Jim Schwartz is reported to have never gotten an interview as was planned with the Giants two years ago after the Eagles, with him as the Defense Coordinator, won the Super Bowl. The Philadelphia Inquirerer report is that:
"Schwartz has mostly avoided the topic when it’s been broached by reporters. Most Super Bowl-winning coordinators are hot commodities. Frank Reich wasn’t considered top guy material by many, but when Patriots offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels bailed on the Colts post-Super Bowl, the former Eagles offensive coordinator was subbed in and the rest is history.
But Schwartz has been a harder sell. He was set to meet with the New York Giants two offseasons ago, but the interview was canceled because the Giants came to learn that he would want some personnel authority, two NFL sources said." |
The point of this is not that Jim Schwartz would have been a great coach, noting that his personality can be a problem despite his coaching ability, but that the Giants' front office has a "delegation of powers" structure that will prevent some/many good head coaches from being considered or hired, such as those requiring "some personnel authority."
Link: https://www.inquirer.com/sports/eagles-jim-schwartz-defensive-coordinator-doug-pederson-chris-long-bill-belichick-20191116.html
Jim Schwartz’s sway within the Eagles is unparalleled for a coordinator | Jeff McLane - (
New Window )
But the organizational structure of the NYG on the football operations side is pretty obviously sub-optimal.
and that sums up the disaster that has been giants decision making... not that schwartz is the holy grail but that they dont like change
But the organizational structure of the NYG on the football operations side is pretty obviously sub-optimal.
Yup. I think we can all agree we don’t wish we gave Schwartz any control of personal as part of hiring him...but this will always be a road block for some of the top candidates we do wish would be considered.
Many of us contemplate the pipe dream of finding a way to bring Belichick
home to the Giants to finish his career. We also know there’s no chance it ever happens if he can’t control personnel.
Probably no chance with him regardless, but the point remains.
Based on what?
MARA MUST GO
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where we are now.
Based on what?
based on where we are now lol
Is that a Gettelman issue? It sounds like most GM's want to be authoritative when it comes to making personnel decisions. And that's something that's either granted to them in the hiring process, or it isn't.
I think its fair to say our next GM, whoever it is (and most of the candidates) will ask for the same power.
This to me is a Giants issue, not specifically a DG issue.
BUT
You bring people in to hear different perspectives on your team, how different voices wold address things. Players, weaknesses, strengths etc...
The Giants seems to want to only hear their own voice. It's a problem.
Belichcik gets to make his calls and Pete Carroll as well but other recent champs did it more like us - Philly and Denver come to mind. It's about getting the right guys in the right roles IMO not the structure.
But the organizational structure of the NYG on the football operations side is pretty obviously sub-optimal.
The GM and coach structure most NFL teams have is not ideal, unless they are completely in lock step. Just imagine the dysfunction with the different philosophies of Reese and Coughlin.
This is nothing new. Most teams have the GM make the final decision. From what I've read, the HC and staff do have input and suggest players that they all hash out.
Not many coaches can handle both jobs. BB is an exception. TC sucked at it in Jax. There is a reason teams set up the FO with GM as the final word....
This could be damning if it's an indication that a coach has no input into the process under Gettleman, or it could be nothing if Schwarz is the kind of guy who basically wants to be Belichik and have complete control over all roster decisions.
there's a sliding scale between minimal and overwhelming say, and that can be spun anyway you want it.
An authoritarian coach may want maximum, pretty much final, say and when the Giants say no, anyone with an agenda can point and claim the Giants don't let the coach acquire the players he wants.
It's pretty obvious the Giants make these decisions as a group, including the HC.
Absolutely, that might scare away the ones who want to be closer to being both GM and HC. But it's a different argument as to whether that model is the most productive.
For the right candidate, I'd bet the Giants would give a bit.
Agree.
This is nothing new. Most teams have the GM make the final decision. From what I've read, the HC and staff do have input and suggest players that they all hash out.
Not many coaches can handle both jobs. BB is an exception. TC sucked at it in Jax. There is a reason teams set up the FO with GM as the final word....
Schwartz is a really good defensive mind. But Shurmurs a really good QB developer. Not sure we missed out on Schwartz, and I wanted a defensive minded coach and was for getting Schwartz at the time.
I think this is true. If the Giants insist on keeping DG then it will limit their "big game" HC hunting this off season. Saban, Cowher or BB ain't coming here if they aren't given complete roster control.
However, Jim Schwartz isn't the kind of HC you just hand over the reigns to.
You love to harp on Shurmur for being a loser - Schwartz is 29-52 all time...not sure he's the answer either.
Remember, we hired Shurmur one day after Schwartz handed him his lunch in the NFC Championship game. I never understood why we did that.
I guess this is right, but man I would like to have Schwartz coach our team. His attention to detail looks really good. The main thing about our last two coaches is that they do not seem that smart to me. Schwartz seems to be smart and pays attention to the details. But, yeah, I am not handing over the personnel to him and even if you look in that article which is largely complimentary his personnel evaluations have been iffy at best
but that one time where he tried to fight harbaugh on the field at the end of the game was awesome.
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input into personnel decisions 35 years ago. He used to fight with George Young all the time. He even argued with the GM in New England.
This is nothing new. Most teams have the GM make the final decision. From what I've read, the HC and staff do have input and suggest players that they all hash out.
Not many coaches can handle both jobs. BB is an exception. TC sucked at it in Jax. There is a reason teams set up the FO with GM as the final word....
Except the GM doesn't have the final say- here, the owners do, and since 2012 or so, they have exercised their prerogative. That is the "Giants Way". The reason Gettleman is even here is that he is willing to go along with it. They don't want any HC upsetting the apple cart.
That is complete bullshit and you know it. Every owner has final say if they want it. They own the effin team, so of course they can take whichever player that is available. But if you seriously think that DG is only here so that Mara and Tisch can make finale personnel decisions you are a fool. I usually dismiss most of your posts without comment for sheer stupidity, but this takes the cake. Freakin DG got fired for disregarding Richardson down in Charlotte over Olsen and you think he is going to kowtow to the Giants owners?
Interestingly enough - none of those teams hired Schwartz that year...the Super Bowl winning defensive coordinator - nor has he had a HC gig since.
That probably speaks more to Schwartz as a coaching candidate than anything else.
but that one time where he tried to fight harbaugh on the field at the end of the game was awesome.
That's some douche on douche crime right there.
Again, coaches' job is to coach...GM's job is to get the players for the coach to succeed. There is no one hard and fast rule for any team in the NFL.
Hell, Dallas would still suck if they hadn't finally convinced Jerruh to draft players based on their scouting plus they finally hired good scouting and personnel staff. Where the Giants are bad, right now, is in the open market. Gettleman's FA acquisitions have not been very good but, so far, his drafts have been.
Isn't everyone bitching about our current coach who also had a losing record as an HC?
We currently start more rookies than any other team in the NFL, let's stop retreading coaches and find a hungry young coach who has a proven record of building winning teams.
ding ding
Even the last two SB teams, you have to acknowledge those are two titles won in an era where there are few dominant teams, and arguably easier to win it all.
The days of TC are closing in on ten years in the rear view. This entire franchise should be self-scouting better than it has been.
And people find fault with the Giants in this situation? You people have lost your heads.
IMO - It is critical that they blend together. IMO You cannot have a hard line. The coach should have a say in player acquisition - in some cases the final say.
The GM should have input into who plays, in some cases they may have the final say.
In the end, it comes down to maintaining a good working relationship between the GM and the HC. Hopefully, there is a general alignment of philosophy and mutual trust and respect.
Remember, we hired Shurmur one day after Schwartz handed him his lunch in the NFC Championship game. I never understood why we did that.
His game awareness in the super bowl? That game was 41-33. Was there even a punt? Are you even being serious here?
Shurmur - 17–42 (.288) as a Head Coach
Schwartz - 29–52 (.358) as a Head Coach
This is just another confirmation of the same thing.
Focus on the big picture people. The Giants have been left behind by the rest of the NFL like its 1973 all over again.
That's the problem and how you wound up with Shurmur and Gettleman.
This is just another confirmation of the same thing.
Focus on the big picture people. The Giants have been left behind by the rest of the NFL like its 1973 all over again.
That's the problem and how you wound up with Shurmur and Gettleman.
A fourth hand story on sports radio is not the same thing as telling a loser douche like Schwartz to pound sand when he demands total control.
Up 38-33 with 2 minutes left and NE getting the ball, Schwartz knew the Eagles could win the Super Bowl if one of two things happened:
1. Philly forced a turnover
2. NE scored quickly enough to let Foles back on the field with time to drive for the win
Schwartz knew Belichick wouldn't fuck up the clock management as Brady marched down the field for the winning TD, so he went all out after Brady. NFL Films picked up what he said to Pederson: "Either we're going to make a play or you're going to get the ball back with time to score."
Now this decision making calculus might seem obvious to anyone that's played Madden, but we have seen numerous examples around the league (and several including our horrendous coach) where coaches do not even enter into this level of game management.
Schwartz wasn't the head coach. He was the DC in the biggest game of his life, and he knew how to manage the game. That already makes him a better head coach candidate than Shurmur, who would fuck up a cup of coffee and then blame his rookie QB for it.
And there will always be mistakes along the way, as there have been here.
Do they still use rotary phones and Beta VCRs at the Giants' offices?
And people find fault with the Giants in this situation? You people have lost your heads.
Someone could start a thread talking about hiring Herm Edwards and people would find a way to shit on the team for it.
It's madness.
The horse is dead and the drum is on its 1,546 skin and some of these guys still act like they have ground-breaking insight to share.
What is the average tenure of an NFL GM?
NY Giants GM?
Giant's ownership is going to give him at least 5 years.
Is what it is.
After next year the book on his first draft will plainly evident. More importantly after next year we will know enough about Daniel Jones.
If Daniel Jones does not develop into what we expect him to, I think DG will be on the hot seat.
That said, I think the problem is higher than DG.
I wish they would sell the team to Bezos.
It doesn't matter who they draft or who they sign. There's only one real story that matters with this franchise.
Now that they've all been jettisoned the "story" is the GM and Coach.
LOL
Now that they've all been jettisoned the "story" is the GM and Coach.
LOL
Wrong again.
The GM and coach are not the story. They suck at their jobs, but they're not the story.
Do holdover position coaches get to do as they see fit (if the think it fits those concepts) even if what they are doing doesn't match the coordinators plans? That's likely not the case. Sorry.
Hope not on both in this context.
Sometimes I wonder if the Giants were heading for the type of pain we've experienced since 2013 after the 2003 season but for the fact that someone in Jints Central made the call that the team was never winning anything with Fassel and Collins at the helm and the Giants lucked into TC and were aggressive enough to get Eli- and the rest is history.
Right now there is no one with the TC resume and connections to the Giants who is going to walk through the door similar to 2004 and fix this team unless Sean Payton or Bill somehow come free. Outside of that, it's going to take a little creativity and leap of faith from ownership to change the fortune of the franchise.
Hopefully there is a head coach who can be paired with a potentially elite qb to turn this thing around.
What is the average tenure of an NFL GM?
NY Giants GM?
Giant's ownership is going to give him at least 5 years.
Is what it is.
After next year the book on his first draft will plainly evident. More importantly after next year we will know enough about Daniel Jones.
If Daniel Jones does not develop into what we expect him to, I think DG will be on the hot seat.
That said, I think the problem is higher than DG.
I wish they would sell the team to Bezos.
You bring up a good point. Everyone after 1 year and 2 wins are proclaiming Jones our replacement for Eli because they hand picked him from Cutliffe. He could easily become Mark Sanchez II. We are already f'ing up Barkley.
DEAD F**KING LAST.
10-32.
We have entered the 1973-1980 portion of the Sons of Wellington lost weekend.
But all is well. Carry on.
DEAD F**KING LAST.
10-32.
We have entered the 1973-1980 portion of the Sons of Wellington lost weekend.
But all is well. Carry on.
Excellent point. Some on here fail to see that, it's a mess of a franchise.
It is too much SUCK.
It sucks to suck.
You need more than 1.75 years to fairly and accurately judge a GM. The board wants to tar, feather and set him on fire. Much of it is based on a decision he made 2 years ago that they do not approve of. Since then, non stop criticism. I didn't even want Barkley but have come to support the pick because of the tools that can't keep whining about it. The rhetoric is so distasteful that I did not want myself to be counted among them even with the benefit anonymity. Did the same with Eli thing, can't be grouped with people who flat out shit on the guy even though they had some salient points.
brought to mind Red Buttons act during celebrity roasts... (person) never got a dinner.
Never got a dinner - ( New Window )
The team is 7-19 with Gettleman as the GM. Let me ask...does this seem like an organization trending in the right direction? Do we get the sense that this team will go 10-6 in 2020? If they go 6-10 next year and Gettleman's three year record is 15-33, do we get to criticize his work then?
Where's the line?
This is nonsense, bullshit, ridiculous speculation. Jesus christ. You, literally, have zero way of knowing this.
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where we are now.
This is nonsense, bullshit, ridiculous speculation. Jesus christ. You, literally, have zero way of knowing this.
I suppose it is. I guess I'm just saying we have nowhere to go but up.
I can understand being upset or frustrated by the Giants not thinking out of the box when it came to hiring a new HC. But, I’m glad they didn’t give full control to a guy who hasn’t proven shit as a HC in the NFL.
However - the same way the Eagles interviewed Coughlin without ever seriously considering hiring him, the Giants should have interviewed Schwartz. They could have picked his brain, as an in the division coach, on where some of their deficiencies were and how they could go about addressing them. That same logic escaped them during the GM search, and they seemed to pay for that dearly there as well.
I can understand being upset or frustrated by the Giants not thinking out of the box when it came to hiring a new HC. But, I’m glad they didn’t give full control to a guy who hasn’t proven shit as a HC in the NFL.
I outlined it above...Schwartz showed more intelligence in the closing moments of the Super Bowl than Shurmur has at any point in his tenure as Giants coach. Schwartz is known to be pretty highly intelligent...neither Shurmur nor Gettleman strike me as that.
You're right...I can't say for certain how well off we'd be with Schwartz or anyone else running the whole show. I do think we know enough to comment on where we currently stand with Shurmur/Gettleman...improving over them is as low a bar as can possibly be set.
:)
Yeah, no.
Go Terps : 12:56 pm : link : reply
where we are now.
We'd be better off with Schwartz except that.....
The GM and coach are not the story. They suck at their jobs, but they're not the story.
So Schwartz can overcome the bad ownership is your take, or do you just have a rambling stream of invective for the team that you don't have the story straight??
I believe Mara is a good guy and wants to win, but he's lost. He's so wrapped up in "this is the way we do things" that he doesn't know which end is up.
That would really break tradition at Jints Central. I'd like to think they would afford Belichick that much control. But who knows.
The system is broken. I say cut out the GM role entirely and cede everything to a HC. Give him a 5 year plan. Let him hire coaches, scouts, capologist, etc. Then the coach can really create an organization in his vision without having to worry about a GM playing playing the role of team traffic cop.
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they’d do it. That said, what coach out there is worthy of that power
That would really break tradition at Jints Central. I'd like to think they would afford Belichick that much control. But who knows.
The system is broken. I say cut out the GM role entirely and cede everything to a HC. Give him a 5 year plan. Let him hire coaches, scouts, capologist, etc. Then the coach can really create an organization in his vision without having to worry about a GM playing playing the role of team traffic cop.
You have a lot of head coaches who can't call plays let alone be the GM.
That would really break tradition at Jints Central. I'd like to think they would afford Belichick that much control. But who knows.
The system is broken. I say cut out the GM role entirely and cede everything to a HC. Give him a 5 year plan. Let him hire coaches, scouts, capologist, etc. Then the coach can really create an organization in his vision without having to worry about a GM playing playing the role of team traffic cop.
You have a lot of head coaches who can't call plays let alone be the GM.
And GM's who can't assemble the right mix of talent and manage the cap.
It's won't be an easy search, but I can think of plenty of candidates I would role the dice with to wear both hats...
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In comment 14683223 bw in dc said:
That would really break tradition at Jints Central. I'd like to think they would afford Belichick that much control. But who knows.
The system is broken. I say cut out the GM role entirely and cede everything to a HC. Give him a 5 year plan. Let him hire coaches, scouts, capologist, etc. Then the coach can really create an organization in his vision without having to worry about a GM playing playing the role of team traffic cop.
You have a lot of head coaches who can't call plays let alone be the GM.
And GM's who can't assemble the right mix of talent and manage the cap.
It's won't be an easy search, but I can think of plenty of candidates I would role the dice with to wear both hats...
Go for it.
Worst coaching mistakes by the Giants - ( New Window )
The team is 7-19 with Gettleman as the GM. Let me ask...does this seem like an organization trending in the right direction? Do we get the sense that this team will go 10-6 in 2020? If they go 6-10 next year and Gettleman's three year record is 15-33, do we get to criticize his work then?
Where's the line?
If you were to force me to judge DG on what I believe to be too short a time line I would say that the "results" are fucking pathetic right now. Right now, it looks like not at least trying to trade back and accumulate picks in 2018 was a mistake. Can't quite stamp myself to it yet but if we don't show drastic improvement next year, it will be true no matter how good Barkley is. The pick wouldn't be the mistake, the mistake was in evaluating the roster. The failure in roster evaluation was what lead them to run to the podium and not even allowing for the opportunity of a trade offer when we were on the clock because DG failed to realize how bad the talent was on the team. They thought we could compete and rebuild, they were WRONG. This would be a strong indictment of one the most important qualities in a GM. Talent evaluation. Solder, Bethea, Stewart, Ogletree you can make arguments for why the were signed but results are questionable. I LOVE the OBJ trade and I love the Vernon trade. I like most of the draft picks but I really need the end of next year to evaluate fairly. So much could happen. If sounds like I am agreeing with you, I'm close, however some of his have superstar potential IMHO, if they breakthrough next year, it changes much about my perception of DG.
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In comment 14683229 Mendenhall64 said:
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In comment 14683223 bw in dc said:
That would really break tradition at Jints Central. I'd like to think they would afford Belichick that much control. But who knows.
The system is broken. I say cut out the GM role entirely and cede everything to a HC. Give him a 5 year plan. Let him hire coaches, scouts, capologist, etc. Then the coach can really create an organization in his vision without having to worry about a GM playing playing the role of team traffic cop.
You have a lot of head coaches who can't call plays let alone be the GM.
And GM's who can't assemble the right mix of talent and manage the cap.
It's won't be an easy search, but I can think of plenty of candidates I would role the dice with to wear both hats...
Go for it.
In case you missed it.
Dave Brown in the run and shoot was meant to be
Remember, we hired Shurmur one day after Schwartz handed him his lunch in the NFC Championship game. I never understood why we did that.
Brady threw corn 541 yards, the pats scored 36 and they didn’t punt. Are you serious?
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I think he's doing a hell of a job in Philly, and his level of game awareness in the Super Bowl win impressed me.
Remember, we hired Shurmur one day after Schwartz handed him his lunch in the NFC Championship game. I never understood why we did that.
Brady threw corn 541 yards, the pats scored 36 and they didn’t punt. Are you serious?
*for. Stupid fat fingers
I'm not just making shit up.
Also, Schwartz is an asshole. This team is overdue for an asshole.
I probably wouldn’t hire him, but I’m not judging him based on yards given up in the SB - that’s nuts. This is a HC job, not a coordinator job.