With all the discussion about removing Gettleman and Shurmur.
I am just not sure, that a complete new regime will happen with no vested interest in Daniel Jones. What stops them from drafting BPA....a QB. I just do not see this happening.
So Dave Gettleman is safe. To be honest, I am not even sure if he deserve being fired. I know this team is not playing as if its more talented...but I believe this team is more talented. When he was hired, I felt he needed 3 years....so I am not banging the drum for his removal, yet.
Can not say the same for Shurmur. I just do not think he knows how to win in the NFL. Nice guy, an adult, but as far as I am concern....a loser. Can he learn how to win in the NFL? Maybe...but that seems impossible as the HC.
But will great coaches go to a lousy team? Seems like a chicken and egg story. Bill won't....pipe dream fellas. None of the dynasty colleges will come.
I say the only catagory....is the hot young up-start....too good to care, too young to know better....this would be the list.....not DG ideal list
Now, will that happen? One could argue that the entire offense is not broken....WRs, TEs and QB are all playing decently....the OL and Running game have disapointed. A rookie QB usually gives a coach an extra life.
One could argue keeping Shurmur one more year....giving both the original 3 year minimum and just remove the coaches with the under preforming units? ( not sure, I believe this strategy....they did it and just delayed the inevitable, but I can see it happening). I do agree a more talented team would attract better, more experienced coaches.
I truly believed this OL finally had gotten fixed with the starting 5. I was mistaken. But How can this OL be this horrible. Maybe slightly better against the pass, putrid against the run.....and yes, Barkley has fault in this eventhough I think something is wrong with him.
We can argue about the L.Williams trade....but my gut told me....it was done to give Bettcher one more chance.
So the balance of year purpose will determine coaches livelihood, which young player can become starting material and the all important draft spot. ( God, I hate being here so freaking early....ughhhh).
I always end with team needs...
I believe with William's and Lawrence(w/ NFL off-season) sprinkled with the "try hard" edges (Golden, Carter, X-men)....
the missing piece is the Stud Edge!
If the Giants can find that difference maker at Edge this off season...the Giants will finally have a unit that finally puts fear in OC.
And back to the drawing board for the OL.
How the hell did Dallas do it in 1st attempt? Started with the anchor LT. Followed by an anchor at center....thought they were idiots drafting a center in 1st, boy was I mistaken.
So, the Giants need to find 2 of the hardest positions to fill.....Stud Edge and LT. This off season. Good luck.
A center and RT are also needed to lesser degree.
I have been harping for a true centerfielder FS, a monster sideline to sideline MLB ( I really like what I saw from Connerly..what a shame). I know many are calling for a true #1 WR....
The off season wish list can get out of control.
So hopefully, some solutions can be found already on roster.
What a mess?
If the arrow isn't pointing up then, tear it down and start over. But wait one more year
Agree with our two greatest needs being LT and Edge rusher. Also agree we can't fix it all next year.
I think Gettleman will get one more year. Shurmer may too, though he does seem in over his head. He is a nice guy, but unfortunately that means squat in this game. He doesn't seem to be able to throttle the team at all.
With the way the OL has regressed with what should be superior talent to what's been trotted out in recent years, the OL coach should be relieved of his duties. OF course, that depends on someone else being out there with a better track record being available.
Maybe this time next year we will all be looking back on the progress that we didn't get this year.
The challenge of standing pat is in the optics....and fans want their pound of flesh
Just go back and read those threads . Thats some optics right there.
I'm not comparing Shurmur to Coughlin. Perhaps he should go. I don't think it's time to make that decision.
If the arrow isn't pointing up then, tear it down and start over. But wait one more year
So honest question, do you actually believe PS can win a superbowl? I could Def see him getting us to the playoffs next year with an infusion of talent and a promising QB on a rookie QB contract. Guy is going to make the same mistakes regardless of talent level and its a major reason like a brilliant coach like Reid still hasn't won a superbowl. And PS certainly isn't Reid.
How do you trust him to pick the next guy?
Imagine they hire a new coach who sucks, then you just fire DG? Keep the coach but new GM?
You cant operate that way. Should be all or none.
How do you trust him to pick the next guy?
Imagine they hire a new coach who sucks, then you just fire DG? Keep the coach but new GM?
You cant operate that way. Should be all or none.
I've been a big DG supporter, but if he doesn't fire him this year, its pretty clear he wants a puppet as head coach.
I dont agree that the HC of the New York Giants is not a good job, I think that was implied in your post and is an idea that has been shared by others here.
Being a HC in the NFL is a big deal, and the New York Giants are one of the corner stone franchises and 1 of the more successful ones.
I dont think they would e consider for very long moving on from Jones if they had the first pick, and I m not even close to thinking that would be a good idea. Unless you believe Jones will never solve his fumbling issues, he has been pretty impressive his rookie season.
I actually see more good with Gettleman than bad, but I ve joined the club in having serious doubts about Shurmur. I will not speak out in conviction against him, dont have that much confidence in my own football acumen to say for certain a coach is the problem, but I will add if the Giants would go on to finish 4-2 with at least 1 win being against the Eagles, I d bring him back.
Please no ridicule about me mentioning 4-2. My pt is not that I think it might happen, but because I dont, it would make a strong case for Shurmur if it did.
Fans only see the games, the pressers, and know very little what makes a coach bad, good or great.
His record is becoming undefendable.
And sure, being an NFL HC is a higher desirable post....Giants are certainly highly visible. A franchise with a 1st class organization ....not sure it automatically considered better then other teams..... Better then Cleveland and Redskins for sure....
If I
Mara is not opposed to admitting a mistake. He has done so with Ben. We have to accept that Mara is not going to admit another mistake so quick. He isn't happy with the losing so there is a possibility that if the losing continues that the coaching staff is gone. But I would expect that at the end of the season, Mara will sit with Shurmur and tell him that Bettcher and other assistants (Hal) need to go. I would not be surprised if the suggestion of Pat relinquishing play-calling duties is made so that Pat can concentrate on the bigger picture of HC duties. Pat can either decide to defend his staff and his responsibilities (consequently complete staff firing) or he will accept the suggestions with turnover on the defensive side of the ball and position coaches.
It might be equivocated with arranging the chairs on the Titanic with no real impact on the result. At which point the following end of season turnover will be complete. I still suspect that DG is still retained as Mara will not want to tear down what DG has started to build.
As fans, we have cherry-picked a short list of "keepers". But if we are advocating for coaching/regime change, why should the new stakeholders be tied to DG's players. Tear the nameplate off the back of the jersey and judge each player's development and performance. Look at DJ, we all have hope that he is our long-term QB. But he has been sacked at an alarming rate for a "mobile" QB. A mobile QB was supposed to mitigate OL shortcomings. That hasn't happened. His fumbling while we hope is corrected is not sustainable for any QB. A new staff may decide that they can work with DJ, but it should be their decision. Having a player forced on the new staff is the sort of dysfunction that we rail against.
So if a new staff/regime is installed, then we should expect another complete overhaul including the possibility of trading DJ, Barkley, et al. That to me doesn't sound like a short path to respectability.
I was sitting at the last Giants Super Bowl in Indy with my 11 year old son....sharing one of the greatest shared experience we have...
I realize...NE was driving to a game. clinching TD and realized how a loss would ruin the whole the whole thing.
starting "praying".....please, please...let the Giants win this game....i do not care if I need to live through 10 years of misery...
....walkers drops a 3rd down pass...which he never does....Manningham catch right in front of us...you know the rest.
But here we are....
Mara is not opposed to admitting a mistake. He has done so with Ben. We have to accept that Mara is not going to admit another mistake so quick. He isn't happy with the losing so there is a possibility that if the losing continues that the coaching staff is gone. But I would expect that at the end of the season, Mara will sit with Shurmur and tell him that Bettcher and other assistants (Hal) need to go. I would not be surprised if the suggestion of Pat relinquishing play-calling duties is made so that Pat can concentrate on the bigger picture of HC duties. Pat can either decide to defend his staff and his responsibilities (consequently complete staff firing) or he will accept the suggestions with turnover on the defensive side of the ball and position coaches.
It might be equivocated with arranging the chairs on the Titanic with no real impact on the result. At which point the following end of season turnover will be complete. I still suspect that DG is still retained as Mara will not want to tear down what DG has started to build.
As fans, we have cherry-picked a short list of "keepers". But if we are advocating for coaching/regime change, why should the new stakeholders be tied to DG's players. Tear the nameplate off the back of the jersey and judge each player's development and performance. Look at DJ, we all have hope that he is our long-term QB. But he has been sacked at an alarming rate for a "mobile" QB. A mobile QB was supposed to mitigate OL shortcomings. That hasn't happened. His fumbling while we hope is corrected is not sustainable for any QB. A new staff may decide that they can work with DJ, but it should be their decision. Having a player forced on the new staff is the sort of dysfunction that we rail against.
So if a new staff/regime is installed, then we should expect another complete overhaul including the possibility of trading DJ, Barkley, et al. That to me doesn't sound like a short path to respectability.
Your opinion Diver: Of Tua, Burrows, Eason, Herbert; which of any would you prefer over Jones.
If Giants hadnt drafted Jones I d be all in on Burrows, but not certain I d take him over Jones.
As to Jones number of sacks, it s not a lack of mobility, but a penchant for holding onto the ball too long trying to make a play downfield
Guess I m way more patient with quarterbacks. I remember Phil Simms first several years. Giants as late as his 4 th season were still waiting for him to come around. There was even talk of drafting Boomer or bringing in Warren Moon from Canada, either of those would have been fine.
But Simms turned out pretty well. He certainly is in the conversation as the greatest Giants quarterback. I know some her speak of Eli in those terms as if there is no doubt, but I m not one of them.
Speaking of Eli, who would have believed he would lead the Giants to two Super Bowl Championships during his first 2 seasons.
I was sitting at the last Giants Super Bowl in Indy with my 11 year old son....sharing one of the greatest shared experience we have...
I realize...NE was driving to a game. clinching TD and realized how a loss would ruin the whole the whole thing.
starting "praying".....please, please...let the Giants win this game....i do not care if I need to live through 10 years of misery...
....walkers drops a 3rd down pass...which he never does....Manningham catch right in front of us...you know the rest.
But here we are....
I think we all share a bit of the karma. I know, personally, that I was content with my deal with the devil. A decade of futility seemed like a small price to pay for 2 of the greatest sports memories in my life. Been a fan for all 4 Lombardi(s), but the last 2 far surpassed the previous 2. Of course, I never thought the "Deal" would be upheld, but here we are.
While we are on the topic of karma, I have to apologize to BBI. But like Eli's re-quoting of Michael Scott's wisdom - "I'm not superstitious, but I am a little 'stitious." I, too, am a little 'stitious. I feel somewhat responsible for Daniel's propensity to fumble. I trolled the Sammy Sycophants last year with his turnover propensity calling him Doll Hands Darnold. I didn't have the foresight that our very own QB of the future would share in ball-security issues. So with that, mea culpa.
I admire your optimism but couldn't disagree more. We stink and I really don't see much (if any) improvement since the Dave and Pat show hit town. I understand all the positive comments regarding continuity but how many times have a GM/Head coach taken over a 3 win team and 2 seasons into their tenure end up with the same or possibly worse record? It should be unacceptable!
Unfortunately, I suspect both Gettleman and Shurmur will be here next year. However, I don't believe either is the right man for his respective position. I'd prefer that we start over ASAP.
2. LT: dont know what to do with Solder though
3. EDGE: we all know this
4. Free safety: maybe JULIAN LOVE can surprise us and be that man. We shall see these next 6 games
5. RT: maybe NICK GATES can be that man. Goodbye Remmers
6. Center: Im so bummed that Halpio, Pulley, or Brown cant rise up
7. TE: Im afraid to say, Evan is much like Sheppard, a china doll. Cant count on him.
8. LB: hopefully Connelly comes back healthy. Carter has to keep improving; Ogletree? Bucannon? Golden ?
As you can see, we still have many concerns, so all this talk about firing people is masking what the real problem is....injuries and disappointing players are plaguing us.
DG has turned the roster over, got us much younger, and created huge cap space. He has missed on some free agents, but the drafts have been promising. I believe he stays for the foreseeable future.
2. LT: dont know what to do with Solder though
3. EDGE: we all know this
4. Free safety: maybe JULIAN LOVE can surprise us and be that man. We shall see these next 6 games
5. RT: maybe NICK GATES can be that man. Goodbye Remmers
6. Center: Im so bummed that Halpio, Pulley, or Brown cant rise up
7. TE: Im afraid to say, Evan is much like Sheppard, a china doll. Cant count on him.
8. LB: hopefully Connelly comes back healthy. Carter has to keep improving; Ogletree? Bucannon? Golden ?
As you can see, we still have many concerns, so all this talk about firing people is masking what the real problem is....injuries and disappointing players are plaguing us.
Aren't disappointing players directly attributable to a weak GM and coaching staff?
Quote:
First and foremost, the dynamic of HC hires is that the GM has a short list that is given to ownership. Mara and Tisch hire the HC. Of course, there is collaboration with the GM, but the decision is Mara/Tisch. This dynamic won't change. It is how they conduct their business.
Mara is not opposed to admitting a mistake. He has done so with Ben. We have to accept that Mara is not going to admit another mistake so quick. He isn't happy with the losing so there is a possibility that if the losing continues that the coaching staff is gone. But I would expect that at the end of the season, Mara will sit with Shurmur and tell him that Bettcher and other assistants (Hal) need to go. I would not be surprised if the suggestion of Pat relinquishing play-calling duties is made so that Pat can concentrate on the bigger picture of HC duties. Pat can either decide to defend his staff and his responsibilities (consequently complete staff firing) or he will accept the suggestions with turnover on the defensive side of the ball and position coaches.
It might be equivocated with arranging the chairs on the Titanic with no real impact on the result. At which point the following end of season turnover will be complete. I still suspect that DG is still retained as Mara will not want to tear down what DG has started to build.
As fans, we have cherry-picked a short list of "keepers". But if we are advocating for coaching/regime change, why should the new stakeholders be tied to DG's players. Tear the nameplate off the back of the jersey and judge each player's development and performance. Look at DJ, we all have hope that he is our long-term QB. But he has been sacked at an alarming rate for a "mobile" QB. A mobile QB was supposed to mitigate OL shortcomings. That hasn't happened. His fumbling while we hope is corrected is not sustainable for any QB. A new staff may decide that they can work with DJ, but it should be their decision. Having a player forced on the new staff is the sort of dysfunction that we rail against.
So if a new staff/regime is installed, then we should expect another complete overhaul including the possibility of trading DJ, Barkley, et al. That to me doesn't sound like a short path to respectability.
Your opinion Diver: Of Tua, Burrows, Eason, Herbert; which of any would you prefer over Jones.
If Giants hadnt drafted Jones I d be all in on Burrows, but not certain I d take him over Jones.
As to Jones number of sacks, it s not a lack of mobility, but a penchant for holding onto the ball too long trying to make a play downfield
Guess I m way more patient with quarterbacks. I remember Phil Simms first several years. Giants as late as his 4 th season were still waiting for him to come around. There was even talk of drafting Boomer or bringing in Warren Moon from Canada, either of those would have been fine.
But Simms turned out pretty well. He certainly is in the conversation as the greatest Giants quarterback. I know some her speak of Eli in those terms as if there is no doubt, but I m not one of them.
Speaking of Eli, who would have believed he would lead the Giants to two Super Bowl Championships during his first 2 seasons.
I agree with the overall premise that patience needs to be afforded to rookie QBs, and that leads me to the idea that stability at least at HC is the likely route. Fans were ready to run Eli and Coughlin out of town, and then magic happened. The problem with comparing different eras is that QBs today are better prepared to succeed than Simms' era. QBs today are expected to experience some growing pains, but they also need to have success early. Look at Chicago. A year ago, the thought was that Mitch would continue to develop. Now, he is straight trash with the consideration that they may have to go back to the QB well.
Nowadays, QBs need to perform. With the 5th year option (currently at $24M) due to be elected at the end of the 3rd year, that is a hell of a commitment by a franchise to a player that might not be in the long-term plans. People complain about the commitment to Eli and the waste of cap resources and how that money should have been used on other players. In a vacuum with no names attached, it is the correct decision. But continuing a commitment to a franchise legend is different than say the Winston/Mariota situations. Both consumed $24M on this year's cap. In the case of Winston, it was an organizational failure to not draft a QB high last year or sign a journeyman like Fitzmagic. Now, they are fortunate that they are still hot garbage so they can pick a QB this year, but they very well could have been thrust into QB hell.
As to who out of the current prospects/Jones to choose from, I still like Jones. His personality, composure, mechanics, are all A+. But it doesn't matter how pretty of a spiral he throws. If he continues to fumble, he can't be an NFL QB.
Overall, it is hard to defend Shurmur's record. But I think he will be given a short leash with selective staff changes. The mandate will be clear - win or you're done. The silver lining is that if we continue with our losing ways, we'll be in contention for Sunshine.
Seems like the roster rabble rousers mostly sleep in, sheeple don't awaken early...?
Or are they all playing golf with 7 AM tee times?
Seems like the roster rabble rousers mostly sleep in, sheeple don't awaken early...?
Or are they all playing golf with 7 AM tee times?
Micky's posts are all tongue in cheek. He was still on the Reese won't be fired train even when obvious. You could probably search the archives and find an instance where Micky said Reese won't be fired after Reese was fired.
Thanks for the clue about Mickey's posting behavior.
starting "praying".....please, please...let the Giants win this game....i do not care if I need to live through 10 years of misery...
....walkers drops a 3rd down pass...which he never does....Manningham catch right in front of us...you know the rest.
But here we are....
Welker dropped the pass on 2nd and 11. Third down pass was incomplete to Branch.
Food for thought, but...
If you jump on Tua or Barrow this year with a top 3 pick, or Trevor Lawrence next year with #1 overall...
You'd be doing the same thing you accused Reese and Gettleman of mistakenly doing.
I'd argue the opposite. I think the focus on his fumbles has been hyperbolic to the point of excluding any other topic with his performance, even in this thread.
Joe Burrow is NOT John Elway, Andrew Luck, or even Trevor Lawrence. It's laughable to think about the QB position as a question mark in the short term or for a new GM and/or head coach.
Unfortunately one of the big problems of finding a good HC is Gettleman.
There is a big concern on how he handled players in Carolina. Players see how others are treated. They do not like his style. Lack of loyalty. This can be perceived as a liability by prospective HCs.
What is in DG's favour is the fact that NYG is one of the premier jobs. But the new HC will still feel handicapped.
All in all DG may have to go to get a top tier HC.
I'd argue the opposite. I think the focus on his fumbles has been hyperbolic to the point of excluding any other topic with his performance, even in this thread.
Joe Burrow is NOT John Elway, Andrew Luck, or even Trevor Lawrence. It's laughable to think about the QB position as a question mark in the short term or for a new GM and/or head coach.
It's really shocking how inept Shemur is, his gameplan is to have DJ8 win the game, when every other coach limits their rookie QBs, like Carroll and Beastmode, Redskins and Alfred Morris, Cards limiting Murray, Baltimore limiting Jackson.
Do the shurms going to have to B
branch out and dig deep into shula or someone or make phone calls and be humble.
Regarding the Getts I do think contemporary D has passed him a little, But I'm more optimistic that he adjusts.
If the arrow isn't pointing up then, tear it down and start over. But wait one more year
This is what is going to happen unless the Giants lose out the rest of the way.
I like our young CB's. They are just...young. There is talent there and I see progress.
Our DL is solid if LW is re-signed. If not the rotation needs another legit contributor. Dex, Hill and Tomlinson were all playing too many snaps before the LW deal and the dropoff after those four is steep.
Our LB's corps is weak: Mayo and Golden are productive vets that represent value. I'd bring them back if their market remains stable. I need to see more of Bucannon before I decide. Carter is a disappointment but on his year 3 rookie deal he probably sticks. I'd cut Ogletree he doesn't warrant his price tag($11.75M 2020 - $3.5M deadcap) and Connelly/Mayo is a better pair. Ximines has a good first step and AA but he needs strength(terrible run defender right now) and is easily fooled out there. Tauaefa may have has some upside the rest are fodder. ***this unit needs an elite edge threat for our defense to thrive***.
So add an ER/OLB and a FS. Re-sign Williams and I believe this defense will be ready to make real improvement next season.
Of course this is a positional/talent evaluation not about the coaching. That's another problem.
Do the shurms going to have to B
branch out and dig deep into shula or someone or make phone calls and be humble.
Regarding the Getts I do think contemporary D has passed him a little, But I'm more optimistic that he adjusts.
I think so. It is very clear that we need to get the ball down field as I do not expect our org to fix the oline to a reasonable level of satisfaction, thus making extended short play drives risky for flags. efficiency in yardage gained per pass wins games. We constantly throw to what the defense provides and that is under the stick. Not good enough. And we can't run the ball either.
Jim fassel;
When your forced to throw beneath the sticks your wrs get killed, which leads to injuries. Passing on -every-3rd and 8 gets the QB killed .
Contrast that with 9ers,falcons ,Ravens or even Vikings;
Vikings ran 10x in a row, zone blocked runs, mainly outside zone runs (shanny's bread and butter when at falcons ) vs our arch rivals the cowboys . Leading to a TD .
That's the polar opposite of what we do.
Shanny's got the killer ap. WCO isn't a match at Giants.
I like our young CB's. They are just...young. There is talent there and I see progress.
Our DL is solid if LW is re-signed. If not the rotation needs another legit contributor. Dex, Hill and Tomlinson were all playing too many snaps before the LW deal and the dropoff after those four is steep.
Our LB's corps is weak: Mayo and Golden are productive vets that represent value. I'd bring them back if their market remains stable. I need to see more of Bucannon before I decide. Carter is a disappointment but on his year 3 rookie deal he probably sticks. I'd cut Ogletree he doesn't warrant his price tag($11.75M 2020 - $3.5M deadcap) and Connelly/Mayo is a better pair. Ximines has a good first step and AA but he needs strength(terrible run defender right now) and is easily fooled out there. Tauaefa may have has some upside the rest are fodder. ***this unit needs an elite edge threat for our defense to thrive***.
So add an ER/OLB and a FS. Re-sign Williams and I believe this defense will be ready to make real improvement next season.
Of course this is a positional/talent evaluation not about the coaching. That's another problem.
Good post Torrag but IMO a legit ILB to replace Ogletree is right up there with stud edge and capable rangy FS.
Plus we might already have the FS on the roster in Love or Ballentine.