Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

comments from some NFL Scouts on Giants progress

Jules : 11/16/2019 5:14 pm
I just read this on Big blue View. it seems to sorta go against the changes advocated on this forum. I agree wholehearted with the scouts and have said as much.

However I don't have to like what is happening but in my view to change anything now is to muddy the water. I have to think that at least one more season and maybe two before real progress as a team will be seen. Building through the draft takes time.

Draft the right players, get them ready and have them get accustomed to the NFL.
If it was easy every team would be vying for a playoff spot.




"Building these things takes time," said one NFL source who has watched the Giants extensively this season. "Everybody wants the quick fix. But that doesn't always happen. And when it does it's not sustainable. You build through several drafts, several years, and it's not always smooth. At least that's the way it is when you do it right."
Another view:

“They’ve built up a nice base of young talent,” said one NFC scout. “They’ve obviously got their QB for the next 10 years. There’s probably no stud player there other than Barkley. They need to find that game-wrecker on defense. But some of these guys are going to be a good supporting cast as they grow.”
Bring on the studs...  
darren in pdx : 11/16/2019 5:24 pm : link
I think the drafting has been good lately, in comparison to Reese's final years. But the coaching feels very poor, regardless of the talent level. FA has been hit and miss, and the misses have hurt, especially on the o-line. They had to stave off a lot of their 'better' players because of cap reasons and they weren't helping in terms of winning anyway. That's why we're here now. Last time the team went through this it was a less painful process because the base of talent was already there for the most part and they brought in a coach that could turn a program around.

But yes, they need to hit the next couple of drafts out of the park to turn it around.
'They need to find that game-wrecker on defense.'  
Torrag : 11/16/2019 5:28 pm : link
I've been on this track for a while now. We're building but we need a difference maker on defense. Someone that demands extra attention both during preparation and on gamedays. It's a priority. Looking at our roster ideally we can acquire an elite edge rusher or playmaking FS.

The only comparable deficiency is at LT. If we can fill one of these with our inevitable Top 5 pick and one in Free Agency we can accelerate the rebuild. If not we're looking at 2021 before we return to competitive respectability. It should be doable.
Agree  
micky : 11/16/2019 5:30 pm : link
Hopefully in 10 seasons we'll start to see the payoff. Hopefully by then begin to compete for division. Patience is a virtue
Look at the 49ers rebuild  
SuperRonJohnson : 11/16/2019 6:15 pm : link
over the last 5 seasons. It doesn't happen overnight.
we could be inline for Chase Young  
larryflower37 : 11/16/2019 6:26 pm : link
which could be the game wreaker on defense we need.
continue to add pieces at LB, Safety, and Online.
either way there are a lot of building blocks in the top 5 of this coming draft
The game wreaker......Chase Young  
George from PA : 11/16/2019 6:34 pm : link
The challenge

The coaches need wins to keep their jobs.

The Giants must be in top 3...or better
Too bad these "foundational" players  
Mr. Bungle : 11/16/2019 6:40 pm : link
have a horrible head coach.

But by all means, give him another shot next year to go 5-11 again. That's in the best interests of the franchise.
RE: Agree  
EricJ : 11/16/2019 6:43 pm : link
In comment 14681106 micky said:
Quote:
Hopefully in 10 seasons we'll start to see the payoff.


LOL !! 10 years??

ok then, for the next 9 years I am going to run fishing charters on Sunday. See you guys in 2029
If the Giants draft Chase Young  
Jay on the Island : 11/16/2019 7:10 pm : link
Add an OT and C in free agency and another OT in round 2 plus fill a couple of holes at ILB, FS, and WR then I think this team could turn around quickly with a new coaching staff.
"If it was easy every team would be vying for a playoff spot."  
jogo1 : 11/16/2019 7:18 pm : link
It's true that not every team is vying for a playoff spot, but if you look at the standings today, two thirds of them are. The Giants just happen to be in that bottom third on a yearly basis.
The problem is....  
Tesla : 11/16/2019 8:11 pm : link
there is no evidence that we are improving. In fact, we are very likely to be worse this year than last year....despite an extremely soft schedule.
RE: we could be inline for Chase Young  
FStubbs : 11/16/2019 8:16 pm : link
In comment 14681127 larryflower37 said:
Quote:
which could be the game wreaker on defense we need.
continue to add pieces at LB, Safety, and Online.
either way there are a lot of building blocks in the top 5 of this coming draft


We'd need to somehow be worse than Washington to get to #2 - and even then that might not be enough if the Bengals still like their QBs.
These are the "scouts" comments?  
giantstock : 11/16/2019 8:37 pm : link
And when some "scouts" say for example say that some moves were bad moves, then these were "media" or "sheep" comments?
There is no re-build and no discernible progress..  
M.S. : 11/17/2019 5:24 am : link

... until this coaching staff is replaced. Starting with Pat Shurmur.
I wonder  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/17/2019 6:17 am : link
which Giants scout made these comments.
RE: The problem is....  
giants#1 : 11/17/2019 7:17 am : link
In comment 14681175 Tesla said:
Quote:
there is no evidence that we are improving. In fact, we are very likely to be worse this year than last year....despite an extremely soft schedule.


Rookie QBs on bad teams rarely have success as measured in W/Ls.

The few rookie QBs that were successful typically had great supporting casts.

So I guess Gettleman did wind up speaking to the media  
Jimmy Googs : 11/17/2019 8:41 am : link
during the bye week afterall...
"They've obviously got their QB for the next 10 years"  
Go Terps : 11/17/2019 8:55 am : link
This is such flawed, archaic thinking. Jones has started 8 games and won only 2 of them. How can anyone make this type of statement?

I can't stand the idea that the QB position should just be bequeathed to a guy for X years. Every player on the roster should be fighting for their job every year...a good GM should constantly be searching to improve upon his players, and making them earn their jobs every season.
RE:  
BigBlueShock : 11/17/2019 9:06 am : link
In comment 14681395 Go Terps said:
Quote:
This is such flawed, archaic thinking. Jones has started 8 games and won only 2 of them. How can anyone make this type of statement?

I can't stand the idea that the QB position should just be bequeathed to a guy for X years. Every player on the roster should be fighting for their job every year...a good GM should constantly be searching to improve upon his players, and making them earn their jobs every season.

How many “good GMs” are constantly drafting QBs to fight for the job of their established QBs? I’m not saying Jones is established yet, but since you’ve brought this up several times now, who are all these great GMs doing this?

For a guy that is absolutely obsessed with resource allocation, it is mind numbing that you think drafting a QB with high draft picks every season is a good idea just so you can say the QB position wasn’t “bequeathed”. If the QB sucks, he’ll be replaced.
Ron Wolf is the first guy that pops to mind  
Go Terps : 11/17/2019 9:09 am : link
He said you should be drafting quarterbacks every year. If you have a structure that develops them well they can appreciate hugely as assets.
And who are you to tell me I'm saying something mind numbing?  
Go Terps : 11/17/2019 9:11 am : link
You've been aggressively wrong on more shit than I would bother to keep track of.
Terps...  
bw in dc : 11/17/2019 9:22 am : link
is right.

It doesn’t have to be a high pick, but a QB should be selected every year. Or at a minimum signing one that wasn’t drafted.

Now, I like stability at the position. So I’m less about the competition aspect and more about developing numerous assets at the QB slot. This not only creates much needed depth, but also trade assets.
RE: Ron Wolf is the first guy that pops to mind  
BigBlueShock : 11/17/2019 9:23 am : link
In comment 14681406 Go Terps said:
Quote:
He said you should be drafting quarterbacks every year. If you have a structure that develops them well they can appreciate hugely as assets.

Well drafting one every year and drafting them to compete for the starting job as you’re suggesting are two completely different things. Wolf never drafted a QB higher than the 4th round (Aaron Brooks) with the Packers. The rest were even lower. He wasn’t drafting them to threaten Favres job. Favre was “bequeathed”. He drafted them to compete as backups and to hopefully turn them into assets down the road. That’s smart. But it had nothing to do with making Favre uncomfortable and compete for his job
RE: Terps...  
BigBlueShock : 11/17/2019 9:27 am : link
In comment 14681419 bw in dc said:
Quote:
is right.

It doesn’t have to be a high pick, but a QB should be selected every year. Or at a minimum signing one that wasn’t drafted.

Now, I like stability at the position. So I’m less about the competition aspect and more about developing numerous assets at the QB slot. This not only creates much needed depth, but also trade assets.

This I agree with. But that’s not what Terps is suggesting...
...  
christian : 11/17/2019 9:43 am : link
The reality is Gettleman has drafted four first round picks in 2 offseasons. He's then had a 2nd, and 4 3rds.

He decided to purge the roster of virtually all veteran talent and absorb steep dead money.

He's had the equivalent of at least another offseason's worth of resources to invest in this team.

After another offseason, this team must be a lot better.

If a GM cannot build a winner after 3 offseasons with 5 1st round picks (3 in the top 10), he sucks.

UDFA QB  
fkap : 11/17/2019 10:11 am : link
no harm trying one out every year.
spending draft capital on one frequently when you have a good starter? ummm, NO. Most of them picked past the first round don't amount to much. Once in a while you see one turn into a net positive draft pick trade. Usually it's a Webb/Nassib/Lauletta situation.

Now, IF you have a solid team, you may want to explore the model of spending moderately on an average QB, either through a sporadic, strategic, draft or a cast off second tier vet. I would do this over spending huge bucks re-signing an average QB, but if you find a stud you keep him and spend your draft capital on maintaining a solid team.
Way too early  
fkap : 11/17/2019 10:19 am : link
to call the youngsters a solid core.
Last year's draft class stalled in progression, and too early to say on this year's.

There's potential, but until it is realized it's just an unhatched egg.

When the team (especially D) starts looking like something less than soggy oatmeal you can start admiring the rebuild. It doesn't have to be show up in the W-L column, but it does need to be reflected on the field. 2 years in, we're pinning our hopes of winning on playing other laughing stocks, and we're losing to them.
I'd like to see signs of improvement --any at all  
UberAlias : 11/17/2019 10:22 am : link
--before we pop the cork celebrating the talent. Two of the most pick rich drafts in team history and two full FA periods later and we still remain among the worst teams in the league. At some point, talent still has to perform before getting credit, doesn't it?
Talent has yet to improve the Oline or the Defense  
UberAlias : 11/17/2019 10:25 am : link
Leaving us right where we started. But keep preaching patience. We can be like the Cowboys and rave about all our talent which never has to deliver.
RE: If the Giants draft Chase Young  
lecky : 11/17/2019 10:33 am : link
In comment 14681149 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
Add an OT and C in free agency and another OT in round 2 plus fill a couple of holes at ILB, FS, and WR then I think this team could turn around quickly with a new coaching staff.


And then the excuse will be they need to play together for some time before they can be good. This team is not a few players away from being competitive.
...  
christian : 11/17/2019 11:32 am : link
I'd like to see some progress in 2 of the key areas Gettleman prioritized in his opening remarks -- running and stopping the run.

He's invested heavily in the running back position and offensive line, and he's invested heavily in the defensive line -- unfortunately the Giants are bottom third rushing team and a bottom of the league run stopping team.
Giants have done a decent to good job  
djm : 11/17/2019 11:50 am : link
In restocking the overall depth of the roster with younger cost controlled talent. We Might not be sure about every single young player here as some guys, Hill and Carter to name a few, haven’t improved, but is a good number of young players that appear to be part of the solution going forward. To me this team needs to find its true identity. It needs to become dominant somewhere. They need an out, to steal a poker term. They need that cheat code that the better teams can utilize in big moments. Dallas has the OL and running game. They also have LBs for days. They basically own the middle of the field. Pats have their insane efficiency and consistency. Niners have their D and a downhill offense. On and on.

Giants need to turn Barkley and the mobility of Jones into the reason why they win games. They have the two stars now they need the mean SOBs to enable them both.

And they need that fast moving maniac that every good defense needs.
like what Gettleman has done in some areas  
bc4life : 11/17/2019 11:53 am : link
especially DL and secondary. Although a reasonable question can be asked about whether Williams was the biggest need.

Biggest issue on defense is the LB corps. Need about 6 decent LBs to run the 3-4. Giants never seemed to be able to find 3, when they had the 4-3. One of our most promising LBs was Ryan Connelly - a 5th round rookie. That should indicate how shallow the talent is at that position. This does not mean that they have no talent - but what they need is the "game wrecker" - difference maker at LB. One of those will significantly increase the sum of the other parts.

On offense. Shurmur has repeatedly talked about having a run game to establish the play action. If this team does not field a good run blocking team - we can expect more of the same. Zeitler and Hernandez and solid core to build on. Solder has been disappointing especially at that price tag. And, I suspect Remmers' back issues never completely went away, and at his age - probably won't. So, it is up to DG to find at least one starting OT, preferably two. And, improve the run game. Couple things may help that - upgrade TE & FB blocking.

RE: a coaching change - if things don't get better, at a minimum - this will be PS's last year.
Hill has actually been fine  
djm : 11/17/2019 11:54 am : link
He’s a 3rd round pick he appears to be a solid run stuffing DT. Carter might only be a decent rotational guy but we can live with that too. Defense needs star power but depth is looking up.
Carter is a decent player  
bc4life : 11/17/2019 11:56 am : link
But he is no game wrecker.
XMan is a decent rookie  
bc4life : 11/17/2019 11:58 am : link
But he seems pretty clueless out there at times. I think he just has to learn and gain more experience.

Front 7 - with exception of Ogletree all 1st and 2nd year players
I don’t want to defend too much  
djm : 11/17/2019 12:00 pm : link
But if you get dramatically younger on D it might not be fair to judge things in terms of wins losses or even statistically after one year.

If the giants were all in financially from 2018-2019 that would be one thing. They got cheaper and younger. Doesn’t mean this shit will be groovy in another year but it doesn’t mean it’s doomed to fail simply because “they are worse” in 2019. Plus, I’m not sure they are worse than last year, but the roster is younger, especially on D.

We knew going in there would be these growing pains  
Sneakers O'toole : 11/17/2019 12:06 pm : link
The disconnect is with the expectations of the fans. Not surprising league people see it differently.
RE: ...  
jcn56 : 11/17/2019 12:56 pm : link
In comment 14681502 christian said:
Quote:
I'd like to see some progress in 2 of the key areas Gettleman prioritized in his opening remarks -- running and stopping the run.

He's invested heavily in the running back position and offensive line, and he's invested heavily in the defensive line -- unfortunately the Giants are bottom third rushing team and a bottom of the league run stopping team.


I'd just like to see some progress, period. The only area of improvement so far on this team has been QB play - where we already had a HoF candidate taking snaps.

Overall offensive and defensive unit play? Regression.

Individual units - running game? Backwards, despite a big spend on the OL and a #2 overall at RB. Passing game? Backwards, though some injuries to an already unimpressive WR corps didn't help. At least there's some sign of hope here with Jones and Slayton.

Defense? Backwards. Passing D has been brutal, the defensive line shows absolutely no sign of competent play with only one established pass rusher in Golden who's ona one year show-me contract. Rushing D - where considerable resources have been spent has been exceptionally bad. The team still has no linebackers, despite paying Alec Ogletree good money and trading away a 4th and a 6th to get him. The secondary is young, but not exactly promising - Baker has been terrible, and shows to have some work ethic issues along with his poor play. Peppers came in highly touted and has disappointed to date. There's no credible FS on the roster.

Even STs have been disappointing, with Rosas either injured or taking a big step backward.

The scouts quoted for this article talked about young talent - but left it at that. The players are certainly younger. Whether they're talented or not - their play to date doesn't seem to imply they're any better than what they replaced.
RE:  
Mr. Bungle : 11/17/2019 1:07 pm : link
In comment 14681395 Go Terps said:
Quote:
This is such flawed, archaic thinking. Jones has started 8 games and won only 2 of them. How can anyone make this type of statement?

I can't stand the idea that the QB position should just be bequeathed to a guy for X years. Every player on the roster should be fighting for their job every year...a good GM should constantly be searching to improve upon his players, and making them earn their jobs every season.

This is how teams like the Rams give a guy like Jared Goff $110 million guaranteed. And how the Vikings gave Cousins a fully-guaranteed contract. And the Carr contraact. And the Garoppolo contract. Et al.

It seems like anointing a "franchise quarterback" is more important to teams than winning the Lombardi.
RE: We knew going in there would be these growing pains  
christian : 11/17/2019 1:28 pm : link
In comment 14681528 Sneakers O'toole said:
Quote:
The disconnect is with the expectations of the fans. Not surprising league people see it differently.


For clarity, when would be a fair window in which to expect appreciable improvement?

I've maintained 3 offseasons is a fair measurement of general management.
RE: Terps...  
WillVAB : 11/17/2019 1:45 pm : link
In comment 14681419 bw in dc said:
Quote:
is right.

It doesn’t have to be a high pick, but a QB should be selected every year. Or at a minimum signing one that wasn’t drafted.

Now, I like stability at the position. So I’m less about the competition aspect and more about developing numerous assets at the QB slot. This not only creates much needed depth, but also trade assets.


Like Kyle Lauletta? Davis Webb? Rhett Bomar? Woodson? Lorenzen? Nassib?

That’s a pile of shit and wasted draft picks that could’ve been used on players who could’ve actually helped the team.
RE: 'They need to find that game-wrecker on defense.'  
mrvax : 11/17/2019 1:56 pm : link
In comment 14681104 Torrag said:
Quote:
I've been on this track for a while now. We're building but we need a difference maker on defense. Someone that demands extra attention both during preparation and on gamedays. It's a priority. Looking at our roster ideally we can acquire an elite edge rusher or playmaking FS.

The only comparable deficiency is at LT. If we can fill one of these with our inevitable Top 5 pick and one in Free Agency we can accelerate the rebuild. If not we're looking at 2021 before we return to competitive respectability. It should be doable.


Having a game-wrecker on defense makes a football game so much more fun.
RE: RE: We knew going in there would be these growing pains  
Sneakers O'toole : 11/17/2019 5:54 pm : link
In comment 14681596 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14681528 Sneakers O'toole said:


Quote:


The disconnect is with the expectations of the fans. Not surprising league people see it differently.



For clarity, when would be a fair window in which to expect appreciable improvement?

I've maintained 3 offseasons is a fair measurement of general management.


I feel like things need to start looking up next season. I think at the end of next year if there isn't progress all bets are off.
why is it that Giants fans are always  
Jersey55 : 11/18/2019 10:12 am : link
looking to next season, why can't we fix things without waiting years for results.
yeah... yeah  
cznmike : 11/19/2019 7:55 am : link
Another year, another WTF. We need COACHES first. Offense, OL, DL, Defense, oh yeah, and a head coach that has the ability to handle an NFL organization. Sure, there are weaknesses, every team has them- even the Pats, but even though most people can't name more than 4 players on that entire team, they win. Every year.

I sometimes wonder if the Maras and the Browns owners are directly related.
when the rookie LB went down with the injury  
cjac : 11/19/2019 8:43 am : link
everything changed. That kid was a playmaker and the QB of the defense. 4 games in and he was getting better every week. With him back hopefully next year and adding more pieces, hopefully they can start to turn it around
game-wrecker on defense  
JonC : 11/19/2019 8:53 am : link
is what I've been preaching since JPP got old and fat. NYG defenses of recent vintage have no identity. It's a big part of why they cut bait with the talent from the 2016 team. No leaders, no identity, no real impact on the football field that suggested this unit was ascending and not resting on its laurels.

If I'm building this roster, I'm hoping this player is there at the top of the 2020 draft. Period. There's no blue goose LT expected to be there to cloud the decision either. If they've got a UFA target in mind, go for it.

I'd agree after a third offseason with all the resources pumped into this roster, there should be signs of improvement and ascension to be had.
Back to the Corner