I think the Ravens are SB favorites. They are hitting on all cylinders and Jackson is the MVP leader in my book. Ravens have done an amazing job building an offense to meet his skill sets.
Once they get the lead they are very tough. I'm very curious to see them play where they get behind and have to rally around Jackson's arm...
I think the Ravens are SB favorites. They are hitting on all cylinders and Jackson is the MVP leader in my book. Ravens have done an amazing job building an offense to meet his skill sets.
Once they get the lead they are very tough. I'm very curious to see them play where they get behind and have to rally around Jackson's arm...
i don't expect them to win the AFC championship in New England. They need to gain the one game on the Pats. But if they do.. i would agree.
I agree. None of that goes out the window. Personally, I would not build a team around Jackson's skillsets at the NFL level. But it's fun to watch and it's working now for the Ravens. Hope he can stay healthy.
i don't expect them to win the AFC championship in New England. They need to gain the one game on the Pats. But if they do.. i would agree.
1. Baltimore and Harbaugh have a terrific history in New England. Their culture is fearless playing on the road.
2. New England has at least 2 more losses on that schedule. Things can change, but they still can't run the ball and struggle in pass protection. So I think there is a great chance the AFC runs through Baltimore.
RE: He’s been impressive so far and proven me wrong. Â
Why is it more advisable to build around a West coast QB than an athlete like Jackson? In a direct comparison there are numerous disadvantages to the West Coast QB:
- rarer in the college ranks
- steeper learning curve
- more reliant on the pieces around him being good at their jobs
I think if we hired Greg Roman and committed fully to his system we'd win 8+ games in 2020.
You just have to have the courage to commit the way Baltimore has.
Why is it more advisable to build around a West coast QB than an athlete like Jackson? In a direct comparison there are numerous disadvantages to the West Coast QB:
- rarer in the college ranks
- steeper learning curve
- more reliant on the pieces around him being good at their jobs
I think if we hired Greg Roman and committed fully to his system we'd win 8+ games in 2020.
You just have to have the courage to commit the way Baltimore has.
preach it.
so true.
i agree with every word.
Let's go get Greg Roman!!. I bet he could do really well with DJ and his skill set.
Jackson is the best football player so far this year, but not the best QB. That title belongs to Russell Wilson.
With that said, we’re all just waiting til he gets hurt.
And I’d still start a team with Daniel Jones at QB over Jackson.
i meant of the players drafted in 2018/19. Mahomes, Wilson and Rodgers are still top-3 for me.
And i don't think there are any objective observers that would start a team with DJ over Lamar. That's just homerosm..
Disagree. I’d think most teams want their QB to have a longer shelf life than a few years. And you know....be a QB. Not a runner than can throw.
it's a reasonable debate I suppose.. I would like to hear what others think. The thing is Lamar is a great football player, right now. He's the bird in the hand. DJ, at this stage is an unfinished product. We don't know what he is. The odds are that he is unlikely to ever be as great as Lamar is RIGHT NOW. That's the difference. Lamar can win a super bowl - now. And if he wins the super bowl it ends the debate. No? i think most observers would take Lamar. Might pose it in the main board.
doubt you find a person who isn't a Giants fan make the claim they'd start a team with Daniel Jones over Lamar Jackson. And I believe you will find maybe just a handful of Giants fans even make that claim.
What's the downside to Lamar? Injury risk because he runs? I read last year it was the fumbles and he wasn't a very good passer.
I think he's put those fallacies to rest.
Are you going to start a Lamar thread every week? Â
it's a reasonable debate I suppose.. I would like to hear what others think. The thing is Lamar is a great football player, right now. He's the bird in the hand. DJ, at this stage is an unfinished product. We don't know what he is. The odds are that he is unlikely to ever be as great as Lamar is RIGHT NOW. That's the difference. Lamar can win a super bowl - now. And if he wins the super bowl it ends the debate. No? i think most observers would take Lamar. Might pose it in the main board.
Yes. Lamar is a very good to great FB player. But he is still a work in progress, too. He's ok throwing while tremendous running. That needs to turn around. He needs to do better and be more consistent throwing.
Let's not put him in Canton quite yet. RGIII started like a house afire, too.
RE: RE: Are you going to start a Lamar thread every week? Â
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
Well, I wanted him in the second round but the Ravens traded up in front of the Giants to take him. Unfortunately, he's not a Giant and neither are a lot of good players but we don't see all of these threads about them.
it's a reasonable debate I suppose.. I would like to hear what others think. The thing is Lamar is a great football player, right now. He's the bird in the hand. DJ, at this stage is an unfinished product. We don't know what he is. The odds are that he is unlikely to ever be as great as Lamar is RIGHT NOW. That's the difference. Lamar can win a super bowl - now. And if he wins the super bowl it ends the debate. No? i think most observers would take Lamar. Might pose it in the main board.
One of the podcasts had a debate about this recently (might have been The Ringer) where the question was basically this (paraphrasing):
"If you were assured of winning ONE Super Bowl with Lamar Jackson, but only could have him for 8 or 9 years, would you accept those results?"
I believe the Ravens would sign for it.
Would other teams? Maybe not. Harbaugh's belief was to acquire the high talent, see what he does well and maximize. That is not as easy as it would seem.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The dupe OP is almost right. Â
it's a reasonable debate I suppose.. I would like to hear what others think. The thing is Lamar is a great football player, right now. He's the bird in the hand. DJ, at this stage is an unfinished product. We don't know what he is. The odds are that he is unlikely to ever be as great as Lamar is RIGHT NOW. That's the difference. Lamar can win a super bowl - now. And if he wins the super bowl it ends the debate. No? i think most observers would take Lamar. Might pose it in the main board.
One of the podcasts had a debate about this recently (might have been The Ringer) where the question was basically this (paraphrasing):
"If you were assured of winning ONE Super Bowl with Lamar Jackson, but only could have him for 8 or 9 years, would you accept those results?"
I believe the Ravens would sign for it.
Would other teams? Maybe not. Harbaugh's belief was to acquire the high talent, see what he does well and maximize. That is not as easy as it would seem.
one super bowl does justify it, imo.
RE: RE: Are you going to start a Lamar thread every week? Â
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
only one - at most. more likely one every other week. I just want the fan base to "get it". let's clamor for these kinds of players and this kind of approach.
RE: RE: RE: Are you going to start a Lamar thread every week? Â
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
Well, I wanted him in the second round but the Ravens traded up in front of the Giants to take him. Unfortunately, he's not a Giant and neither are a lot of good players but we don't see all of these threads about them.
The Giants were not among him if he fell 2 more picks. Everyone gets to speculate and think DG the genius would have undoubtedly taken LJ but come on, could you ever see the Giants FO being an that unconventional? I wanted him more than anything and wanted to trade up into the mid 1st to get him but I knew the Giants were never going to. It’s just a fact you come to live with rooting for certain franchises— the Giants have always and will always do it “by the book”, at least as long as the owner’s name is Mara.
it's a reasonable debate I suppose.. I would like to hear what others think. The thing is Lamar is a great football player, right now. He's the bird in the hand. DJ, at this stage is an unfinished product. We don't know what he is. The odds are that he is unlikely to ever be as great as Lamar is RIGHT NOW. That's the difference. Lamar can win a super bowl - now. And if he wins the super bowl it ends the debate. No? i think most observers would take Lamar. Might pose it in the main board.
Yes. Lamar is a very good to great FB player. But he is still a work in progress, too. He's ok throwing while tremendous running. That needs to turn around. He needs to do better and be more consistent throwing.
Let's not put him in Canton quite yet. RGIII started like a house afire, too.
He is absolutely better than “okay” throwing the ball. Everyone these days just looks for “arm talent” and whether the ball jumps out of a guys hand a la Mahomes. But the guy has shown more than just flashes of being historically good in terms of accuracy, efficiency, passer rating, QBR, etc. I think he’s had 2 games this year now where he’s had a perfect passer rating of 158.3? I don’t care if he’s only throwing for 200 instead of 300-400 yards, he’s winning games and getting the rest done with his legs. Give me 15/18 for 196 yards and 4 TDs 0 INTs any day over 30/55 for 408 yards 3 TDs 2 INTs. The guy is doing everything asked of him and winning football games what more could you ask for.
Jackson is so productive playing in the Baltimore offense
The problem with evaluating him is that he looks like a RB playing QB Jackson is the most elusive QB to play the position, but, he does not have a strong arm and he has a very funky motion
His release is slow and he is not accurate
He is still successful because he makes plays and extends plays
The Ravens are primarily winning because they have arguably the best defense in football
I would prefer quite a few of the younger QBs to Lamar, including;
Murray, Watson, Mahomes, I don’t know about Jones yet, but, I think that it is close
The question I would ask is how would Jackson have faired playing for the Giants? I fear he would have been injured by now
The Ravens have a good defense in large part due to Jackson and Roman Â
I hope most realize that if LJ were a Giant, he'd have a shitty offensive line in front of him and a shitty head coach. So he'd be exciting to watch...on his way to 5-11.
RE: I guess this is going to be a weekly thread topic. Â
I hope most realize that if LJ were a Giant, he'd have a shitty offensive line in front of him and a shitty head coach. So he'd be exciting to watch...on his way to 5-11.
Name five other players on the Giants team you'd rather have than the Ravens equivalent.
QB Lamar Jackson
RB Mark Ingram II
WR Marquise Brown
WR Miles Boykin
WR Willie Snead IV
TE Mark Andrews
LT Ronnie Stanley
LG Bradley Bozeman
C Matt Skura
RG Marshal Yanda
RT Orlando Brown Jr.
LDE Chris Wormley
NT Michael PierceO
RDE Brandon Williams
WLB Matthew Judon
LILB Patrick Onwuasor
RILB Josh Bynes
SLB Jaylon Ferguson
LCB Marlon Humphrey
SS Chuck Clark
FS Earl Thomas III
RCB Marcus Peters
Jackson is so productive playing in the Baltimore offense
The problem with evaluating him is that he looks like a RB playing QB Jackson is the most elusive QB to play the position, but, he does not have a strong arm and he has a very funky motion
His release is slow and he is not accurate
He is still successful because he makes plays and extends plays
The Ravens are primarily winning because they have arguably the best defense in football
I would prefer quite a few of the younger QBs to Lamar, including;
Murray, Watson, Mahomes, I don’t know about Jones yet, but, I think that it is close
The question I would ask is how would Jackson have faired playing for the Giants? I fear he would have been injured by now
You are way off with this hot-take on the Ravens defense. The Ravens are 15th in defensive yards per game allowed, 14th in points allowed, 8th in rush yards allowed, 20th in pass yards allowed, and 13 in points allowed. If anything they are middle of the pack defensive-wise. Lamar is carrying the team.
RE: RE: RE: Are you going to start a Lamar thread every week? Â
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
only one - at most. more likely one every other week. I just want the fan base to "get it". let's clamor for these kinds of players and this kind of approach.
I get it. You like Jackson. I don’t. I like real QBs. Why is that hard to understand?
Can you bring back your original handle? I feel like it was probably better than this one.
You are way off with this hot-take on the Ravens defense. The Ravens are 15th in defensive yards per game allowed, 14th in points allowed, 8th in rush yards allowed, 20th in pass yards allowed, and 13 in points allowed. If anything they are middle of the pack defensive-wise. Lamar is carrying the team.
You call them middle of the pack, but I struggle to find a single player on that defense that I wouldn't swap starters with on the Giants, outside of maybe Dexter Lawrence
You are way off with this hot-take on the Ravens defense. The Ravens are 15th in defensive yards per game allowed, 14th in points allowed, 8th in rush yards allowed, 20th in pass yards allowed, and 13 in points allowed. If anything they are middle of the pack defensive-wise. Lamar is carrying the team.
You call them middle of the pack, but I struggle to find a single player on that defense that I wouldn't swap starters with on the Giants, outside of maybe Dexter Lawrence
The Giants defense sucks. What does that have to do with this? You can't claim the Ravens are winning because of the defense when they are not. They are putting up points on offense that they have never put up before, and the defense is average to maybe above-average.
The Giants defense sucks. What does that have to do with this? You can't claim the Ravens are winning because of the defense when they are not. They are putting up points on offense that they have never put up before, and the defense is average to maybe above-average.
There's talk on this thread about attributing the Ravens success solely to Lamar Jackson and how Jackson would be a better QB to start a team with than Jones. He is playing great, but his entire team is vastly superior to the Giants team. Outside of the quarterbacks I would take Saquon over Ingram and maybe Lawrence over one of the ends. Otherwise I'd trade the entire team for the Ravens personnel before even getting into discussions about what system we should run, etc.
How many more wins would we have if we had a middle of the pack Â
The Giants defense sucks. What does that have to do with this? You can't claim the Ravens are winning because of the defense when they are not. They are putting up points on offense that they have never put up before, and the defense is average to maybe above-average.
There's talk on this thread about attributing the Ravens success solely to Lamar Jackson and how Jackson would be a better QB to start a team with than Jones. He is playing great, but his entire team is vastly superior to the Giants team. Outside of the quarterbacks I would take Saquon over Ingram and maybe Lawrence over one of the ends. Otherwise I'd trade the entire team for the Ravens personnel before even getting into discussions about what system we should run, etc.
Fair enough. I was really responding the the person who said the Ravens are winning because they have one of the best defenses in the league. They are winning because of the offense and Lamar. I do agree, the Giants roster is really rough right now.
RE: How many more wins would we have if we had a middle of the pack Â
should be permanently pinned to the top of the board so people think twice before laughing at any of Go Terps thoughts.
Anyone making sweeping blanket statements on a qb after one playoff game isn’t worth debating. These same apes killing Jackson were killing Eli in 2005. It’s childish.
Also, terps wasn’t the only one who loved Jackson. Many here were intrigued with his skill set and would have gotten on board with the pick it it occured.
There is a reason why athletic (run first) QBs don’t win many Super Bowls, at least up until now. It’s hard to beat good defenses and good coaching staffs in January unless your qb can read and beat that good defense.
Jackson has clearly proven to be a world beater in the regular season. Book isn’t finished on his career. He’s a fun watch.
Also, terps wasn’t the only one who loved Jackson. Many here were intrigued with his skill set and would have gotten on board with the pick it it occured.
This is true. I found LJax very interesting but couldn't see him fitting in here without having a coaching staff that would be creative and malleable enough to use him.
I said LJax was fortunate to have a coach like Bobby Petrino who could exploit Jax's skill set. Terps said we should then hire Petrino. While nice in theory, that was going to be a non-starter.
Look, all the credit in the world to the Ravens organization for thinking out of the box and, most importantly, executing on their strategy.
And I can tell you the pass protection he is getting is simply out of this world. Maybe part of that protection is due to teams afraid to rush him and wanting to just keep him in the pocket.
I don't know?
But if Daniel Jones had that kind of pocket, he would have 300 - 400 yards passing every week.
Also, terps wasn’t the only one who loved Jackson. Many here were intrigued with his skill set and would have gotten on board with the pick it it occured.
This is true. I found LJax very interesting but couldn't see him fitting in here without having a coaching staff that would be creative and malleable enough to use him.
I said LJax was fortunate to have a coach like Bobby Petrino who could exploit Jax's skill set. Terps said we should then hire Petrino. While nice in theory, that was going to be a non-starter.
Look, all the credit in the world to the Ravens organization for thinking out of the box and, most importantly, executing on their strategy.
The ravens are an excellent organization. Jackson could not have landed in a better spot there with Harbaugh.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Are you going to start a Lamar thread every week? Â
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
Well, I wanted him in the second round but the Ravens traded up in front of the Giants to take him. Unfortunately, he's not a Giant and neither are a lot of good players but we don't see all of these threads about them.
The Giants were not among him if he fell 2 more picks. Everyone gets to speculate and think DG the genius would have undoubtedly taken LJ but come on, could you ever see the Giants FO being an that unconventional? I wanted him more than anything and wanted to trade up into the mid 1st to get him but I knew the Giants were never going to. It’s just a fact you come to live with rooting for certain franchises— the Giants have always and will always do it “by the book”, at least as long as the owner’s name is Mara.
How do you for sure they wouldn't take him? Taking a Heisman winner is "unconventional" when you need a QB?
To see what happens when a team neutralizes the run game of the ravens. We see it all the time in the playoffs, qbs are forced to beat a team and make big throws. We ll have to see whether Jackson can pass that test, he’s certainly worked hard to improve his passing, kudos to him and to ThBe ravens organization, which is one of the better in the sport right now.
All of that being said, I’ve seen this movie before with these types of qbs lighting the league on fire only to be game planned around and/or sustain career altering injuries. Let me see if end differently with Jackson than it did for Vick, RGIII, et al.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The dupe OP is almost right. Â
it's a reasonable debate I suppose.. I would like to hear what others think. The thing is Lamar is a great football player, right now. He's the bird in the hand. DJ, at this stage is an unfinished product. We don't know what he is. The odds are that he is unlikely to ever be as great as Lamar is RIGHT NOW. That's the difference. Lamar can win a super bowl - now. And if he wins the super bowl it ends the debate. No? i think most observers would take Lamar. Might pose it in the main board.
Yes. Lamar is a very good to great FB player. But he is still a work in progress, too. He's ok throwing while tremendous running. That needs to turn around. He needs to do better and be more consistent throwing.
Let's not put him in Canton quite yet. RGIII started like a house afire, too.
I think he's already lasted longer doing this than RG3 did.
Name five other players on the Giants team you'd rather have than the Ravens equivalent.
QB Lamar Jackson
RB Mark Ingram II
WR Marquise Brown
WR Miles Boykin
WR Willie Snead IV
TE Mark Andrews
LT Ronnie Stanley
LG Bradley Bozeman
C Matt Skura
RG Marshal Yanda
RT Orlando Brown Jr.
LDE Chris Wormley
NT Michael PierceO
RDE Brandon Williams
WLB Matthew Judon
LILB Patrick Onwuasor
RILB Josh Bynes
SLB Jaylon Ferguson
LCB Marlon Humphrey
SS Chuck Clark
FS Earl Thomas III
RCB Marcus Peters
This really about sums it up. A healthy Barkley (not the one we currently have) is literally the only guy on this team who without debate starts for Baltimore.
And at the end of the day, that's the indictment of this roster. We are a long way from competing.
Barkley, Golden, Big Dex, and both OGs. Their roster is better top to bottom, but saying they are better at every position isn't true. Shepard > Snead as well (or Slayton). Both are better than him and Boykin.
Barkley, Golden, Big Dex, and both OGs. Their roster is better top to bottom, but saying they are better at every position isn't true. Shepard > Snead as well (or Slayton). Both are better than him and Boykin.
Are you suggesting our Gs are better than Yanda and Bozeman?
You are way off with this hot-take on the Ravens defense. The Ravens are 15th in defensive yards per game allowed, 14th in points allowed, 8th in rush yards allowed, 20th in pass yards allowed, and 13 in points allowed. If anything they are middle of the pack defensive-wise. Lamar is carrying the team.
You call them middle of the pack, but I struggle to find a single player on that defense that I wouldn't swap starters with on the Giants, outside of maybe Dexter Lawrence
All that proves is that the Giants D isn't even in the pack.
And probably an extreme example of why you must have a mobile QB in this league today. Virtually all of the successful QBs have some mobiliry.
The days of just sitting back in the pocket are over. The defensive lines are dominating the offensive lines so the QB needs to be able to make plays outside of the pocket.
Simply having the threat of a QB bootleg helps the inside run game.
because he couldn't compete as a starter without his mobility. If Jackson were to suffer a significant injury, it would be the same.
Guys like Watson, Wentz and Wilson have the ability to be pocket passers. Mahomes is an interesting case to follow - his productivity has been affected by his injury, but he has the arm strength and pocket presence to likely still be a good QB were he to have injuries. I don't think Jackson would.
because he couldn't compete as a starter without his mobility. If Jackson were to suffer a significant injury, it would be the same.
Guys like Watson, Wentz and Wilson have the ability to be pocket passers. Mahomes is an interesting case to follow - his productivity has been affected by his injury, but he has the arm strength and pocket presence to likely still be a good QB were he to have injuries. I don't think Jackson would.
you think maybe Mahomes has an ok arm? Maybe? not bad?
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
only one - at most. more likely one every other week. I just want the fan base to "get it". let's clamor for these kinds of players and this kind of approach.
So, basically you're trolling. Thanks. That's what I figured.
Well yeah, and if Brees wasn't the most accurate NFL QB maybe ever, he wouldn't have been as good as he was. If Peyton couldn't read defenses like he did, he wouldn't have been any good either.
Take away what makes a player and claiming he wouldn't be special isn't breaking news. You can do that for anyone. If Saquon Barkley had Ron Dayne's vision he would just be a musclehead in football pads like Trent Richardson.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Are you going to start a Lamar thread every week? Â
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
only one - at most. more likely one every other week. I just want the fan base to "get it". let's clamor for these kinds of players and this kind of approach.
So, basically you're trolling. Thanks. That's what I figured.
how is posting about a credible mvp candidate who many fans here think is not as good as our guy, trolling? i want us to have a serious conversation about what talent is, where the league is going. I want us to challenge this organization to keep up with the changing NFL.
Well yeah, and if Brees wasn't the most accurate NFL QB maybe ever, he wouldn't have been as good as he was. If Peyton couldn't read defenses like he did, he wouldn't have been any good either.
The implication is that the mobility can be taken away via leg injury, as we have seen with a number of quarterbacks in the last 20 years who expose themselves to nastier hits because of their play style.
Brady suffered a major leg injury and arguably came back better than ever, because he wins from the pocket. Almost every starting quarterback gets hurt, but running quarterbacks are affected more.
Well yeah, and if Brees wasn't the most accurate NFL QB maybe ever, he wouldn't have been as good as he was. If Peyton couldn't read defenses like he did, he wouldn't have been any good either.
The implication is that the mobility can be taken away via leg injury, as we have seen with a number of quarterbacks in the last 20 years who expose themselves to nastier hits because of their play style.
Brady suffered a major leg injury and arguably came back better than ever, because he wins from the pocket. Almost every starting quarterback gets hurt, but running quarterbacks are affected more.
why are you writing off Lamar as a thrower. His throwing has been off the charts statistically. He is throwing MUCH better than Daniel Jones. Period. He is DJ's age. He is only 22 years old. Are you equally critical of Daniel Jones as a thrower? You are only negative about Lamar's potential to get better ion the pocket because he is such a great runner. You people are nuts. He is 22, played what, 16 games in the NFL, and he is a credible MVP candidate.
The fact is, if we was a giant we would be totally over the moon with the young man. But he's not so we prefer Daniel Jones. Sorry, at this stage in their careers, and DJ and Lamar are the SAME age, DJ can't sniff Lamar's jock strap. Admit that and we can have a sensible conversation. Doesn't mean DJ won't one day be great, or one day be better than Lamar. But it's not the case right now, and honestly, it is likely not to happen. Lamar is already great. DJ is still a work in progress.
If Jackson were a Giant, the conversation here would be very different Â
why are you writing off Lamar as a thrower. His throwing has been off the charts statistically. He is throwing MUCH better than Daniel Jones. Period. He is DJ's age. He is only 22 years old. Are you equally critical of Daniel Jones as a thrower? You are only negative about Lamar's potential to get better ion the pocket because he is such a great runner. You people are nuts. He is 22, played what, 16 games in the NFL, and he is a credible MVP candidate.
The fact is, if we was a giant we would be totally over the moon with the young man. But he's not so we prefer Daniel Jones. Sorry, at this stage in their careers, and DJ and Lamar are the SAME age, DJ can't sniff Lamar's jock strap. Admit that and we can have a sensible conversation. Doesn't mean DJ won't one day be great, or one day be better than Lamar. But it's not the case right now, and honestly, it is likely not to happen. Lamar is already great. DJ is still a work in progress.
You must be high. As Greg Cosell said during an interview last week, teams are still trying to figure out the Baltimore offense and 99% of them can't accomplish that in 1 week. All five of Lamar's interceptions in 2019 are to division rivals not named the hapless Bengals, meaning the teams that certainly spend more time trying to dissect the offense have more success against Jackson. In the postseason rematch against the Chargers last season, he was a non-entity most of the game. I'll admit to still being extremely skeptical about Jackson, so it shouldn't be a surprise when I say I need to see more. This is especially true of season-ending rematches versus CLE and BALT. His numbers are terrific, but I think the offense isn't sustainable in the long term or against opponents who see it frequently. But, I could be wrong.
As for Daniel Jones, he led the NFL weeks 8 through 10 in touchdown passes. He threw more TD passes in 3 weeks than Lamar had in his first 8 starts combined. Only three active QBs have more TD passes through their first 8 starts than Jones. He did that with no one resembling Ronnie Stanley or Marshal Yanda on his o-line. He did that in spite of a head coach who's not 1% of John Harbaugh. Shepard isn't playing. Engram isn't healthy. Barkley has played a quarter and a half at full strength in Jones' 8 starts. Tate was suspended for 2 of Jones' starts.
Lamar has played well, but he has a LOT working in his favor. Daniel Jones has little to nothing working in his favor. Yet Darius Slayton has more TD receptions than Odell, Julian Edelman, Julio Jones, DeAndre Hopkins, Travis Kelce, and a bunch of other names. Calm down with the "He's throwing much better than Daniel Jones. Period." nonsense. Why can't "Lamar is playing exceptionally right now" suffice?
comparing RG3 and even Vick to Lamar is an order of magnitude better as a runner than those guys. And he is better than both those guys as a passer.
He is a unicorn. You don't know what you are seeing if you are even watching at all.
Genuinely curious as to how old you are, because not sure if you even remember much of Vick's prime years or if there is recency bias at work here. Lamar Jackson is NOT an order of magnitude better than Vick as a runner (or a thrower, for that matter). Vick could chuck it 45-50 yards on the run with decent accuracy. He also ran a 4.33 40 at the NFL combine. He also ran with exceptional agility and good vision and balance.
Jackson didn't run a 40 at the combine or his pro day. I think Vick is a fair comp for Jackson. They are very similar. They are on the same level as a runner, which is high praise for Jackson. Griffin isn't on the same level as Vick and Jackson. But to say Jackson is "an order of magnitude better than Vick as a runner" is a complete fabrication and ridiculous hyperbole where none is needed. Look up Vick's career highlights if you want, they are on YouTube. Jackson may break Vick's single season rushing record for a QB at 1,039 yards, but he'll do it on significantly more carries, and in a much more offensive-friendly NFL. Vick did it on 123 carries. Jackson is at 788 yards on 115 carries. Stats aside, they are very similar players, but this crowning of Jackson before he's accomplished anything but some regular season stats and some highlight reel runs...it's been done before and what the Falcons (and Eagles, to a lesser degree), got out of it was only that...some great highlights without any postseason success, in a short (prime) window.
We can review their careers in another 10-12 years if you'd like, I'll take Jones or even Josh Allen over Jackson any day, and we'll see how the chips fall. I don't think Jackson is an accurate passer on outside hashmarks on deep and intermediate throws. That was my assessment of him prior to the draft, I haven't seen a ton of him this year but I've seen some, and sometimes his throws are just puzzling still from what I've seen.
Joe Flacco was one of the best playoff quarterbacks in NFL
history. Flacco was 10-5 in 15 post-season games. He holds the record for most road wins by a QB, with 7.
Joe has one of the highest playoff passer ratings. Taking out his first 2 seasons,Flacco had a 92.1 or higher passer rating in 9 of 10 post-season games.He had a touchdown-to-interception ratio of 24-4.
Joe had a debilitating injury that hampered his passing and mobility.
Flacco was an extraordinary playoff QB.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Are you going to start a Lamar thread every week? Â
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
Well, I wanted him in the second round but the Ravens traded up in front of the Giants to take him. Unfortunately, he's not a Giant and neither are a lot of good players but we don't see all of these threads about them.
The Giants were not among him if he fell 2 more picks. Everyone gets to speculate and think DG the genius would have undoubtedly taken LJ but come on, could you ever see the Giants FO being an that unconventional? I wanted him more than anything and wanted to trade up into the mid 1st to get him but I knew the Giants were never going to. It’s just a fact you come to live with rooting for certain franchises— the Giants have always and will always do it “by the book”, at least as long as the owner’s name is Mara.
How do you for sure they wouldn't take him? Taking a Heisman winner is "unconventional" when you need a QB?
In the Giants' case, yes, taking a Lamar Jackson, Heisman trophy winner, would have been unconventional. It's the same way Charlie Casserly said he could "never see the New York Football Giants drafting a 5-9 QB" in Murray. Despite Murray being a Heisman winner. I actually think Murray would have been more likely than Jackson to the Giants, almost no one believed Lamar Jackson could be successful throwing the ball from the pocket which has been what this franchise has most valued in QBs since the beginning of its existence. I don't think I'm alone on this board in thinking that the Giants would have never taken LJ even if given the chance at #34 (which would have been disappointing to see and live with so I'm glad the Ravens took him anyway).
comparing RG3 and even Vick to Lamar is an order of magnitude better as a runner than those guys. And he is better than both those guys as a passer.
He is a unicorn. You don't know what you are seeing if you are even watching at all.
Genuinely curious as to how old you are, because not sure if you even remember much of Vick's prime years or if there is recency bias at work here. Lamar Jackson is NOT an order of magnitude better than Vick as a runner (or a thrower, for that matter). Vick could chuck it 45-50 yards on the run with decent accuracy. He also ran a 4.33 40 at the NFL combine. He also ran with exceptional agility and good vision and balance.
Jackson didn't run a 40 at the combine or his pro day. I think Vick is a fair comp for Jackson. They are very similar. They are on the same level as a runner, which is high praise for Jackson. Griffin isn't on the same level as Vick and Jackson. But to say Jackson is "an order of magnitude better than Vick as a runner" is a complete fabrication and ridiculous hyperbole where none is needed. Look up Vick's career highlights if you want, they are on YouTube. Jackson may break Vick's single season rushing record for a QB at 1,039 yards, but he'll do it on significantly more carries, and in a much more offensive-friendly NFL. Vick did it on 123 carries. Jackson is at 788 yards on 115 carries. Stats aside, they are very similar players, but this crowning of Jackson before he's accomplished anything but some regular season stats and some highlight reel runs...it's been done before and what the Falcons (and Eagles, to a lesser degree), got out of it was only that...some great highlights without any postseason success, in a short (prime) window.
We can review their careers in another 10-12 years if you'd like, I'll take Jones or even Josh Allen over Jackson any day, and we'll see how the chips fall. I don't think Jackson is an accurate passer on outside hashmarks on deep and intermediate throws. That was my assessment of him prior to the draft, I haven't seen a ton of him this year but I've seen some, and sometimes his throws are just puzzling still from what I've seen.
yes an order of magnitude at least. I am probably older than you. I have been watching football since the early 70s. Long enough for you? How long have YOU been watching football?
As a passer there is literally no comparison. Jackson is putting up perfect passing days. Vick always struggled to pass consistently. Burt even as a runner Lamar is surpassing Vick quite handily. As a starter he is almost double Vick's production on a per game basis and he will smash the QB rushing record in his first full season. I would add, Lamar out of the gate is an MVP candidate, at the age of 22. I don't think in his entire career Vick was a serious MVP candidate. Vick was a wilder player than Lamar, less consistent and less productive. It is early but there is right now no comparison between them. The link here compares Vick and Lamar stats - as of Oct 2019. Lamar Jackson isn’t Michael Vick — he’s better - ( New Window )
Vick didn't crack 60% completions until he was 30 years old Â
with the Eagles with 62%. It was the only time he did in his career other than his five game stint in Pittsburgh. Never had a YPA of 8.1 till that season, either. Only topped 18 passing TDs twice, 20 in 2006 with the Falcons and 21 in 2010 with the Eagles.
LJ, at age 22 with 17 starts under his belt, already has 19 TDs in 10 games this season, completing 66% of his passes with a YPA of 8.1. Vick had the better arm, yeah, but LJ is obviously the better passer.
More to the point, the Falcons went to a west coast style offense Â
I thought you were banned, did you cry to get your dupe handle back?
figgy, why do you harass me? We're here to talk football. Unless you are some kind of board cop maybe you should shut your pie hole. Or do you get off on pretending to have some authority because maybe you have none in your actual life..
No just pointing out that you are simply here to troll Â
please help me here. how is anything i am doing is trolling? i am here to talk football on an NGT thread. Who am i badgering? It seems you are badgering me. i think you are the troll in this instance. But maybe I am wrong. Please educate me.
Horrific defenses or not, Jones performed at a level that any reasonable person should find laudable. Doesn't mean we should start getting Jones fitted for a gold jacket, but the idea he's inferior to Jackson as a passer is asinine.
That's a very poor number. I'm encouraged by some things I've seen from him, but it's not like he's having a good year in a vacuum.
Lamar Jackson is at 8.1 YPA...that's an elite number.
I think Jones is a better physical thrower of the football, but Jackson is a better passer. His running ability opens up passing lanes, and vice versa.
Want to help Jones become a better passer? Call 8 planned runs for him per game. Make opponents respect his running ability.
If Shurmur is fired I think we should give Greg Roman serious consideration to be the next head coach. He could do a lot with an athlete like Jones and Barkley in the backfield.
That's a very poor number. I'm encouraged by some things I've seen from him, but it's not like he's having a good year in a vacuum.
Lamar Jackson is at 8.1 YPA...that's an elite number.
I think Jones is a better physical thrower of the football, but Jackson is a better passer. His running ability opens up passing lanes, and vice versa.
Want to help Jones become a better passer? Call 8 planned runs for him per game. Make opponents respect his running ability.
If Shurmur is fired I think we should give Greg Roman serious consideration to be the next head coach. He could do a lot with an athlete like Jones and Barkley in the backfield.
yes.. let's add a master schemer like Greg Roman.. please.
I've said for 6 weeks now the Giants offense should look like Â
- Stop being in the shotgun so much with 3 WRs
- Put QB under center
- FB and TE on the field more often
- Multiple TEs on the field more often
- Using the star RB's speed and athleticism, especially with runs to the edge of the formations
- Play-action passing that allows for using the QB's athleticism to move pocket and adding extra blockers
That's kind of what the offense looked like in the preseason when Jones had a lot of success. Shurmur has decided since the QB move that the Giants need to be in shotgun a ridiculous amount of the time, which lessens the effectiveness of Barkley as a runner and a threat. He's also decided that they need to have 3 WRs on the field a ton when they barely have 1 WR.
to post glowing things about Jackson. It is another thing to just post fanciful bullshit our outright falsehoods:
Quote:
As a passer there is literally no comparison. Jackson is putting up perfect passing days. Vick always struggled to pass consistently. Burt even as a runner Lamar is surpassing Vick quite handily. As a starter he is almost double Vick's production on a per game basis and he will smash the QB rushing record in his first full season. I would add, Lamar out of the gate is an MVP candidate, at the age of 22. I don't think in his entire career Vick was a serious MVP candidate.
There is no comparison to the passer Jackson is?? Are you fucking with us? Putting up perfect passing days? He was 9-20 vs Seattle for 143 yards! He's had three games under 200 yards passing.
And Vick was runner-up for the MVP in 2002 and 2004. Not sure how a player can get votes to be the MVP and not be a candidate - it is the very definition of being one.
We're probably stuck with you trolling the board weekly, but at least stop with the hyperbole and utter bullshit.
And his YPA (7.15) in that one was still better than Jones's has been (6.7).
Measuring Jackson's performance without considering the running aspect and looking at his YPA misses the boat. Baltimore isn't running a WCO focused on short passes and YAC.
NextGen Stats has a metric called Completion Percentage Above Expectation, defined as "A passer’s actual completion percentage compared to their Expected Completion Percentage." Jackson ranks 10th in the NFL in this metric, above the likes of Rodgers, Rivers, Jones, Mahomes, and Brady.
Jackson is passing at 8.1 YPA, has a 19/5 TD/INT ratio, and has 800 yards and 6 TDs rushing. He's on pace for:
For comparison, Barkley rushed for 1307 yds. and 13 TDs last year and everyone here was putting him in the Hall of Fame. Jackson is putting up those numbers in fewer carries while putting up a better statistical passing season than Eli Manning ever had.
"A better statistical passing season than Eli has ever had"???
Eli had 7 seasons over 4000 yards passing, including one with 4,933 yards.
Again - temper the bullshit. Jackson is having an excellent season, but he's not having a better statistical season passing unless you are looking at TD's to INT's.
"A better statistical passing season than Eli has ever had"???
Eli had 7 seasons over 4000 yards passing, including one with 4,933 yards.
Again - temper the bullshit. Jackson is having an excellent season, but he's not having a better statistical season passing unless you are looking at TD's to INT's.
Jackson isn't turning the ball over, and he's getting more bang for his buck on passing plays than Eli ever did in any season except one: 2011. Eli was obviously exceptional that year especially in clutch spots...I think most would say that's his best season. Jackson's year this year compares pretty well to that one. If you want to say they're equivalent, I'm OK with that. Eli's 4th quarter comebacks carried the team that year.
But again: 8.1 YPA and very few turnovers. That's a major reason the Ravens have double digit victories over New England, Seattle, and Houston.
"A better statistical passing season than Eli has ever had"???
Eli had 7 seasons over 4000 yards passing, including one with 4,933 yards.
Again - temper the bullshit. Jackson is having an excellent season, but he's not having a better statistical season passing unless you are looking at TD's to INT's.
Why are you LOL?
LJax's QBR is 77.8. Eli has never sniffed that or the TD/INT ratio Jax is trending to...
to post glowing things about Jackson. It is another thing to just post fanciful bullshit our outright falsehoods:
Quote:
As a passer there is literally no comparison. Jackson is putting up perfect passing days. Vick always struggled to pass consistently. Burt even as a runner Lamar is surpassing Vick quite handily. As a starter he is almost double Vick's production on a per game basis and he will smash the QB rushing record in his first full season. I would add, Lamar out of the gate is an MVP candidate, at the age of 22. I don't think in his entire career Vick was a serious MVP candidate.
There is no comparison to the passer Jackson is?? Are you fucking with us? Putting up perfect passing days? He was 9-20 vs Seattle for 143 yards! He's had three games under 200 yards passing.
And Vick was runner-up for the MVP in 2002 and 2004. Not sure how a player can get votes to be the MVP and not be a candidate - it is the very definition of being one.
We're probably stuck with you trolling the board weekly, but at least stop with the hyperbole and utter bullshit.
i would appreciate it if you responded to me on the merits of my argument and stopped slurring me as a troll. It is not trolling or fanciful to say Vick is not in Lamar's class as a passer. Vick never had a career rate of 80.4. He had one season where he nudged over 100. Lamar is over 105. He has recorded three games higher than Vick ever recorded.
to post glowing things about Jackson. It is another thing to just post fanciful bullshit our outright falsehoods:
Quote:
As a passer there is literally no comparison. Jackson is putting up perfect passing days. Vick always struggled to pass consistently. Burt even as a runner Lamar is surpassing Vick quite handily. As a starter he is almost double Vick's production on a per game basis and he will smash the QB rushing record in his first full season. I would add, Lamar out of the gate is an MVP candidate, at the age of 22. I don't think in his entire career Vick was a serious MVP candidate.
There is no comparison to the passer Jackson is?? Are you fucking with us? Putting up perfect passing days? He was 9-20 vs Seattle for 143 yards! He's had three games under 200 yards passing.
And Vick was runner-up for the MVP in 2002 and 2004. Not sure how a player can get votes to be the MVP and not be a candidate - it is the very definition of being one.
We're probably stuck with you trolling the board weekly, but at least stop with the hyperbole and utter bullshit.
i would appreciate it if you responded to me on the merits of my argument and stopped slurring me as a troll. It is not trolling or fanciful to say Vick is not in Lamar's class as a passer. Vick never had a career rate of 80.4. He had one season where he nudged over 100. Lamar is over 105. He has recorded three games higher than Vick ever recorded.
correction: Vick had a career rate of 80.4. Lamar is presently at 98.0. Vick had only one season in the range.
"As a passer there is no comparison"?? Try to back up that line of complete bullshit.
Well, for starters, Jackson in ten games this year (and just seventeen games into his starting career) is only two touchdowns behind Vick's career high of 21, which he achieved as a 30 year old veteran. He's completing 66% of his passes, which Vick never came close to doing, while throwing for a YPA of 8.1 which equals Vick's career high, a number he never reached in any other season but 2010.
I think those are pretty relevant to the argument that Jackson is a better passer than Vick was.
Jax is trending to a 77.8 QBR. In Vick's best career year, with Philly, he got to 65. And that was his best completion % year at just under 63%. Jax is at 66.3%.
a troll. It isn't a slur. Vick was runner-up for the MVP two different seasons, yet you make it seem like Jackson is a much better QB.
"As a passer there is no comparison"?? Try to back up that line of complete bullshit.
seriously dude, what are you six years old? we're discussing football. i am giving you rational arguments and you are name-calling. let's try not make this place any more of a fever swamp than it already is. And you are incorrect about Vick being runner up twice. I won't hold my breath for a retraction since you seem too proud to admit anything.
That's a very poor number. I'm encouraged by some things I've seen from him, but it's not like he's having a good year in a vacuum.
Lamar Jackson is at 8.1 YPA...that's an elite number.
RG3 led the NFL in YPA as a rookie. As a matter of fact, he averaged 8.1 YPA too. Perhaps it's a function of their offenses as opposed to a statement of their passing skills.
Keep in mind, this is Lamar's first 8 regular season starts. If I included the playoff game instead of week 1 of 2019, he suddenly has only 5 passing TDs in his first 8 starts. So if Jones is a struggling rookie, what did that make Lamar?
Keep in mind, this is Lamar's first 8 regular season starts. If I included the playoff game instead of week 1 of 2019, he suddenly has only 5 passing TDs in his first 8 starts. So if Jones is a struggling rookie, what did that make Lamar?
Since we are parsing stats, how about we compare their last 8 starts and keep in mind these two QBs are the same age. This is why I started this thread. We have a lot of people who seriously think Jones is in the same category as Jackson. He is not. 99% of non-Giants fans know this. I want us to know it as well so we can be OBJECTIVE assessing talent. Might DJ become the better player, possibly but not likely.
You're not going to force people to agree with you. Â
are running a very unusual offense in Baltimore. It's really amazing and interesting the amount of production they are getting from their trio of TEs - Boyle, Andrews, and Hurst. These are big targets who are very difficult to cover in their multiple TE sets.
That 2018 draft was awesome for the Ravens, btw - Jax, Hurst, Andrews, and Brown.
are running a very unusual offense in Baltimore. It's really amazing and interesting the amount of production they are getting from their trio of TEs - Boyle, Andrews, and Hurst. These are big targets who are very difficult to cover in their multiple TE sets.
That 2018 draft was awesome for the Ravens, btw - Jax, Hurst, Andrews, and Brown.
Cosell has described the Raven offense as "low risk but very hard to defend".. They feature 3 TEs in their primary offense and therefore the defense must go big and heavy, and it makes it hard for the D to go edge to edge against speed. It makes Lamar so much more dangerous. It's a speed mismatch.
Since we are parsing stats, how about we compare their last 8 starts and keep in mind these two QBs are the same age. This is why I started this thread. We have a lot of people who seriously think Jones is in the same category as Jackson. He is not. 99% of non-Giants fans know this. I want us to know it as well so we can be OBJECTIVE assessing talent. Might DJ become the better player, possibly but not likely.
If I'm not being "objective" enough for you, look up RG3's first 17 starts and compare them to Lamar Jackson's. I guess they were both football savants.
Just dial it back a bit if possible.
i think Jackson is having a fantastic season.... Â
Over the top is comparing Barkley to Barry Sanders, or Beckham to Jerry Rice...two common sentiments on BBI. Shit I've read people saying Barkley is on his way to Canton.
Britt...if Jackson were doing this shit with the Giants what proclamations would you be making?
Over the top is comparing Barkley to Barry Sanders, or Beckham to Jerry Rice...two common sentiments on BBI. Shit I've read people saying Barkley is on his way to Canton.
Britt...if Jackson were doing this shit with the Giants what proclamations would you be making?
My point was yes, he's having fantastic season. But we've seen this before. Notably, as I implied above, with Cam Newton in 2015 where you were quick to throw water on that love fest, and continue to this day to sum up that season with the gif of him quitting in the Superbowl.
Let the thing play out.
Lamar Jackson has a great team around him. That's awesome and he's doing great. I'm not sure he would be doing that here, for one.
For two, I'm not putting Barkley or Daniel Jones in the HOF, but I like what I see, and I'm cautiously optimistic and excited about their future.
is the Beckham-Rice comparison should give you pause in the way you view Jackson.
Posters did the same thing you're doing - posting stats that showed Beckham favorably to other top WR's. The most receptions and TD's for a player in the stage career he was at.
And what did you do? Shit on it. But when you do it for Jackson, the people doing the same thing you did for Beckham are mocked.
Interesting that you don't even see your own hypocrisy but continually point out others.
Two seasons in and already missing games, already exposed as a liability in pass protection, and only about a year from having to make a decision on paying him? I think it's a disaster.
Jackson isn't Cam. Cam has a clown personality, which is a shame because he was a supreme talent. But there isn't much Cam and Jackson have in common.
be interesting to see what the comments are when Jackson gets hurt.
Let's face it, he plays in a division where every team is pretty dirty (his own included), so it is just a matter of time before he's sidelined.
Because when you take the core group of people praising Jackson, there's a lot of overlap to those criticizing the positional value of RB's and Barkley.
So if Jackson has a good 4 year run and is then impacted by injury or worse, that will highlight that it isn't just the production that's important, it is the health.
Lamar is killing it right now, but is what he doing sustainable? Â
Also I think that YPA and TD/INT are the most telling stats for a QB, usinig YPA for a QB like Lamar is slightly different. You really need to include his rushing stats into his passing stats somehow. Where a pocket passer may dump to the flat for 1/2 yards Lamar will take off, sometimes he picks up big runs sometimes he doesn't. Its really hard to quantify Lamar's play using stats compared to more traditional QBs.
And he's missed zero thus far. That's more than can be said for the running back who was touched by the hand of God, and whose actual influence on a game is nothing next to Jackson's.
You guys sure do pick your spots.
RE: Lamar is killing it right now, but is what he doing sustainable? Â
Also I think that YPA and TD/INT are the most telling stats for a QB, usinig YPA for a QB like Lamar is slightly different. You really need to include his rushing stats into his passing stats somehow. Where a pocket passer may dump to the flat for 1/2 yards Lamar will take off, sometimes he picks up big runs sometimes he doesn't. Its really hard to quantify Lamar's play using stats compared to more traditional QBs.
That is the one of the questions - is it sustainable? If I was a Raven fan I would be holding my breath every time Jax ran. He runs straight up, creating a pretty big target to hit. But he's got this Gumby thing going on and he just bounces back up like he simply fell in a moonwalk.
The other question is obvious - can he transform to a much more conventional pocket passer, who only runs as a last resort, and be effective in that role? Thus, reducing hits at higher rates of speed.
If I'm Ravens Central, I am still looking for a QB in the later round of the draft as insurance.
Ironically enough, that staff has done a very nice job rejuvenating RG3. He's looked very good when he's been called in for relief duty in the prior years. So if Jax were to get hurt, I think RG3 would do a decent job keeping them on the tracks...
I always wonder if we missed a great opportunity two years ago when Harbaugh and Bisciotti seemed to be on shaky ground. I would have seriously considered given up draft picks for Harbaugh. He's a great, great coach...
If I'm the Ravens and Hurts is there in round 2, I'm taking him. I'd probably be drafting an athletic QB every year.
If Hurts is there in round 2, we should seriously consider taking him. That would be first round skills falling into the second round.
Hurts has that thicker, Russell Wilson type body that seems more durable.
Did you see that option play Romans ran two weeks ago with Jax and RG3? Jax rolled out, took off, and then pitched to RG3 who was at tailback. I imagine they have another layer in that play where RG3 takes the pitch behind the LOS, the OL doesn't get downfield, and RG3 throws a strike to someone.
That team has some serious imagination, especially when they go heavy with those 3 headed TE monsters.
should sub him out the moment a game is decided to minimize injury risk. Typically, a QB plays no matter what the score is - that approach needs to be changed the LJaxion plan.
RE: One other thought for LJax is that the Ravens Â
should sub him out the moment a game is decided to minimize injury risk. Typically, a QB plays no matter what the score is - that approach needs to be changed the LJaxion plan.
I wonder if it would make sense to take that a step further. Are there situations where it makes sense to remove your starting quarterback? Say it's third and 20 at your own 25, or even first and goal at the 1...are there situations in a game that has yet to be decided where it makes sense to pull your starter and have the backup in?
RE: Lamar is killing it right now, but is what he doing sustainable? Â
Also I think that YPA and TD/INT are the most telling stats for a QB, usinig YPA for a QB like Lamar is slightly different. You really need to include his rushing stats into his passing stats somehow. Where a pocket passer may dump to the flat for 1/2 yards Lamar will take off, sometimes he picks up big runs sometimes he doesn't. Its really hard to quantify Lamar's play using stats compared to more traditional QBs.
What's harder to see through box scores is that he seems to be picking his moments to run intelligently. He doesn't always run. There are games where he runs it 19 times, and games where me might run it 7 times.
You can also infer from his yards per rush, when he does run, it's because he has an open field. The last three games, his yards per rush were 9, 9, 4, and 8.
Once they get the lead they are very tough. I'm very curious to see them play where they get behind and have to rally around Jackson's arm...
Once they get the lead they are very tough. I'm very curious to see them play where they get behind and have to rally around Jackson's arm...
i don't expect them to win the AFC championship in New England. They need to gain the one game on the Pats. But if they do.. i would agree.
With that said, we’re all just waiting til he gets hurt.
And I’d still start a team with Daniel Jones at QB over Jackson.
i don't expect them to win the AFC championship in New England. They need to gain the one game on the Pats. But if they do.. i would agree.
1. Baltimore and Harbaugh have a terrific history in New England. Their culture is fearless playing on the road.
2. New England has at least 2 more losses on that schedule. Things can change, but they still can't run the ball and struggle in pass protection. So I think there is a great chance the AFC runs through Baltimore.
that was like his eighth start. look at eli's playoff performance v carolina in 2005 after he had a season and a half under his belt.
- rarer in the college ranks
- steeper learning curve
- more reliant on the pieces around him being good at their jobs
I think if we hired Greg Roman and committed fully to his system we'd win 8+ games in 2020.
You just have to have the courage to commit the way Baltimore has.
With that said, we’re all just waiting til he gets hurt.
And I’d still start a team with Daniel Jones at QB over Jackson.
i meant of the players drafted in 2018/19. Mahomes, Wilson and Rodgers are still top-3 for me.
And i don't think there are any objective observers that would start a team with DJ over Lamar. That's just homerosm..
- rarer in the college ranks
- steeper learning curve
- more reliant on the pieces around him being good at their jobs
I think if we hired Greg Roman and committed fully to his system we'd win 8+ games in 2020.
You just have to have the courage to commit the way Baltimore has.
preach it.
so true.
i agree with every word.
Let's go get Greg Roman!!. I bet he could do really well with DJ and his skill set.
Quote:
Jackson is the best football player so far this year, but not the best QB. That title belongs to Russell Wilson.
With that said, we’re all just waiting til he gets hurt.
And I’d still start a team with Daniel Jones at QB over Jackson.
i meant of the players drafted in 2018/19. Mahomes, Wilson and Rodgers are still top-3 for me.
And i don't think there are any objective observers that would start a team with DJ over Lamar. That's just homerosm..
Disagree. I’d think most teams want their QB to have a longer shelf life than a few years. And you know....be a QB. Not a runner than can throw.
Quote:
In comment 14681741 GiantGolfer said:
Quote:
Jackson is the best football player so far this year, but not the best QB. That title belongs to Russell Wilson.
With that said, we’re all just waiting til he gets hurt.
And I’d still start a team with Daniel Jones at QB over Jackson.
i meant of the players drafted in 2018/19. Mahomes, Wilson and Rodgers are still top-3 for me.
And i don't think there are any objective observers that would start a team with DJ over Lamar. That's just homerosm..
Disagree. I’d think most teams want their QB to have a longer shelf life than a few years. And you know....be a QB. Not a runner than can throw.
it's a reasonable debate I suppose.. I would like to hear what others think. The thing is Lamar is a great football player, right now. He's the bird in the hand. DJ, at this stage is an unfinished product. We don't know what he is. The odds are that he is unlikely to ever be as great as Lamar is RIGHT NOW. That's the difference. Lamar can win a super bowl - now. And if he wins the super bowl it ends the debate. No? i think most observers would take Lamar. Might pose it in the main board.
What's the downside to Lamar? Injury risk because he runs? I read last year it was the fumbles and he wasn't a very good passer.
I think he's put those fallacies to rest.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
it's a reasonable debate I suppose.. I would like to hear what others think. The thing is Lamar is a great football player, right now. He's the bird in the hand. DJ, at this stage is an unfinished product. We don't know what he is. The odds are that he is unlikely to ever be as great as Lamar is RIGHT NOW. That's the difference. Lamar can win a super bowl - now. And if he wins the super bowl it ends the debate. No? i think most observers would take Lamar. Might pose it in the main board.
Yes. Lamar is a very good to great FB player. But he is still a work in progress, too. He's ok throwing while tremendous running. That needs to turn around. He needs to do better and be more consistent throwing.
Let's not put him in Canton quite yet. RGIII started like a house afire, too.
Quote:
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
Well, I wanted him in the second round but the Ravens traded up in front of the Giants to take him. Unfortunately, he's not a Giant and neither are a lot of good players but we don't see all of these threads about them.
One of the podcasts had a debate about this recently (might have been The Ringer) where the question was basically this (paraphrasing):
"If you were assured of winning ONE Super Bowl with Lamar Jackson, but only could have him for 8 or 9 years, would you accept those results?"
I believe the Ravens would sign for it.
Would other teams? Maybe not. Harbaugh's belief was to acquire the high talent, see what he does well and maximize. That is not as easy as it would seem.
Quote:
it's a reasonable debate I suppose.. I would like to hear what others think. The thing is Lamar is a great football player, right now. He's the bird in the hand. DJ, at this stage is an unfinished product. We don't know what he is. The odds are that he is unlikely to ever be as great as Lamar is RIGHT NOW. That's the difference. Lamar can win a super bowl - now. And if he wins the super bowl it ends the debate. No? i think most observers would take Lamar. Might pose it in the main board.
One of the podcasts had a debate about this recently (might have been The Ringer) where the question was basically this (paraphrasing):
"If you were assured of winning ONE Super Bowl with Lamar Jackson, but only could have him for 8 or 9 years, would you accept those results?"
I believe the Ravens would sign for it.
Would other teams? Maybe not. Harbaugh's belief was to acquire the high talent, see what he does well and maximize. That is not as easy as it would seem.
one super bowl does justify it, imo.
Quote:
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
only one - at most. more likely one every other week. I just want the fan base to "get it". let's clamor for these kinds of players and this kind of approach.
Quote:
In comment 14681767 Mendenhall64 said:
Quote:
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
Well, I wanted him in the second round but the Ravens traded up in front of the Giants to take him. Unfortunately, he's not a Giant and neither are a lot of good players but we don't see all of these threads about them.
The Giants were not among him if he fell 2 more picks. Everyone gets to speculate and think DG the genius would have undoubtedly taken LJ but come on, could you ever see the Giants FO being an that unconventional? I wanted him more than anything and wanted to trade up into the mid 1st to get him but I knew the Giants were never going to. It’s just a fact you come to live with rooting for certain franchises— the Giants have always and will always do it “by the book”, at least as long as the owner’s name is Mara.
Quote:
it's a reasonable debate I suppose.. I would like to hear what others think. The thing is Lamar is a great football player, right now. He's the bird in the hand. DJ, at this stage is an unfinished product. We don't know what he is. The odds are that he is unlikely to ever be as great as Lamar is RIGHT NOW. That's the difference. Lamar can win a super bowl - now. And if he wins the super bowl it ends the debate. No? i think most observers would take Lamar. Might pose it in the main board.
Yes. Lamar is a very good to great FB player. But he is still a work in progress, too. He's ok throwing while tremendous running. That needs to turn around. He needs to do better and be more consistent throwing.
Let's not put him in Canton quite yet. RGIII started like a house afire, too.
He is absolutely better than “okay” throwing the ball. Everyone these days just looks for “arm talent” and whether the ball jumps out of a guys hand a la Mahomes. But the guy has shown more than just flashes of being historically good in terms of accuracy, efficiency, passer rating, QBR, etc. I think he’s had 2 games this year now where he’s had a perfect passer rating of 158.3? I don’t care if he’s only throwing for 200 instead of 300-400 yards, he’s winning games and getting the rest done with his legs. Give me 15/18 for 196 yards and 4 TDs 0 INTs any day over 30/55 for 408 yards 3 TDs 2 INTs. The guy is doing everything asked of him and winning football games what more could you ask for.
The problem with evaluating him is that he looks like a RB playing QB Jackson is the most elusive QB to play the position, but, he does not have a strong arm and he has a very funky motion
His release is slow and he is not accurate
He is still successful because he makes plays and extends plays
The Ravens are primarily winning because they have arguably the best defense in football
I would prefer quite a few of the younger QBs to Lamar, including;
Murray, Watson, Mahomes, I don’t know about Jones yet, but, I think that it is close
The question I would ask is how would Jackson have faired playing for the Giants? I fear he would have been injured by now
Let's put the anointing oil away until they prove differently.
Like Saquon?
QB Lamar Jackson
RB Mark Ingram II
WR Marquise Brown
WR Miles Boykin
WR Willie Snead IV
TE Mark Andrews
LT Ronnie Stanley
LG Bradley Bozeman
C Matt Skura
RG Marshal Yanda
RT Orlando Brown Jr.
LDE Chris Wormley
NT Michael PierceO
RDE Brandon Williams
WLB Matthew Judon
LILB Patrick Onwuasor
RILB Josh Bynes
SLB Jaylon Ferguson
LCB Marlon Humphrey
SS Chuck Clark
FS Earl Thomas III
RCB Marcus Peters
Not to mention I'd swap any coach for the Ravens equivalent.
Quote:
Not to mention I'd swap any coach for the Ravens equivalent.
indeed
The problem with evaluating him is that he looks like a RB playing QB Jackson is the most elusive QB to play the position, but, he does not have a strong arm and he has a very funky motion
His release is slow and he is not accurate
He is still successful because he makes plays and extends plays
The Ravens are primarily winning because they have arguably the best defense in football
I would prefer quite a few of the younger QBs to Lamar, including;
Murray, Watson, Mahomes, I don’t know about Jones yet, but, I think that it is close
The question I would ask is how would Jackson have faired playing for the Giants? I fear he would have been injured by now
You are way off with this hot-take on the Ravens defense. The Ravens are 15th in defensive yards per game allowed, 14th in points allowed, 8th in rush yards allowed, 20th in pass yards allowed, and 13 in points allowed. If anything they are middle of the pack defensive-wise. Lamar is carrying the team.
Quote:
In comment 14681767 Mendenhall64 said:
Quote:
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
only one - at most. more likely one every other week. I just want the fan base to "get it". let's clamor for these kinds of players and this kind of approach.
I get it. You like Jackson. I don’t. I like real QBs. Why is that hard to understand?
Can you bring back your original handle? I feel like it was probably better than this one.
You call them middle of the pack, but I struggle to find a single player on that defense that I wouldn't swap starters with on the Giants, outside of maybe Dexter Lawrence
Quote:
You are way off with this hot-take on the Ravens defense. The Ravens are 15th in defensive yards per game allowed, 14th in points allowed, 8th in rush yards allowed, 20th in pass yards allowed, and 13 in points allowed. If anything they are middle of the pack defensive-wise. Lamar is carrying the team.
You call them middle of the pack, but I struggle to find a single player on that defense that I wouldn't swap starters with on the Giants, outside of maybe Dexter Lawrence
The Giants defense sucks. What does that have to do with this? You can't claim the Ravens are winning because of the defense when they are not. They are putting up points on offense that they have never put up before, and the defense is average to maybe above-average.
There's talk on this thread about attributing the Ravens success solely to Lamar Jackson and how Jackson would be a better QB to start a team with than Jones. He is playing great, but his entire team is vastly superior to the Giants team. Outside of the quarterbacks I would take Saquon over Ingram and maybe Lawrence over one of the ends. Otherwise I'd trade the entire team for the Ravens personnel before even getting into discussions about what system we should run, etc.
Quote:
The Giants defense sucks. What does that have to do with this? You can't claim the Ravens are winning because of the defense when they are not. They are putting up points on offense that they have never put up before, and the defense is average to maybe above-average.
There's talk on this thread about attributing the Ravens success solely to Lamar Jackson and how Jackson would be a better QB to start a team with than Jones. He is playing great, but his entire team is vastly superior to the Giants team. Outside of the quarterbacks I would take Saquon over Ingram and maybe Lawrence over one of the ends. Otherwise I'd trade the entire team for the Ravens personnel before even getting into discussions about what system we should run, etc.
Fair enough. I was really responding the the person who said the Ravens are winning because they have one of the best defenses in the league. They are winning because of the offense and Lamar. I do agree, the Giants roster is really rough right now.
At this point I would be happy with an average O line and an average defense.
Quote:
In comment 14681741 GiantGolfer said:
Quote:
Jackson is the best football player so far this year, but not the best QB. That title belongs to Russell Wilson.
With that said, we’re all just waiting til he gets hurt.
And I’d still start a team with Daniel Jones at QB over Jackson.
i meant of the players drafted in 2018/19. Mahomes, Wilson and Rodgers are still top-3 for me.
And i don't think there are any objective observers that would start a team with DJ over Lamar. That's just homerosm..
Disagree. I’d think most teams want their QB to have a longer shelf life than a few years. And you know....be a QB. Not a runner than can throw.
That's only true because most teams aren't very good and aren't run very well.
Anyone making sweeping blanket statements on a qb after one playoff game isn’t worth debating. These same apes killing Jackson were killing Eli in 2005. It’s childish.
Also, terps wasn’t the only one who loved Jackson. Many here were intrigued with his skill set and would have gotten on board with the pick it it occured.
Jackson has clearly proven to be a world beater in the regular season. Book isn’t finished on his career. He’s a fun watch.
Also, terps wasn’t the only one who loved Jackson. Many here were intrigued with his skill set and would have gotten on board with the pick it it occured.
This is true. I found LJax very interesting but couldn't see him fitting in here without having a coaching staff that would be creative and malleable enough to use him.
I said LJax was fortunate to have a coach like Bobby Petrino who could exploit Jax's skill set. Terps said we should then hire Petrino. While nice in theory, that was going to be a non-starter.
Look, all the credit in the world to the Ravens organization for thinking out of the box and, most importantly, executing on their strategy.
...clearly a great player.
And I can tell you the pass protection he is getting is simply out of this world. Maybe part of that protection is due to teams afraid to rush him and wanting to just keep him in the pocket.
I don't know?
But if Daniel Jones had that kind of pocket, he would have 300 - 400 yards passing every week.
Quote:
Also, terps wasn’t the only one who loved Jackson. Many here were intrigued with his skill set and would have gotten on board with the pick it it occured.
This is true. I found LJax very interesting but couldn't see him fitting in here without having a coaching staff that would be creative and malleable enough to use him.
I said LJax was fortunate to have a coach like Bobby Petrino who could exploit Jax's skill set. Terps said we should then hire Petrino. While nice in theory, that was going to be a non-starter.
Look, all the credit in the world to the Ravens organization for thinking out of the box and, most importantly, executing on their strategy.
The ravens are an excellent organization. Jackson could not have landed in a better spot there with Harbaugh.
Quote:
In comment 14681775 smshmth8690 said:
Quote:
In comment 14681767 Mendenhall64 said:
Quote:
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
Well, I wanted him in the second round but the Ravens traded up in front of the Giants to take him. Unfortunately, he's not a Giant and neither are a lot of good players but we don't see all of these threads about them.
The Giants were not among him if he fell 2 more picks. Everyone gets to speculate and think DG the genius would have undoubtedly taken LJ but come on, could you ever see the Giants FO being an that unconventional? I wanted him more than anything and wanted to trade up into the mid 1st to get him but I knew the Giants were never going to. It’s just a fact you come to live with rooting for certain franchises— the Giants have always and will always do it “by the book”, at least as long as the owner’s name is Mara.
How do you for sure they wouldn't take him? Taking a Heisman winner is "unconventional" when you need a QB?
Think RG3. Quick skinny kid hits moving object. Thee End
All of that being said, I’ve seen this movie before with these types of qbs lighting the league on fire only to be game planned around and/or sustain career altering injuries. Let me see if end differently with Jackson than it did for Vick, RGIII, et al.
Quote:
it's a reasonable debate I suppose.. I would like to hear what others think. The thing is Lamar is a great football player, right now. He's the bird in the hand. DJ, at this stage is an unfinished product. We don't know what he is. The odds are that he is unlikely to ever be as great as Lamar is RIGHT NOW. That's the difference. Lamar can win a super bowl - now. And if he wins the super bowl it ends the debate. No? i think most observers would take Lamar. Might pose it in the main board.
Yes. Lamar is a very good to great FB player. But he is still a work in progress, too. He's ok throwing while tremendous running. That needs to turn around. He needs to do better and be more consistent throwing.
Let's not put him in Canton quite yet. RGIII started like a house afire, too.
I think he's already lasted longer doing this than RG3 did.
For the record, RG3 is his backup.
QB Lamar Jackson
RB Mark Ingram II
WR Marquise Brown
WR Miles Boykin
WR Willie Snead IV
TE Mark Andrews
LT Ronnie Stanley
LG Bradley Bozeman
C Matt Skura
RG Marshal Yanda
RT Orlando Brown Jr.
LDE Chris Wormley
NT Michael PierceO
RDE Brandon Williams
WLB Matthew Judon
LILB Patrick Onwuasor
RILB Josh Bynes
SLB Jaylon Ferguson
LCB Marlon Humphrey
SS Chuck Clark
FS Earl Thomas III
RCB Marcus Peters
This really about sums it up. A healthy Barkley (not the one we currently have) is literally the only guy on this team who without debate starts for Baltimore.
And at the end of the day, that's the indictment of this roster. We are a long way from competing.
Are you suggesting our Gs are better than Yanda and Bozeman?
Quote:
You are way off with this hot-take on the Ravens defense. The Ravens are 15th in defensive yards per game allowed, 14th in points allowed, 8th in rush yards allowed, 20th in pass yards allowed, and 13 in points allowed. If anything they are middle of the pack defensive-wise. Lamar is carrying the team.
You call them middle of the pack, but I struggle to find a single player on that defense that I wouldn't swap starters with on the Giants, outside of maybe Dexter Lawrence
All that proves is that the Giants D isn't even in the pack.
The days of just sitting back in the pocket are over. The defensive lines are dominating the offensive lines so the QB needs to be able to make plays outside of the pocket.
Simply having the threat of a QB bootleg helps the inside run game.
Think RG3. Quick skinny kid hits moving object. Thee End
Lamar is 3 inches shorter and only 8 pounds lighter than Jones. He’s not skinny.
RG3 weighed more than Eli and Jones while being shorter
Never? RG3 and Jackson are fairly close statistically in their first 17 starts.
Guys like Watson, Wentz and Wilson have the ability to be pocket passers. Mahomes is an interesting case to follow - his productivity has been affected by his injury, but he has the arm strength and pocket presence to likely still be a good QB were he to have injuries. I don't think Jackson would.
Guys like Watson, Wentz and Wilson have the ability to be pocket passers. Mahomes is an interesting case to follow - his productivity has been affected by his injury, but he has the arm strength and pocket presence to likely still be a good QB were he to have injuries. I don't think Jackson would.
you think maybe Mahomes has an ok arm? Maybe? not bad?
He is a unicorn. You don't know what you are seeing if you are even watching at all.
Quote:
In comment 14681767 Mendenhall64 said:
Quote:
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
only one - at most. more likely one every other week. I just want the fan base to "get it". let's clamor for these kinds of players and this kind of approach.
So, basically you're trolling. Thanks. That's what I figured.
Well yeah, and if Brees wasn't the most accurate NFL QB maybe ever, he wouldn't have been as good as he was. If Peyton couldn't read defenses like he did, he wouldn't have been any good either.
Take away what makes a player and claiming he wouldn't be special isn't breaking news. You can do that for anyone. If Saquon Barkley had Ron Dayne's vision he would just be a musclehead in football pads like Trent Richardson.
Quote:
In comment 14681775 smshmth8690 said:
Quote:
In comment 14681767 Mendenhall64 said:
Quote:
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
only one - at most. more likely one every other week. I just want the fan base to "get it". let's clamor for these kinds of players and this kind of approach.
So, basically you're trolling. Thanks. That's what I figured.
how is posting about a credible mvp candidate who many fans here think is not as good as our guy, trolling? i want us to have a serious conversation about what talent is, where the league is going. I want us to challenge this organization to keep up with the changing NFL.
Klaatu barada nikto!!!
Well yeah, and if Brees wasn't the most accurate NFL QB maybe ever, he wouldn't have been as good as he was. If Peyton couldn't read defenses like he did, he wouldn't have been any good either.
The implication is that the mobility can be taken away via leg injury, as we have seen with a number of quarterbacks in the last 20 years who expose themselves to nastier hits because of their play style.
Brady suffered a major leg injury and arguably came back better than ever, because he wins from the pocket. Almost every starting quarterback gets hurt, but running quarterbacks are affected more.
Quote:
"If he wasn't a runner, he wouldn't be any good".
Well yeah, and if Brees wasn't the most accurate NFL QB maybe ever, he wouldn't have been as good as he was. If Peyton couldn't read defenses like he did, he wouldn't have been any good either.
The implication is that the mobility can be taken away via leg injury, as we have seen with a number of quarterbacks in the last 20 years who expose themselves to nastier hits because of their play style.
Brady suffered a major leg injury and arguably came back better than ever, because he wins from the pocket. Almost every starting quarterback gets hurt, but running quarterbacks are affected more.
why are you writing off Lamar as a thrower. His throwing has been off the charts statistically. He is throwing MUCH better than Daniel Jones. Period. He is DJ's age. He is only 22 years old. Are you equally critical of Daniel Jones as a thrower? You are only negative about Lamar's potential to get better ion the pocket because he is such a great runner. You people are nuts. He is 22, played what, 16 games in the NFL, and he is a credible MVP candidate.
The fact is, if we was a giant we would be totally over the moon with the young man. But he's not so we prefer Daniel Jones. Sorry, at this stage in their careers, and DJ and Lamar are the SAME age, DJ can't sniff Lamar's jock strap. Admit that and we can have a sensible conversation. Doesn't mean DJ won't one day be great, or one day be better than Lamar. But it's not the case right now, and honestly, it is likely not to happen. Lamar is already great. DJ is still a work in progress.
By that measure, if Jackson were doing this for the Giants there'd be people here calling him a fucking god.
By that measure, if Jackson were doing this for the Giants there'd be people here calling him a fucking god.
100%.. if Lamar was doing this on the Giants he would already be a Hall of Famer. We'd having to be talking them down.
Baltimore is the king of the late first rounder gold.
Optimizing LJax requires out of the box thinking.
Enough said.
Optimizing LJax requires out of the box thinking.
Enough said.
I'd be surprised if Jackson were even on our board.
I'd be surprised if Jackson were even on our board.
Probably as a WR... ;)
why are you writing off Lamar as a thrower. His throwing has been off the charts statistically. He is throwing MUCH better than Daniel Jones. Period. He is DJ's age. He is only 22 years old. Are you equally critical of Daniel Jones as a thrower? You are only negative about Lamar's potential to get better ion the pocket because he is such a great runner. You people are nuts. He is 22, played what, 16 games in the NFL, and he is a credible MVP candidate.
The fact is, if we was a giant we would be totally over the moon with the young man. But he's not so we prefer Daniel Jones. Sorry, at this stage in their careers, and DJ and Lamar are the SAME age, DJ can't sniff Lamar's jock strap. Admit that and we can have a sensible conversation. Doesn't mean DJ won't one day be great, or one day be better than Lamar. But it's not the case right now, and honestly, it is likely not to happen. Lamar is already great. DJ is still a work in progress.
You must be high. As Greg Cosell said during an interview last week, teams are still trying to figure out the Baltimore offense and 99% of them can't accomplish that in 1 week. All five of Lamar's interceptions in 2019 are to division rivals not named the hapless Bengals, meaning the teams that certainly spend more time trying to dissect the offense have more success against Jackson. In the postseason rematch against the Chargers last season, he was a non-entity most of the game. I'll admit to still being extremely skeptical about Jackson, so it shouldn't be a surprise when I say I need to see more. This is especially true of season-ending rematches versus CLE and BALT. His numbers are terrific, but I think the offense isn't sustainable in the long term or against opponents who see it frequently. But, I could be wrong.
As for Daniel Jones, he led the NFL weeks 8 through 10 in touchdown passes. He threw more TD passes in 3 weeks than Lamar had in his first 8 starts combined. Only three active QBs have more TD passes through their first 8 starts than Jones. He did that with no one resembling Ronnie Stanley or Marshal Yanda on his o-line. He did that in spite of a head coach who's not 1% of John Harbaugh. Shepard isn't playing. Engram isn't healthy. Barkley has played a quarter and a half at full strength in Jones' 8 starts. Tate was suspended for 2 of Jones' starts.
Lamar has played well, but he has a LOT working in his favor. Daniel Jones has little to nothing working in his favor. Yet Darius Slayton has more TD receptions than Odell, Julian Edelman, Julio Jones, DeAndre Hopkins, Travis Kelce, and a bunch of other names. Calm down with the "He's throwing much better than Daniel Jones. Period." nonsense. Why can't "Lamar is playing exceptionally right now" suffice?
He is a unicorn. You don't know what you are seeing if you are even watching at all.
Genuinely curious as to how old you are, because not sure if you even remember much of Vick's prime years or if there is recency bias at work here. Lamar Jackson is NOT an order of magnitude better than Vick as a runner (or a thrower, for that matter). Vick could chuck it 45-50 yards on the run with decent accuracy. He also ran a 4.33 40 at the NFL combine. He also ran with exceptional agility and good vision and balance.
Jackson didn't run a 40 at the combine or his pro day. I think Vick is a fair comp for Jackson. They are very similar. They are on the same level as a runner, which is high praise for Jackson. Griffin isn't on the same level as Vick and Jackson. But to say Jackson is "an order of magnitude better than Vick as a runner" is a complete fabrication and ridiculous hyperbole where none is needed. Look up Vick's career highlights if you want, they are on YouTube. Jackson may break Vick's single season rushing record for a QB at 1,039 yards, but he'll do it on significantly more carries, and in a much more offensive-friendly NFL. Vick did it on 123 carries. Jackson is at 788 yards on 115 carries. Stats aside, they are very similar players, but this crowning of Jackson before he's accomplished anything but some regular season stats and some highlight reel runs...it's been done before and what the Falcons (and Eagles, to a lesser degree), got out of it was only that...some great highlights without any postseason success, in a short (prime) window.
We can review their careers in another 10-12 years if you'd like, I'll take Jones or even Josh Allen over Jackson any day, and we'll see how the chips fall. I don't think Jackson is an accurate passer on outside hashmarks on deep and intermediate throws. That was my assessment of him prior to the draft, I haven't seen a ton of him this year but I've seen some, and sometimes his throws are just puzzling still from what I've seen.
He is a unicorn. You don't know what you are seeing if you are even watching at all.
We should be clamoring for unicorns? Exactly how many of them are out there?
history. Flacco was 10-5 in 15 post-season games. He holds the record for most road wins by a QB, with 7.
Joe has one of the highest playoff passer ratings. Taking out his first 2 seasons,Flacco had a 92.1 or higher passer rating in 9 of 10 post-season games.He had a touchdown-to-interception ratio of 24-4.
Joe had a debilitating injury that hampered his passing and mobility.
Flacco was an extraordinary playoff QB.
Quote:
In comment 14681778 Mendenhall64 said:
Quote:
In comment 14681775 smshmth8690 said:
Quote:
In comment 14681767 Mendenhall64 said:
Quote:
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
Well, I wanted him in the second round but the Ravens traded up in front of the Giants to take him. Unfortunately, he's not a Giant and neither are a lot of good players but we don't see all of these threads about them.
The Giants were not among him if he fell 2 more picks. Everyone gets to speculate and think DG the genius would have undoubtedly taken LJ but come on, could you ever see the Giants FO being an that unconventional? I wanted him more than anything and wanted to trade up into the mid 1st to get him but I knew the Giants were never going to. It’s just a fact you come to live with rooting for certain franchises— the Giants have always and will always do it “by the book”, at least as long as the owner’s name is Mara.
How do you for sure they wouldn't take him? Taking a Heisman winner is "unconventional" when you need a QB?
In the Giants' case, yes, taking a Lamar Jackson, Heisman trophy winner, would have been unconventional. It's the same way Charlie Casserly said he could "never see the New York Football Giants drafting a 5-9 QB" in Murray. Despite Murray being a Heisman winner. I actually think Murray would have been more likely than Jackson to the Giants, almost no one believed Lamar Jackson could be successful throwing the ball from the pocket which has been what this franchise has most valued in QBs since the beginning of its existence. I don't think I'm alone on this board in thinking that the Giants would have never taken LJ even if given the chance at #34 (which would have been disappointing to see and live with so I'm glad the Ravens took him anyway).
As for Daniel Jones, he led the NFL weeks 8 through 10 in touchdown passes.
Playing horrific defenses like Detroit and the Jets tends to help.
Quote:
As for Daniel Jones, he led the NFL weeks 8 through 10 in touchdown passes.
Playing horrific defenses like Detroit and the Jets tends to help.
Nothing more horrific as the Giants
Quote:
comparing RG3 and even Vick to Lamar is an order of magnitude better as a runner than those guys. And he is better than both those guys as a passer.
He is a unicorn. You don't know what you are seeing if you are even watching at all.
Genuinely curious as to how old you are, because not sure if you even remember much of Vick's prime years or if there is recency bias at work here. Lamar Jackson is NOT an order of magnitude better than Vick as a runner (or a thrower, for that matter). Vick could chuck it 45-50 yards on the run with decent accuracy. He also ran a 4.33 40 at the NFL combine. He also ran with exceptional agility and good vision and balance.
Jackson didn't run a 40 at the combine or his pro day. I think Vick is a fair comp for Jackson. They are very similar. They are on the same level as a runner, which is high praise for Jackson. Griffin isn't on the same level as Vick and Jackson. But to say Jackson is "an order of magnitude better than Vick as a runner" is a complete fabrication and ridiculous hyperbole where none is needed. Look up Vick's career highlights if you want, they are on YouTube. Jackson may break Vick's single season rushing record for a QB at 1,039 yards, but he'll do it on significantly more carries, and in a much more offensive-friendly NFL. Vick did it on 123 carries. Jackson is at 788 yards on 115 carries. Stats aside, they are very similar players, but this crowning of Jackson before he's accomplished anything but some regular season stats and some highlight reel runs...it's been done before and what the Falcons (and Eagles, to a lesser degree), got out of it was only that...some great highlights without any postseason success, in a short (prime) window.
We can review their careers in another 10-12 years if you'd like, I'll take Jones or even Josh Allen over Jackson any day, and we'll see how the chips fall. I don't think Jackson is an accurate passer on outside hashmarks on deep and intermediate throws. That was my assessment of him prior to the draft, I haven't seen a ton of him this year but I've seen some, and sometimes his throws are just puzzling still from what I've seen.
yes an order of magnitude at least. I am probably older than you. I have been watching football since the early 70s. Long enough for you? How long have YOU been watching football?
As a passer there is literally no comparison. Jackson is putting up perfect passing days. Vick always struggled to pass consistently. Burt even as a runner Lamar is surpassing Vick quite handily. As a starter he is almost double Vick's production on a per game basis and he will smash the QB rushing record in his first full season. I would add, Lamar out of the gate is an MVP candidate, at the age of 22. I don't think in his entire career Vick was a serious MVP candidate. Vick was a wilder player than Lamar, less consistent and less productive. It is early but there is right now no comparison between them. The link here compares Vick and Lamar stats - as of Oct 2019.
Lamar Jackson isn’t Michael Vick — he’s better - ( New Window )
LJ, at age 22 with 17 starts under his belt, already has 19 TDs in 10 games this season, completing 66% of his passes with a YPA of 8.1. Vick had the better arm, yeah, but LJ is obviously the better passer.
Not ever running quarterback is Vick. Vick himself says Lamar is a better passer.
figgy, why do you harass me? We're here to talk football. Unless you are some kind of board cop maybe you should shut your pie hole. Or do you get off on pretending to have some authority because maybe you have none in your actual life..
please help me here. how is anything i am doing is trolling? i am here to talk football on an NGT thread. Who am i badgering? It seems you are badgering me. i think you are the troll in this instance. But maybe I am wrong. Please educate me.
Quote:
As for Daniel Jones, he led the NFL weeks 8 through 10 in touchdown passes.
Playing horrific defenses like Detroit and the Jets tends to help.
The only other QB who played both teams fairly recently is Dak Prescott. Let's compare numbers...
Dak: 57/86, 66% comp. %, 722 passing yards, 3 TDs, 0 INTs
Jones: 54/81, 67% comp. %, 630 passing yards, 8 TDs, 0 INTs
Horrific defenses or not, Jones performed at a level that any reasonable person should find laudable. Doesn't mean we should start getting Jones fitted for a gold jacket, but the idea he's inferior to Jackson as a passer is asinine.
Lamar Jackson is at 8.1 YPA...that's an elite number.
I think Jones is a better physical thrower of the football, but Jackson is a better passer. His running ability opens up passing lanes, and vice versa.
Want to help Jones become a better passer? Call 8 planned runs for him per game. Make opponents respect his running ability.
If Shurmur is fired I think we should give Greg Roman serious consideration to be the next head coach. He could do a lot with an athlete like Jones and Barkley in the backfield.
Lamar Jackson is at 8.1 YPA...that's an elite number.
I think Jones is a better physical thrower of the football, but Jackson is a better passer. His running ability opens up passing lanes, and vice versa.
Want to help Jones become a better passer? Call 8 planned runs for him per game. Make opponents respect his running ability.
If Shurmur is fired I think we should give Greg Roman serious consideration to be the next head coach. He could do a lot with an athlete like Jones and Barkley in the backfield.
yes.. let's add a master schemer like Greg Roman.. please.
- Stop being in the shotgun so much with 3 WRs
- Put QB under center
- FB and TE on the field more often
- Multiple TEs on the field more often
- Using the star RB's speed and athleticism, especially with runs to the edge of the formations
- Play-action passing that allows for using the QB's athleticism to move pocket and adding extra blockers
That's kind of what the offense looked like in the preseason when Jones had a lot of success. Shurmur has decided since the QB move that the Giants need to be in shotgun a ridiculous amount of the time, which lessens the effectiveness of Barkley as a runner and a threat. He's also decided that they need to have 3 WRs on the field a ton when they barely have 1 WR.
There is no comparison to the passer Jackson is?? Are you fucking with us? Putting up perfect passing days? He was 9-20 vs Seattle for 143 yards! He's had three games under 200 yards passing.
And Vick was runner-up for the MVP in 2002 and 2004. Not sure how a player can get votes to be the MVP and not be a candidate - it is the very definition of being one.
We're probably stuck with you trolling the board weekly, but at least stop with the hyperbole and utter bullshit.
and there's a couple of things that I'd like to say
About Prop 15
IT'S NOT OKAY!
Now I'm no jock
no football hero
But that doesn't mean
I'm an absolute zero
Measuring Jackson's performance without considering the running aspect and looking at his YPA misses the boat. Baltimore isn't running a WCO focused on short passes and YAC.
NextGen Stats has a metric called Completion Percentage Above Expectation, defined as "A passer’s actual completion percentage compared to their Expected Completion Percentage." Jackson ranks 10th in the NFL in this metric, above the likes of Rodgers, Rivers, Jones, Mahomes, and Brady.
Jackson is passing at 8.1 YPA, has a 19/5 TD/INT ratio, and has 800 yards and 6 TDs rushing. He's on pace for:
Passing: 3612 yds., 30 TDs, 8 INT
Rushing: 1260 yds., 10 TDs
For comparison, Barkley rushed for 1307 yds. and 13 TDs last year and everyone here was putting him in the Hall of Fame. Jackson is putting up those numbers in fewer carries while putting up a better statistical passing season than Eli Manning ever had.
Eli had 7 seasons over 4000 yards passing, including one with 4,933 yards.
Again - temper the bullshit. Jackson is having an excellent season, but he's not having a better statistical season passing unless you are looking at TD's to INT's.
Eli had 7 seasons over 4000 yards passing, including one with 4,933 yards.
Again - temper the bullshit. Jackson is having an excellent season, but he's not having a better statistical season passing unless you are looking at TD's to INT's.
But again: 8.1 YPA and very few turnovers. That's a major reason the Ravens have double digit victories over New England, Seattle, and Houston.
Eli had 7 seasons over 4000 yards passing, including one with 4,933 yards.
Again - temper the bullshit. Jackson is having an excellent season, but he's not having a better statistical season passing unless you are looking at TD's to INT's.
Why are you LOL?
LJax's QBR is 77.8. Eli has never sniffed that or the TD/INT ratio Jax is trending to...
Quote:
As a passer there is literally no comparison. Jackson is putting up perfect passing days. Vick always struggled to pass consistently. Burt even as a runner Lamar is surpassing Vick quite handily. As a starter he is almost double Vick's production on a per game basis and he will smash the QB rushing record in his first full season. I would add, Lamar out of the gate is an MVP candidate, at the age of 22. I don't think in his entire career Vick was a serious MVP candidate.
There is no comparison to the passer Jackson is?? Are you fucking with us? Putting up perfect passing days? He was 9-20 vs Seattle for 143 yards! He's had three games under 200 yards passing.
And Vick was runner-up for the MVP in 2002 and 2004. Not sure how a player can get votes to be the MVP and not be a candidate - it is the very definition of being one.
We're probably stuck with you trolling the board weekly, but at least stop with the hyperbole and utter bullshit.
i would appreciate it if you responded to me on the merits of my argument and stopped slurring me as a troll. It is not trolling or fanciful to say Vick is not in Lamar's class as a passer. Vick never had a career rate of 80.4. He had one season where he nudged over 100. Lamar is over 105. He has recorded three games higher than Vick ever recorded.
Quote:
to post glowing things about Jackson. It is another thing to just post fanciful bullshit our outright falsehoods:
Quote:
As a passer there is literally no comparison. Jackson is putting up perfect passing days. Vick always struggled to pass consistently. Burt even as a runner Lamar is surpassing Vick quite handily. As a starter he is almost double Vick's production on a per game basis and he will smash the QB rushing record in his first full season. I would add, Lamar out of the gate is an MVP candidate, at the age of 22. I don't think in his entire career Vick was a serious MVP candidate.
There is no comparison to the passer Jackson is?? Are you fucking with us? Putting up perfect passing days? He was 9-20 vs Seattle for 143 yards! He's had three games under 200 yards passing.
And Vick was runner-up for the MVP in 2002 and 2004. Not sure how a player can get votes to be the MVP and not be a candidate - it is the very definition of being one.
We're probably stuck with you trolling the board weekly, but at least stop with the hyperbole and utter bullshit.
i would appreciate it if you responded to me on the merits of my argument and stopped slurring me as a troll. It is not trolling or fanciful to say Vick is not in Lamar's class as a passer. Vick never had a career rate of 80.4. He had one season where he nudged over 100. Lamar is over 105. He has recorded three games higher than Vick ever recorded.
correction: Vick had a career rate of 80.4. Lamar is presently at 98.0. Vick had only one season in the range.
"As a passer there is no comparison"?? Try to back up that line of complete bullshit.
Well, for starters, Jackson in ten games this year (and just seventeen games into his starting career) is only two touchdowns behind Vick's career high of 21, which he achieved as a 30 year old veteran. He's completing 66% of his passes, which Vick never came close to doing, while throwing for a YPA of 8.1 which equals Vick's career high, a number he never reached in any other season but 2010.
I think those are pretty relevant to the argument that Jackson is a better passer than Vick was.
DJ can't sniff Lamar's jock strap. . [/quote]
Really? Fucking twat.
DJ can't sniff Lamar's jock strap. .
Really? Fucking twat. [/quote]
Right now, he can't. Jones is a struggling rookie and Jackson is an MVP candidate. Different worlds.
"As a passer there is no comparison"?? Try to back up that line of complete bullshit.
seriously dude, what are you six years old? we're discussing football. i am giving you rational arguments and you are name-calling. let's try not make this place any more of a fever swamp than it already is. And you are incorrect about Vick being runner up twice. I won't hold my breath for a retraction since you seem too proud to admit anything.
DJ can't sniff Lamar's jock strap. .
Really? Fucking twat. [/quote]
if you are calling me names, like FMiC, you obv lost the argument,.
Lamar Jackson is at 8.1 YPA...that's an elite number.
RG3 led the NFL in YPA as a rookie. As a matter of fact, he averaged 8.1 YPA too. Perhaps it's a function of their offenses as opposed to a statement of their passing skills.
Jones: 184/293, 63% comp. %, 1967 pass yds., 15 TDs, 8 INTs, 203 rush yds., 2 rush TDs, 12 fumbles
Keep in mind, this is Lamar's first 8 regular season starts. If I included the playoff game instead of week 1 of 2019, he suddenly has only 5 passing TDs in his first 8 starts. So if Jones is a struggling rookie, what did that make Lamar?
Jones: 184/293, 63% comp. %, 1967 pass yds., 15 TDs, 8 INTs, 203 rush yds., 2 rush TDs, 12 fumbles
Keep in mind, this is Lamar's first 8 regular season starts. If I included the playoff game instead of week 1 of 2019, he suddenly has only 5 passing TDs in his first 8 starts. So if Jones is a struggling rookie, what did that make Lamar?
Since we are parsing stats, how about we compare their last 8 starts and keep in mind these two QBs are the same age. This is why I started this thread. We have a lot of people who seriously think Jones is in the same category as Jackson. He is not. 99% of non-Giants fans know this. I want us to know it as well so we can be OBJECTIVE assessing talent. Might DJ become the better player, possibly but not likely.
That 2018 draft was awesome for the Ravens, btw - Jax, Hurst, Andrews, and Brown.
That 2018 draft was awesome for the Ravens, btw - Jax, Hurst, Andrews, and Brown.
Cosell has described the Raven offense as "low risk but very hard to defend".. They feature 3 TEs in their primary offense and therefore the defense must go big and heavy, and it makes it hard for the D to go edge to edge against speed. It makes Lamar so much more dangerous. It's a speed mismatch.
2. What were his stats?
3. Terps, if you could sum up this person's season in one pic/gif, what would it be?
Since we are parsing stats, how about we compare their last 8 starts and keep in mind these two QBs are the same age. This is why I started this thread. We have a lot of people who seriously think Jones is in the same category as Jackson. He is not. 99% of non-Giants fans know this. I want us to know it as well so we can be OBJECTIVE assessing talent. Might DJ become the better player, possibly but not likely.
If I'm not being "objective" enough for you, look up RG3's first 17 starts and compare them to Lamar Jackson's. I guess they were both football savants.
Just dial it back a bit if possible.
The kettle is black.
Britt...if Jackson were doing this shit with the Giants what proclamations would you be making?
Britt...if Jackson were doing this shit with the Giants what proclamations would you be making?
My point was yes, he's having fantastic season. But we've seen this before. Notably, as I implied above, with Cam Newton in 2015 where you were quick to throw water on that love fest, and continue to this day to sum up that season with the gif of him quitting in the Superbowl.
Let the thing play out.
Lamar Jackson has a great team around him. That's awesome and he's doing great. I'm not sure he would be doing that here, for one.
For two, I'm not putting Barkley or Daniel Jones in the HOF, but I like what I see, and I'm cautiously optimistic and excited about their future.
Posters did the same thing you're doing - posting stats that showed Beckham favorably to other top WR's. The most receptions and TD's for a player in the stage career he was at.
And what did you do? Shit on it. But when you do it for Jackson, the people doing the same thing you did for Beckham are mocked.
Interesting that you don't even see your own hypocrisy but continually point out others.
Jackson isn't Cam. Cam has a clown personality, which is a shame because he was a supreme talent. But there isn't much Cam and Jackson have in common.
Let's face it, he plays in a division where every team is pretty dirty (his own included), so it is just a matter of time before he's sidelined.
Because when you take the core group of people praising Jackson, there's a lot of overlap to those criticizing the positional value of RB's and Barkley.
So if Jackson has a good 4 year run and is then impacted by injury or worse, that will highlight that it isn't just the production that's important, it is the health.
You guys sure do pick your spots.
That is the one of the questions - is it sustainable? If I was a Raven fan I would be holding my breath every time Jax ran. He runs straight up, creating a pretty big target to hit. But he's got this Gumby thing going on and he just bounces back up like he simply fell in a moonwalk.
The other question is obvious - can he transform to a much more conventional pocket passer, who only runs as a last resort, and be effective in that role? Thus, reducing hits at higher rates of speed.
If I'm Ravens Central, I am still looking for a QB in the later round of the draft as insurance.
Ironically enough, that staff has done a very nice job rejuvenating RG3. He's looked very good when he's been called in for relief duty in the prior years. So if Jax were to get hurt, I think RG3 would do a decent job keeping them on the tracks...
I always wonder if we missed a great opportunity two years ago when Harbaugh and Bisciotti seemed to be on shaky ground. I would have seriously considered given up draft picks for Harbaugh. He's a great, great coach...
If Hurts is there in round 2, we should seriously consider taking him. That would be first round skills falling into the second round.
Hurts has that thicker, Russell Wilson type body that seems more durable.
Did you see that option play Romans ran two weeks ago with Jax and RG3? Jax rolled out, took off, and then pitched to RG3 who was at tailback. I imagine they have another layer in that play where RG3 takes the pitch behind the LOS, the OL doesn't get downfield, and RG3 throws a strike to someone.
That team has some serious imagination, especially when they go heavy with those 3 headed TE monsters.
Makes you wish we took Hockenson, huh? ;)
I wonder if it would make sense to take that a step further. Are there situations where it makes sense to remove your starting quarterback? Say it's third and 20 at your own 25, or even first and goal at the 1...are there situations in a game that has yet to be decided where it makes sense to pull your starter and have the backup in?
What's harder to see through box scores is that he seems to be picking his moments to run intelligently. He doesn't always run. There are games where he runs it 19 times, and games where me might run it 7 times.
You can also infer from his yards per rush, when he does run, it's because he has an open field. The last three games, his yards per rush were 9, 9, 4, and 8.