Kreider
Strome (his value will never be higher)
Skjei
Fast
Staal
Smith
Gropp
And may as well see what a team will offer for Lias Andersson since he's never getting any ice-time, but the objective should be to get younger and clear salary. They need to extend DeAngelo and Lemieux in the offseason.
also anak, what are we even gonna get for skjei with that contract? nobody will take it, might as well just see if he can figure it out here
I could see a team taking a chance on him thinking they can turn him around. He's only 25 and has excellent durability. And it's not like he's some sled like Staal. Skjei's best ability is his skating.
They'll wait for Mika to get back and see if they have a run in them before they start the sell off.
Probably, but I don't think the Rangers can make the playoffs. Hell, look at the Metro. Long Island and Washington are en Fuego. Philadelphia has really turned things around. Pittsburgh is doing well without Sindy. Carolina is doing well.
Smith or Staal. I know they have to be paid for one more season,but can they just be waived to give time to younger players.Who should the Rangers have top two D pairs going into the future?
how bad the defense is. I hope Lindy Ruff gets his walking papers soon.
I hope he gets canned before the next game
Yeah, because it’s an easy job to coach a bunch of 21-25 year olds. I don’t see any Larry Robinson’ or Scott Stevens on our defense.
The blame game is so easy for folks on the outside.
And it goes beyond that. Look at Ruff's tenure with Buffalo and Dallas and show me a time when they had solid defensive play.
And then you see Shattenkirk doing well, Pionk doing well, Skjei declining, Trouba not living up to his contract...Best thing you could say about Ruff is the play of Tony D and Adam Fox, but Ruff has shown that he's consistently a horrible defensive coach.
Smith or Staal. I know they have to be paid for one more season,but can they just be waived to give time to younger players.Who should the Rangers have top two D pairs going into the future?
what exactly do you imagine a defensive assistant in the NHL actually does?
do you think a defensive assistant in hockey is like an NFL defensive coordinator (since you made the Bettcher comp), coming up with schemes per opponent, designing blitzes and coverages, etc? - the hockey equivalent of that (obviously)?
I honestly don't know the answer but what I do know about hockey systems are they are cohesive and include the entire on ice unit.
In other words teams have a breakout (all 5 skaters on the ice), they have a neutral zone plan (all 5 skaters on the ice) and an offensive zone attack plan (all 5 skaters on the ice) and then special teams (PP and PK units).
So, do you think Ruff designs/dictates what the D do in these plans or is it the head coaches system?
I have said before I am not a Ruff fan, but I'm not sure people know exactly what his contribution is, I know I don't. And I mentioned before Skjei was already disappointing before Ruff, and Pionk IMO is not playing any differently than he did on the Rangers.
JT Miller is shining though in VAN, who are you blaming for that?
Shattenkirk was healthy scratched in STL before he was traded to WAS, I'm not sure how much Ruff impacted his NYR tenure, if at all.
Anyway my point is we as fans, maybe shouldn't jump to conclusions, doesn't mean Ruff isn't a shitty coach, just that in this case it may not be entirely on him.
Anak, I believe in DQ. I don’t believe in Shurmur. Â
as Ruff being responsible for helping the players figure out their strengths and how they can compensate for their weaknesses. For whatever reason, it seems like Ruff cannot communicate effectively with the players, based on their inability to adapt and improve throughout his tenure. I don't know the nitty gritty of what he does on a daily basis, but a unit this dysfunctional that contains talented players makes me think there's a problem with the coaching.
I think that Shurmur is truly as bad as it gets in ALL phases of being an NFL head coach. Quinn, on the other hand, I love and think he's doing a fantastic job with a very young team and I believe he will end up being respected as one of the best coaches in the NHK. Just my opinion.
But I don’t judge Bettcher based upon these results either. He has NOTHING to work with.
But it’s more fun to assign blame; it makes us feel superior.
That's fine that you believe in Quinn. He's done some good and some bad. For me, the jury is still out on him, but that's not pertinent to his conversation. The discussion is about the deterioration of our defense and penalty kill since Lindy Ruff got here in Vigneault's last year. Ruff was retained due to his head coaching experience. Quinn had a grand total of one year of NHL coaching experience heading into his first year in New York. An experienced guy behind the bench was absolutely imperative for this team and Quinn. Now I'm not sure if he was Quinn's choice or whether he was really hoisted upon Quinn by Gorton and Sather, but the point is that Ruff hasn't done his job well.
We have been bottom 3 in all defensive metrics for going on three straight years under Ruff with an AWFUL penalty kill to boot. Ruff is responsible for the defense and penalty kill. You can say it's a coincidence or it really falls on the head coach, but those are simply inexcusable numbers and it goes to my original question: how/why are you blaming Bettcher for this porous defense and not Shurmur?
Skjei has regressed since his rookie season...that coincided with Ruff's arrival. Coincidence? McDonagh has turned his career around well in Tampa once he left Ruff's system. Coincidence? Shattenkirk and Pionk have produced more offensively in other defensive systems than they have under Ruff. Coincidence?
Look at the chart above and look at this chart:
Every single metric that you can possibly use show that Ruff has been a terrible defensive coach (in nearly every single aspect mind you) for a very long time. Our defense has not been hard to play against for years.
you are being very selective and really just using your opinion.
McDonagh looks like the exact same player to me. Exactly the same. Disappointing.
In fact his first 14 games in TBL he had just 3 points. The prior 49 games with NYR 26 pts (almost a .5 ppg pace) and not to mention he's playing with an offensive juggernaut in TB.
Pionk looks exactly the same.
Skjei regressed (or didn't progress) the year before Ruff got to NY.
DeAngelo was a journeyman borderline bust, he now looks like a budding top 4 D, who gets that credit?
Adam Fox massively outplaying his expectations IMO, who gets credit for that?
Lindgren (who I felt like was a 7th D) is looking like he can play a meaningful top 6 D role. Who gets that credit?
If you're trying to claim Lindy Ruff can ruin Jacob Trouba then you are getting too far out over your skis IMO.
Otherwise it's Staal, Smith (last year and if he plays D this year), and Skjei - and none of them have ever looked good in Quinn's system.
I'm not sold on Quinn yet (I generally like him, though). I am not a Ruff fan at all either, but to pj's point, it's hard to allocate blame. I can't stand the juggling, but I like that Staal's been benched. I'm disappointed in Skjei, but it's possible he just can't handle a heavier workload.
Skjei also isn't as bad as some people are making him seem. It's disappointing he hasn't really progressed, but he doesn't suck. If NYR tried trading him, they'd get some bids for sure.
I'm not sold on Quinn yet (I generally like him, though). I am not a Ruff fan at all either, but to pj's point, it's hard to allocate blame. I can't stand the juggling, but I like that Staal's been benched. I'm disappointed in Skjei, but it's possible he just can't handle a heavier workload.
Staal was benched and then he was reinserted into the lineup. He's out of the lineup now because of that ankle infection surgery
Skjei also isn't as bad as some people are making him seem. It's disappointing he hasn't really progressed, but he doesn't suck. If NYR tried trading him, they'd get some bids for sure.
I agree with this, and it's probably unfair to Skjei.
After his rookie season when he had 40 points in 80 games, playing solid, even sometimes tenacious D I thought he'd be a future star. And he did that playing just over 17 min per game.
I didn't expect that would be his peak and there are probably many reasons for that.
He's fine, just not what I thought he would become.
you are being very selective and really just using your opinion.
McDonagh looks like the exact same player to me. Exactly the same. Disappointing.
In fact his first 14 games in TBL he had just 3 points. The prior 49 games with NYR 26 pts (almost a .5 ppg pace) and not to mention he's playing with an offensive juggernaut in TB.
Pionk looks exactly the same.
Skjei regressed (or didn't progress) the year before Ruff got to NY.
DeAngelo was a journeyman borderline bust, he now looks like a budding top 4 D, who gets that credit?
Adam Fox massively outplaying his expectations IMO, who gets credit for that?
Lindgren (who I felt like was a 7th D) is looking like he can play a meaningful top 6 D role. Who gets that credit?
If you're trying to claim Lindy Ruff can ruin Jacob Trouba then you are getting too far out over your skis IMO.
Otherwise it's Staal, Smith (last year and if he plays D this year), and Skjei - and none of them have ever looked good in Quinn's system.
Disagree on McDonagh. He had more points points last year for the Lightning than he ever had as a Ranger. He also had the highest +/- in his career.
Pionk is on pace to have his best year ever a pro. He's also a + player for the first time in his career, but we'll see if he can sustain that.
Not true on Skjei. Skjei was excellent in 2016-2017 and he's gone downhill ever since. Ruff joined the Rangers in July 2017. Skjei's regression coincides perfectly with Ruff's arrival.
Fair on DeAngelo. I mentioned that earlier. Fox and Lindgren came in highly touted, particularly Fox, so I don't know if the fact that they don't look "out of place" is really a feather in the cap of Ruff. It basically means that they're meeting expectations.
I'm not sold on Quinn yet (I generally like him, though). I am not a Ruff fan at all either, but to pj's point, it's hard to allocate blame. I can't stand the juggling, but I like that Staal's been benched. I'm disappointed in Skjei, but it's possible he just can't handle a heavier workload.
Staal was benched and then he was reinserted into the lineup. He's out of the lineup now because of that ankle infection surgery
True - but he's the first coach of ours to ever bench Staal for poor play. He gets credit for that from me.
I'm not sold on Quinn yet (I generally like him, though). I am not a Ruff fan at all either, but to pj's point, it's hard to allocate blame. I can't stand the juggling, but I like that Staal's been benched. I'm disappointed in Skjei, but it's possible he just can't handle a heavier workload.
Staal was benched and then he was reinserted into the lineup. He's out of the lineup now because of that ankle infection surgery
True - but he's the first coach of ours to ever bench Staal for poor play. He gets credit for that from me.
Yep
Both Pionk and McDonagh are playing on better offensive teams Â
they never should've signed him in the first place; he was less than useless. Not thrilled about Lias going to Hartford but if that's the only way he's going to get ice time, so be it.
they never should've signed him in the first place; he was less than useless. Not thrilled about Lias going to Hartford but if that's the only way he's going to get ice time, so be it.
Ironic thing is he may have better linemates in Hartford than he would in New York
I’m glad he was sent down. Get him 20 minutes a game Â
And Ruff? How the F you run those D groups out there is asinine. He should in fact be fired. I'm not sure what purpose he serves.
Spoiler alert: It was pj.
I've been consistent. I've said all along he should be replaced and it sounds like Quinn already has his guy in place.
More importantly, That is the one thing that I'm sure of that is in fact his job. D pairings and situational playing time.
Holding him responsible for individual player regressions or system failures is a stretch, as I've maintained.
lol, I was actually looking for what I said about Ruff - I think one of our exchanges changed my mind a bit about who to blame and being a bit more cautious. Ruff is an easy target.
1. Seriously not knowing the role or impact of a NHL defensive assistant
2. my own experience once I got to the age where forwards and D split up in practice. the D coach only ever worked on individual skills like clearing the front of the net, take a hit on the dump in/forecheck, maintaining control and getting the puck, shooting through screens/around traffic, blocking shots deep in the zone
3. the head coach was always the one who defined the "system"
4. the defensive coach making the calls on who to put on the ice and when - but in some cases the HC even over rides that.
So, while I never liked Ruff as a head coach, I just felt like fans pushing for Ruff to be fired are scapegoating. For one, some of the people are combining the defensive results for teams where Ruff was the head coach and the Rangers where he is an assistant. How is that consistent? And 2, no one knows how much of an impact Ruff actually has on the game results.
Speaking of Rangers D, K'Andre Miller with a laser from the blue line this weekend. And Joey Keane is tearing up the AHL (SSS, but 12 points in 16 games as a 20 year old). Keane is one of the rare Americans to play Canadian juniors lately. So I don't know a lot about him.
how bad the defense is. I hope Lindy Ruff gets his walking papers soon.
I hope he gets canned before the next game
Yeah, because it’s an easy job to coach a bunch of 21-25 year olds. I don’t see any Larry Robinson’ or Scott Stevens on our defense.
The blame game is so easy for folks on the outside.
We are effectively paying one guy 12 mil a year to play here! (His contract plus the cap hit to ask shattenkirk to leave for the next 4 years) So if what you say is true - we are fucked for a long long time...
I’m taking my son up to Ottawa and Montreal this weekend. In Montreal got tickets in the desjardins club.... pj have you been? Any recommendations? There through Monday - my son is 8 years old.
Was hoping he’d be back by now but not looking good.
Haven’t followed this team that closely — too many long breaks and days off and they’ve generally not looked good either. What’s Mika’s injury? Hope not a concussion - he’s seemed to have a bunch of those unless I’m mixing him up
Whenever you see an assistant coach who by all appearances isn't particularly good at his job surviving a Dolan coaching change blaring red sirens should be going off.
He's getting bombarded now. But has not allowed another. Yet.
Kreider
Strome (his value will never be higher)
Skjei
Fast
Staal
Smith
Gropp
And may as well see what a team will offer for Lias Andersson since he's never getting any ice-time, but the objective should be to get younger and clear salary. They need to extend DeAngelo and Lemieux in the offseason.
I could see a team taking a chance on him thinking they can turn him around. He's only 25 and has excellent durability. And it's not like he's some sled like Staal. Skjei's best ability is his skating.
Probably, but I don't think the Rangers can make the playoffs. Hell, look at the Metro. Long Island and Washington are en Fuego. Philadelphia has really turned things around. Pittsburgh is doing well without Sindy. Carolina is doing well.
I hope he gets canned before the next game
Quote:
how bad the defense is. I hope Lindy Ruff gets his walking papers soon.
I hope he gets canned before the next game
Yeah, because it’s an easy job to coach a bunch of 21-25 year olds. I don’t see any Larry Robinson’ or Scott Stevens on our defense.
The blame game is so easy for folks on the outside.
Quote:
In comment 14681311 NYerInMA said:
Quote:
how bad the defense is. I hope Lindy Ruff gets his walking papers soon.
I hope he gets canned before the next game
Yeah, because it’s an easy job to coach a bunch of 21-25 year olds. I don’t see any Larry Robinson’ or Scott Stevens on our defense.
The blame game is so easy for folks on the outside.
And it goes beyond that. Look at Ruff's tenure with Buffalo and Dallas and show me a time when they had solid defensive play.
And then you see Shattenkirk doing well, Pionk doing well, Skjei declining, Trouba not living up to his contract...Best thing you could say about Ruff is the play of Tony D and Adam Fox, but Ruff has shown that he's consistently a horrible defensive coach.
K'Andre, Trouba, Fox, Hajek/Lindgren/Rykov/Reunanen
Ridiculous, I know.
Well you asked for the top-4. I think the top-2 RHD going forward will be Trouba and Fox.
Ridiculous, I know.
Huh? Where is this coming from? And I suppose you want to keep Bettcher too?
do you think a defensive assistant in hockey is like an NFL defensive coordinator (since you made the Bettcher comp), coming up with schemes per opponent, designing blitzes and coverages, etc? - the hockey equivalent of that (obviously)?
I honestly don't know the answer but what I do know about hockey systems are they are cohesive and include the entire on ice unit.
In other words teams have a breakout (all 5 skaters on the ice), they have a neutral zone plan (all 5 skaters on the ice) and an offensive zone attack plan (all 5 skaters on the ice) and then special teams (PP and PK units).
So, do you think Ruff designs/dictates what the D do in these plans or is it the head coaches system?
I have said before I am not a Ruff fan, but I'm not sure people know exactly what his contribution is, I know I don't. And I mentioned before Skjei was already disappointing before Ruff, and Pionk IMO is not playing any differently than he did on the Rangers.
JT Miller is shining though in VAN, who are you blaming for that?
Shattenkirk was healthy scratched in STL before he was traded to WAS, I'm not sure how much Ruff impacted his NYR tenure, if at all.
Anyway my point is we as fans, maybe shouldn't jump to conclusions, doesn't mean Ruff isn't a shitty coach, just that in this case it may not be entirely on him.
But it’s more fun to assign blame; it makes us feel superior.
It is such a tired phrase and juvenile
It is such a tired phrase and juvenile
Yup, childish.
But it’s more fun to assign blame; it makes us feel superior.
That's fine that you believe in Quinn. He's done some good and some bad. For me, the jury is still out on him, but that's not pertinent to his conversation. The discussion is about the deterioration of our defense and penalty kill since Lindy Ruff got here in Vigneault's last year. Ruff was retained due to his head coaching experience. Quinn had a grand total of one year of NHL coaching experience heading into his first year in New York. An experienced guy behind the bench was absolutely imperative for this team and Quinn. Now I'm not sure if he was Quinn's choice or whether he was really hoisted upon Quinn by Gorton and Sather, but the point is that Ruff hasn't done his job well.
We have been bottom 3 in all defensive metrics for going on three straight years under Ruff with an AWFUL penalty kill to boot. Ruff is responsible for the defense and penalty kill. You can say it's a coincidence or it really falls on the head coach, but those are simply inexcusable numbers and it goes to my original question: how/why are you blaming Bettcher for this porous defense and not Shurmur?
Skjei has regressed since his rookie season...that coincided with Ruff's arrival. Coincidence? McDonagh has turned his career around well in Tampa once he left Ruff's system. Coincidence? Shattenkirk and Pionk have produced more offensively in other defensive systems than they have under Ruff. Coincidence?
Look at the chart above and look at this chart:
Every single metric that you can possibly use show that Ruff has been a terrible defensive coach (in nearly every single aspect mind you) for a very long time. Our defense has not been hard to play against for years.
McDonagh looks like the exact same player to me. Exactly the same. Disappointing.
In fact his first 14 games in TBL he had just 3 points. The prior 49 games with NYR 26 pts (almost a .5 ppg pace) and not to mention he's playing with an offensive juggernaut in TB.
Pionk looks exactly the same.
Skjei regressed (or didn't progress) the year before Ruff got to NY.
DeAngelo was a journeyman borderline bust, he now looks like a budding top 4 D, who gets that credit?
Adam Fox massively outplaying his expectations IMO, who gets credit for that?
Lindgren (who I felt like was a 7th D) is looking like he can play a meaningful top 6 D role. Who gets that credit?
If you're trying to claim Lindy Ruff can ruin Jacob Trouba then you are getting too far out over your skis IMO.
Otherwise it's Staal, Smith (last year and if he plays D this year), and Skjei - and none of them have ever looked good in Quinn's system.
Staal was benched and then he was reinserted into the lineup. He's out of the lineup now because of that ankle infection surgery
I agree with this, and it's probably unfair to Skjei.
After his rookie season when he had 40 points in 80 games, playing solid, even sometimes tenacious D I thought he'd be a future star. And he did that playing just over 17 min per game.
I didn't expect that would be his peak and there are probably many reasons for that.
He's fine, just not what I thought he would become.
McDonagh looks like the exact same player to me. Exactly the same. Disappointing.
In fact his first 14 games in TBL he had just 3 points. The prior 49 games with NYR 26 pts (almost a .5 ppg pace) and not to mention he's playing with an offensive juggernaut in TB.
Pionk looks exactly the same.
Skjei regressed (or didn't progress) the year before Ruff got to NY.
DeAngelo was a journeyman borderline bust, he now looks like a budding top 4 D, who gets that credit?
Adam Fox massively outplaying his expectations IMO, who gets credit for that?
Lindgren (who I felt like was a 7th D) is looking like he can play a meaningful top 6 D role. Who gets that credit?
If you're trying to claim Lindy Ruff can ruin Jacob Trouba then you are getting too far out over your skis IMO.
Otherwise it's Staal, Smith (last year and if he plays D this year), and Skjei - and none of them have ever looked good in Quinn's system.
Disagree on McDonagh. He had more points points last year for the Lightning than he ever had as a Ranger. He also had the highest +/- in his career.
Pionk is on pace to have his best year ever a pro. He's also a + player for the first time in his career, but we'll see if he can sustain that.
Not true on Skjei. Skjei was excellent in 2016-2017 and he's gone downhill ever since. Ruff joined the Rangers in July 2017. Skjei's regression coincides perfectly with Ruff's arrival.
Fair on DeAngelo. I mentioned that earlier. Fox and Lindgren came in highly touted, particularly Fox, so I don't know if the fact that they don't look "out of place" is really a feather in the cap of Ruff. It basically means that they're meeting expectations.
Quote:
I'm not sold on Quinn yet (I generally like him, though). I am not a Ruff fan at all either, but to pj's point, it's hard to allocate blame. I can't stand the juggling, but I like that Staal's been benched. I'm disappointed in Skjei, but it's possible he just can't handle a heavier workload.
Staal was benched and then he was reinserted into the lineup. He's out of the lineup now because of that ankle infection surgery
True - but he's the first coach of ours to ever bench Staal for poor play. He gets credit for that from me.
Quote:
In comment 14681600 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I'm not sold on Quinn yet (I generally like him, though). I am not a Ruff fan at all either, but to pj's point, it's hard to allocate blame. I can't stand the juggling, but I like that Staal's been benched. I'm disappointed in Skjei, but it's possible he just can't handle a heavier workload.
Staal was benched and then he was reinserted into the lineup. He's out of the lineup now because of that ankle infection surgery
True - but he's the first coach of ours to ever bench Staal for poor play. He gets credit for that from me.
Yep
Spoiler alert: It was pj.
Quote:
And Ruff? How the F you run those D groups out there is asinine. He should in fact be fired. I'm not sure what purpose he serves.
Spoiler alert: It was pj.
I've been consistent. I've said all along he should be replaced and it sounds like Quinn already has his guy in place.
More importantly, That is the one thing that I'm sure of that is in fact his job. D pairings and situational playing time.
Holding him responsible for individual player regressions or system failures is a stretch, as I've maintained.
Ironic thing is he may have better linemates in Hartford than he would in New York
Quote:
Who do you guys think said this:
Quote:
And Ruff? How the F you run those D groups out there is asinine. He should in fact be fired. I'm not sure what purpose he serves.
Spoiler alert: It was pj.
I've been consistent. I've said all along he should be replaced and it sounds like Quinn already has his guy in place.
More importantly, That is the one thing that I'm sure of that is in fact his job. D pairings and situational playing time.
Holding him responsible for individual player regressions or system failures is a stretch, as I've maintained.
lol, I was actually looking for what I said about Ruff - I think one of our exchanges changed my mind a bit about who to blame and being a bit more cautious. Ruff is an easy target.
2. my own experience once I got to the age where forwards and D split up in practice. the D coach only ever worked on individual skills like clearing the front of the net, take a hit on the dump in/forecheck, maintaining control and getting the puck, shooting through screens/around traffic, blocking shots deep in the zone
3. the head coach was always the one who defined the "system"
4. the defensive coach making the calls on who to put on the ice and when - but in some cases the HC even over rides that.
So, while I never liked Ruff as a head coach, I just felt like fans pushing for Ruff to be fired are scapegoating. For one, some of the people are combining the defensive results for teams where Ruff was the head coach and the Rangers where he is an assistant. How is that consistent? And 2, no one knows how much of an impact Ruff actually has on the game results.
Speaking of Rangers D, K'Andre Miller with a laser from the blue line this weekend. And Joey Keane is tearing up the AHL (SSS, but 12 points in 16 games as a 20 year old). Keane is one of the rare Americans to play Canadian juniors lately. So I don't know a lot about him.
Quote:
In comment 14681311 NYerInMA said:
Quote:
how bad the defense is. I hope Lindy Ruff gets his walking papers soon.
I hope he gets canned before the next game
Yeah, because it’s an easy job to coach a bunch of 21-25 year olds. I don’t see any Larry Robinson’ or Scott Stevens on our defense.
The blame game is so easy for folks on the outside.
We are effectively paying one guy 12 mil a year to play here! (His contract plus the cap hit to ask shattenkirk to leave for the next 4 years) So if what you say is true - we are fucked for a long long time...
I’m taking my son up to Ottawa and Montreal this weekend. In Montreal got tickets in the desjardins club.... pj have you been? Any recommendations? There through Monday - my son is 8 years old.
Thanks!
Haven’t followed this team that closely — too many long breaks and days off and they’ve generally not looked good either. What’s Mika’s injury? Hope not a concussion - he’s seemed to have a bunch of those unless I’m mixing him up
It's listed only as "upper body", which has fueled speculation that it is in fact a concussion.