping the bone through the skin.
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That wasn't a China Doll hit though, he got his thumb nearly ripped of in Eagle DL Claude Hairston's facemask if memory serves...
Not his face ask. He had his hand taped and a loop of the tape hung free. Simms’ thumb implausibly caught the loop of tape on his follow through, ripping the bone through the skin.
Gruesome.
That was a cursed season.
And they traded Van Pelt after it - that hurt.
You're assuming that some BBI'ers aren't still loading BBI on a Commodore.
Princess Leia as Jabba's slave...pictures or GTFO
Oh and beer.
Too bad Ron Erhardt is dead, with Barkley on board you could bring him back to run his offense.
But I do remember I liked Parcells and hoped he wasn't fired. It was a concern.
Different era. No twitter, no player turnover, no fan groups to yap about each game.
Too bad Ron Erhardt is dead, with Barkley on board you could bring him back to run his offense.
Fuck that, exhume Lombardi and Landry!
There's a central theme around this organization: what's past is prologue.
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cap, pre-FA football era? One where QBs development used to take forever and roster turnover was next to zero?
Too bad Ron Erhardt is dead, with Barkley on board you could bring him back to run his offense.
Fuck that, exhume Lombardi and Landry!
There's a central theme around this organization: what's past is prologue.
You would have been screaming for Parcells to be fired for screwing up the team Perkins resurrected.
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That wasn't a China Doll hit though, he got his thumb nearly ripped of in Eagle DL Claude Hairston's facemask if memory serves...
Not his face ask. He had his hand taped and a loop of the tape hung free. Simms’ thumb implausibly caught the loop of tape on his follow through, ripping the bone through the skin.
Yeah, the face mask was in the 1985 preseason. He smacked his hand on the face mask of the Oilers' Mike Stensrud following through on a throw and sliced it open.
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In comment 14679462 jcn56 said:
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cap, pre-FA football era? One where QBs development used to take forever and roster turnover was next to zero?
Too bad Ron Erhardt is dead, with Barkley on board you could bring him back to run his offense.
Fuck that, exhume Lombardi and Landry!
There's a central theme around this organization: what's past is prologue.
You would have been screaming for Parcells to be fired for screwing up the team Perkins resurrected.
Anyone applying 1983 to today is clueless.
1985: How could the team choke and get shut out in the playoffs? Also, run Sean Landeta out of town.
1987: Even with a strike season, the team should have been more prepared.
1988: Fire everybody for losing to the fucking Jets.
1989: The team is pathetic for blowing the game against the Rams and Simms is washed up.
1990: We're doomed without Simms. Hostetler could barely get us past the Cardinals and Patriots.
Post-1990: I had faith in this team all along. We'll always miss Parcells, but I've got a good feeling about this Handley guy.
And please stop with "You would've wanted him fired anyways," bullshit. The OP is deliberately trying to change the narrative. That was BP's 1st year vs now PS's 2nd. The fact the he chooses to ignore this shows a complete bias.
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Thankfully he recognized the mistake and corrected it. I think I remember reading where he once said it was his biggest mistake he ever made as a coach.
At the time, Simms was a streaky young QB making plenty of mistakes. Also getting the snot pounded out of him taking an insane number of sacks.
I didn't agree with the Brunner move, but it didn't seem crazy at the time. Remember - we were only a few years removed from Pisarcik/Goldsteyn/Dean as our QB group. *shiver*
Yeah but the reason he gave for picking Brunner Parcell's first year as a head coach, not his fourth. Also, before free agency and the cap, so having a bunch of young guys wasn't as crazy as it is now, where, if a lot of the young guys pan out, you will lose a bunch of them because you won't be able to pay all of them after their rookie contracts.
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In comment 14679082 steve in ky said:
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Thankfully he recognized the mistake and corrected it. I think I remember reading where he once said it was his biggest mistake he ever made as a coach.
At the time, Simms was a streaky young QB making plenty of mistakes. Also getting the snot pounded out of him taking an insane number of sacks.
I didn't agree with the Brunner move, but it didn't seem crazy at the time. Remember - we were only a few years removed from Pisarcik/Goldsteyn/Dean as our QB group. *shiver*
Yeah but the reason he gave for picking Brunner was just dumb: "His father is a coach" But it was Parcell's first year as a head coach, not his fourth, and he was a young guy, not someone who has been a coach at the pro level for a long time. Also, before free agency and the cap, so having a bunch of young guys wasn't as crazy as it is now, where, if a lot of the young guys pan out, you will lose a bunch of them because you won't be able to pay all of them after their rookie contracts.
And please stop with "You would've wanted him fired anyways," bullshit. The OP is deliberately trying to change the narrative. That was BP's 1st year vs now PS's 2nd. The fact the he chooses to ignore this shows a complete bias.
And it was a trainwreck. We didn't have BBI, we had water cooler and tailgate pregame discussions and people HATED Parcells by the end of that year - to be teased in 81' only to lose Perkins seemed like a kick in the ass for the fanbase - the anger of the late 70's, the fumble and ticket-burnings was re-fueled. The Simms/Brunner arguments raged, by the end of the season, most thought the Giants needed to move on from both.
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And this is PS's 2nd?
And please stop with "You would've wanted him fired anyways," bullshit. The OP is deliberately trying to change the narrative. That was BP's 1st year vs now PS's 2nd. The fact the he chooses to ignore this shows a complete bias.
I was talking more to the record than the exact circumstances. If anything, 83' was MORE of an outrage than this season - 83' still had most of the pieces from the 81' playoff team, they were 4-5 in a strike shortened 1982, so there was a LOT of hope heading into 83.
And it was a trainwreck. We didn't have BBI, we had water cooler and tailgate pregame discussions and people HATED Parcells by the end of that year - to be teased in 81' only to lose Perkins seemed like a kick in the ass for the fanbase - the anger of the late 70's, the fumble and ticket-burnings was re-fueled. The Simms/Brunner arguments raged, by the end of the season, most thought the Giants needed to move on from both.
Well Parcells should've been creamed for making the decsion. He did cost the team that year. didn't ypu think he deserved it?
But you said "replacement of Parcells seemed imminent . . ."
It didn't.
You also said ---
"but it didn't seem crazy at the time. Remember - we were only a few years removed from Pisarcik/Goldsteyn/Dean as our QB group. *shiver*"
It did. But if you didn't think so then maybe that's your "disconnect." Many of us did think it was incredibly stupid at the time and at least Parcells did end up benching Brunner for Simms (then SImms got hurt.). Thus he corrected his huge mistake.
Yet you can remember for example SY saying at the beginning of the year how PS went away from Barkley he said to paraphrase "I was hopeful he would've learned, but he didn't." Parcells showed he can learn during that season. Does PS?
Parcells comparison vs Shurmur is "night and day" other than if you want to say 'Fans were pissed at both." Sure. There is little-to-no reason to not be pissed when your team sucks.
I don't agree with how you are presenting this AT ALL. For example are you implying that near the end of the season that anyone who thought Brunner was better than Simms? And/or for anyone who thought Brunner should be starting the next year-- they would've been badly exposed on here as a moron. Thus their comments would've eventually ended up as "watercooler rants" only. The debate ended as the season progressed, and finally Parcells saw it when he benched Brunner for Simms vs Philly.
Sorry if I'm not being clear. I wasn't implying that at *seasons end* there was any debate about Simms v Brunner. Brunner, FWIW was the QB who got us into the 81 playoffs and beat Philly. I was a Simms fan, and I didn't agree with the decision to go with Brunner in 83, but I didn't think it was outrageous - same as when Hoss was chosen over Phil - I disagreed, but it wasn't an insane decision.
My point is that at the end of a shitty, shitty 2 win season, nobody looked at Phil Simms as the eventual franchise savior he turned out to be, and there was definitely a debate among fans whether the solution at QB should come in the draft or via trade.
And my point overall wasn't to compare 2019 to 1983 (I don't find that discussion all that interesting), it was simply to ask how this board would have reacted to that season?
Sorry if I'm not being clear. I wasn't implying that at *seasons end* there was any debate about Simms v Brunner. Brunner, FWIW was the QB who got us into the 81 playoffs and beat Philly. I was a Simms fan, and I didn't agree with the decision to go with Brunner in 83, but I didn't think it was outrageous - same as when Hoss was chosen over Phil - I disagreed, but it wasn't an insane decision.
My point is that at the end of a shitty, shitty 2 win season, nobody looked at Phil Simms as the eventual franchise savior he turned out to be, and there was definitely a debate among fans whether the solution at QB should come in the draft or via trade.
And my point overall wasn't to compare 2019 to 1983 (I don't find that discussion all that interesting), it was simply to ask how this board would have reacted to that season?
When we speak of "franchise QB's" each one has a different definition of what that means. However, IMO (and many others) there was no question he was a better QB than Scott Brunner. SO if we call him "franchise" or "not" Simms was just obviously "better."
Yes- Brunner got them in the playoffs but it was the trade for Rob Carpenter that made the difference. Not Brunner vs Siumms. For example, when Simms was hurt/done and Brunner was the guy going forward. His 1st game starting was vs Philly, the GMEN won 20-10. Brunner had a QB rating of 30 in that game yet the GMEn were still able to win. That offense wasn't built around Brunner or the wr's-- it was Carpenter.
Let's put this in perspective. Simms had Carpenter for 4 games. His QB ratings were 106.6, 51.9, 105.7, and 64.2.
When Brunner was a starter with Carpenter his QB ratings were-- 52, 30, 17, 39.8, 41.3, and 64.3.
Brunner never even approached Simms 100+ QB rating in a reg season game. Simms worst rating game with Carpenter was better than 4 of 6 games from Brunner. In the 4 games that Brunner was below Simms worst QB rating, the GMen were 3-1!
While Brunner did have a 94 rating vs Philly in the playoffs - but that was because Carpenter ran for 161 yards. It was little to do with Brunner. He only threw FOURTEEN PASSES the ENTIRE GAME.
There was a complete lack of understanding by Parcells and the water cooler fans how good Carpenter was that year. They thought the winning had a lot to do with Brunner-- it didn't. I also think the 1 game Simms came back and played lousy - that skewed the thinking. Yet in that game there was no Rob Carpenter.
That's how I would've handled it
Back then, we had NY Post, Daily News and Vinny DiTrani - mountains of data and splits were not instantly available like today - QBR? I don't know if I'd heard of that stat back then so yeah, people weren't as stat happy and some were actually swayed by the wins Brunner got vs Dallas and Philly to close 81.
Back then, we had NY Post, Daily News and Vinny DiTrani - mountains of data and splits were not instantly available like today - QBR? I don't know if I'd heard of that stat back then so yeah, people weren't as stat happy and some were actually swayed by the wins Brunner got vs Dallas and Philly to close 81.
Yes- regarding Carpenter! That's the point. But Simms showed us he was much better with Carpenter than Brunner.
Don't take offense to this- but the point of showing you the Qb rating was to show you that it was just more than me saying to you "Simms was much better" - I showed you stats. These stats highlight what many of us "KNEW we saw" which is hwy we were outraged in the Brunner choice. We "saw" Simms was better. You saw it a little a bit. Your water cooler friends were blinded by it as was Parcells.
And it probably was because they didn't use the Carpenter- effect when evaluating Simms vs Brunner and just looked at the overall wins. Otherwise to many of us, it was clear as day that Simms was superior.
There is also an underlying point here. Some coaches and fans are both cautious and have a bias love for 14-10 football. A guy like Brunner would've fooled these fans in thinking the way to win must be 14-10. Simms gave an explosiveness yet more risk that more cautious coaches such as Defensive- coordinator types and defensive-loving fans tend to bend over backwards for. But the point is- Simms was less risky and/or much more explosive when he had Carpenter. Overall he was better. We've sen coaches like the Atlanta coach in the Super Bowl become super cautious and some fans are the same too.
ANd don;t take offense to this- I read what you are saying when you say you would've gone to Simms- but the fact you didn't think ti obvious then you also missed it but to a much lesser degree. The stats I provided in many of our opinions was obvious to the eye. And the fact is Brunner had more opportunities with Carpenter and he was able to win by not doing much - but by winning at the end because of Carpenter that falsely skewed a lot of thinking.
Bottomline is that the stats I provided you mirrored what many of saw in real time of Simms vs Brunner. If others didn't see it -- it doesn't make this "debatable."
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...his arrival, not LT or Simms instantly changed that offense. Suddenly, consistent, sustained drives were possible and suddenly - the Giants were no longer an automatic W on opponents schedules.
Back then, we had NY Post, Daily News and Vinny DiTrani - mountains of data and splits were not instantly available like today - QBR? I don't know if I'd heard of that stat back then so yeah, people weren't as stat happy and some were actually swayed by the wins Brunner got vs Dallas and Philly to close 81.
Yes- regarding Carpenter! That's the point. But Simms showed us he was much better with Carpenter than Brunner.
Don't take offense to this- but the point of showing you the Qb rating was to show you that it was just more than me saying to you "Simms was much better" - I showed you stats. These stats highlight what many of us "KNEW we saw" which is hwy we were outraged in the Brunner choice. We "saw" Simms was better. You saw it a little a bit. Your water cooler friends were blinded by it as was Parcells.
And it probably was because they didn't use the Carpenter- effect when evaluating Simms vs Brunner and just looked at the overall wins. Otherwise to many of us, it was clear as day that Simms was superior.
There is also an underlying point here. Some coaches and fans are both cautious and have a bias love for 14-10 football. A guy like Brunner would've fooled these fans in thinking the way to win must be 14-10. Simms gave an explosiveness yet more risk that more cautious coaches such as Defensive- coordinator types and defensive-loving fans tend to bend over backwards for. But the point is- Simms was less risky and/or much more explosive when he had Carpenter. Overall he was better. We've sen coaches like the Atlanta coach in the Super Bowl become super cautious and some fans are the same too.
ANd don;t take offense to this- I read what you are saying when you say you would've gone to Simms- but the fact you didn't think ti obvious then you also missed it but to a much lesser degree. The stats I provided in many of our opinions was obvious to the eye. And the fact is Brunner had more opportunities with Carpenter and he was able to win by not doing much - but by winning at the end because of Carpenter that falsely skewed a lot of thinking.
Bottomline is that the stats I provided you mirrored what many of saw in real time of Simms vs Brunner. If others didn't see it -- it doesn't make this "debatable."
I meant to say Simms was more risky but also more explosive. ANd Defneisve coordinators and defensive loving fans don't like to watch risk. But overall Simms explosiveness along with if he had the same opportunity to play as long with Carpenter, for many of us he was the easy choice. The stats back up what we saw.