With all the discussion about removing Gettleman and Shurmur.
I am just not sure, that a complete new regime will happen with no vested interest in Daniel Jones. What stops them from drafting BPA....a QB. I just do not see this happening.
So Dave Gettleman is safe. To be honest, I am not even sure if he deserve being fired. I know this team is not playing as if its more talented...but I believe this team is more talented. When he was hired, I felt he needed 3 years....so I am not banging the drum for his removal, yet.
Can not say the same for Shurmur. I just do not think he knows how to win in the NFL. Nice guy, an adult, but as far as I am concern....a loser. Can he learn how to win in the NFL? Maybe...but that seems impossible as the HC.
But will great coaches go to a lousy team? Seems like a chicken and egg story. Bill won't....pipe dream fellas. None of the dynasty colleges will come.
I say the only catagory....is the hot young up-start....too good to care, too young to know better....this would be the list.....not DG ideal list
Now, will that happen? One could argue that the entire offense is not broken....WRs, TEs and QB are all playing decently....the OL and Running game have disapointed. A rookie QB usually gives a coach an extra life.
One could argue keeping Shurmur one more year....giving both the original 3 year minimum and just remove the coaches with the under preforming units? ( not sure, I believe this strategy....they did it and just delayed the inevitable, but I can see it happening). I do agree a more talented team would attract better, more experienced coaches.
I truly believed this OL finally had gotten fixed with the starting 5. I was mistaken. But How can this OL be this horrible. Maybe slightly better against the pass, putrid against the run.....and yes, Barkley has fault in this eventhough I think something is wrong with him.
We can argue about the L.Williams trade....but my gut told me....it was done to give Bettcher one more chance.
So the balance of year purpose will determine coaches livelihood, which young player can become starting material and the all important draft spot. ( God, I hate being here so freaking early....ughhhh).
I always end with team needs...
I believe with William's and Lawrence(w/ NFL off-season) sprinkled with the "try hard" edges (Golden, Carter, X-men)....
the missing piece is the Stud Edge!
If the Giants can find that difference maker at Edge this off season...the Giants will finally have a unit that finally puts fear in OC.
And back to the drawing board for the OL.
How the hell did Dallas do it in 1st attempt? Started with the anchor LT. Followed by an anchor at center....thought they were idiots drafting a center in 1st, boy was I mistaken.
So, the Giants need to find 2 of the hardest positions to fill.....Stud Edge and LT. This off season. Good luck.
A center and RT are also needed to lesser degree.
I have been harping for a true centerfielder FS, a monster sideline to sideline MLB ( I really like what I saw from Connerly..what a shame). I know many are calling for a true #1 WR....
The off season wish list can get out of control.
So hopefully, some solutions can be found already on roster.
What a mess?
I admire your optimism but couldn't disagree more. We stink and I really don't see much (if any) improvement since the Dave and Pat show hit town. I understand all the positive comments regarding continuity but how many times have a GM/Head coach taken over a 3 win team and 2 seasons into their tenure end up with the same or possibly worse record? It should be unacceptable!
Unfortunately, I suspect both Gettleman and Shurmur will be here next year. However, I don't believe either is the right man for his respective position. I'd prefer that we start over ASAP.
2. LT: don’t know what to do with Solder though
3. EDGE: we all know this
4. Free safety: maybe JULIAN LOVE can surprise us and be that man. We shall see these next 6 games
5. RT: maybe NICK GATES can be that man. Goodbye Remmers
6. Center: I’m so bummed that Halpio, Pulley, or Brown can’t rise up
7. TE: I’m afraid to say, Evan is much like Sheppard, a china doll. Can’t count on him.
8. LB: hopefully Connelly comes back healthy. Carter has to keep improving; Ogletree? Bucannon? Golden ?
As you can see, we still have many concerns, so all this talk about firing people is masking what the real problem is....injuries and disappointing players are plaguing us.
DG has turned the roster over, got us much younger, and created huge cap space. He has missed on some free agents, but the drafts have been promising. I believe he stays for the foreseeable future.
2. LT: don’t know what to do with Solder though
3. EDGE: we all know this
4. Free safety: maybe JULIAN LOVE can surprise us and be that man. We shall see these next 6 games
5. RT: maybe NICK GATES can be that man. Goodbye Remmers
6. Center: I’m so bummed that Halpio, Pulley, or Brown can’t rise up
7. TE: I’m afraid to say, Evan is much like Sheppard, a china doll. Can’t count on him.
8. LB: hopefully Connelly comes back healthy. Carter has to keep improving; Ogletree? Bucannon? Golden ?
As you can see, we still have many concerns, so all this talk about firing people is masking what the real problem is....injuries and disappointing players are plaguing us.
Aren't disappointing players directly attributable to a weak GM and coaching staff?
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First and foremost, the dynamic of HC hires is that the GM has a short list that is given to ownership. Mara and Tisch hire the HC. Of course, there is collaboration with the GM, but the decision is Mara/Tisch. This dynamic won't change. It is how they conduct their business.
Mara is not opposed to admitting a mistake. He has done so with Ben. We have to accept that Mara is not going to admit another mistake so quick. He isn't happy with the losing so there is a possibility that if the losing continues that the coaching staff is gone. But I would expect that at the end of the season, Mara will sit with Shurmur and tell him that Bettcher and other assistants (Hal) need to go. I would not be surprised if the suggestion of Pat relinquishing play-calling duties is made so that Pat can concentrate on the bigger picture of HC duties. Pat can either decide to defend his staff and his responsibilities (consequently complete staff firing) or he will accept the suggestions with turnover on the defensive side of the ball and position coaches.
It might be equivocated with arranging the chairs on the Titanic with no real impact on the result. At which point the following end of season turnover will be complete. I still suspect that DG is still retained as Mara will not want to tear down what DG has started to build.
As fans, we have cherry-picked a short list of "keepers". But if we are advocating for coaching/regime change, why should the new stakeholders be tied to DG's players. Tear the nameplate off the back of the jersey and judge each player's development and performance. Look at DJ, we all have hope that he is our long-term QB. But he has been sacked at an alarming rate for a "mobile" QB. A mobile QB was supposed to mitigate OL shortcomings. That hasn't happened. His fumbling while we hope is corrected is not sustainable for any QB. A new staff may decide that they can work with DJ, but it should be their decision. Having a player forced on the new staff is the sort of dysfunction that we rail against.
So if a new staff/regime is installed, then we should expect another complete overhaul including the possibility of trading DJ, Barkley, et al. That to me doesn't sound like a short path to respectability.
Your opinion Diver: Of Tua, Burrows, Eason, Herbert; which of any would you prefer over Jones.
If Giants hadn’t drafted Jones I d be all in on Burrows, but not certain I d take him over Jones.
As to Jones number of sacks, it s not a lack of mobility, but a penchant for holding onto the ball too long trying to make a play downfield
Guess I m way more patient with quarterbacks. I remember Phil Simms first several years. Giants as late as his 4 th season were still waiting for him to come around. There was even talk of drafting Boomer or bringing in Warren Moon from Canada, either of those would have been fine.
But Simms turned out pretty well. He certainly is in the conversation as the greatest Giants quarterback. I know some her speak of Eli in those terms as if there is no doubt, but I m not one of them.
Speaking of Eli, who would have believed he would lead the Giants to two Super Bowl Championships during his first 2 seasons.
I agree with the overall premise that patience needs to be afforded to rookie QBs, and that leads me to the idea that stability at least at HC is the likely route. Fans were ready to run Eli and Coughlin out of town, and then magic happened. The problem with comparing different eras is that QBs today are better prepared to succeed than Simms' era. QBs today are expected to experience some growing pains, but they also need to have success early. Look at Chicago. A year ago, the thought was that Mitch would continue to develop. Now, he is straight trash with the consideration that they may have to go back to the QB well.
Nowadays, QBs need to perform. With the 5th year option (currently at $24M) due to be elected at the end of the 3rd year, that is a hell of a commitment by a franchise to a player that might not be in the long-term plans. People complain about the commitment to Eli and the waste of cap resources and how that money should have been used on other players. In a vacuum with no names attached, it is the correct decision. But continuing a commitment to a franchise legend is different than say the Winston/Mariota situations. Both consumed $24M on this year's cap. In the case of Winston, it was an organizational failure to not draft a QB high last year or sign a journeyman like Fitzmagic. Now, they are fortunate that they are still hot garbage so they can pick a QB this year, but they very well could have been thrust into QB hell.
As to who out of the current prospects/Jones to choose from, I still like Jones. His personality, composure, mechanics, are all A+. But it doesn't matter how pretty of a spiral he throws. If he continues to fumble, he can't be an NFL QB.
Overall, it is hard to defend Shurmur's record. But I think he will be given a short leash with selective staff changes. The mandate will be clear - win or you're done. The silver lining is that if we continue with our losing ways, we'll be in contention for Sunshine.
Seems like the roster rabble rousers mostly sleep in, sheeple don't awaken early...?
Or are they all playing golf with 7 AM tee times?
Seems like the roster rabble rousers mostly sleep in, sheeple don't awaken early...?
Or are they all playing golf with 7 AM tee times?
Micky's posts are all tongue in cheek. He was still on the Reese won't be fired train even when obvious. You could probably search the archives and find an instance where Micky said Reese won't be fired after Reese was fired.
Thanks for the clue about Mickey's posting behavior.
starting "praying".....please, please...let the Giants win this game....i do not care if I need to live through 10 years of misery...
....walkers drops a 3rd down pass...which he never does....Manningham catch right in front of us...you know the rest.
But here we are....
Welker dropped the pass on 2nd and 11. Third down pass was incomplete to Branch.
Food for thought, but...
If you jump on Tua or Barrow this year with a top 3 pick, or Trevor Lawrence next year with #1 overall...
You'd be doing the same thing you accused Reese and Gettleman of mistakenly doing.
I'd argue the opposite. I think the focus on his fumbles has been hyperbolic to the point of excluding any other topic with his performance, even in this thread.
Joe Burrow is NOT John Elway, Andrew Luck, or even Trevor Lawrence. It's laughable to think about the QB position as a question mark in the short term or for a new GM and/or head coach.
Unfortunately one of the big problems of finding a good HC is Gettleman.
There is a big concern on how he handled players in Carolina. Players see how others are treated. They do not like his style. Lack of loyalty. This can be perceived as a liability by prospective HCs.
What is in DG's favour is the fact that NYG is one of the premier jobs. But the new HC will still feel handicapped.
All in all DG may have to go to get a top tier HC.
I'd argue the opposite. I think the focus on his fumbles has been hyperbolic to the point of excluding any other topic with his performance, even in this thread.
Joe Burrow is NOT John Elway, Andrew Luck, or even Trevor Lawrence. It's laughable to think about the QB position as a question mark in the short term or for a new GM and/or head coach.
It's really shocking how inept Shemur is, his gameplan is to have DJ8 win the game, when every other coach limits their rookie QBs, like Carroll and Beastmode, Redskins and Alfred Morris, Cards limiting Murray, Baltimore limiting Jackson.
Do the shurms going to have to B
branch out and dig deep into shula or someone or make phone calls and be humble.
Regarding the Getts I do think contemporary D has passed him a little, But I'm more optimistic that he adjusts.
If the arrow isn't pointing up then, tear it down and start over. But wait one more year
This is what is going to happen unless the Giants lose out the rest of the way.
I like our young CB's. They are just...young. There is talent there and I see progress.
Our DL is solid if LW is re-signed. If not the rotation needs another legit contributor. Dex, Hill and Tomlinson were all playing too many snaps before the LW deal and the dropoff after those four is steep.
Our LB's corps is weak: Mayo and Golden are productive vets that represent value. I'd bring them back if their market remains stable. I need to see more of Bucannon before I decide. Carter is a disappointment but on his year 3 rookie deal he probably sticks. I'd cut Ogletree he doesn't warrant his price tag($11.75M 2020 - $3.5M deadcap) and Connelly/Mayo is a better pair. Ximines has a good first step and AA but he needs strength(terrible run defender right now) and is easily fooled out there. Tauaefa may have has some upside the rest are fodder. ***this unit needs an elite edge threat for our defense to thrive***.
So add an ER/OLB and a FS. Re-sign Williams and I believe this defense will be ready to make real improvement next season.
Of course this is a positional/talent evaluation not about the coaching. That's another problem.
Do the shurms going to have to B
branch out and dig deep into shula or someone or make phone calls and be humble.
Regarding the Getts I do think contemporary D has passed him a little, But I'm more optimistic that he adjusts.
I think so. It is very clear that we need to get the ball down field as I do not expect our org to fix the oline to a reasonable level of satisfaction, thus making extended short play drives risky for flags. efficiency in yardage gained per pass wins games. We constantly throw to what the defense provides and that is under the stick. Not good enough. And we can't run the ball either.
Jim fassel;
When your forced to throw beneath the sticks your wrs get killed, which leads to injuries. Passing on -every-3rd and 8 gets the QB killed .
Contrast that with 9ers,falcons ,Ravens or even Vikings;
Vikings ran 10x in a row, zone blocked runs, mainly outside zone runs (shanny's bread and butter when at falcons ) vs our arch rivals the cowboys . Leading to a TD .
That's the polar opposite of what we do.
Shanny's got the killer ap. WCO isn't a match at Giants.
I like our young CB's. They are just...young. There is talent there and I see progress.
Our DL is solid if LW is re-signed. If not the rotation needs another legit contributor. Dex, Hill and Tomlinson were all playing too many snaps before the LW deal and the dropoff after those four is steep.
Our LB's corps is weak: Mayo and Golden are productive vets that represent value. I'd bring them back if their market remains stable. I need to see more of Bucannon before I decide. Carter is a disappointment but on his year 3 rookie deal he probably sticks. I'd cut Ogletree he doesn't warrant his price tag($11.75M 2020 - $3.5M deadcap) and Connelly/Mayo is a better pair. Ximines has a good first step and AA but he needs strength(terrible run defender right now) and is easily fooled out there. Tauaefa may have has some upside the rest are fodder. ***this unit needs an elite edge threat for our defense to thrive***.
So add an ER/OLB and a FS. Re-sign Williams and I believe this defense will be ready to make real improvement next season.
Of course this is a positional/talent evaluation not about the coaching. That's another problem.
Good post Torrag but IMO a legit ILB to replace Ogletree is right up there with stud edge and capable rangy FS.
Plus we might already have the FS on the roster in Love or Ballentine.
The most challenging aspect will be finding the right HC and staff to pull it all together.
So you clean out Bethea and Thomas(who should be a ST and emergency backup), go with Love and add a legit rangy playmaker in the offseason. Let Love and the new add fight for the position.
I agree with your roster assessment. This was always going to take three years to sort out the roster. One serious concern is how bad the Solder signing(DG's one big ticket FA) is going. That's left us still needing three OL upgrades. Two OT's and an OC. We can probably work with a new LT and OC while moving Solder to the right side. His contract isn't really cuttable until 2021.
Bingo. To suggest that they should stick with Gettleman because a new GM would automatically dump Jones is either extremely lazy or sleep deprived.
I'd go a step farther and question anyone ..anyone suggesting that Love is the answer at free safety is sounding a lot like the annual typical wishful thinking case, in this case, that somebody will use that idea to justify using that high pick at wr instead of free safety.
And do it goes. Not good
Either our db coaches are lacking (very possible ) or Love will be a nifty journeyman db generalist, useful, but never the answer at free safety. Or both. Likely .
The idea of 'use a slow cornerback as a free safety' isn't a good one.
Draft an actual deep pass defending safety with the #s, experience, fast wheels all that savvy and see our prospects change quickly
The most challenging aspect will be finding the right HC and staff to pull it all together.
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The most challenging aspect will be finding the right HC and staff to pull it all together.
Really? We're that close.
Basically, what you are saying here is that you see enough with Gettleman to trust him spending more money and continuing to manipulate this roster.
I find that absolutely bizarre.
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A good 2020 off-season and they can have a playoff caliber roster. The Giants will have a ton of money to spend and good players will be available at positions of need. They will most likely have two draft picks in the top 35. I expect the front 7 to be set and the OL to be set (or close to it) come 2020.
The most challenging aspect will be finding the right HC and staff to pull it all together.
Really? We're that close.
Basically, what you are saying here is that you see enough with Gettleman to trust him spending more money and continuing to manipulate this roster.
I find that absolutely bizarre.
That’s exactly what I’m saying. He hasn’t been perfect but I like a lot of what he’s done with the roster. He deserves another year to get it right.
DG has turned the roster over, got us much younger, and created huge cap space. He has missed on some free agents, but the drafts have been promising. I believe he stays for the foreseeable future.
Agree. The best thing to do is stay the course and see where we are after next year once the off season ends and we have another draft under our belt. By
the end of next year we should have a very good read on the trajectory and if it's not where it needs to be then you make the change.
The Giants need to just on defense:
1) upgrade/re-value Jenkins
2) replace Bethea
3) replace Mayo
4) re-sign or replace Golden
5) re-sign or replace Williams
6) upgrade/re-value Ogletree
The Giants have some young players that hopefully make that like Love and Beal who hopefully slot in next year. They will also spend somewhere near 30M on Golden and Williams.
The Giants need to just on defense:
1) upgrade/re-value Jenkins
2) replace Bethea
3) replace Mayo
4) re-sign or replace Golden
5) re-sign or replace Williams
6) upgrade/re-value Ogletree
The Giants have some young players that hopefully make that like Love and Beal who hopefully slot in next year. They will also spend somewhere near 30M on Golden and Williams.
The Giants can put together a quality defense just by getting the front 7 right. No one loved the 49ers secondary last year.
Golden and/or Dupree plus a quality MLB to pair with Connelly and the defense is in solid shape. Add Chase Young and it’s a defense to get excited about. The rest of the needs can be filled with mid/late rounders and bargain signings.
The defense doesn’t need quality at every spot. They need a front 7 that can stop the run and rush the passer. That can be accomplished with what’s likely to be available in FA and the draft.
I am trying to remain positive about the roster. There a few positions that are so bad that they effect the entire team. Free safety is a huge need especially if Bettcher is retained. We play a ton of cover 1 and the FS position needs to line everyone up and play CF. Justin Simmons would be a main target for me.
Edge Rusher is another huge need. A dominant pass rusher is so important to any defense. We seem to have a good group of interior DL, OLB/ER needs a serious upgrade.
Inside Linebacker. Connelly looks like a player but I think Ogletree is just not playing well. I can see a draft pick like Isaiah Simmons or Dylan Moses being a good fit if NYG decides to trade down. Shaq Thompson from Carolina would be a good fit as well.
Cut Ogletree, Bethea, maybe Jenkins.
On offense, I would start with the Center position. We need a huge upgrade here. It all starts with a smart center and the line calls. Second level blocking needs to improve as well as pass blocking.
OT is obvious. I am hoping a 2nd pick can be used here. Not sure there is a free agent worth signing.
Tight End. I would love a good 2 way TE. It makes a difference in the run and pass game, especially goalljne and short yardage situation. Not sure Ellison and Engram are good enough.
Between free agency and the draft, you need to find 6 players. ER, ILB and FS on defense. C, OT and TE on offense. WR should also be looked at but with Tate, Slayton and hopefully a healthy Shepard, they can find a B level free agent to add to the group.
It is possible to get these players. It might even be feasible to have these pieces change to direction of the team.
We can't get off the field on third down. We need a quality safety and a quality inside LB on defense. Carter X-man and Golden can handle the edge for a year.
Reason 2 - Turnovers and sacks
Improve OL. LT and Center are critical. Tate Slayton and the others can hold down WR for another year.
Reason 3 - Coaching
Don't change Head Coach unless someone "great" is available this year. A new OL coach and DL coach could help. These are the position coaches that usually provide the energy. Possibly change the DC.
Other - The college scouting group seems to be doing well. The Pro scouting group - not so much. It will be important to improve this as we enter into this year's free-agent period with $$ to spend.
This roster is not far off? We have about as bad a roster as there is in the game. We have a lot of money for free agency but a GM who has not demonstrated he can pick well. As far as draft success, few of his picks are playing well this year and that includes guys who played well last year like Hernandez and Hill. Plus, what makes anybody think that Love & Beal will be any good. Right now,we’re hoping but that’s all it is.
And the coaching is uninspiring. I dont see what value they bring except the STs coach. I think we’re going in the wrong direction
This roster is not far off? We have about as bad a roster as there is in the game. We have a lot of money for free agency but a GM who has not demonstrated he can pick well. As far as draft success, few of his picks are playing well this year and that includes guys who played well last year like Hernandez and Hill. Plus, what makes anybody think that Love & Beal will be any good. Right now,we’re hoping but that’s all it is.
And the coaching is uninspiring. I dont see what value they bring except the STs coach. I think we’re going in the wrong direction
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The Giants two best pass rushers right now are free agents. On defense the only thing they are even average at is rushing the passer. They are terrible at virtually everything else.
The Giants need to just on defense:
1) upgrade/re-value Jenkins
2) replace Bethea
3) replace Mayo
4) re-sign or replace Golden
5) re-sign or replace Williams
6) upgrade/re-value Ogletree
The Giants have some young players that hopefully make that like Love and Beal who hopefully slot in next year. They will also spend somewhere near 30M on Golden and Williams.
The Giants can put together a quality defense just by getting the front 7 right. No one loved the 49ers secondary last year.
Golden and/or Dupree plus a quality MLB to pair with Connelly and the defense is in solid shape. Add Chase Young and it’s a defense to get excited about. The rest of the needs can be filled with mid/late rounders and bargain signings.
The defense doesn’t need quality at every spot. They need a front 7 that can stop the run and rush the passer. That can be accomplished with what’s likely to be available in FA and the draft.
Although they can certainly improve, the Giants aren't bad rushing the passer.
Stopping the run more effectively should be equally as important to improving pass coverage.
The Giants literally have the worst defense in the NFL, and a top 5 bad pass defense, all the while being a middle of the pack pass rush.
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In comment 14680947 christian said:
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The Giants two best pass rushers right now are free agents. On defense the only thing they are even average at is rushing the passer. They are terrible at virtually everything else.
The Giants need to just on defense:
1) upgrade/re-value Jenkins
2) replace Bethea
3) replace Mayo
4) re-sign or replace Golden
5) re-sign or replace Williams
6) upgrade/re-value Ogletree
The Giants have some young players that hopefully make that like Love and Beal who hopefully slot in next year. They will also spend somewhere near 30M on Golden and Williams.
The Giants can put together a quality defense just by getting the front 7 right. No one loved the 49ers secondary last year.
Golden and/or Dupree plus a quality MLB to pair with Connelly and the defense is in solid shape. Add Chase Young and it’s a defense to get excited about. The rest of the needs can be filled with mid/late rounders and bargain signings.
The defense doesn’t need quality at every spot. They need a front 7 that can stop the run and rush the passer. That can be accomplished with what’s likely to be available in FA and the draft.
Although they can certainly improve, the Giants aren't bad rushing the passer.
Stopping the run more effectively should be equally as important to improving pass coverage.
The Giants literally have the worst defense in the NFL, and a top 5 bad pass defense, all the while being a middle of the pack pass rush.
There’s a big difference between being a middle of the pack pass rushing D and near the top of the league. Adding an elite ER to what they already have could get them there.
Adding a quality MLB solves the run D issue. The DL is getting good push in the run game as is, they just don’t have any quality LBs to shoot gaps or shed blocks and make plays. A quality LB to pair with Connelly and they’re fine.
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1. WR:Weren’t supposed to have WR as a need but Sheppard is unreliable...an injury waiting to happen
2. LT: don’t know what to do with Solder though
3. EDGE: we all know this
4. Free safety: maybe JULIAN LOVE can surprise us and be that man. We shall see these next 6 games
5. RT: maybe NICK GATES can be that man. Goodbye Remmers
6. Center: I’m so bummed that Halpio, Pulley, or Brown can’t rise up
7. TE: I’m afraid to say, Evan is much like Sheppard, a china doll. Can’t count on him.
8. LB: hopefully Connelly comes back healthy. Carter has to keep improving; Ogletree? Bucannon? Golden ?
As you can see, we still have many concerns, so all this talk about firing people is masking what the real problem is....injuries and disappointing players are plaguing us.
Aren't disappointing players directly attributable to a weak GM and coaching staff?
Good question Vinnie...not really one answer as you suggested.
There are Disappointing players because.....
1. Over evaluation (GM and player personal scouts)
2. Coaching not top notch (Coaches)
3. Players don’t want to put out 100% (Players)