Also, terps wasn’t the only one who loved Jackson. Many here were intrigued with his skill set and would have gotten on board with the pick it it occured.
This is true. I found LJax very interesting but couldn't see him fitting in here without having a coaching staff that would be creative and malleable enough to use him.
I said LJax was fortunate to have a coach like Bobby Petrino who could exploit Jax's skill set. Terps said we should then hire Petrino. While nice in theory, that was going to be a non-starter.
Look, all the credit in the world to the Ravens organization for thinking out of the box and, most importantly, executing on their strategy.
And I can tell you the pass protection he is getting is simply out of this world. Maybe part of that protection is due to teams afraid to rush him and wanting to just keep him in the pocket.
I don't know?
But if Daniel Jones had that kind of pocket, he would have 300 - 400 yards passing every week.
Also, terps wasn’t the only one who loved Jackson. Many here were intrigued with his skill set and would have gotten on board with the pick it it occured.
This is true. I found LJax very interesting but couldn't see him fitting in here without having a coaching staff that would be creative and malleable enough to use him.
I said LJax was fortunate to have a coach like Bobby Petrino who could exploit Jax's skill set. Terps said we should then hire Petrino. While nice in theory, that was going to be a non-starter.
Look, all the credit in the world to the Ravens organization for thinking out of the box and, most importantly, executing on their strategy.
The ravens are an excellent organization. Jackson could not have landed in a better spot there with Harbaugh.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Are you going to start a Lamar thread every week? Â
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
Well, I wanted him in the second round but the Ravens traded up in front of the Giants to take him. Unfortunately, he's not a Giant and neither are a lot of good players but we don't see all of these threads about them.
The Giants were not among him if he fell 2 more picks. Everyone gets to speculate and think DG the genius would have undoubtedly taken LJ but come on, could you ever see the Giants FO being an that unconventional? I wanted him more than anything and wanted to trade up into the mid 1st to get him but I knew the Giants were never going to. It’s just a fact you come to live with rooting for certain franchises— the Giants have always and will always do it “by the book”, at least as long as the owner’s name is Mara.
How do you for sure they wouldn't take him? Taking a Heisman winner is "unconventional" when you need a QB?
To see what happens when a team neutralizes the run game of the ravens. We see it all the time in the playoffs, qbs are forced to beat a team and make big throws. We ll have to see whether Jackson can pass that test, he’s certainly worked hard to improve his passing, kudos to him and to ThBe ravens organization, which is one of the better in the sport right now.
All of that being said, I’ve seen this movie before with these types of qbs lighting the league on fire only to be game planned around and/or sustain career altering injuries. Let me see if end differently with Jackson than it did for Vick, RGIII, et al.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The dupe OP is almost right. Â
it's a reasonable debate I suppose.. I would like to hear what others think. The thing is Lamar is a great football player, right now. He's the bird in the hand. DJ, at this stage is an unfinished product. We don't know what he is. The odds are that he is unlikely to ever be as great as Lamar is RIGHT NOW. That's the difference. Lamar can win a super bowl - now. And if he wins the super bowl it ends the debate. No? i think most observers would take Lamar. Might pose it in the main board.
Yes. Lamar is a very good to great FB player. But he is still a work in progress, too. He's ok throwing while tremendous running. That needs to turn around. He needs to do better and be more consistent throwing.
Let's not put him in Canton quite yet. RGIII started like a house afire, too.
I think he's already lasted longer doing this than RG3 did.
Name five other players on the Giants team you'd rather have than the Ravens equivalent.
QB Lamar Jackson
RB Mark Ingram II
WR Marquise Brown
WR Miles Boykin
WR Willie Snead IV
TE Mark Andrews
LT Ronnie Stanley
LG Bradley Bozeman
C Matt Skura
RG Marshal Yanda
RT Orlando Brown Jr.
LDE Chris Wormley
NT Michael PierceO
RDE Brandon Williams
WLB Matthew Judon
LILB Patrick Onwuasor
RILB Josh Bynes
SLB Jaylon Ferguson
LCB Marlon Humphrey
SS Chuck Clark
FS Earl Thomas III
RCB Marcus Peters
This really about sums it up. A healthy Barkley (not the one we currently have) is literally the only guy on this team who without debate starts for Baltimore.
And at the end of the day, that's the indictment of this roster. We are a long way from competing.
Barkley, Golden, Big Dex, and both OGs. Their roster is better top to bottom, but saying they are better at every position isn't true. Shepard > Snead as well (or Slayton). Both are better than him and Boykin.
Barkley, Golden, Big Dex, and both OGs. Their roster is better top to bottom, but saying they are better at every position isn't true. Shepard > Snead as well (or Slayton). Both are better than him and Boykin.
Are you suggesting our Gs are better than Yanda and Bozeman?
You are way off with this hot-take on the Ravens defense. The Ravens are 15th in defensive yards per game allowed, 14th in points allowed, 8th in rush yards allowed, 20th in pass yards allowed, and 13 in points allowed. If anything they are middle of the pack defensive-wise. Lamar is carrying the team.
You call them middle of the pack, but I struggle to find a single player on that defense that I wouldn't swap starters with on the Giants, outside of maybe Dexter Lawrence
All that proves is that the Giants D isn't even in the pack.
And probably an extreme example of why you must have a mobile QB in this league today. Virtually all of the successful QBs have some mobiliry.
The days of just sitting back in the pocket are over. The defensive lines are dominating the offensive lines so the QB needs to be able to make plays outside of the pocket.
Simply having the threat of a QB bootleg helps the inside run game.
because he couldn't compete as a starter without his mobility. If Jackson were to suffer a significant injury, it would be the same.
Guys like Watson, Wentz and Wilson have the ability to be pocket passers. Mahomes is an interesting case to follow - his productivity has been affected by his injury, but he has the arm strength and pocket presence to likely still be a good QB were he to have injuries. I don't think Jackson would.
because he couldn't compete as a starter without his mobility. If Jackson were to suffer a significant injury, it would be the same.
Guys like Watson, Wentz and Wilson have the ability to be pocket passers. Mahomes is an interesting case to follow - his productivity has been affected by his injury, but he has the arm strength and pocket presence to likely still be a good QB were he to have injuries. I don't think Jackson would.
you think maybe Mahomes has an ok arm? Maybe? not bad?
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
only one - at most. more likely one every other week. I just want the fan base to "get it". let's clamor for these kinds of players and this kind of approach.
So, basically you're trolling. Thanks. That's what I figured.
Well yeah, and if Brees wasn't the most accurate NFL QB maybe ever, he wouldn't have been as good as he was. If Peyton couldn't read defenses like he did, he wouldn't have been any good either.
Take away what makes a player and claiming he wouldn't be special isn't breaking news. You can do that for anyone. If Saquon Barkley had Ron Dayne's vision he would just be a musclehead in football pads like Trent Richardson.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Are you going to start a Lamar thread every week? Â
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
only one - at most. more likely one every other week. I just want the fan base to "get it". let's clamor for these kinds of players and this kind of approach.
So, basically you're trolling. Thanks. That's what I figured.
how is posting about a credible mvp candidate who many fans here think is not as good as our guy, trolling? i want us to have a serious conversation about what talent is, where the league is going. I want us to challenge this organization to keep up with the changing NFL.
Well yeah, and if Brees wasn't the most accurate NFL QB maybe ever, he wouldn't have been as good as he was. If Peyton couldn't read defenses like he did, he wouldn't have been any good either.
The implication is that the mobility can be taken away via leg injury, as we have seen with a number of quarterbacks in the last 20 years who expose themselves to nastier hits because of their play style.
Brady suffered a major leg injury and arguably came back better than ever, because he wins from the pocket. Almost every starting quarterback gets hurt, but running quarterbacks are affected more.
Well yeah, and if Brees wasn't the most accurate NFL QB maybe ever, he wouldn't have been as good as he was. If Peyton couldn't read defenses like he did, he wouldn't have been any good either.
The implication is that the mobility can be taken away via leg injury, as we have seen with a number of quarterbacks in the last 20 years who expose themselves to nastier hits because of their play style.
Brady suffered a major leg injury and arguably came back better than ever, because he wins from the pocket. Almost every starting quarterback gets hurt, but running quarterbacks are affected more.
why are you writing off Lamar as a thrower. His throwing has been off the charts statistically. He is throwing MUCH better than Daniel Jones. Period. He is DJ's age. He is only 22 years old. Are you equally critical of Daniel Jones as a thrower? You are only negative about Lamar's potential to get better ion the pocket because he is such a great runner. You people are nuts. He is 22, played what, 16 games in the NFL, and he is a credible MVP candidate.
The fact is, if we was a giant we would be totally over the moon with the young man. But he's not so we prefer Daniel Jones. Sorry, at this stage in their careers, and DJ and Lamar are the SAME age, DJ can't sniff Lamar's jock strap. Admit that and we can have a sensible conversation. Doesn't mean DJ won't one day be great, or one day be better than Lamar. But it's not the case right now, and honestly, it is likely not to happen. Lamar is already great. DJ is still a work in progress.
If Jackson were a Giant, the conversation here would be very different Â
why are you writing off Lamar as a thrower. His throwing has been off the charts statistically. He is throwing MUCH better than Daniel Jones. Period. He is DJ's age. He is only 22 years old. Are you equally critical of Daniel Jones as a thrower? You are only negative about Lamar's potential to get better ion the pocket because he is such a great runner. You people are nuts. He is 22, played what, 16 games in the NFL, and he is a credible MVP candidate.
The fact is, if we was a giant we would be totally over the moon with the young man. But he's not so we prefer Daniel Jones. Sorry, at this stage in their careers, and DJ and Lamar are the SAME age, DJ can't sniff Lamar's jock strap. Admit that and we can have a sensible conversation. Doesn't mean DJ won't one day be great, or one day be better than Lamar. But it's not the case right now, and honestly, it is likely not to happen. Lamar is already great. DJ is still a work in progress.
You must be high. As Greg Cosell said during an interview last week, teams are still trying to figure out the Baltimore offense and 99% of them can't accomplish that in 1 week. All five of Lamar's interceptions in 2019 are to division rivals not named the hapless Bengals, meaning the teams that certainly spend more time trying to dissect the offense have more success against Jackson. In the postseason rematch against the Chargers last season, he was a non-entity most of the game. I'll admit to still being extremely skeptical about Jackson, so it shouldn't be a surprise when I say I need to see more. This is especially true of season-ending rematches versus CLE and BALT. His numbers are terrific, but I think the offense isn't sustainable in the long term or against opponents who see it frequently. But, I could be wrong.
As for Daniel Jones, he led the NFL weeks 8 through 10 in touchdown passes. He threw more TD passes in 3 weeks than Lamar had in his first 8 starts combined. Only three active QBs have more TD passes through their first 8 starts than Jones. He did that with no one resembling Ronnie Stanley or Marshal Yanda on his o-line. He did that in spite of a head coach who's not 1% of John Harbaugh. Shepard isn't playing. Engram isn't healthy. Barkley has played a quarter and a half at full strength in Jones' 8 starts. Tate was suspended for 2 of Jones' starts.
Lamar has played well, but he has a LOT working in his favor. Daniel Jones has little to nothing working in his favor. Yet Darius Slayton has more TD receptions than Odell, Julian Edelman, Julio Jones, DeAndre Hopkins, Travis Kelce, and a bunch of other names. Calm down with the "He's throwing much better than Daniel Jones. Period." nonsense. Why can't "Lamar is playing exceptionally right now" suffice?
comparing RG3 and even Vick to Lamar is an order of magnitude better as a runner than those guys. And he is better than both those guys as a passer.
He is a unicorn. You don't know what you are seeing if you are even watching at all.
Genuinely curious as to how old you are, because not sure if you even remember much of Vick's prime years or if there is recency bias at work here. Lamar Jackson is NOT an order of magnitude better than Vick as a runner (or a thrower, for that matter). Vick could chuck it 45-50 yards on the run with decent accuracy. He also ran a 4.33 40 at the NFL combine. He also ran with exceptional agility and good vision and balance.
Jackson didn't run a 40 at the combine or his pro day. I think Vick is a fair comp for Jackson. They are very similar. They are on the same level as a runner, which is high praise for Jackson. Griffin isn't on the same level as Vick and Jackson. But to say Jackson is "an order of magnitude better than Vick as a runner" is a complete fabrication and ridiculous hyperbole where none is needed. Look up Vick's career highlights if you want, they are on YouTube. Jackson may break Vick's single season rushing record for a QB at 1,039 yards, but he'll do it on significantly more carries, and in a much more offensive-friendly NFL. Vick did it on 123 carries. Jackson is at 788 yards on 115 carries. Stats aside, they are very similar players, but this crowning of Jackson before he's accomplished anything but some regular season stats and some highlight reel runs...it's been done before and what the Falcons (and Eagles, to a lesser degree), got out of it was only that...some great highlights without any postseason success, in a short (prime) window.
We can review their careers in another 10-12 years if you'd like, I'll take Jones or even Josh Allen over Jackson any day, and we'll see how the chips fall. I don't think Jackson is an accurate passer on outside hashmarks on deep and intermediate throws. That was my assessment of him prior to the draft, I haven't seen a ton of him this year but I've seen some, and sometimes his throws are just puzzling still from what I've seen.
Joe Flacco was one of the best playoff quarterbacks in NFL
history. Flacco was 10-5 in 15 post-season games. He holds the record for most road wins by a QB, with 7.
Joe has one of the highest playoff passer ratings. Taking out his first 2 seasons,Flacco had a 92.1 or higher passer rating in 9 of 10 post-season games.He had a touchdown-to-interception ratio of 24-4.
Joe had a debilitating injury that hampered his passing and mobility.
Flacco was an extraordinary playoff QB.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Are you going to start a Lamar thread every week? Â
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
Well, I wanted him in the second round but the Ravens traded up in front of the Giants to take him. Unfortunately, he's not a Giant and neither are a lot of good players but we don't see all of these threads about them.
The Giants were not among him if he fell 2 more picks. Everyone gets to speculate and think DG the genius would have undoubtedly taken LJ but come on, could you ever see the Giants FO being an that unconventional? I wanted him more than anything and wanted to trade up into the mid 1st to get him but I knew the Giants were never going to. It’s just a fact you come to live with rooting for certain franchises— the Giants have always and will always do it “by the book”, at least as long as the owner’s name is Mara.
How do you for sure they wouldn't take him? Taking a Heisman winner is "unconventional" when you need a QB?
In the Giants' case, yes, taking a Lamar Jackson, Heisman trophy winner, would have been unconventional. It's the same way Charlie Casserly said he could "never see the New York Football Giants drafting a 5-9 QB" in Murray. Despite Murray being a Heisman winner. I actually think Murray would have been more likely than Jackson to the Giants, almost no one believed Lamar Jackson could be successful throwing the ball from the pocket which has been what this franchise has most valued in QBs since the beginning of its existence. I don't think I'm alone on this board in thinking that the Giants would have never taken LJ even if given the chance at #34 (which would have been disappointing to see and live with so I'm glad the Ravens took him anyway).
comparing RG3 and even Vick to Lamar is an order of magnitude better as a runner than those guys. And he is better than both those guys as a passer.
He is a unicorn. You don't know what you are seeing if you are even watching at all.
Genuinely curious as to how old you are, because not sure if you even remember much of Vick's prime years or if there is recency bias at work here. Lamar Jackson is NOT an order of magnitude better than Vick as a runner (or a thrower, for that matter). Vick could chuck it 45-50 yards on the run with decent accuracy. He also ran a 4.33 40 at the NFL combine. He also ran with exceptional agility and good vision and balance.
Jackson didn't run a 40 at the combine or his pro day. I think Vick is a fair comp for Jackson. They are very similar. They are on the same level as a runner, which is high praise for Jackson. Griffin isn't on the same level as Vick and Jackson. But to say Jackson is "an order of magnitude better than Vick as a runner" is a complete fabrication and ridiculous hyperbole where none is needed. Look up Vick's career highlights if you want, they are on YouTube. Jackson may break Vick's single season rushing record for a QB at 1,039 yards, but he'll do it on significantly more carries, and in a much more offensive-friendly NFL. Vick did it on 123 carries. Jackson is at 788 yards on 115 carries. Stats aside, they are very similar players, but this crowning of Jackson before he's accomplished anything but some regular season stats and some highlight reel runs...it's been done before and what the Falcons (and Eagles, to a lesser degree), got out of it was only that...some great highlights without any postseason success, in a short (prime) window.
We can review their careers in another 10-12 years if you'd like, I'll take Jones or even Josh Allen over Jackson any day, and we'll see how the chips fall. I don't think Jackson is an accurate passer on outside hashmarks on deep and intermediate throws. That was my assessment of him prior to the draft, I haven't seen a ton of him this year but I've seen some, and sometimes his throws are just puzzling still from what I've seen.
yes an order of magnitude at least. I am probably older than you. I have been watching football since the early 70s. Long enough for you? How long have YOU been watching football?
As a passer there is literally no comparison. Jackson is putting up perfect passing days. Vick always struggled to pass consistently. Burt even as a runner Lamar is surpassing Vick quite handily. As a starter he is almost double Vick's production on a per game basis and he will smash the QB rushing record in his first full season. I would add, Lamar out of the gate is an MVP candidate, at the age of 22. I don't think in his entire career Vick was a serious MVP candidate. Vick was a wilder player than Lamar, less consistent and less productive. It is early but there is right now no comparison between them. The link here compares Vick and Lamar stats - as of Oct 2019. Lamar Jackson isn’t Michael Vick — he’s better - ( New Window )
Vick didn't crack 60% completions until he was 30 years old Â
with the Eagles with 62%. It was the only time he did in his career other than his five game stint in Pittsburgh. Never had a YPA of 8.1 till that season, either. Only topped 18 passing TDs twice, 20 in 2006 with the Falcons and 21 in 2010 with the Eagles.
LJ, at age 22 with 17 starts under his belt, already has 19 TDs in 10 games this season, completing 66% of his passes with a YPA of 8.1. Vick had the better arm, yeah, but LJ is obviously the better passer.
More to the point, the Falcons went to a west coast style offense Â
I thought you were banned, did you cry to get your dupe handle back?
figgy, why do you harass me? We're here to talk football. Unless you are some kind of board cop maybe you should shut your pie hole. Or do you get off on pretending to have some authority because maybe you have none in your actual life..
No just pointing out that you are simply here to troll Â
please help me here. how is anything i am doing is trolling? i am here to talk football on an NGT thread. Who am i badgering? It seems you are badgering me. i think you are the troll in this instance. But maybe I am wrong. Please educate me.
Horrific defenses or not, Jones performed at a level that any reasonable person should find laudable. Doesn't mean we should start getting Jones fitted for a gold jacket, but the idea he's inferior to Jackson as a passer is asinine.
Also, terps wasn’t the only one who loved Jackson. Many here were intrigued with his skill set and would have gotten on board with the pick it it occured.
This is true. I found LJax very interesting but couldn't see him fitting in here without having a coaching staff that would be creative and malleable enough to use him.
I said LJax was fortunate to have a coach like Bobby Petrino who could exploit Jax's skill set. Terps said we should then hire Petrino. While nice in theory, that was going to be a non-starter.
Look, all the credit in the world to the Ravens organization for thinking out of the box and, most importantly, executing on their strategy.
...clearly a great player.
And I can tell you the pass protection he is getting is simply out of this world. Maybe part of that protection is due to teams afraid to rush him and wanting to just keep him in the pocket.
I don't know?
But if Daniel Jones had that kind of pocket, he would have 300 - 400 yards passing every week.
Quote:
Also, terps wasn’t the only one who loved Jackson. Many here were intrigued with his skill set and would have gotten on board with the pick it it occured.
This is true. I found LJax very interesting but couldn't see him fitting in here without having a coaching staff that would be creative and malleable enough to use him.
I said LJax was fortunate to have a coach like Bobby Petrino who could exploit Jax's skill set. Terps said we should then hire Petrino. While nice in theory, that was going to be a non-starter.
Look, all the credit in the world to the Ravens organization for thinking out of the box and, most importantly, executing on their strategy.
The ravens are an excellent organization. Jackson could not have landed in a better spot there with Harbaugh.
Quote:
In comment 14681775 smshmth8690 said:
Quote:
In comment 14681767 Mendenhall64 said:
Quote:
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
Well, I wanted him in the second round but the Ravens traded up in front of the Giants to take him. Unfortunately, he's not a Giant and neither are a lot of good players but we don't see all of these threads about them.
The Giants were not among him if he fell 2 more picks. Everyone gets to speculate and think DG the genius would have undoubtedly taken LJ but come on, could you ever see the Giants FO being an that unconventional? I wanted him more than anything and wanted to trade up into the mid 1st to get him but I knew the Giants were never going to. It’s just a fact you come to live with rooting for certain franchises— the Giants have always and will always do it “by the book”, at least as long as the owner’s name is Mara.
How do you for sure they wouldn't take him? Taking a Heisman winner is "unconventional" when you need a QB?
Think RG3. Quick skinny kid hits moving object. Thee End
All of that being said, I’ve seen this movie before with these types of qbs lighting the league on fire only to be game planned around and/or sustain career altering injuries. Let me see if end differently with Jackson than it did for Vick, RGIII, et al.
Quote:
it's a reasonable debate I suppose.. I would like to hear what others think. The thing is Lamar is a great football player, right now. He's the bird in the hand. DJ, at this stage is an unfinished product. We don't know what he is. The odds are that he is unlikely to ever be as great as Lamar is RIGHT NOW. That's the difference. Lamar can win a super bowl - now. And if he wins the super bowl it ends the debate. No? i think most observers would take Lamar. Might pose it in the main board.
Yes. Lamar is a very good to great FB player. But he is still a work in progress, too. He's ok throwing while tremendous running. That needs to turn around. He needs to do better and be more consistent throwing.
Let's not put him in Canton quite yet. RGIII started like a house afire, too.
I think he's already lasted longer doing this than RG3 did.
For the record, RG3 is his backup.
QB Lamar Jackson
RB Mark Ingram II
WR Marquise Brown
WR Miles Boykin
WR Willie Snead IV
TE Mark Andrews
LT Ronnie Stanley
LG Bradley Bozeman
C Matt Skura
RG Marshal Yanda
RT Orlando Brown Jr.
LDE Chris Wormley
NT Michael PierceO
RDE Brandon Williams
WLB Matthew Judon
LILB Patrick Onwuasor
RILB Josh Bynes
SLB Jaylon Ferguson
LCB Marlon Humphrey
SS Chuck Clark
FS Earl Thomas III
RCB Marcus Peters
This really about sums it up. A healthy Barkley (not the one we currently have) is literally the only guy on this team who without debate starts for Baltimore.
And at the end of the day, that's the indictment of this roster. We are a long way from competing.
Are you suggesting our Gs are better than Yanda and Bozeman?
Quote:
You are way off with this hot-take on the Ravens defense. The Ravens are 15th in defensive yards per game allowed, 14th in points allowed, 8th in rush yards allowed, 20th in pass yards allowed, and 13 in points allowed. If anything they are middle of the pack defensive-wise. Lamar is carrying the team.
You call them middle of the pack, but I struggle to find a single player on that defense that I wouldn't swap starters with on the Giants, outside of maybe Dexter Lawrence
All that proves is that the Giants D isn't even in the pack.
The days of just sitting back in the pocket are over. The defensive lines are dominating the offensive lines so the QB needs to be able to make plays outside of the pocket.
Simply having the threat of a QB bootleg helps the inside run game.
Think RG3. Quick skinny kid hits moving object. Thee End
Lamar is 3 inches shorter and only 8 pounds lighter than Jones. He’s not skinny.
RG3 weighed more than Eli and Jones while being shorter
Never? RG3 and Jackson are fairly close statistically in their first 17 starts.
Guys like Watson, Wentz and Wilson have the ability to be pocket passers. Mahomes is an interesting case to follow - his productivity has been affected by his injury, but he has the arm strength and pocket presence to likely still be a good QB were he to have injuries. I don't think Jackson would.
Guys like Watson, Wentz and Wilson have the ability to be pocket passers. Mahomes is an interesting case to follow - his productivity has been affected by his injury, but he has the arm strength and pocket presence to likely still be a good QB were he to have injuries. I don't think Jackson would.
you think maybe Mahomes has an ok arm? Maybe? not bad?
He is a unicorn. You don't know what you are seeing if you are even watching at all.
Quote:
In comment 14681767 Mendenhall64 said:
Quote:
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
only one - at most. more likely one every other week. I just want the fan base to "get it". let's clamor for these kinds of players and this kind of approach.
So, basically you're trolling. Thanks. That's what I figured.
Well yeah, and if Brees wasn't the most accurate NFL QB maybe ever, he wouldn't have been as good as he was. If Peyton couldn't read defenses like he did, he wouldn't have been any good either.
Take away what makes a player and claiming he wouldn't be special isn't breaking news. You can do that for anyone. If Saquon Barkley had Ron Dayne's vision he would just be a musclehead in football pads like Trent Richardson.
Quote:
In comment 14681775 smshmth8690 said:
Quote:
In comment 14681767 Mendenhall64 said:
Quote:
Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
only one - at most. more likely one every other week. I just want the fan base to "get it". let's clamor for these kinds of players and this kind of approach.
So, basically you're trolling. Thanks. That's what I figured.
how is posting about a credible mvp candidate who many fans here think is not as good as our guy, trolling? i want us to have a serious conversation about what talent is, where the league is going. I want us to challenge this organization to keep up with the changing NFL.
Klaatu barada nikto!!!
Well yeah, and if Brees wasn't the most accurate NFL QB maybe ever, he wouldn't have been as good as he was. If Peyton couldn't read defenses like he did, he wouldn't have been any good either.
The implication is that the mobility can be taken away via leg injury, as we have seen with a number of quarterbacks in the last 20 years who expose themselves to nastier hits because of their play style.
Brady suffered a major leg injury and arguably came back better than ever, because he wins from the pocket. Almost every starting quarterback gets hurt, but running quarterbacks are affected more.
Quote:
"If he wasn't a runner, he wouldn't be any good".
Well yeah, and if Brees wasn't the most accurate NFL QB maybe ever, he wouldn't have been as good as he was. If Peyton couldn't read defenses like he did, he wouldn't have been any good either.
The implication is that the mobility can be taken away via leg injury, as we have seen with a number of quarterbacks in the last 20 years who expose themselves to nastier hits because of their play style.
Brady suffered a major leg injury and arguably came back better than ever, because he wins from the pocket. Almost every starting quarterback gets hurt, but running quarterbacks are affected more.
why are you writing off Lamar as a thrower. His throwing has been off the charts statistically. He is throwing MUCH better than Daniel Jones. Period. He is DJ's age. He is only 22 years old. Are you equally critical of Daniel Jones as a thrower? You are only negative about Lamar's potential to get better ion the pocket because he is such a great runner. You people are nuts. He is 22, played what, 16 games in the NFL, and he is a credible MVP candidate.
The fact is, if we was a giant we would be totally over the moon with the young man. But he's not so we prefer Daniel Jones. Sorry, at this stage in their careers, and DJ and Lamar are the SAME age, DJ can't sniff Lamar's jock strap. Admit that and we can have a sensible conversation. Doesn't mean DJ won't one day be great, or one day be better than Lamar. But it's not the case right now, and honestly, it is likely not to happen. Lamar is already great. DJ is still a work in progress.
By that measure, if Jackson were doing this for the Giants there'd be people here calling him a fucking god.
By that measure, if Jackson were doing this for the Giants there'd be people here calling him a fucking god.
100%.. if Lamar was doing this on the Giants he would already be a Hall of Famer. We'd having to be talking them down.
Baltimore is the king of the late first rounder gold.
Optimizing LJax requires out of the box thinking.
Enough said.
Optimizing LJax requires out of the box thinking.
Enough said.
I'd be surprised if Jackson were even on our board.
I'd be surprised if Jackson were even on our board.
Probably as a WR... ;)
why are you writing off Lamar as a thrower. His throwing has been off the charts statistically. He is throwing MUCH better than Daniel Jones. Period. He is DJ's age. He is only 22 years old. Are you equally critical of Daniel Jones as a thrower? You are only negative about Lamar's potential to get better ion the pocket because he is such a great runner. You people are nuts. He is 22, played what, 16 games in the NFL, and he is a credible MVP candidate.
The fact is, if we was a giant we would be totally over the moon with the young man. But he's not so we prefer Daniel Jones. Sorry, at this stage in their careers, and DJ and Lamar are the SAME age, DJ can't sniff Lamar's jock strap. Admit that and we can have a sensible conversation. Doesn't mean DJ won't one day be great, or one day be better than Lamar. But it's not the case right now, and honestly, it is likely not to happen. Lamar is already great. DJ is still a work in progress.
You must be high. As Greg Cosell said during an interview last week, teams are still trying to figure out the Baltimore offense and 99% of them can't accomplish that in 1 week. All five of Lamar's interceptions in 2019 are to division rivals not named the hapless Bengals, meaning the teams that certainly spend more time trying to dissect the offense have more success against Jackson. In the postseason rematch against the Chargers last season, he was a non-entity most of the game. I'll admit to still being extremely skeptical about Jackson, so it shouldn't be a surprise when I say I need to see more. This is especially true of season-ending rematches versus CLE and BALT. His numbers are terrific, but I think the offense isn't sustainable in the long term or against opponents who see it frequently. But, I could be wrong.
As for Daniel Jones, he led the NFL weeks 8 through 10 in touchdown passes. He threw more TD passes in 3 weeks than Lamar had in his first 8 starts combined. Only three active QBs have more TD passes through their first 8 starts than Jones. He did that with no one resembling Ronnie Stanley or Marshal Yanda on his o-line. He did that in spite of a head coach who's not 1% of John Harbaugh. Shepard isn't playing. Engram isn't healthy. Barkley has played a quarter and a half at full strength in Jones' 8 starts. Tate was suspended for 2 of Jones' starts.
Lamar has played well, but he has a LOT working in his favor. Daniel Jones has little to nothing working in his favor. Yet Darius Slayton has more TD receptions than Odell, Julian Edelman, Julio Jones, DeAndre Hopkins, Travis Kelce, and a bunch of other names. Calm down with the "He's throwing much better than Daniel Jones. Period." nonsense. Why can't "Lamar is playing exceptionally right now" suffice?
He is a unicorn. You don't know what you are seeing if you are even watching at all.
Genuinely curious as to how old you are, because not sure if you even remember much of Vick's prime years or if there is recency bias at work here. Lamar Jackson is NOT an order of magnitude better than Vick as a runner (or a thrower, for that matter). Vick could chuck it 45-50 yards on the run with decent accuracy. He also ran a 4.33 40 at the NFL combine. He also ran with exceptional agility and good vision and balance.
Jackson didn't run a 40 at the combine or his pro day. I think Vick is a fair comp for Jackson. They are very similar. They are on the same level as a runner, which is high praise for Jackson. Griffin isn't on the same level as Vick and Jackson. But to say Jackson is "an order of magnitude better than Vick as a runner" is a complete fabrication and ridiculous hyperbole where none is needed. Look up Vick's career highlights if you want, they are on YouTube. Jackson may break Vick's single season rushing record for a QB at 1,039 yards, but he'll do it on significantly more carries, and in a much more offensive-friendly NFL. Vick did it on 123 carries. Jackson is at 788 yards on 115 carries. Stats aside, they are very similar players, but this crowning of Jackson before he's accomplished anything but some regular season stats and some highlight reel runs...it's been done before and what the Falcons (and Eagles, to a lesser degree), got out of it was only that...some great highlights without any postseason success, in a short (prime) window.
We can review their careers in another 10-12 years if you'd like, I'll take Jones or even Josh Allen over Jackson any day, and we'll see how the chips fall. I don't think Jackson is an accurate passer on outside hashmarks on deep and intermediate throws. That was my assessment of him prior to the draft, I haven't seen a ton of him this year but I've seen some, and sometimes his throws are just puzzling still from what I've seen.
He is a unicorn. You don't know what you are seeing if you are even watching at all.
We should be clamoring for unicorns? Exactly how many of them are out there?
history. Flacco was 10-5 in 15 post-season games. He holds the record for most road wins by a QB, with 7.
Joe has one of the highest playoff passer ratings. Taking out his first 2 seasons,Flacco had a 92.1 or higher passer rating in 9 of 10 post-season games.He had a touchdown-to-interception ratio of 24-4.
Joe had a debilitating injury that hampered his passing and mobility.
Flacco was an extraordinary playoff QB.
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In comment 14681778 Mendenhall64 said:
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In comment 14681775 smshmth8690 said:
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In comment 14681767 Mendenhall64 said:
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Perhaps it is time for you to switch your allegiance.
No, he is going to start at least 3 a week.
Jackson is having a remarkable year so far, and the OP wants to make sure that you realize it.
Well, I wanted him in the second round but the Ravens traded up in front of the Giants to take him. Unfortunately, he's not a Giant and neither are a lot of good players but we don't see all of these threads about them.
The Giants were not among him if he fell 2 more picks. Everyone gets to speculate and think DG the genius would have undoubtedly taken LJ but come on, could you ever see the Giants FO being an that unconventional? I wanted him more than anything and wanted to trade up into the mid 1st to get him but I knew the Giants were never going to. It’s just a fact you come to live with rooting for certain franchises— the Giants have always and will always do it “by the book”, at least as long as the owner’s name is Mara.
How do you for sure they wouldn't take him? Taking a Heisman winner is "unconventional" when you need a QB?
In the Giants' case, yes, taking a Lamar Jackson, Heisman trophy winner, would have been unconventional. It's the same way Charlie Casserly said he could "never see the New York Football Giants drafting a 5-9 QB" in Murray. Despite Murray being a Heisman winner. I actually think Murray would have been more likely than Jackson to the Giants, almost no one believed Lamar Jackson could be successful throwing the ball from the pocket which has been what this franchise has most valued in QBs since the beginning of its existence. I don't think I'm alone on this board in thinking that the Giants would have never taken LJ even if given the chance at #34 (which would have been disappointing to see and live with so I'm glad the Ravens took him anyway).
As for Daniel Jones, he led the NFL weeks 8 through 10 in touchdown passes.
Playing horrific defenses like Detroit and the Jets tends to help.
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As for Daniel Jones, he led the NFL weeks 8 through 10 in touchdown passes.
Playing horrific defenses like Detroit and the Jets tends to help.
Nothing more horrific as the Giants
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comparing RG3 and even Vick to Lamar is an order of magnitude better as a runner than those guys. And he is better than both those guys as a passer.
He is a unicorn. You don't know what you are seeing if you are even watching at all.
Genuinely curious as to how old you are, because not sure if you even remember much of Vick's prime years or if there is recency bias at work here. Lamar Jackson is NOT an order of magnitude better than Vick as a runner (or a thrower, for that matter). Vick could chuck it 45-50 yards on the run with decent accuracy. He also ran a 4.33 40 at the NFL combine. He also ran with exceptional agility and good vision and balance.
Jackson didn't run a 40 at the combine or his pro day. I think Vick is a fair comp for Jackson. They are very similar. They are on the same level as a runner, which is high praise for Jackson. Griffin isn't on the same level as Vick and Jackson. But to say Jackson is "an order of magnitude better than Vick as a runner" is a complete fabrication and ridiculous hyperbole where none is needed. Look up Vick's career highlights if you want, they are on YouTube. Jackson may break Vick's single season rushing record for a QB at 1,039 yards, but he'll do it on significantly more carries, and in a much more offensive-friendly NFL. Vick did it on 123 carries. Jackson is at 788 yards on 115 carries. Stats aside, they are very similar players, but this crowning of Jackson before he's accomplished anything but some regular season stats and some highlight reel runs...it's been done before and what the Falcons (and Eagles, to a lesser degree), got out of it was only that...some great highlights without any postseason success, in a short (prime) window.
We can review their careers in another 10-12 years if you'd like, I'll take Jones or even Josh Allen over Jackson any day, and we'll see how the chips fall. I don't think Jackson is an accurate passer on outside hashmarks on deep and intermediate throws. That was my assessment of him prior to the draft, I haven't seen a ton of him this year but I've seen some, and sometimes his throws are just puzzling still from what I've seen.
yes an order of magnitude at least. I am probably older than you. I have been watching football since the early 70s. Long enough for you? How long have YOU been watching football?
As a passer there is literally no comparison. Jackson is putting up perfect passing days. Vick always struggled to pass consistently. Burt even as a runner Lamar is surpassing Vick quite handily. As a starter he is almost double Vick's production on a per game basis and he will smash the QB rushing record in his first full season. I would add, Lamar out of the gate is an MVP candidate, at the age of 22. I don't think in his entire career Vick was a serious MVP candidate. Vick was a wilder player than Lamar, less consistent and less productive. It is early but there is right now no comparison between them. The link here compares Vick and Lamar stats - as of Oct 2019.
Lamar Jackson isn’t Michael Vick — he’s better - ( New Window )
LJ, at age 22 with 17 starts under his belt, already has 19 TDs in 10 games this season, completing 66% of his passes with a YPA of 8.1. Vick had the better arm, yeah, but LJ is obviously the better passer.
Not ever running quarterback is Vick. Vick himself says Lamar is a better passer.
figgy, why do you harass me? We're here to talk football. Unless you are some kind of board cop maybe you should shut your pie hole. Or do you get off on pretending to have some authority because maybe you have none in your actual life..
please help me here. how is anything i am doing is trolling? i am here to talk football on an NGT thread. Who am i badgering? It seems you are badgering me. i think you are the troll in this instance. But maybe I am wrong. Please educate me.
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As for Daniel Jones, he led the NFL weeks 8 through 10 in touchdown passes.
Playing horrific defenses like Detroit and the Jets tends to help.
The only other QB who played both teams fairly recently is Dak Prescott. Let's compare numbers...
Dak: 57/86, 66% comp. %, 722 passing yards, 3 TDs, 0 INTs
Jones: 54/81, 67% comp. %, 630 passing yards, 8 TDs, 0 INTs
Horrific defenses or not, Jones performed at a level that any reasonable person should find laudable. Doesn't mean we should start getting Jones fitted for a gold jacket, but the idea he's inferior to Jackson as a passer is asinine.