Hello BBI, 1st time poster with a war and peace length dissertation to digest yet, I am hardly a newbie to this site. Been coming to BBI ten times a day for what must be 20 years now. This site has been and remains an integral part of my daily existence. I have always been content to just read the daily back and forth banter without being compelled to post myself. Given the state of neurosis consuming so many fellow Giant fans these days, I finally feel a strong urge to finally participate. So many on here are angry and disgruntled and I get that. Years of putrid football evokes an emotional beat down over time. From my perspective though, the anger and rathe of so many is fundamentally misguided and misplaced. Despite all the negative noise in both the media and on this site, the needle is positively pointing upward for our beloved Giants. Unfortunately, many are unable to recognize it yet because of the years of recurring loosing seasons that seem to flow and blur together. Though these loosing seasons seem to flow as one continuous body of work, that is simply not the case. There is a distinct demarcation line between management regimes and that will be a recurring theme here. In any sport, you can historically see when franchises have toiled and labored in mediocrity for years and where their fortunes began to rise again. Many times it was the result of regime change. My sole intention is to convince not all, but many and Eric with a thoughtfully conceived treatise that this franchise is positively in good hands and on the rise again. So who the hell am I? Just another old dude I guess with too much to say. For some perspective, I was at the 62 Championship game against the pack at Yankee stadium with my dad. Had a 4 seat front row box for the Giants till Metlife was built. Let my seats go because of the hundred K upfront cost. I had know way of knowing when the Giants lost the Championship to the Bears that following year in 63 that I would be in my thirties before my team would sniff the playoffs again. The best years of my youth are littered with the remnants of incompetent football. It took a league intervention to turn the franchise around. First thing big George did was draft Simms and it was not a popular choice. Two years later he grabbed LT, courtesy of the 2nd pick in the draft. Young is considered the best GM this franchise has ever had, yet it still took him 8 years to get to the Super Bowl. There were many ups and downs on the march towards the 1986 Championship team. Hell, Parcells was almost run out of town before he became the legend go the Big Tuna. The fact is, the prior 19 years of horrific football had no bearing on Young when he became GM. The distinct demarcation line for Young was 1979, not 1964. From that point on, the clock started ticking on his management and player personnel decisions. Even though those early loosing seasons under Young seemed to flow concurrently with the prior 19, that was not the case. The fortunes of the franchise from that point on were on the rise, it was just difficult to recognize under the circumstances of continued loosing. Likewise, the prior 7 years of loosing under Reece has nothing to do with Gettleman. Yes, Giant ownership has made mistakes, Mr. Mara is loyal to a fault. Yet, they stuck with Reece for a good reason. Two Super Bowls were won early in his tenure and that unfortunately earned him more slack than he ultimately deserved. From my perspective, Reece's tenure has parallel similarities to the Yankees GM Cashman. In 1998, Brian took over one of the greatest teams ever assembled and takes the credit for four championship wins in five years for a team essentially built by Gene Michael. He has just one Championship in the last 20 years since, but this is a topic for another day. So, go on line and google the 2006 Giant roster. 95% of the key personnel were already in place when Reece became GM. Yes, he had a very nice draft his first year in 2007 with great contributions from some of his choices. When you truly asses the situation though, Reece never built a great team here. Those two Bowl winning teams were pedestrian at best compiling 10-7 and 9-7 season records respectively. They barely made it into the dance. Yes, they got hot at the right time of the year leading to Championship runs, but no serious student of the game looks upon those teams as being great. Yet, those two Super Bowl victories created the illusion that Reece was a brilliant GM and player evaluator. Ironically, the 2008 team was the best under Reece. Defending Champs and the clear class of the league at 11-1 until it literally shot itself in the leg. I will get into the specifics of Reece's Draft record when we discuss the current regime. First, let's look at several other NFL rebuilds starting with everyone's flavor of the moment, the 49ers. The first two seasons under the triumvirate of Lynch, Shanahan and Saleh, the Niners were 6-10 and 4-12 ending with the second slot in the 2019 draft. With his first draft in 2019, Lynch selected Soloman Thomas #3 overall and Ruben Foster at #31. Foster now resides on the Redskins IR and Soloman has been a top of the draft bust. Now in his third season, he still can't crack the starting lineup and his play has been pedestrian at best. If that had taken place here, Lynch would be tar and feathered on this site. Last years 2018 Niner defense under Saleh set historical records for defensive futility. They accumulated just two interceptions while 40 players around the league had as many or more. The team had just seven takeaways for the entire season breaking the previous NFL worst of 11 total takeaways. How bad were the Niners last year? Hell, we gave them a beat down out in SF last year. So what suddenly turned it around, because so many here are under the delusion that it happened over night. How about six years of high octane draft resources into the front 7 sprinkled with a savvy trade and some key free agent additions and voila, you have a juggernaut. Eric Reid 13/1, Jimmy Ward 14/1, Arik Armstead 15/1 #17, Deforest Buckner 16/1 #7, Soloman Thomas 71/1 #3, and Nick Bosa 19/1 #2. Clearly a defensive foundation has been being laid in SF for years yet, Lynch did not draft most of those players, he inherited them. So what really tipped the scales and turned the worst defense into perhaps the league's best? Years of top pf the draft capital was put over the top by the Bosa pick at #2, the trade for Dee Ford and the free agent addition of Kwon Alexander. Add Richard Sherman last year and you now have defense stacked with talent. Juxtapose this against the draft capital Gettleman has had at his disposal to this point. Any comparison is frankly absurd. Bosa and Ford are the number one and two ranked edge rushers in the league and have transformed what was a seriously underperforming unit into a beast. I wonder what these two additions could do for our defense next year? Now Shanahan and Saleh are both the toast of BBI, brilliant coaches in their third seasons. I do not recall anyone clamoring for their services last year on this site. Let's take a look at the Jerry Jones/Jimmy Johnson Cowboys. Jones took over the team in 1989, but I consider the rebuild starting with the selection of Michael Irvin the previous season with the 11th overall pick. Jones/Johnson subsequently drafted Aikman #1/1989, Emmit Smith #17/1990, Russel Maryland #1/1991 and Alvin Harper #12/1991. They also traded for Tony Casillas, the #2 overall pick in the 1986 draft. The Hershel Walker trade netted them unprecedented draft capital. In 1991, the Cowboys had 11 picks in the first 4 rounds consisting of 3 first rounders, 1 2nd, 3 third rounders and 4 4th rounders. They had 18 picks in total. Read those crazy numbers again. In 1992, they again had two first rounders and two second rounders. There has never been a franchise with insane draft capital like this, prior to or after. My point is that even with this over-the-top wealth of draft riches, it still took them 5 years to get to the Super Bowl. Aikman's first year 1989, the Cowboys finished 1-15. The future Hall of Fam-er threw just 9 TD's juxtaposed against 18 interceptions. He was knocked around that year like a rag doll. It's called growing pains and most of the great ones have gone through it. It's learning to play in a man's league, the baddest on the planet. Jones and Johnson put most of their high end resources into elite offensive skill players, QB, RB , and two WRS. The other was the center piece of the defensive line, Russel Maryland. Does any of this draft pattern look familiar here the last two years? So let's compare these rebuilds to the to the current Giant regime, a regime just one and a half years in. The indisputable reality is this is a regime in its infancy. Just as prior 19 years had nothing to do with Young, the Last 7 years under Reece have nothing to do with Gettleman. There is a distinct demarcation line for Gettleman and it is 2018. The simple fact is DG inherited a football roster bereft of talent caused by a draft record of futility maybe unmatched. Here is Reece's first round draft record: Aaron Ross 2007, Kenny Philips 2008, Hakeem Nicks 2009, JPP 2010, Prince 2011, David Wilson, Justin Pugh 2013, OBJ 2014, Flowers 2015, Apple 2016, and Ingram 2017. This resume of drafting is abysmal. It is hard to fathom that there is only one player from this list left on our team in Evan Ingram. Compare that with the 49er roster. Every 1st round pick for the past 7 years is still there and contribution in a big way, sans Thomas. And I did not even mention Mike McGlinchey, the 2018 1st rounder. JPP had one stellar season in 2011. He had 18 sacks and was a force in winning the Super Bowl that year. Kudos for that, but he never came close to that level of play again. Beckham is the real deal. Unfortunately, he is a me-first-media-hound head case and it was a brilliant move to jettison his butt out of here. Good riddance. It was worth it for big Dex alone. So here is my declaration BBI. I submit that Gettleman is in the early stages of constructing one of the best teams in franchise history, most just can see it occurring yet. I do not put forth this claim in an empty vacuum. Simply put, he has quickly acquired resources for this team the likes we have never possessed before. One, the Giants have never had a QB with the skill set of Daniel Jones. Not Phil, not Eli, not Charlie, not YA. Jone's possesses an intriguing package of accuracy, touch, poise, mobility, speed, toughness and intelligence. His rookie growing pains are for a separate post, we all know what hey are. I have watched hundreds of young QBs enter the league over the years. I know the goods when I see it and Jones has the goods. I think he will be a force in this league in two to three years leading this team for a very long time. Two, this team has never had a RB with the skill set of Barkley. Hell, the NFL has had few prospects with this kids measurables, both physical and intangible. Someone recently posted a video of Max Kellerman and Stephen A. Smith discussing this very subject. That video say's all you need to know. The fact so many on this site are giving up on this kid already is really quite disturbing. Three, this team has never had a nose tackle with the size and skill set of big Dex. Not Howard, Not Burt, Not Snacks. Nobody. Many seem to forget this dude should be in his senior year at Clemson. He is a man child learning in the toughest trenches of them all. Do you think this kid can get bigger and stronger? You bet your ass he can. He is 21 years old. It is freighting to think what he will be like after a couple of NFL off-season workout programs, especially for the guys lining up across from him. This is exactly how you start a total rebuild of a defense, with an athletic monster to control the center of the line. Four, we have never had 3 first round picks before. We had two once in 1984. That kind of draft capital fast tracks a rebuild in the right direction. Five, ever since Russel Wilson came into the league, the buzz has been about those envious teams with the young QB playing on a rookie contract freeing up large amounts of dollars to enrich the rest of the roster. The Rams/Goff, Atlanta/Ryan, Eagles/Wentz, Cowboys/Zac. All these teams have reached the Super Bowl except our beloved Cowboys. Well BBI, starting this up coming off-season, we are now that team and DG is the one who got us there. Each year you only get a limited number of premium draft assets to construct your team. The two highest were used on skilled offensive talent, QB and RB, just like the Jones/Johnson lead Cowboys. Our team has a storied defensive tradition and we all long for a competent D once again. Yet this is an offensive driven league now. The offensive side of the ball has all the advantages in todays NFL. This is not the 1980's Taylor era of football anymore. Yearly rule changes continue to stack the deck in favor of the offense. Build a juggernaut offense and you will succeed in this league. Either way, Gettleman has spread his initial assets quite evenly to both sides of the ball. Both sides needed a complete rebuild and that is a hell of a lot of bodies to replace in a short period of time. So, despite the bad quality of football we are presently enduring, these are exciting times. Key foundational pieces to this football team are now in place, now the job needs to be finished. This will be one of the most important off-seasons in our team's history. Embrace this rebuild, it should be something to enjoy. Finally, I want to give a shout out to Eric in Lieu of your "How to fix the Giants" post. You do not know me, but I feel like I know you somewhat. I have read hundreds of your posts over the years, seen pictures and video of you. If I bumped into you on the street I would recognize you. So I know you in that very limited sense. I have always thought of you as the rock on this site, not because you own it but by the way you conduct yourself and convey your thoughts. You are the person that can always be relied on for intelligent discourse and a measured response to a fellow poster. Most importantly, I have always looked to you as the one who knows most where this team is currently at and the things it really needs to help it improve. Which is why I find your post "How to fix the Giants" so bewildering. Like you, I also think the Giants have been a broken franchise. However, I think that broken period in our history came to end last year. I think you are missing the demarcation line of 2018 between regime change. I disagree with most of your conclusions. Gettleman weak and old? Picking on our GM's age is quite frankly an insult to the many older posters who reside on this site. Quite contrary, I find DG's battle over cancer a positive, not a negative. It is a testament to the man's grit and determination. He has an unwavering, firm and steadfast conviction. It takes balls of brass to stand up to the mob that is the media and fan base. The scrutiny and criticism he has endured has been nothing short of cruel and unwarranted. The man does it his way and I thank the heavens for that, other wise Barkley and Jones would be members of other NFL franchises. You spoke of his bad free agent acquisitions. Exactly what is your list of players he both should have and could have signed, and with what dollars. Do you really think the 35 year old Bethea was considered a long term solution? They were looking for bodies to plug the many holes with little cash to compete for the better players. The Solder signing was an imperative, we were desperate to replace Flowers and he was the only real option. You want to replace Shurmur. Fine, because I do not really know if he is the answer or not. What I do know is Parcells did not look so hot initially. Little Bill in Cleveland? Shanahan and Saleh were at the bottom of the heap last year with a roster far superior to ours. Boy wonder McVie not looking so hot this year. How many examples do we need? Simply put, I think a coach, any coach needs talented players to win and we just do not have enough yet. I also do not believe we are years and years away from competing. If implemented correctly, this team will be more than competitive with just two more off-seasons of player acquisitions. I think DG knows what he is doing and will complete the mission, apparently you do not. Where I do agree with you is the awful record of player acquisition that has occurred for so long. But let's place the blame where it solely belongs and there again lies that demarcation line. I previously stated the full list of Jerry Reece's first round draft picks. Let me finish this post with the rest of the Reece and that arrogant idiot Marc Ross's draft choices. Every single one. Clint Sintim, William Beatty, Ramses Barden, Travis Beckum, Andre Brown, Rhett Bomar, Deandre Wright, Stoney Woodson ,Rueben Randle, Jayron Hosley, Adrien Robinson, Brandon Mosley, Matt McCants, Markus Kuhn, Marvin Austin, Jerel Jernigan, James Brewer, Greg Jones, Damotre Moore, Ryan Nassib, Cooper Taylor, Eric Herman Michael Cox, Philip Dillard, Adrian Tracy, Matt Dodge, Davis Webb, Avery Bisnowaty, Jay Bromley, Andre Williams, Nat Berhe, Bennet Jackson, Odighizuwa, Mykkele Thompson, Geremy Davis, Bobby Hart, Darien Thompson, B.J. Goodsen, Paul Perkins and Jerell Adams. Wow, when you see the list presented in front of you, it is really something to behold. Truth be told, a Monkey with a dart board would yield a better result. And people are bewildered why we are so bad right now. Eric, you you should start a game on here called "find a player on this list who is still in the NFL". This Abortion of draft choices has created a monumental hole for any GM to crawl out of. Thank God we have a pro to tackle the job. So in closing, I thank my lucky stars everyday that Mr. Gettleman is our GM. The rest of you should too. Thank you Mr. Gettleman.
I hope you are correct.
I am not as down on Gettleman as many here are. Shurmur, while showing decent play design and above average play calls, leaves much to be desired in game management and in game adjustments. His overall record sucks balls and I like am not sure if he is the answer.
Bettcher is implementing a very complex defense and we simply do not have the players to run it. Maybe this offseason will bring an upgrade at Edge, LB, FS and we might see what a NYG defense is supposed to look like.
I agree Reese And Ross destroyed this franchise and it will take at least another 2 years to become a competitive team. I’m not going anywhere so I will try to enjoy the ride.
Thanks for a great read! Let’s go Blue!
we have ever had. He has a long, long road ahead to achieve that goal. I did say
that he has the most complete package of skills of any QB or prospect at the
position we have had. He has to make it come true. Yes, YA was everything you
describe, but remember he was nearing the end of his career when he became a
Giant in 1961. Not as old as me, but old for QB in that era of football. Those wheels
were not quite as athletic anymore.
(-) I like your style. You have a casual way with writing that is refreshing and to the point - althohugh granted you have a lot of them. :)
(1) Your assessment of previous issues is fairly consistent with my own. Our drafting was horrid between circa 2011 - 2017, and we failed to address obvious positions.
(2) Your dismissal of a problem in Mara "being loyal to a fault" and therefore being unable to be held accountable is not something I can agree with. That is a problem and contributed greatly to our current position and it continues to be something plaguing our management decision making.
(3) Your assessment of our near future potential, which you declared as leading to the "greatest Giants team ever" is, candidly, hard to see in any light but a walk down a primrose path. I'm sorry to say that you're own evidence fails to come close to living up to your weighty words. You listed five reason why we're soon to have the greatest giants team ever: Daniel Jones, Barkely, Dex, the combination of jones+dex+baker, and then Jones again. Come again now? How many times do you get to repeat things. I'm sorry to say but having a good looking young QB, a fantastic RB, and good looking DT does in no way support us soon having the great Giants team ever. I mean come on.
(4) You go after Eric for saying something about Gettlemen's age. I don't really know what he said and I don't get your main point in this section regardless, because you seem to end up by saying, without providing any evidence, that Eric is wrong about the franchise is broken because we now have Gettlemen who is its savior.
(5) You cite the 9ers as a team who's been rebuilding since 2013 as an example for us. I don't understand how this ties to your point we're around the corner from greatest Giants team ever. We have no deep seated positions of strength on this roster.
(6) You turn around Gettlemen's bad FA acquisitions into an indictment about Reese's drafting. But they can both be true! Gettlemen can have done a really bad job with FAs AND Reese can have done a bad drop drafting. Those are not mutually exclusive as you position them. Even the most generous reading of your point here doesn't hold up: Gettlemen doesn't absolved from making decisions when selecting new players in FA because it was Reese's fault those positions were weak. Gettlemen selected the players and he is accountable for them! There's no way around that.
(7) In the end I fear that you are exactly right, Gettlemen is creating a team based on what a great team looked like in the early 90s - i.e. Dallas. Before the salary cap. Before analytics. Before the evolution of the college game. Before any player in next year's upcoming draft was born. Now I'm not saying to ignore history. It should be know that is done at one's own peril. I'm saying that is ignoring the last 30 years history and what the game has now become. And it is worrisome if we are going to ignore major progress in human ability to decrease risk and position ourselves for better outcomes.
(PS) I find it weird you have nothing but over the top positive things to say about Gettlemen, and can find nothing on which to acknowledge reasonable criticism of him. I don't question your motives but it's pretty weird to be watching the same team I am and thinking to yourself everything is great, the people running this team are great, and goshdarnit I'm happy with how things are going.
I think questioning exactly what is going is quite legitimate and called for. Until we start winning no one gets an easy pass.
Solder, Stewart, Omameh, are some of thecbad signings on offense, although I will say Solder was the best option at the time, and part of the issues with the sacks this year have been Jones hanging into the ball too long.
This team has lots of young talent and DG is doing a great job with the draft.
People too often point to his stop in Cleveland as an example of a total bust but he was actually doing a fantastic job of reshaping that organization, and his influence carried over to some of the organizational people who went with them to Baltimore.
Belichick is a poor analogy for a guy like Shurmur.
Jones is the greatest of all time.
The Niners turned it around in one year.
Young needed 8 years to get to the Super Bowl.
Reese was misjudged.
Mara's serial missteps are the result of too much loyalty.
etc etc etc.
Please.
I am not going to touch Jones because he's the 3rd rail around here. Suffice it to say that it takes strong medication to put him above Tittle, Tarkenton (the OP forgot to mention that HOF'r), Simms and Manning after a whole 8 game career.
His recitation of history is faulty as well. Young took a team that hadn't made the playoffs in 17 years and had it in the playoffs where they beat the Eagles in his 3rd year. (one would think that such a long time fan still in possession of his faculties would have remembered that). The 82 season was shortened by a stike. After Parcells' inaugural 3-12-1 season in 83, the team made the playoffs in 84, 85 and won the SB in 86. Young didn't off every player he inherited and guys like Carson, Van Pelt, Benson, and Martin were still with the team. There wasn't this fire sale and decent into the abyss we have experienced under Gettleman.
Reese became GM of a team that had already made the playoffs the prior two years but is now anointed as the architect of two SB winners?? Certainly his supposed vast skills completely deserted him after about 2009 to the point where his boss needed to pony up 100 million for players, players which Gettleman proceeded to unload at flea market prices two years later. Reese stunk, he is sitting on the sidelines, never to be a GM again.
Mara's pratfalls have been the result of his own poor evaluation skills and worse judgment. "Too much loyalty" has had nothing to do with this.
Everyone forgets the Niners fortunes are tied to Garappolo and that they showed early signs of a turnaround. They are something like 19-3 when he starts at qb. In 2017, the Niners won 6 of their last 7 games so they had already started to turn things around. In 2018, Garappolo missed 12 games and the Niners played half their games with their 3rd string qb. The Niners more closely resemble the 1979-1981 Giants tha the Dave G crash and burn. According to the Niner miracle turnaround view of the world, the Giants will come out and go 8-0 next season. Wake us when that happens.
I think the point about the Niners is that it was not a one year or even two year transition.
And when many cite the few "sudden" turnarounds as if its easy, I remind us that that citation is 1-3 examples out of 32 teams over 5-10 years. Or 3 examples out of a possible 320 ( should take teams like the Pats out of the sample). Yeah sudden turnarounds are possible but statistically not sizeable to use as a reasonable expectation.
Next, what I read into was the very long long long list of draft failures. When you have to field 53 players and can only draft 6-8 per year, you wind up with long shots and risky FA. Id imagine UDFA and second tier FA have a 30% success rate ( and the FA tie up cap).
Draft well and churn fast is kind of the most common play until you get some traction is the submitted argument as I read it.
The major argument I read is patience and this I agree with except for the HC and assistant coaches. With the modern NFL training rules the coaches have to be great and I don't see evidence of that. Id churn as if they were FA that didn't work as hoped. DG knows how to churn player mistakes. Honestly, if he doesn't churn the coaches this offseason, then my patience during this phase of "too early to tell compared to a reasonable performance cycle for a GM" is going to go down as well.
As for the optimism, even while acknowledging its too soon to tell (and that the crazy level of magical thinking pessimism and knee jerk solutions is not supported either), I still don't see the peak you see.
I see some solid building blocks and 2-3 years to go provided no major injuries to those building blocks. Jones feels reckless and loose to me. A 340 pound person is one knee or one back from being on a very hard to recover path.
Its pretty fragile and slippery in NYG world right now.
Which, completely fits this Giants team - awful. I wouldn't go pointing any fingers at anyone calling them neurotic when you're that separated from reality.
People too often point to his stop in Cleveland as an example of a total bust but he was actually doing a fantastic job of reshaping that organization, and his influence carried over to some of the organizational people who went with them to Baltimore.
Belichick is a poor analogy for a guy like Shurmur.
This is a really smart reminder. Because this is exactly what happened. The Browns were were definitely trending up but then that announcement to move was like a pin in a balloon. Just crushing.
And that Belichick staff was stacked during his Cleveland tenure - Ozzie Newsome, Saban, Ferentz, Groh...even his current CIA director, Ernie Adams. ;)
Oddly enough his OL coach was Hal Hunter. The father of our "great" OL coach, Hal Hunter...
Let’s add up every coach/gm tandem that won 5 games or less in their first two seasons and then let’s see how many of those coach/gm tandems went on to lead dynasties and how many of them inevitably got canned without any real progress and left their organization in need of yet another rebuild. I bet anything the second list is at least 20 times longer than the first. Another good example of this kind of flawed thinking is when you talk about Pat Shurmur and say “Bill Belichick also had bad start to his coaching career.” Again, let’s compare the list of head coaches who had bad starts to their head coaching careers who ended up not being successful coaches to those who ended up being Bill Belichick.
In the absence of the ability to see the future, all we fans can do is play the percentages. Yes, sometimes teams that look like the Giants do right now ultimately turn it around and win. But far more teams that look like the Giants do right now just keep on losing and keep selling their fans on the future and the next rebuild because they have nothing else to sell. You seem eager to buy what is currently being sold. But all it is is a lottery ticket and your attempts to convince the non-believers otherwise are unpersuasive.
Bravo.
Thanks for a laugh I needed it. Definitely Gettlemans burnet BBI account
Thank you op!
At 59, I'm getting up there too.
I can’t agree on Shurmur though. As a long time Giants fans ( I am 60), we know what well coached teams look like. Very few mistakes, opportunistic, crisp play, smart in game adjustments, good clock management. Over his tenure, Shurmur has disappointed on all counts. I can’t recall him admitting to any mistakes either which is a red flag for me. I was fine with his selection in the beginning, but now I think we need a new voice.
I am okay with Gettleman continuing to buy the groceries, but we need a better cook.
Don't forget DGs totally incompetent rebuild of the O-line!
Fantastic post, probably the most well thought out post I've seen on this board in a very long time, thank you for making the effort to put it together.
The last paragraph of all the Jerry Reese draft picks... Wow! You don't realize how bad it was until its put in front of you. 100% the reason we have no depth on the team at all, we had no base to build on.
At the time I preferred making Wilks our own and having him take some of his growing pains as a young coach while we are still accumulating the talent.
At this point now I find Dan Campbell and Kris Richard to be very intriguing.
Thank you for this. Sometimes I feel like Im taking crazy pills especially when I read Eric's post -whom I consider a well thought out fan.
I am very excited to see what kind of team Get can build I hope the fans wake up. Just sticking to his guns and drafting Dan Jones where he did proves he has a plan and vision for this team.
Dex is highly unappreciated -that is a the cornerstone of our D. and then adding LWilliams who will be signed IMO we have a potential monster line in the making.
Reese was abysmal totally agree and have been pointing it out for 10+ yrs. He got all caught up in his genius lol.
Finally Epstein didn't kill himself
Agree. I also don’t fall in line with the “arrow is pointing up” stuff. Ridding ourselves of Shurm and DG though might start to really move it though.
I am an old dude like the OP. I lived thru the sixties and seventies bad teams. I remember when Parcells and Young were the "wrong" guys before they found success.
I still believe that Gettleman needs more time to turn the corner with this franchise. Don't believe he has the "right" coach and needs to address it. Even us old guys can be patient.
Welcome aboard giant power.
I friggin love you!
Well done, sir! Bravo!
Subsequent to the decision performance and injury based limitations by Solder are not on Gettleman. Before we play contract objections; lets acknowledge that the delta from the performance to pay is off by 30% of a reasonable expectation.
This line of reasoning about decisions versus being upset at the subsequent result is where the DG is awful crowd loses me.
Mistakes on other FA I get (projections and gambles on Stewart and Omenah and some of the ex Cardinals). Outrage because Solder has not performed I don't get. I think its halo effect bias because the guy used to be in the NYG organization. Which is not a pro or a con.
We claim he is not going to change the Giants way but ignore the changes to scouting and scouts and how we prioritize in the draft. I think a lot of us unconsciously cherry pick a lot on Gettleman to make it conform to a preexisting bias.
I simply don't understand how anyone can think they have enough information to call him good, bad or indifferent.
To me, I will jump on good bad or indifferent when and if he changes the coaching after the season. Being bold in that regard ahead instead of behind the likely outcome of PS and crew would be sufficiently rebut the charge of continued devotion to a "feeble Giants way "
imo.
Sorry to wind up re-trying an old case for the 100th time
- Ross was his decision?
- Change in the way the draft board is put together
- Change in the way scouting time is prioritized and what they look for.
- Different emphasis on finding useful UFDA
- Some scouts "left" ( but I don't know if that was normal or encouraged)
That's memory of tidbits. Id have to look it up. Which I will
Barkley - huge disappointment this year. Yes, the o-line stinks, but they stunk last year too.
Hernandez - has been a functional starter, but as Sy has pointed out, he hasn't improved at all from last year.
Carter - he'll make a play or two per game and be invisible aside from those.
Hill - He's been so good this year that the Giants are willing to pay through the nose in picks and a future FA contract for Leonard Williams.
Lauletta - gone
McIntosh - zero impact
Beal - Has only just now gotten on the field after a year and a half. We'll see what he does if he can stay on it.
Jones - has shown much more than expected. Still has a long way to go.
Lawrence - has the makings of an impact player. We'll see if he gets there.
Baker - major disappointment. Has had his moments but has also looked really bad sometimes, plus seems to have a questionable motor.
Ximenes - little impact. Looks slow as molasses out there.
Love - has had trouble getting on the field despite Bethea being a disaster. We'll see how he does now that he's getting some burn.
Connelly - was looking like a steal in his brief stint before the ACL. Hope he can come back 100%.
D. Slayton - pleasant surprise, but he looks more like a future Mario Manningham than a Nicks or Cruz.
Asafo-Adjei - IR, probably never amounts to anything
C. Slayton - practice squad
So there it is. Hardly an eye-opening collection of talent.
The Solder deal describes a massive miscalc of both Eli and this team when DG took over. Further, throwing monies around making average free agents in decline the highest paid players in the league is foolish. We can’t have one good step taken for every bad one...we will never get out of the abyss.
It goes to heart of the matter if this General Manager has a plan or is he just guessing? Does his plan change every few months or are these slight pivots? And do we really think he is the guy that can turn this team around based on what he has shown to date?
I've said for some time that great teams come from great drafts, period. This is the history of every Giant Superbowl winner and most other great teams - show me a Super Bowl winner, I'll show you at least 3 consecutive verygood-great drafts.
Great post - thank you and sorry they screwed you out of your seats.
Barkley - huge disappointment this year. Yes, the o-line stinks, but they stunk last year too.
Hernandez - has been a functional starter, but as Sy has pointed out, he hasn't improved at all from last year.
Carter - he'll make a play or two per game and be invisible aside from those.
Hill - He's been so good this year that the Giants are willing to pay through the nose in picks and a future FA contract for Leonard Williams.
Lauletta - gone
McIntosh - zero impact
Beal - Has only just now gotten on the field after a year and a half. We'll see what he does if he can stay on it.
Jones - has shown much more than expected. Still has a long way to go.
Lawrence - has the makings of an impact player. We'll see if he gets there.
Baker - major disappointment. Has had his moments but has also looked really bad sometimes, plus seems to have a questionable motor.
Ximenes - little impact. Looks slow as molasses out there.
Love - has had trouble getting on the field despite Bethea being a disaster. We'll see how he does now that he's getting some burn.
Connelly - was looking like a steal in his brief stint before the ACL. Hope he can come back 100%.
D. Slayton - pleasant surprise, but he looks more like a future Mario Manningham than a Nicks or Cruz.
Asafo-Adjei - IR, probably never amounts to anything
C. Slayton - practice squad
So there it is. Hardly an eye-opening collection of talent.
Truth hurts sometimes. Zero progress for Hernandez, Carter, and Hill from year 1 to year 2 (when many talent guys say players take the biggest jumps most of the time) is not a good sign for their collective long term viability.
Unless you have an absolute pitch-perfect 2005-style draft where you nail 75 percent of the picks, you aren't going to enough quality starters to overcome the mess that Reese made with only a handful of day 1 and 2 selections. That's why I'll give DG credit for the 2019 draft. Missing someone like Baker stings less if you nail Lawrence and Jones. Missing on Love hurts less if you grab Slayton and Connolly (ACL aside). But you need the picks to do that.
I do think this is off base
I don't think it is indicative of society. Why is the burden on us to absorb a poorly formatted block of text? Why should we have to muddle through a wall of words to parse out messages? It doesn't have to do with intelligence, it has to do with courtesy. Putting that much time into a post that will likely not be read because it is unreadable and then casting blame on the readers is more indicative of society. Lack of accountability or personal responsibility.
In fact, it was the software's fault!!
A few thoughts I have been having:
1. Gettlemen is 50/50 at this point - he seems to be drafting better talented players, but is horrific in free agency - whether through evaluation, bad luck, old loyalties, whatever.
2. I seriously question our coaching staff simply for the reason that we have yet to see any 2nd year players actually playing better. Most are regressing. Many of those players flashed or had great 1st years in the league. If this trend continues DJ is going to have a Baker Mayfield type sophomore year next year
3. I get your point about us being neurotic - we do seem to be at a point where we can't even enjoy things like. rookie QB who is actually throwing well or last year having an amazing rookie RB. I think as fans we are the equivalent of Eli behind those OLs. We are essentially shell shocked and can only see bad things at this point.
Thanks again for your take and points - I particularly liked your points on how long it took the SF & Dallas franchises to rebuild.
Most importantly is the clear line of demarcation you are making - the complaints about losing for years simply shouldn't apply in a fair analysis of Dave G or Pat S. They are part of what we've suffered through, but not part of their history.
Again, like your post.
To me the difference in Solder if he performed was insurance allowing a new QB. A prerequisite for a rapid transition if that was available. Having not been privy to any 2018 QB scouting at the time, for all DG knew he was going to find a QB in 2018.
Because to me the Eli decision was: 1) Separate 2) He was insurance.
The only other way was to be truly awful as a team...and risk the health and development of the new QB. If that is what you are advocating...then lets call it the low cost high risk plan. Is that what you are advocating?
As we have seen, new QBs don't feel or even see NFL speed.
When a poster cannot parse this particular decision, anchor it in time and label the downside risks of their proposed alternative - I tune them out on a wide range of their opinions.
That's just me. Its not a big deal. We can all watch and think what we want. We are anyway.
Just wanted to clarify why I don't call it GM malpractice
Most importantly is the clear line of demarcation you are making - the complaints about losing for years simply shouldn't apply in a fair analysis of Dave G or Pat S. They are part of what we've suffered through, but not part of their history.
Again, like your post.
Hi Dan, good to see you posting whether we agree or not.
I don’t get the hysteria and anger here either. Most here thought this was a 5 win team at best. They were right. What to be angry about after a year and a half of a new regime. They are what was expected.
As far as the rest there are some institutional problems at the core of the Giants org. I don't think the Mara's are the worst kinds of owners (like Dolan or Wilpon) because they mostly stay out of the way, but they have proven to be pretty bad at hiring coaches and evaluating their leadership teams. They almost didn't hire Coughlin, they determined he was the problem moreso than Reese, they hired McAdoo, and now it looks like Shurmur is another mistake on the list.
The decision on the head coach this offseason is going to be almost as big as the decision of which young QB to draft early. There is a window coming up where there's a good young foundation of talent and cap room to supplement it. DG will likely add another good player with a top 5 pick. They need to find a coach who can step in and lead the franchise back to winning.