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NFT: NFT: Yankees trade rumors from Dave TE

Matt in SGS : 11/18/2019 11:39 am
Well, who knew that Dave TE goes beyond just his NFL and College Football scouting. His scouting services includes basketball and baseball as well (maybe hockey too).

Anyway, he did a podcast over the weekend with a few Yankee tidbits.

- He said he's hearing that Cole will go to one of the big boys and unlike a usual Boras client, will look to sign earlier than later. Yankees and Dodgers the two biggest contenders for him. If he wants West Coast, he's going to Dodgers

- He thinks the Yankees will talk to Cole and Strausburg, but will end up signing Wheeler from the Mets because they know he's been in the NY scene and he will cost much less than the big 2.

- Yankees are looking to make a splash with a trade. Right now they've got 4 trade chips lined up- Andujar, Frazier, Florial, and Deivi Garcia. Yankees are going to go after Lindor as the Indians know he's going to leave in 2 years and his value is at his highest. If they can't agree to a deal for Lindor, than some part of that package could be used to land Clevinger.

- Didi will end up Cincinnati, especially if the Yankees get Lindor

- Red Sox are screwed with Mookie Betts because everyone knows he's testing free agency no matter what, so the Sox are in a tough spot to trade him. They need to dump money.

Anyway, I could see Wheeler to the Yankees, even though I want Cole. But interesting that he thinks Cole will sign early and not wait until February again. He thinks Boras wants to set the market early and let the rest fall into place with the others.

Ugh, not Wheeler  
Greg from LI : 11/18/2019 11:43 am : link
That guy is going to get so overpaid while pitching like the second coming of Eovaldi.
Cole and Lindor  
Nine-Tails : 11/18/2019 11:43 am : link
Please. We’d be set for years
Lindor doesn't make much sense for NYY...  
Dunedin81 : 11/18/2019 11:44 am : link
But Clevinger certainly would.
Good stuff  
Kyle in NY : 11/18/2019 11:44 am : link
There does seem to be a lot of smoke around Wheeler and the Yankees.

And I'll keep banging the drum for Lindor until that situation is resolved one way or another
Why on Earth would the Indians trade Clevinger?  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 11/18/2019 11:45 am : link
I'm not particularly interested in Wheeler. I don't see the upside that I saw with a pre-trade Gerrit Cole.
That is not much, if any, different  
section125 : 11/18/2019 11:47 am : link
than what we have been hearing, except the early signing of Cole. Cole probably wants to get settled and not be late to ST and screw up the season.

Despite Greg from LI's dislike of Wheeler, I have a feeling that is who the Yankees want. Much cheaper and with the new analytics folks hoping to turn him into Gerrit Cole part deux and that is a possibility.

That is an expensive price for Lindor, but what a great leadoff guy. Move DJLM to the 3 hole behind Judge and in front of Stanton, or leave DJ as leadoff and Lindor to 3 hole?
RE: Ugh, not Wheeler  
Kyle in NY : 11/18/2019 11:47 am : link
In comment 14682499 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
That guy is going to get so overpaid while pitching like the second coming of Eovaldi.


I'm not sure I understand your disdain for Wheeler, besides maybe tweaking Mets fans. He's better than Eovaldi. Coming off two very strong seasons and the underlying numbers mostly check out
Hoping the Yankees do with Cole what they did with CC  
Giantsfan79 : 11/18/2019 11:50 am : link
On day 1 of free agency offer the mega deal and set the market to out price all but a few a teams. If Cole wants to sign quick I hope they reach out.
Cleveland  
DanMetroMan : 11/18/2019 11:53 am : link
apparently has told teams Clevinger is 100% untouchable. Not a FA until after 2023. He's not going anywhere.
RE: Why on Earth would the Indians trade Clevinger?  
Matt in SGS : 11/18/2019 11:53 am : link
In comment 14682505 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
I'm not particularly interested in Wheeler. I don't see the upside that I saw with a pre-trade Gerrit Cole.


I was suprised by that too, but you look at it and he's turning 29 in December. He broke in later and he's arbitration eligible and will cost a pretty penny there. As he enters his 30s, his trade value starts to go down. It seems like the Indians are prioritizing trading guys a little earlier to re-stock their team and trim payroll. Hence the Lindor stuff.
RE: That is not much, if any, different  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 11/18/2019 11:55 am : link
In comment 14682506 section125 said:
Quote:

Despite Greg from LI's dislike of Wheeler, I have a feeling that is who the Yankees want. Much cheaper and with the new analytics folks hoping to turn him into Gerrit Cole part deux and that is a possibility.


Aside from the fact the Yankees have little to no recent history of elevating pitchers from their previous form, all of Wheeler's numbers are inferior to Cole's pre-trade with the slight exception of strikeouts. They can sign Wheeler, but if they're expecting him to be better than a number three starter, I think they're fooling themselves.
A Lindor/Torres  
Dnew15 : 11/18/2019 11:59 am : link
middle infield would be awesome to watch.
Dave TE  
Matt in SGS : 11/18/2019 12:01 pm : link
said the Indians want Frazier back. So any deal that could involve the Indians will include him.
RE: RE: That is not much, if any, different  
section125 : 11/18/2019 12:02 pm : link
In comment 14682520 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 14682506 section125 said:


Quote:



Despite Greg from LI's dislike of Wheeler, I have a feeling that is who the Yankees want. Much cheaper and with the new analytics folks hoping to turn him into Gerrit Cole part deux and that is a possibility.




Aside from the fact the Yankees have little to no recent history of elevating pitchers from their previous form, all of Wheeler's numbers are inferior to Cole's pre-trade with the slight exception of strikeouts. They can sign Wheeler, but if they're expecting him to be better than a number three starter, I think they're fooling themselves.


If they see his "stuff" is upgradeable, then I think they go for him. I haven't a clue. To me Wheeler is a big arm with little meaningful results(probably like you all). Admittedly, that Yanks are better at position player evals, but it is remarkable what they got from Urshela, Voit and Tauchman that other teams did not see.
I like those strategies more than going for Cole  
UConn4523 : 11/18/2019 12:02 pm : link
.
RE: A Lindor/Torres  
Giantsfan79 : 11/18/2019 12:03 pm : link
In comment 14682526 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
middle infield would be awesome to watch.


Both are certainly on the Hall of Fame track. They could be a historic duo.
The pitching coach  
JPinstripes : 11/18/2019 12:06 pm : link
switch from Larry to Blake is very telling when you read the details on Blakes resume. Blake will try to emulate what he did in Clevland and develop and manage the talented young arms, which NYY has plenty of.

I don't see a big spend in FA for a top guy, including a Wheeler type.
RE: The pitching coach  
UConn4523 : 11/18/2019 12:11 pm : link
In comment 14682548 JPinstripes said:
Quote:
switch from Larry to Blake is very telling when you read the details on Blakes resume. Blake will try to emulate what he did in Clevland and develop and manage the talented young arms, which NYY has plenty of.

I don't see a big spend in FA for a top guy, including a Wheeler type.


I agree. I think they will stay the course, add another #3, another BP arm, and will make a big play for Lindor.
Clevinger  
Dave in PA : 11/18/2019 12:12 pm : link
He was excellent this year when he was actually able to play. He’s the kind of top of the rotation tough minded kind of guy this team really needs to get over the hump. He’ll be 29 entering next season so while not at the ideal age, still should have plenty left in the tank to warrant what would certainly take emptying the farm system to obtain him. At this point, I’m ready to go all out to try to win a championship, future ramifications be damned. Trade all those guys for a legit WS contender.
as long as they are spending money  
RasputinPrime : 11/18/2019 12:38 pm : link
i'm on board. It feels like absent injury, next year has to be our year.
I doubt we get Cole  
Ron from Ninerland : 11/18/2019 1:21 pm : link
I can see the Yankees offering him 7 x 38.5 million with an option for an 8th year with a buyout. That will make him the highest paid pitcher in baseball, but I don't think it will be enough. Someone is going to offer him a 10 year deal and Cashman isn't going to go there. We need to be able to develop our own starting pitching the way Houston has. This is something this organization hasn't been able to do for decades and hopefully something Matt Blake can address. Wheeler makes sense. He isn't an ace but he can provide innings. Given the state of baseball, I not sure the Yankees can buy an ace unless someone really wants to come here.
Strasburg is staying in DC  
DCOrange : 11/18/2019 1:40 pm : link
Strasburg is one of the rare athletes these days who has made the city he plays in his home. He and his family seem settled in DC. He's a quiet guy too so I cannot see him in NY. Obviously winning the WS was huge but DC remains a strange baseball city in that quiet guys like Strasburg and Rendon can get paid, win and not have to deal with a lot of other stuff. Rendon has said more than once that he almost never gets recognized around DC. That said, I think Rendon leaves and the Nats give Strasburg that money to stay. I have heard a couple NY reporters talking about Strasburg to the Yankees (I am a Yankees fan) but it makes no sense when you consider the non-baseball stuff.
Strasburg is staying in DC  
DCOrange : 11/18/2019 1:40 pm : link
Strasburg is one of the rare athletes these days who has made the city he plays in his home. He and his family seem settled in DC. He's a quiet guy too so I cannot see him in NY. Obviously winning the WS was huge but DC remains a strange baseball city in that quiet guys like Strasburg and Rendon can get paid, win and not have to deal with a lot of other stuff. Rendon has said more than once that he almost never gets recognized around DC. That said, I think Rendon leaves and the Nats give Strasburg that money to stay. I have heard a couple NY reporters talking about Strasburg to the Yankees (I am a Yankees fan) but it makes no sense when you consider the non-baseball stuff.
They can and may make a competitive offer...  
Dunedin81 : 11/18/2019 1:48 pm : link
but someone else can offer him "stupid money" that we can't and shouldn't match. He is THAT good, with a trajectory that probably has more in common with Scherzer than with any other pitcher at FA in terms of innings, velocity, coming together at the right time, etc etc. But it's awful tough to put 20-25% of the luxury tax into a single guy, especially with the possibility of an arm injury. Yes they can probably go over once (and this might be the year to do it) but their amateur talent acquisition will suffer if they're over that second threshold year in and year out.
DCorange  
jestersdead : 11/18/2019 1:54 pm : link
I can see Strasburg leaving DC and returning back to San Diego
Just not really seeing the "two really strong seasons", Kyle  
Greg from LI : 11/18/2019 1:59 pm : link
Wheeler is a guy who is a special darling of the FIP absolutists. I see a guy who has one dominant half in the second half of last year, and other than that has been maybe slightly above league average.
Jim Bowden thinks...  
Dunedin81 : 11/18/2019 2:01 pm : link
Andujar, Deivi, and Oswald Peraza gets Lindor. Suffice it to say I don't.
RE: Dave TE  
Nine-Tails : 11/18/2019 2:40 pm : link
In comment 14682529 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
said the Indians want Frazier back. So any deal that could involve the Indians will include him.


I’ll drive him myself
Frazier would be a good fit for them...  
Dunedin81 : 11/18/2019 2:46 pm : link
Cleveland media is not going to tear him to shreds the way NY's did (not that he did himself any favors), and he could grow into that role with a 350-400 AB season.
Is Betts a possibility or thats not in plans for yanks  
micky : 11/18/2019 2:47 pm : link
If anything from this offseason, i'd like to see Cole in pinestripes
Boston would never, ever trade Betts to the Yankees  
Greg from LI : 11/18/2019 2:52 pm : link
.
They can have Frazier too  
arniefez : 11/18/2019 3:04 pm : link
The Yankees would be crazy pass on that deal.
RE: They can have Frazier too  
Dunedin81 : 11/18/2019 3:11 pm : link
In comment 14682856 arniefez said:
Quote:
The Yankees would be crazy pass on that deal.


Yeah I don't really think Lindor would be the best use of trade chips, but for that package plus Frazier abso bleeping lutely.
RE: Jim Bowden thinks...  
UConn4523 : 11/18/2019 3:12 pm : link
In comment 14682766 Dunedin81 said:
Quote:
Andujar, Deivi, and Oswald Peraza gets Lindor. Suffice it to say I don't.


Haha, yeah I don't either but sign me the fuck up for that.
RE: RE: Jim Bowden thinks...  
section125 : 11/18/2019 3:17 pm : link
In comment 14682868 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14682766 Dunedin81 said:


Quote:


Andujar, Deivi, and Oswald Peraza gets Lindor. Suffice it to say I don't.



Haha, yeah I don't either but sign me the fuck up for that.


Probably Frazier too.
RE: RE: They can have Frazier too  
Nine-Tails : 11/18/2019 3:53 pm : link
In comment 14682867 Dunedin81 said:
Quote:
In comment 14682856 arniefez said:


Quote:


The Yankees would be crazy pass on that deal.



Yeah I don't really think Lindor would be the best use of trade chips, but for that package plus Frazier abso bleeping lutely.


Lindor would be a great help to the lineup and defense. Have no problem using assets for him especially if we use our strongest asset(money) for cole or strasburg
Lindor, Clevinger  
giants_10_88 : 11/18/2019 3:53 pm : link
and Cole is the dream.
It's the dream, a pipe dream...  
Dunedin81 : 11/18/2019 4:00 pm : link
It's not going to happen. If they bust through the second tier, the likelihood is they're going to endeavor to get below it ASAP, probably next offseason. They're not going to set themselves up to have to pay Lindor and Cole along with everyone else.
Bumping this up as I actually listened to the rest of the podcast  
Matt in SGS : 11/19/2019 8:53 am : link
and there was more news from Dave TE

Yankee related:

- In addition to Lindor and Clevinger, the Yankees are asking the Indians about Shane Bieber, trying to get one of those guys for the package above.

- Yankees have a fallback with Arizona for one of their outfielders for Robbie Ray, who has been a target forever for Cashman

- Yankees see Garcia as a guy similar to Sheffield in that he got exposed a little in AAA, and he will be a reliever more than a starter and they want to move him while he's hot. Dave says that Florial is super overrated at this point

- In a very interesting comment, the Cubs are shopping everyone right now. And there have been discussions of Ellsbury for Yu Darvish. It would be a swap of bad contracts, with the Cubs eating money as well as Ellsbury is off the books after this year.

In Mets/Yankees: When Brodie said that there will be no more personal catchers, that was a shot at Thor. He is hearing that Thor will be traded by the deadline, but if a team comes with a package in the Winter, the Mets could deal him in December. Yankees will come knocking since they tried to get Thor and/or Wheeler last July.

In Mets news- Mets are in on Jackie Bradley Jr. as the Red Sox need to cut back on salary.

In other team info

- Josh Donaldson looking to get paid and could end up in LA with the Dodgers
- Cole might have considered San Francisco, but when they got Kapler he won't go there
- Phillies are in on Cole and Strasburg, but probably won't land either. Will go after MadBum, who could end up in Philly or with the Braves
- Kris Bryant from the Cubs is available for a #2 pitcher, but as said above in the Darvish thing, the entire roster is up for discussion in a trade.
- When the Pirates finally get around to hiring a GM and manager, Starling Marte will be available for teams looking for a CF.


oh  
Matt in SGS : 11/19/2019 8:54 am : link
and last tidbit, Jasson Dominguez is the best prospect MLB has seen in over 10 years and he will be in the Bronx in 3 years, similar to Ken Griffey Jr. coming up as a teenager and starting in CF.
I'd do Ellsbury for Darvish in a heartbeat  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 8:57 am : link
Darvish would at least contribute something.
RE: I'd do Ellsbury for Darvish in a heartbeat  
bigbluehoya : 11/19/2019 9:10 am : link
In comment 14683436 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Darvish would at least contribute something.


just to be clear, Greg, this means you're taking on 4 years and $81M of Yu.

versus 1 year and ~$27M (including buyout) on Ells.

RE: oh  
Kyle in NY : 11/19/2019 9:28 am : link
In comment 14683434 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
and last tidbit, Jasson Dominguez is the best prospect MLB has seen in over 10 years and he will be in the Bronx in 3 years, similar to Ken Griffey Jr. coming up as a teenager and starting in CF.


I just fainted
I see the logic of it...  
Dunedin81 : 11/19/2019 10:17 am : link
but I think Cash would rather bite the bullet this offseason rather than add another potential (maybe likely) bad contract that will run for a few more years.
Excuse me?  
arniefez : 11/19/2019 10:59 am : link
Quote:
Jasson Dominguez is the best prospect MLB has seen in over 10 years and he will be in the Bronx in 3 years, similar to Ken Griffey Jr. coming up as a teenager and starting in CF.


Well that would be quite something if true.
RE: oh  
DanMetroMan : 11/19/2019 11:10 am : link
In comment 14683434 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
and last tidbit, Jasson Dominguez is the best prospect MLB has seen in over 10 years and he will be in the Bronx in 3 years, similar to Ken Griffey Jr. coming up as a teenager and starting in CF.


Um. Mike Trout is within the last 10 years so... no.
The scouting reports on Dominguez put him on a level with Trout  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 11:13 am : link
as a prospect, though. Did you see BA's evaluation? 60s and 70s across the board for a 16 year old. Those aren't projections, those are his ratings right now.
RE: The scouting reports on Dominguez put him on a level with Trout  
DanMetroMan : 11/19/2019 11:18 am : link
In comment 14683623 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
as a prospect, though. Did you see BA's evaluation? 60s and 70s across the board for a 16 year old. Those aren't projections, those are his ratings right now.


Greg,
Trout was the #2 prospect in baseball before coming up. Dominguez may end up being incredible but he's not currently viewed as the best prospect in 10 years c'mon. Heck, Harper was viewed as the next Mantle. Strasburg was viewed as a generational talent as a SP, Ohtani, Buxton was viewed as a phenom, Soto, Acuna. There have been some ridiculously highly regarded prospects over the past 10 years.
Trout  
DanMetroMan : 11/19/2019 11:22 am : link
at 17 years old... .352/.419/.486. .918 OPS as an 18 year old with 47 extra base hits, 56 steals and 73 walks.
Vladdy, Acuna, and Wander Franco...  
Dunedin81 : 11/19/2019 11:24 am : link
were the best in the last couple years (Soto had hype but not QUITE on that level). Trout and Harper before that. To be in that conversation would be incredible in its own right, Dominguez does not need to be more than that (hell, he doesn't even have to be that).
Shouldn't you be more concerned about your manager being suspended  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 11:27 am : link
for being the mastermind of an elaborate cheating operation than Yankees prospects, anyway?
Yeah  
DanMetroMan : 11/19/2019 11:28 am : link
I'm really being a Yankee hater by suggesting he might not considered the best prospect in 10 years.
Rankings are different than comparisons  
Phil in LA : 11/19/2019 11:47 am : link
but the only to people I have seen Dominguez compared to are Trout and Mantle. (this by variious scouts( So, I don't where he's ranked.
RE: oh  
MM_in_NYC : 11/19/2019 11:51 am : link
In comment 14683434 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
and last tidbit, Jasson Dominguez is the best prospect MLB has seen in over 10 years and he will be in the Bronx in 3 years, similar to Ken Griffey Jr. coming up as a teenager and starting in CF.


this is fun to hear!
RE: RE: oh  
Matt in SGS : 11/19/2019 12:08 pm : link
In comment 14683619 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 14683434 Matt in SGS said:


Quote:


and last tidbit, Jasson Dominguez is the best prospect MLB has seen in over 10 years and he will be in the Bronx in 3 years, similar to Ken Griffey Jr. coming up as a teenager and starting in CF.



Um. Mike Trout is within the last 10 years so... no.


Dan, This is from Dave TE and other scouts he's talked with. Said he's the next Mike Trout actually, but the comp of coming up as a teenager was like Griffey Jr. and Soto.
Let’s see Dominguez hit state-side first before anointing him.  
Jim in Hoboken : 11/19/2019 12:12 pm : link
He’s already developed through the upper body, much like Wander Franco, though so I don’t know if you can project him like a normal 16-yo.

We did see the entire 2014 IFA class flame out, there are no sure things when it comes to Latin kids, no matter how perfect they seem on paper. Granted, Dominguez is head and shoulders above them, but you just never know.

The last time we signed a top ranked amateur and have him actually contribute, it was Sanchez, and it took him what, 5-6 years?
Yanks have to get their 40 set by tomorrow  
Phil in LA : 11/19/2019 12:29 pm : link
so, we'll probably see a trade or two today.
Part of the thing with Dominguez is how complete a player he is  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 12:37 pm : link
Legit 5 tools - runs like the wind, powerful arm, could play anywhere on the field (they're making him a CF), hits for both contact and power. He's got a Mantle-type build and is not thought to have the body type to grow out of his youthful athleticism. Some of those super prospects were more heavily shaded towards the bat for their potential.
The switch hitting  
Phil in LA : 11/19/2019 12:47 pm : link
is what makes the Mantle comp so amazing, there've been a lot of switch hitters who aren't Mantle, but people who see him say Mantle.
Like I mentioned, I've seen several comps to Mantle based on body type  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 12:57 pm : link
Same kind of compact, muscular 5'11" frame.
RE: Like I mentioned, I've seen several comps to Mantle based on body type  
section125 : 11/19/2019 1:24 pm : link
In comment 14683737 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Same kind of compact, muscular 5'11" frame.


Mantle was something. I think he only weighed 165/170 when he came up and in 1956 (56 in '56) he only weighed 175/180, iirc from the books I read.
Amazing with all that power he was about the same speed home to first as Willie Wilson of the KC Royals - like 3.5 sec home to 1st.
hmmm  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 2:38 pm : link
I read Mantle's autobiography several times as a kid. I remember him saying that he was skinny when he came up as a teenager, around 170 like you said, but that by the mid to late 50s had filled out to 200.

FWIW, B-R has him listed at 5'11" 195.
BA says we have the second-worst batch...  
Dunedin81 : 11/19/2019 2:42 pm : link
of Rule 5 decisions. Names Deivi, Gil, Medina, Florial, and Yajure as must protects and Nelson as a maybe.
Link - ( New Window )
And looking at his B-R page is always a marvel  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 2:43 pm : link
His basestealing numbers are excellent - 153 steals, only caught 38 times, a percentage of 80%, which is better than Lou Brock's success rate and the same as Vince Coleman and Rickey Henderson. Many fewer attempts, obviously, but as Mantle said when Canseco had his 40/40 season, "If I knew it was such a big deal, I would have done it a few times myself."
RE: BA says we have the second-worst batch...  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 2:45 pm : link
In comment 14683874 Dunedin81 said:
Quote:
of Rule 5 decisions. Names Deivi, Gil, Medina, Florial, and Yajure as must protects and Nelson as a maybe. Link - ( New Window )


Trades are a-comin'
Hype train  
ManningLobsItBurressAlone : 11/19/2019 8:34 pm : link
is full steam ahead.
Jasson - ( New Window )
RE: hmmm  
section125 : 11/19/2019 9:06 pm : link
In comment 14683870 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I read Mantle's autobiography several times as a kid. I remember him saying that he was skinny when he came up as a teenager, around 170 like you said, but that by the mid to late 50s had filled out to 200.

FWIW, B-R has him listed at 5'11" 195.


In 1956? 195 lbs, I remember that weight in the late 60s. Probably 210 with a few beers downed.

Hey, probably 35-40 years since I read it. And of course, I could/probably am be wrong, I just remember that he seemed awful light to hit that many HRs...
RE: And looking at his B-R page is always a marvel  
section125 : 11/19/2019 9:10 pm : link
In comment 14683879 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
His basestealing numbers are excellent - 153 steals, only caught 38 times, a percentage of 80%, which is better than Lou Brock's success rate and the same as Vince Coleman and Rickey Henderson. Many fewer attempts, obviously, but as Mantle said when Canseco had his 40/40 season, "If I knew it was such a big deal, I would have done it a few times myself."


He could fly, but we all remember(maybe you don't, ha) the destroyed legs and hobbling around in LF until they had to move him to 1B.
RE: Yeah  
djm : 11/19/2019 9:30 pm : link
In comment 14683646 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
I'm really being a Yankee hater by suggesting he might not considered the best prospect in 10 years.


You guys are splitting hairs. Point is he’s a phenom. If he isn’t the best prospect he’s certainly one of the best. Works for me.
djm  
Bill2 : 11/20/2019 7:10 am : link
What?

You are going to bring a common sense perspective?

I don't know. Mods catch you and its curtains for djm.

On a serious note, hope you are well

I remember when Bobby Murcer was gonna be the next Mantle  
Milton : 11/20/2019 7:41 am : link
He wasn't.
RE: hmmm  
Milton : 11/20/2019 7:50 am : link
In comment 14683870 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I read Mantle's autobiography several times as a kid. I remember him saying that he was skinny when he came up as a teenager, around 170 like you said, but that by the mid to late 50s had filled out to 200.

FWIW, B-R has him listed at 5'11" 195.
Just remember that in the mid to late 50s, offensive lineman were 230-250lbs. 5'11" 195lbs was a lot bigger then than it is now.
Milton  
Bill2 : 11/20/2019 8:07 am : link
and it was a dead dead ball thrown off a higher mound.

Im sure we agree that endless possible dissective era to era comparisons are going to go in circles.

Mantle was a great baseball player. Not the greatest, but easily within the top 25 to ever play the now more than a century old game
What's really amazing to me is Mays and Mantle were the same age  
Greg from LI : 11/20/2019 8:14 am : link
Imagine if a Mike Trout clone broke in at the same time as Trout.
RE: I remember when Bobby Murcer was gonna be the next Mantle  
section125 : 11/20/2019 8:15 am : link
In comment 14684323 Milton said:
Quote:
He wasn't.


And Tom Tresh, etc.
Well, a lot of that Murcer-Mantle comparison was just because  
Greg from LI : 11/20/2019 9:05 am : link
they were both from Oklahoma.

Murcer was a good player, though, who had two legitimately great seasons for them in 1971-72.
Primer on Rule 5 decisions...  
Dunedin81 : 11/20/2019 9:15 am : link
a lot of tough choices. Bear in mind carrying a full roster will necessitate new decisions if and when they sign people.
Link - ( New Window )
I think the Yanks should do what Cleveland di almost a generation  
Jay in Toronto : 11/20/2019 9:19 am : link
ago (I think). They should lock up their young guys (Judge, Torres) as the # 1 priority.
RE: I remember when Bobby Murcer was gonna be the next Mantle  
Ron from Ninerland : 11/20/2019 9:19 am : link
In comment 14684323 Milton said:
Quote:
He wasn't.
Really ? I don't remember that. Murcer was a fine player, but I don't recall anyone ever saying he was the next Mantle. He wasn't even considered their best offensive player at the time, Roy White was.
with the caveat that I wasn't even born yet....  
Greg from LI : 11/20/2019 9:27 am : link
When Murcer was a teenaged prospect, he was promoted by the media as Mantle's replacement who was a lot like him - Oklahaoma kid, played center, had speed and power. I'm not sure anyone predicted he'd be a player on Mantle's level, but he was hyped as a future star.

Roy White actually had a really underrated career and was a very good player, but he never produced a season close to Murcer's '71-72. White even had an excellent 1971, hitting .292/.388/.469......but Murcer hit .331/.427/.543.
RE: RE: I remember when Bobby Murcer was gonna be the next Mantle  
Jay in Toronto : 11/20/2019 9:34 am : link
In comment 14684420 Ron from Ninerland said:
Quote:
In comment 14684323 Milton said:


Quote:


He wasn't.

Really ? I don't remember that. Murcer was a fine player, but I don't recall anyone ever saying he was the next Mantle. He wasn't even considered their best offensive player at the time, Roy White was.


Actually it was Ross Moschitto (sp?)
RE: with the caveat that I wasn't even born yet....  
section125 : 11/20/2019 9:38 am : link
In comment 14684433 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
When Murcer was a teenaged prospect, he was promoted by the media as Mantle's replacement who was a lot like him - Oklahaoma kid, played center, had speed and power. I'm not sure anyone predicted he'd be a player on Mantle's level, but he was hyped as a future star.

Roy White actually had a really underrated career and was a very good player, but he never produced a season close to Murcer's '71-72. White even had an excellent 1971, hitting .292/.388/.469......but Murcer hit .331/.427/.543.


Greg is 100% correct as far as the hype. I was there, I remember it. It is also why I brought up Tom Tresh (hey he was a failed SS just like Mickey) and wore #6(IIRC) just like Mickey.
I can't comment on the hype when Murcer was 16  
Ron from Ninerland : 11/20/2019 12:06 pm : link
Although Mantle was a switch hitter and much faster than Murcer its entirely possible that Murcer was hyped as the next Mantle before he got to the majors. Just as every kid who can throw 90 is the next Mariano, just as every kid who can hit the other way and flash leather is the next Trout and every kid that can fly down the base paths is the next Ricky Henderson.

I was there when Murcer was in his prime. Nobody thought he'd be the next Mickey Mantle. He had good power in an era in which pitching dominated and he played for a power starved team. He was a very good but not great center fielder, he had good but not great speed and although he was a home run threat he didn't hit for great average. Both Roy White and Danny Cater hit for higher average. Also comparing Murcer to Tom Tresh is ridiculous. Tresh came up in 1962 and was gone by the time Murcer came up in 1969.
Correction to the previous post  
Ron from Ninerland : 11/20/2019 12:17 pm : link
In 1971 Murcer did have a much higher batting average than Roy White and did have a somewhat higher lifetime BA than Roy White ( including his years in the NL ). I stand my my original premise. Once Murcer came to the majors he was never considered a successor to Mickey Mantle, he was not compared to Mickey Mantle and other than the fact that they were both center fielders, he was not the same type of player as Mickey Mantle.
a friend said  
AndyMilligan : 11/20/2019 12:21 pm : link
he heard there could be a package of Lindor + Kluber. Anybody else seeing this? Can't find anything on it.
Gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there, Ron  
Greg from LI : 11/20/2019 12:29 pm : link
From Phil Pepe's eulogy for Murcer at YES Network:

Quote:
As a player, Bobby Murcer never quite reached the lofty heights predicted for him. He was damned by comparisons to Mickey Mantle — both were born in Oklahoma, both were signed as shortstops, both were converted to center field.

When Murcer joined the Yankees, the team's Public Relations Department seized upon those similarities and floated predictions that Murcer would become "another Mickey Mantle." But Murcer never could live up to those comparisons to one of the game's greats. Nobody could.


From the NYT eulogy:

Quote:
When he made his Yankee debut in September 1965 as a teenage shortstop, Murcer evoked images in the press of a young Mantle. Murcer batted left-handed while Mantle was a switch-hitter, but both were Oklahomans, both had been signed by the Yankee scout Tom Greenwade, both possessed speed on the bases, and both had played at shortstop in the minor leagues.


This one, from the Daily News, mentions both Tresh and Murcer:

Quote:
Like every one of the “future Mantles” on this list, Bobby Murcer couldn’t fill the expectations, either. But Murcer, like Mantle, was born in Oklahoma, signed as a shortstop, and converted to center field before reaching the show, so he couldn’t avoid the unfair comparison. Even still, he came closer than anyone to filling the role.

all the "next Mantles" - ( New Window )
RE: a friend said  
bigbluehoya : 11/20/2019 12:35 pm : link
In comment 14684691 AndyMilligan said:
Quote:
he heard there could be a package of Lindor + Kluber. Anybody else seeing this? Can't find anything on it.


This wouldn't shock me. Cleveland faces real financial constraints. If adding a 33 year old Kluber coming off of a lost season helps to maximize the haul they get from moving a cornerstone piece like Lindor, I don't think they get hesitate to do it.

Once you're in a place where (believe that) your best interests involve moving a player of Lindor's caliber, parting with a mid-30s SP who's really good but has let you down in some big spots is almost a logical next step.
Before the Yanks moved to Shea  
Phil in LA : 11/20/2019 12:44 pm : link
Murcer had 3 or 4 seasons that were really Mantle seasons. He was a great player in an extreme pitchers era, and even with the bounce around and return, he was better than some guys in the HoF.
Mantle's problem was  
Phil in LA : 11/20/2019 12:46 pm : link
that Bill Dickey, or someone, had taught him to top hand the ball to hit it over the wall. When he finally got back to the Yanks, Charlie Lau said, "Why are you smothering the baseball." Murcer stopped top handing and was great again.
Phil's right  
dune69 : 11/20/2019 12:49 pm : link
particularly around '71 to '73, Murcer looked like he could be the second coming of Mantle. However, not many have filled those shoes.
Imo, Murcer never looked like a talent who could equal Mantle.  
yatqb : 11/20/2019 12:54 pm : link
Not as much speed or power, not as much talent. A very solid player, the best on our team, but not close to the Mick.
yeah, like I said earlier  
Greg from LI : 11/20/2019 12:57 pm : link
Murcer was legitimately great in 1971 and 1972.

If you want to be reminded how screwy awards voting in baseball used to be, look at the 1971 MVP vote. Murcer hit .331/.427/.543 yet only finished 8th in the MVP voting behind....Freddie Patek.
Any moves relative to Rule 5 today?  
Del Shofner : 11/20/2019 5:05 pm : link
I expected to see a trade or two by the Yanks, even if minor.
you may have already seen this  
Greg from LI : 11/20/2019 5:17 pm : link
But this clip of Jasson Dominguez taking BP, man, his hits sound like rifle shots.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: you may have already seen this  
dune69 : 11/20/2019 5:41 pm : link
In comment 14684988 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But this clip of Jasson Dominguez taking BP, man, his hits sound like rifle shots. Link - ( New Window )


Good vid. He has a strong upper body (for a 16 yo) planted on top of runner's legs. Hopefully he has the maturity to handle to heap of expectations already being thrown his way. I read he likes to work on his game so this is a start.
Lou Clinton  
Lurts : 11/20/2019 7:07 pm : link
Ray Barker.

Bound for Cooperstown.
RE: Correction to the previous post  
section125 : 11/20/2019 7:38 pm : link
In comment 14684686 Ron from Ninerland said:
Quote:
In 1971 Murcer did have a much higher batting average than Roy White and did have a somewhat higher lifetime BA than Roy White ( including his years in the NL ). I stand my my original premise. Once Murcer came to the majors he was never considered a successor to Mickey Mantle, he was not compared to Mickey Mantle and other than the fact that they were both center fielders, he was not the same type of player as Mickey Mantle.


Ron, with all due respect, Murcer was absolutely hyped as the next Mickey Mantle. Was it before and just as he got to the Bronx? Yes.
Was it after he did get to the Bronx and everyone saw him? No.
But he absolutely and positively(as was Tommy Tresh) hyped as the next Mickey Mantle.

You are right, he was not the player in any respect that Mickey was. There is not one thing, except maybe personal integrity, that he was better at than Mickey. But that does not mean that the Yanks did not hype Bobby as the next Mickey Mantle.
RE: Any moves relative to Rule 5 today?  
Del Shofner : 11/20/2019 7:44 pm : link
In comment 14684970 Del Shofner said:
Quote:
I expected to see a trade or two by the Yanks, even if minor.


hmm - I see 8 pm ET is the deadline so maybe yet to come this evening.
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